which turntable or how to convert to balanced phono setup?
Im a total noob with vinyl please bear with me,
I just purchased a b stock Teac PE 505 balanced phono preamp to replace a buggy Gold Note PH5
im looking for a turntable upgrade to run balanced with an mc cart
so aside from those tables that have xlrs outs,
is it just a matter of finding a din to xlr tone arm cable? or is there more to it?
I dont understand the differences between tables like mine that have RCA outs (technics 1200 gr2)
and those with "tone arm" cables
Most tables have RCA out only. It is unusual still to have a balanced out. I have never tried modifying a table for balanced. But I am sure some people here have done it. I'll be interested in hearing what they have to say about the sound quality as a result. If your are new to vinyl, I'm not sure this is where I would start. The key is high quality phono stage, table, arm and cartridge. This would be a side project I would try after being well into the pursuit. |
Most turntables/pickup arms provide inherently balanced outputs although - strictly speaking - they’re really floating. That is, they have a separate + and - for each channel, and a ground that is not connected to either. (That’s the purpose of the separate ground wire.) You need only to connect those outputs to the inputs of a balanced phono preamp to enjoy the benefits of a balanced phono stage. Those benefits include resistance to RFI/EMI and potentially greater gain (or better S/N), depending on the design of the phono stage. To be clear, you won’t get those benefits if you don’t also run your phono stage’s balanced outputs into a balanced line stage. The type of connector is really secondary - there are balanced phono stages that accept only RCA connectors on the inputs. (ARC, for example.) In your case you can use either the RCA or XLR connectors on the Teac PE 505’s inputs and get the same result. |
The Wiring Configuration from Cartridge through to the Connections used for the Tonearm Wires will supply the Balanced Configuration for the Cartridge, to then be attached to the Phonostage. The Turntable itself, does not contribute to a Balanced Set Up. Additionally neither Stereo or Mono are coming from the Turntable, these are embedded into the Hard Medium being the Vinyl LP. For the Noob, think of the Vinyl Replay Source as a Trilogy > TT > TA > Cartridge. There will be those who give the Trilogy an order of Priorities to be considered and worked towards. |
congrats audiocanada w/ pe505! phasemation explained well how to connect rca to balanced phono-amp: https://www.phasemation.com/product/cc-1200r.html https://www.phasemation.com/product/t-550.html |
Unless a problem exists, I would not needlessly complicate a home audio system with xlr. We run out of things to ’improve’ don’t we. I tried xlr, and found it a waste of time, but at least I now know. our home residential systems, the majority of us, we do not have the interference problems that xlr can prevent, nor do we have long cable runs. In fact, I tried 25 lf xlr out from Oppo in video system to preamp in audio system, and had a weird noise, changed to cheap 25 lf rca/rca,worked just fine. Nothing special about that Oppo to my ears, I sold it. I like that (most, not all) xlr connectors snap/lock in so they will not be inadvertently disturbed. I changed all my RCA to locking rca connectors to prevent that problem. One of my components, the signal strength of the xlr out was noticably a bit louder than it’s rca out. I didn’t need it, but some, not all, xlr out are slightly higher signal strength. Another, the strength of the xlr and rca outs seemed identical. I didn't measure, just saying, it might be, and if so, it may or may not be beneficial. xlr may or may not be properly implemented by various OEM, there are standards, so you cannot assume ..... |
Elliott, Is it not the case that your Mac MX110 preamplifier is single-ended, at least the phono stage? If so, it is certainly no wonder that you heard no improvement with an XLR cable; the benefits if any are to be had if and only if the internal circuitry is balanced. In the case of a phono cartridge, it is a balanced device that we commonly use in single-ended mode by grounding one side of its output. If you connect that grounded side instead to the negative phase input of a balanced circuit, you get the benefits of added gain and noise cancellation. I do agree that a noise-free and hum free SE connection using SE components, if you can achieve it, is not noticeably inferior to balanced mode, even when the equipment permits it. The idea that an XLR cable per se gets you into balanced mode is false but it persists. As for using an RCA connection in balanced mode, it can work OK, IF the cable contains two equal conductors, one for SE hot or the positive phase of a balanced signal, and one for SE ground, or the negative phase. The shield if any should NOT be connected to the ground side (which becomes negative phase) at either end, in the case where you want to use an RCA cable in balanced mode. (Some inexpensive RCA cable use the shield to carry ground and otherwise contain only a single conductor, for the hot side.) |
XLR is just a type of connector. Why do you think it’s complicated?
As @lewm suggests above, you probably weren’t using balanced components, so I wouldn’t expect much of a difference. |
I have a PE 505 that I use with TEAC TN 5BB balanced turntable that I have been very happy with. I enjoy not being concerned with hum and other noise problems that used to drive me nuts. Pro-Ject has a variety of balanced turntables beginning at reasonable prices such as Debut Pro B (except I see it supplied with MM cartridge so upgrade to MC is needed). I now have an all-balanced system based on Schiit Gigastack that seems to be a great value and I will certainly try to keep balanced as a priority - piece of mind in avoiding noise and signal loss from long cable runs can be very helpful. I have a non-balanced Pro-Ject turntable that I would also like to convert to balanced if I could find an easy way to do it. |
Sorry to be so pedantic, but it is not the turntable (or the tonearm) that is "balanced". It is the cartridge; any (modern) cartridge can be connected so as to drive the phono stage in balanced mode, if the phono stage has a balanced input. No matter what any manufacturer says, it is a simple matter to convert any cartridge output from SE to balanced. If you can solder, you can do a conversion from SE to balanced yourself. If your tonearm leads are color coded as is typical, then White goes to pin2 of the L channel XLR. Blue goes to pin3 of the L channel XLR. Red goes to pin2 of the R channel XLR, and Green goes to pin3 of the R channel XLR, once you have removed the RCA plugs. But again, there is nothing to be gained unless you have a balanced phono stage. If you plug an XLR into a single-ended stage, pin3, which would carry the negative phase signal in balanced mode, goes to ground inside the SE phono stage, and you are back where you started. |
OP this page has 6 cable options, just click on each box, study the ends of the cables https://pro-jectusa.com/product/connect-it-ds-series-audio-cables/ they show mini xlr, they do not show, but mini-din connectors exist also. This is a VPI junction box, it is to convert a tonearm with mini din to rca and separate ground they make an optional XLR version, look on the same page I had my tonearm re-wired from individually soldered litz wires to use mini-din out from this (silk insulation wore off, hum developed)
to this
Your TT has a separate ground - connector/terminal and a pair of female rca jacks for L+/- and R+/- Note: removable headshells, fixed arms, the headshells/cartridges only have 4 pins/wires, the 5th wire, the isolated ground is for the body of the arm itself to prevent hum. Some TT models come pre-wired with a 5 pin din connector (5 male pins recessed/protected in the arm post most often), the 5th wire is the tonearm body ground
Others have an OEM provided phono cable with connectors and provisions for L+/-; R+/- and a ground for the unit which is actually grounding the tonearm body. A separate din/rca phono cable is simply a 5 pin female connector on one end (goes into the bottom of the arm post); a pair of rca +/- and an integral separate ground wire that is allowed to exit the common cover at both ends for individual connecting to industry standard ground terminals. Construction and material choices and length is based on considerations of both capacitance and inductance. Many times over the years, I have successfully improvised with a separate common green wire for ground and any stereo rca interconnect cable. |
Here we go again. That is mistaken. He doesn’t need an XLR cable at all for balanced operation in his system: |
Except the general consensus is that the XLR connector is inherently superior to the RCA connector, balanced or not. I'm just repeating what I have read on other websites populated by knowledgeable hobbyists. Not to mention that it looks that way to me too. And "he" needs an XLR cable if he is plugging into a balanced phono that offers only XLR inputs. I know there are adapters available but that is not the optimal way to go. I would rather say that an RCA connection is OK in a pinch, in balanced mode, but not the best way to do it. That's only my opinion. |
I’ve seen some really exquisite RCA connectors but I’m inclined to agree with you - the XLR design is better from the get-go.
The OP’s preamp takes has both RCA and XLR connectors on its input. |
Oh, if you want magic you are on the wrong forum, try https://www.themagiciansforum.com On the other hand here are the experiences of some real Teac PE-505 users re the XLR inputs vs the RCA inputs with moving coils -
cc @audiocanada
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Yes, provided your preamp runs balanced into your amplifier. But you'd also be fully balanced if you used RCA connectors into your phono stage. The connectors alone don't define whether the circuit is balanced or not. |
In a typical DIN to RCA cable, the shield would be connected to “ground”, which is also carrying the negative phase of the signal in balanced mode. That’s not a great idea. In a DIN to XLR cable the shield has its own termination isolated from the negative phase. That’s better. Anyway, every balance phono I’m familiar with offers XLR inputs. |
I realize you love ARC, and I’ve figured out that’s why you keep bringing up RCAs, but most cannot afford ARC Reference, and what they do is unusual. Anyway my concern is not with “ground” but with the shield that might carry RFI. After my last post I realized the shield can be connected to the middle post in a 5 pin DIN and should not then be connected to the RCAs at all. That’s probably what ARC does. So we’re good. |
No, I mentioned RCA connectors because it was responsive to the OP's question:
I just wanted him to understand that with his Teac phono preamp he'd get the same result whether using RCA or XLR connectors.
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Do you know for a fact that the RCA jacks on the TEAC offer input to the balanced circuit? More likely the RCAs ground the negative phase of a balanced signal inside the chassis and convert to SE operation. That’s what Atma-sphere does with their amplifiers, so those who have SE components upstream can stay SE in the amplifier. |
I've not examined a Teac PE 505. But it's shown as "dual monaural and fully-balanced input/output circuit design" on the manufacturer's page. It would be most odd if it unbalanced the inherently balanced (floating) signal that it gets from a turntable. But I suppose anything is possible. |
That's guesswork on your part. You said you've never heard it. Why do you post speculative brouhaha about something you've never heard. As I posted above actual users of the PE505 have found using their moving coil cartridges the xlr inputs results in significantly audible improvements over the same cartridge into the RCA inputs - contradicting your speculative post above. The Audio Reference phono stage you refer to is quite different to what's being discussed here. Personally, I rate them 3rd class - crass, noisy and fragile compared to top units available today.
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That is the logical fallacy known as the excluded middle: ... the principle of excluded middle states that for every proposition, either this proposition or its negation is true ... Another Latin designation for this law is tertium non datur or "no third [possibility] is given". In classical logic, the law is a tautology.
Would you please tell us about your experience with ARC reference phono stages? I'd be happy to share mine. |
Of course you're running unbalanced if you're using the RCA outputs. But it looks like it's fully balanced when using the RCA inputs and XLR out, at least according to this "review": From the head amplifier to the equalizing amplifier sections to the buffer amplifier section on the final output stage; the PE-505 employs a fully-balanced circuit design throughout all stages ... Even unbalanced signal on the conventional RCA input is converted to the differential processing mode right after the input terminals. (Emphasis added.)
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"Even unbalanced signal on the conventional RCA input is converted to the differential processing mode right after the input terminals. (Emphasis added.)" That would be a neat trick indeed, without a transformer to do the job. I suppose it could be done with an active device, too, but that would be suboptimal, because it requires a processing step in the signal path which would inevitably add distortion however minor. Are you sure the reviewer did not just misunderstand some blurb? The fact that the PE505 is fully balanced does not at all mean that the RCA input jack is not there to receive an unbalanced signal. Like I said, Atma-sphere and probably BAT, both of which companies make only fully balanced preamps and amps, provide that SE input option. The PE505 further offers SE outputs. This is done so as not to alienate potential customers who do not want to convert their whole system to balanced op. Anyway, this is important only to potential buyers of the PE505, of which I am not one. I'm out. |
@lewm, please, with all due respect to you, this is just mistaken. A differential amplifier, which is what the Teac is stated to use, is a type of balanced amplifier. It doesn't use transformers or other active circuitry to be balanced, and is commonly used in audio. Here's an explanation from Paul McGowan that may be helpful: |
What I am talking about, what you say happens, is feeding a differential amplifier with a single-ended signal where you say the SE signal is converted to balanced mode. If you don't do anything with the SE input (transformer input or etc), except hook it up to the balanced input via RCA, then you are driving one half of the balanced circuit (typically the positive phase) with the hot input from the SE source, and the other half of the balanced circuit (typically negative phase) is grounded by virtue of being connected to the ground side of the upstream SE input. It's really not much different from hooking up a phono cartridge in typical SE mode. You would not get the benefit of balanced operation that way. This is even assuming that the RCA input on the TEAC is connected properly to the balanced circuit, rather than being connected so as to drive the balanced circuit in SE mode. You can't create a balanced source by waving your hands over an SE source. Or please tell me what is driving the negative phase of the balanced input, if you are still convinced I am wrong. |
I've never said that because the turntable output isn’t singled-ended. It’s balanced, (floating) and in the Teac then processed by a differential amplifier. I’m puzzled as to why you struggle with this simple concept, or why you’d question that the Teac is "... a fully-balanced circuit design throughout all stages." Did you watch the McGowan video? |
OMG! Please don’t talk down to me. I originally assumed you were referring to the case where you feed a signal from a SE component (NOT a phono cartridge) to a balanced component. For example, a SE phono stage into a balanced linestage. You can’t directly drive a balanced device in balanced mode with an inherently SE device. As we all know, a phono cartridge is inherently a balanced device, so what I wrote does not apply. |
From the beginning, this thread has been about the Teac PE 505 balanced phono preamp. I’ve not spoken about anything other than phono in this thread and here’s what I wrote back on 6/18 - the second comment in this thread: Most turntables/pickup arms provide inherently balanced outputs although - strictly speaking - they’re really floating. That is, they have a separate + and - for each channel, and a ground that is not connected to either. (That’s the purpose of the separate ground wire.) Hopefully you now understand that in the Teac the RCAs do not "ground the negative phase of a balanced signal inside the chassis and convert to SE operation," contrary to your claim. |
The words you quote in italics are of course correct but have nothing whatever to do with the PE505 specifically and prove nothing. However, I finally found the owners manual on line. It is very dumbed down, but if you look at the diagrams on the right hand side of page 9 in the English language section, there is a hint that you are correct. Also, on the page with specs, the gain is not different when you feed the RCAs vs the XLRs. This too suggests you are correct. Note the caveat on page 9 about feeding the balanced inputs from a TT wherein the outputs are grounded to the TT or tonearm. As they say and I said, this negates the balanced operation. |
I thought the same! A component such as the PE 505 really deserves a better manual.
Oh yes, of course, absolutely agreed. I'm glad we were able to clarify this matter for the OP and everyone else, @lewm and I wish you the best. |
@lewm Either I'm misunderstanding this or its incorrect. At no point in our amps does the signal go single-ended. What we do instead with the RCA connection is the center pin connects to pin 2 of the XLR and the RCA ground is pin 1 of the XLR. We then ground pin 3 of the XLR if the RCA is being used instead of the XLR. A differential amplifier, present at the input of all our circuits, then converts a single-ended signal from the RCA to balanced operation. No transformer needed. The differential amplifier doesn't care much if the input is single-ended or balanced, since it simply amplifies what is different between its two inputs. If one side is ground, so be it.
If the circuit and source are true balanced, and if one side of the source is grounded or not will make no difference to the gain if the preamplifier is really balanced. The reason is the same amount of Voltage is applied to the input in either case. So if a phono cartridge has 1mV output, if that 1mV is applied to a balanced circuit via an RCA connectors (so the inverting input of the balanced circuit is not used) the gain will be the same unless the balanced circuit is not differential or having a transformer coupled input. Since the CMRR our our phono section inputs is rather high the signal level at the output of the preamp will be unchanged whether the input is balanced or not. There is a common misconception that a balanced signal will be 6dB more gain but if the source is AES48 compliant that simply is false.
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In gear that really does offer both a SE and a separate balanced input, the gain claimed by the manufacturer is usually quoted as being different for the two types of input, with the balanced circuit gain being higher. Why is that or is it a false claim? In the PE505 owners manual, the data sheet shows the gain is the same via either input type. I took this to mean that cleeds is correct in his assertion that the RCA inputs are hooked up for balanced operation. This can also be seen in a diagram on page 9 where they show not to drive the PE505 with a SE output from a TT, "for best results". The diagram also suggests the "ground" side of the RCA jacks is not connected to audio ground, in other words RCA hot must go to pin2 and RCA ground to pin 3. However, they never come out and say it. On your first point, we are actually in agreement. The SE input is grounded (to pin1) in the case where an SE input is provided, like I did say, and like it is on my Atma-sphere amplifiers, except I am wrong about the need for a transformer or some other device to convert the SE input to balanced. Thank you for the correction. (I’ve never driven my amplifiers from an SE source or using the RCA inputs, but I know the circuit quite well.) Do you know why the owners manual for the PE505 says the XLR inputs are for MC cartridges only? You often quote AES48. What does AES48 say? |
Funnily enough, I just found a good website that talks about AES48. (To read the actual original language, you have to pay AES for the text.). Here.
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@lewm @cleeds I am enjoying the discussion, but according to @pindac earlier in this thread, you are both wrong !!!!!
Isn't science education wonderful these days? |
@lewm Let's assume a transformer coupled balanced input. The signal is applied to either end of the winding of the transformer. Now ground one side without changing anything else. The gain remains the same because the same Voltage is applied. Now if the balanced source is simply two single-ended sources with one out of phase with the other, if you run that single-ended you only use one of the two sources. This method works but is not AES48 compliant. When both sources are being used the signal Voltage is twice as much so there is a 6dB increase. That is not how its supposed to work if you want the most performance out of the balanced connection.
It can mean also that the input is a differential amplifier, such as an opamp. The CMRR (Common Mode Rejection Ratio) is high enough that the opamp won't really care if you drive one input or both. As long as the input signal is the same Voltage either way the output level won't change. IOW the opamp amplifies what is different between its inputs; if one input is at ground its fine with that; the overall gain is the same.
Its a high gain input so can be overloaded with a high output MM cartridge.
AES48 is part of the balanced line standard regime (the other part being the dBm level the source can drive). Essentially its a connection standard; in it we see that the ground circuit (such as the arm tube of a tonearm) is not carrying any signal return (as the shield of an RCA connection might). Instead the balanced line signal is generated entirely with respect to pins 2 and 3 of the XLR connector and carried by the corresponding conductors in the interconnect cable. This means it is possible to have a balanced connection with no shield at all, since ground isn't part of the balanced signal. The shield is there for shielding only and nothing else. There seems to be fair amount of high end audio balanced equipment that is not AES48 compliant. Such equipment usually has dual single-ended outputs with one of the outputs out of phase with the other, but both referencing ground and therefore fully functional if ground is used as a single-ended signal return with one of the two outputs. Put another way a phono cartridge is a balanced source that is AES48 compliant. If it were non-compliant it might have 6 output connections instead of 4, the extra two connections being center taps of each coil (for ground). Its not done that way because a center tap can never be exactly center of the coil and so can significantly degrade CMRR. By allowing it to float CMRR is as ideal as possible.
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Ralph (Atma), thanks for the clear explanation of AES48. Your statement that the XLR inputs on the TEAC offer only MC gain levels makes sense but the owners manual never actually says as much, or maybe I have to re-read it. The device does have selectable gain. Maybe into the XLRs, low gain is not selectable. English translation of Japanese tech jargon is not always the best either. Anyway the OP got his question answered, and I learned something about driving a balanced differential circuit with a SE device. |
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