Who else here is frugal?
hombre" Some expensive things are worth the money. Some aren't. It only requires the intelligence to make the distinction." Value is subjective not objective so you're apparently superior intelligence won't help you in this argument, claim, and assertion. |
There are a few replies in this thread such as from zkidd and michaelg63 that show that the person replying doesn't actually know the definition of frugal. Frugal doesn't mean cheap, it means "not wasteful". Because the value of an item is driven by the market and we can never know the true monetary value of an item other than by its cost (or what someone is willing to pay for it), how do we measure frugality? About the only way is to compare what others have spent with what we are willing to spend for the exact same item. So frugality = was what I spent a deal compared to what others have spent? In that vein, I definitely consider myself frugal, especially in my speaker purchases. I bought used (like new) Magnepan 20.1s for $5500 ($12,000 new) and got a $1000 off the B&W MT-60D (new) to add a sub and surrounds. So I spent $7500 for speakers that would normally cost $15,000 if new and I have both great home theater speakers and great music listening speakers. Since the Maggies have been favorably compared to speakers costing $20,000 or more, some might say I've been even more frugal than the dollars I spent suggest. I also purchased an Emotiva amp to drive the Maggies, and Emotiva gets great reviews in the value category as well. I've always been leary of the kind of person who wants to tell me how much they spent on their system when the game is to save as much as much as I can and get the most I can for my money. |
asvjerry, It was my mistake not to write a thorough explanation, but under "things" I was referring to audio equipment. I thought that original post was solely about that although now I see it could be stretched.What do you call a person who rarely buys.....Things? First, let us define ’Things’, Friend Eric. ( No, I’m not trying to be snotty...just Serious. *S* It is interesting to read about three homes. How do we define "home"? By the way, my name is not Eric. |
winnardt, "So frugality = was what I spent a deal compared to what others have spent?"That would disqualify a person who buys something at full price and keeps it for 40 years from being frugal while would make someone who buys things at 60% usual value weekly for 40 years frugal. You are right, we may have different definitions of frugal in mind and I am not claiming mine is correct. |
As there is no absolute measure of value in audio past a certain point, say about an arbitrary $20-25,000 system (not including the room), there is no relation between price and value. It is akin to a luxury purchase like jewellery, and unlike a car where even the most expensive can point out distinct and verifiable differences. Capitalism is great. It gives a way for people with less than they want, to legally "extract" money from people with more than they need. It's not perfect, but I will take that over the other options. Someone making a $170,000 set of power amplifiers probably has a net worth much lower than someone buying a $170,000 pair of amplifiers. This is a way to even things out and make 2 or more people happy in the process. |
hombre stereophile’s Michael Fremer just reviewed a pair of amps that cost 170,000.00 dollars. You can probably find it on their website now. >>>>>>I suspect he’s had his 👁 👁 on those for a while. Wink wink Is $170,000 the top of the Dart Zeel line? 😳 |
I’m about as frugal as one can get. I still have my first receiver, and use it daily, from 1981. I still use both pairs of speakers, the only ones I’ve ever purchased, from 1985 and 1989. I have 10 turntables, each one was purchased non-working and I repaired and restored them. All 79 of my phono cartridges are vintage that I purchased at estates sales. The 4 receivers I have, are all thrift store purchases that I’m restoring. The McIntosh tube amps I bought for $10 each, non-working, from my local thrift store. The most expensive piece of gear i have, I purchased new in 1981 for $360. I dont get the itch to constantly improve. What I have is all very, very good stuff. The extra gear I have is for gifting to my kids. All told, I have perhaps $1,500 into it. My 4,700 Records were mostly handed down from my parents. |
I’m not sure if I’m “frugal” but I do search out good deals. I feel like if you don’t want to waste $ on this expensive hobby, buy items that you won’t quickly out grow. I’m the type who’ll buy the $750 speakers in order to save $, only to later on take a $200 loss selling the $750 speakers in order to buy the $1000 speakers that I should have just purchased initially. Spend more initially on something that gets you really excited and then hang on to it until your financially comfortable purchasing a definite upgrade. And when you do make a change, research it, research it some more, then wait. When you do get it, it will mean more to you! |
When we speak about passion and hobbies the question makes not so much sense...Interesting question perhaps like many others possible questions... But am I frugal, in love, in music, in passion for books? No... Not at all, I am the contrary of frugal with my passions, but I cannot always be carefree with money if I want to eat tomorrow... Hermit, saint, yogi are frugal and must be ….This is not a virtue at all, only an instrument for their inner work, only love and passion are virtues... And yes if I could, I would immediately buy my Berning ZOTL dreamed amplifier...This is not frugal expanse for me...I will not buy a 170,000 dollars amplifier tough, not because I am frugal, but because I know that true hi-fi is not reducible only to quality of electronic components or price... I am constraint by circonstances to be frugal with my money, not being able to afford dreamed Hi-Fi, except by my homemade tweeks with an under 1000 bucks audio system now... I dont complaint, I dont feel now anymore the urge to upgrade, my system being at his top potential, thanks to homemade solutions...But this is not because I am frugal, this is because I am forced to economic improvised solutions...Indeed even if I dont feel now the urge nor the frustration, being so passionate with sound and music, I would buy other costly Hi-Fi components for sure if I could... Even if it is absolutely not necessary, I would buy them, however my system dont frustrate me at all now...Thanks to my essentials tweaks...But I am passionate, not frugal... Frugality is not my choice nor my dreamed being state...I am not a cheap monk nor a great one...Life is too much a great act, not a cheap one...There is no frugality in passions, and frugality is a quality for great monks, not book lovers, nor music lovers, not lovers... Life is not frugal...Life is an illuminating foolishness say the wise... The saint that gives by love all his possessions is not frugal... I hate frugality... :) |
ivan_nosnibor Thanks for your kind and indulgent word for my rant... If I can add something, i truly respect all people, frugal or not, i hate only the word because the act appear to me, more often than not, like an obsession without love... And imagine this horrible epitaph : " He lives frugally and die frugally" ... Tthis is an horrible death poem, and even for a Saint this is not beautiful, except for a not so loving monk perhaps?... Know yourself and be it to the end, passionately ... |
I have always been exceptionally frugal. I think I inherited the trait and as the work of Thomas Stanley revealed, it’s good trait to cultivate. Frugal does not mean cheap, however, and frugality allows for indulgences. As a result, my system looks neither cheap nor frugal. |
Anybody remember the LiL rag The Sensible Sound its spirit is still around...Schitt, Vandersteen, Maggie, Grado, VPI, Rogue, Van Alstine.... really the list is endless, very very possible to build a killer musically rewarding illusion generator for not too much coin :-) today and some thoughts on priority, of course viewed from the rear view mirror i led my life career and otherwise like Neil said “ it’s better to burn out than it is to rust “ I perhaps burned it bit to feverantly ,,,, just a thought as I stare out over the Pacific |
If frugality is a consequence of wise choices, this is good... If frugality is a goal I dont think so... What is good to cultivate is the art of wise choices, frugal or not....What is a wise choice for a passionate man does not always appear frugal to his friend...Passion or love must superseded frugality in some way or another in life... And yes many are frugal without being cheap, but it is better to be not frugal in ALL aspect of life, and that has motivated my rant about the word... My best to you ... I apologize for these many words of mine and sometimes yes we must perhaps be frugal with words... :) |
"If I can add something, i truly respect all people, frugal or not, i hate only the word because the act appear to me, more often than not, like an obsession without love..." Yes, that is what I took you to mean. To remember to be more liberal with the love for my passions and less so with whatever real-world circumstances that may act at times to limit my embrace of them - that's perhaps all I really need. What good is slavish devotion to a distant goal if it only serves to crush the love of our passions into the dirt in the meantime. Especially when it need not be so. "Know yourself and be it to the end, passionately …" Amen to that. |
@audiozen.... *S* Thank You. I do try to be straightforward and honest in my own 'bent' sort of way. ;) And I appreciate your comments on 'sounding like we're in similar places'.... Except my 'day job' is spending other people's $ on making 'things' for their children, grandkids...and those of total strangers that I will never meet. Some are moved to F'book us to tell us that what we do creates smiles and enjoyment for both their kids and them. THAT...makes my RT work the best employment I've ever had and likely will. *VBS* Night 'work' is 'recoup' time, and spending some on my 'take' on audio and the pursuit of 'that which intrigues'. It's very '180 out' on the daytime activities, but both require a 'stretch' that helps to keep the wetware from becoming cold oatmeal.... ;) I'm 'frugal' in the sense of putting $'s where I can 'follow my muse', entertain a notion, and/or just improve on what's caught my curiosity for the past decade (or 2, at this point...). It's an obscure corner of 'audioism', to be sure.... But...it keeps me out of bars, and only gets me in trouble with the spouse periodically. *L* And I get to 'chat up' with y'all at times. *S* ...and sometimes Just Watch as the periodic 'Topic That Should Not Be Brought Up' heads off into 'Multi-Page Heights' without a road map....*L* Now...That's Entertainment! *LOL* ;) |
I bought a 1986 Ferrari Mondial for $32k and it served as my daily driver for two years and 15,000 miles and never towed in. I had it towed to my local wrench for a clutch rebuild. He had never touched a Ferrari before and had himself a blast! He replaced the CV joints as well. That is one frugal way to get a genuine Ferrari experience! I took it to a speed only 1/2 mile drag where Lambos were over 200mph and got lots of attention. Only got 115 mph but learned the 8,000 rpm engine is for theatrics only and to keep mecanics employed rebuilding clutches! My best run was shifting at 6,000 rpm. I always wondered how an 8,000rpm engine could lug up my mountain in third gear. |
While it is true my entire system costs only about 10 dollars, not counting tweaks, I am definitely not (rpt not) frugal. The reason I opted out of the typical audiophile system - my previous all tube Class A headphone amp and the World’s most modded Oppo 103 and Sennheiser HD-600 - was actually due to sound quality. Or at least the expectation of that possibility. That’s right. Sound quality! No more AC house power, no more AC Ground problems, no more power cords, no more interconnects, no more digital cable, no more speaker cables, no more huge transformers, no more fuses. No more pencils, no more books, no more teacher’s dirty looks. 🧐 Now, see if anyone can guess which system sounds better, my all tube Woo Audio + Modded OPPO system + Sennheiser HD-600 or my SONY WALKMAN CD Player + SONY MDR-700v headphones. Yes, I know what you’re thinking, ”Are you out of mind?” |
Geoffkait ,I think you are right about the noise level...If someone dont care about the acoustical difference between headphones and speakers, this is the right track to travel... But an old guy as I am like the acoustical freedom of his speakers also... The good news is I think it is possible, " in the grid", to reach relatively near, not too far behind, your quality "off the grid" system, with many precautions related to vibrations resonance, electrical embedding, and acoustical treatment and some other "tweaks"... I say "near" indeed because for the purity of the sound frequencies, the best speakers will always be most of the times only slightly behind the best headphones; but this acoustical, atmospheric freedom of the sound waves travelling to my body, out of the brain, we must recognize that this is indeed an another world... My best from my past to your future... :) |
I agree that cans can be wonderful, and compared to a custom made listening room, a real cost-saver, but ... Frugality is not about doing without, but doing the best you can with what you have. Lots of us experience our sound system through our bodies and skin, not just our ears. If this is you, cans aren't frugal. They're inadequate. Best, E |
I didn’t say my portable CD headphones system was the result of frugality. That’s the irony of my post. It was the result of avoidance of NOISE and DISTORTION. After all, you really only have three factors involved when you cut to the chase: the signal, noise and distortion. Minimize noise and distortion and you maximize signal. Make sense? So, in my portable system what I am doing without is noise and distortion.😛 There is no substitute for signal to noise + distortion ratio. 🤗 |
geoffkait19,319 posts Like I said you are absolutely right on all counts... I have known already that electrical pollution and noise in the room and house were stupendous unbeknownst to most or underestimated by all...But even for me it is amazing how the lost by this plague has destroyed the potential of my Hi-Fi system...I dont even speak about the other 2 plagues: resonance-vibrations, and acoustical treatment of room... If someone dont want or dont need speakers it is for sure the way to go... Like you said the equation is simple: There is no substitute for signal to noise + distortion ratio. 🤗People must learn that, even those , especially those that will keep their speakers like me... The last experiment I speak about in my thread is a stupendous proof of this … My best to you and all... |
Erik- love the post. As an engineer, we talk about having a design that is “efficient” - getting the most performance out of something without wasting anything. Squeezing the most out of something. So part of designing an efficient widget includes making the item low in cost without compromising its ability to do the task at hand. Notice I say low in cost, not lowest in cost. To do this sort of engineering, requires creativity, and most other engineers (not necessarily end users or consumers) can look at an efficient design and appreciate it. These days, engineers often call such a design “elegant”, as a compliment to how well it does what it is supposed to do. i suspect your definition of frugal in the audio context is quite similar to an elegant or efficient engineering design. Having said that, I have to include that I continue to shop the used CD stores for the $4 CDs, and even frequent a Goodwill that has $1 CDs. Granted these are always hit or miss, but there are many hidden gems . And if there is a CD that I must have, I go to eBay. I suspect three quarters of my CD collection was purchased used. (No vinyl or streaming insults please) |
@glupson...*Oops..* Sorry, that was 'aimed' @erik_squires , but I may have 'miscued'.... Keepin 'virtual identities' straight in the midst of all this hilarity, late at night, burning the last shreds of my vague consciousness into ash..... Pardon. *S* ...anyway..... https://ultimist.com/video/2018/07/21/michael-fremers-listening-room/ ...if you want to see Mike's dZ amps....and a 'listening space' that makes me feel better about mine.... ...and enough Lp's to pave a street....a small street, but....*L* |
“whenever I attend a Symphony Concert I realize that no home system could ever reproduce the sensation of being in a large hall.” we have friends whose seats at the Myerson Symphony Hall in Dallas sport a brass socket embedded in the floor, a socket where the main microphone is placed when recordings are made in that hall. Needless to say that the sound there is wonderful. But, swear to God, I’ve experienced better sound from my home system. Being a dyed-in-the-wool skeptic, I was blown away when that happened - couldn’t believe that it could be possible. After reflecting on it, it dawned on me that the engineers who produced the SACD could shake out the compromises and/or imperfections of the hall. At any rate, it was really an eye opening phenomenon. |
mahgister Like I said you are absolutely right on all counts... I have known already that electrical pollution and noise in the room and house were stupendous unbeknownst to most or underestimated by all...But even for me it is amazing how the lost by this plague has destroyed the potential of my Hi-Fi system...I dont even speak about the other 2 plagues: resonance-vibrations, and acoustical treatment of room... >>>>I wrote almost twenty years ago the primary malady that crystals offer a remedy for is vibration - not (rpt not), as often assumed, RFI. When you assume something you make a fool of me and Uma Thurman. Yes, I know what you’re thinking, “But I’ve used the crystals wherever RF can interfere with the signal - Schumann resonators, near small vacuum tubes, on power supplies, on top of CD players. So the crystals MUST be absorbing RF.” |
Geoffkait, i assume nothing , I know nothing, I only know the results of my experiments... By this last post i just wanted to give to you credit about your minimalistic option for Hi-Fi audio, that’s all... But if you want to speak about crystals, I dont know if crystals works only by vibrations absorption, or by cleaning the EMI noise also... I assume it act on the 2... But I am no scientist, i konw only the results of my experiments and that is not possible for me to justify or extrapolate any scientific explanation for and by this results … Even if i had my own opinion and impressions about that... And what I says implicate only me not you by the way... Then relax when I gives to you credit for your minimalistic option...It is that I am able to recognize when someone is on a right track... But you know what wise men says: " there is many ways that go to heaven"... :) |
@glupson...and I didn't respond to your query re 'homes', which I meant as a 'owned residence'; a single-family house. As opposed to an apartment, condo, or that which one can't 'enhance' without raising ire or some similar crop of irritance..;) Yes, "things" in specific (audio)....I drifted off into generalities, which given the 'frugal' topic effected my comments. It most certainly does so in my overall existence. A small portion of that 'overall' is my audio enhancements to it and within it. Not having a larger portion of 'net income' to devote to 'better' equipment, I could kvetch and be surly about it. Instead, I take it as an challenge. One can start with a raw diamond, and begin to polish it. If you're skilled at such, you end up with...a diamond. Now, if all one has is a more 'common' gemstone....a 'pigs ear' rock, to 'push' the analogy... I think you get my drift. *S* It's more of a feat to actually make the silk purse. Or a lovely stone, desirable for itself rather than 'market value'.... Even stepping aside from the $ dimension, I'll wager that I like my system just as much as you do yours. The 'enhancement' that I pursue is quite different than cables, power conditioners, and other exotica (to me, anyway). The enjoyment is in the pursuit, as it is for pretty much everyone who posts here. And I'm at a point that even the DIY forums I've haunted can't really advise me much further than they have. I thank all who have made observations and suggestions, but I'm now free to follow my muse. And to apply what I've gleaned from there...and what I see here, reading between the lines... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tzf3FHO_Cx0 (wait for it....*S* I like to work to this...) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Ijd_iN9Blk One of his more 'accessible' pieces....and a good woofer workout...;) |
Interesting perspectives. I worry some are what chases newbies away from the hobby- not arguing anyone’s right to hold whatever opinion they wish- only that these things are situational. If your reference is an am radio in the garage a simple $100 receiver and modest speakers could sound like nirvana. The other extreme is if you have $300K in a system, chances are an additional $50K isn’t putting you on the soup lines and may take your breath away. Good for both of those. Although I have some much better quality components- a beat up set of Bose 901’s still bring a smile due to the memories attached to them. Those speakers, along with Malcolm and Angus turned my dorm room into party central 35 years ago. So whatever your budget and situation- enjoy the music and whatever upgrades avail themselves. |
erik_squires OP7I must admit that I am a bit constrained by my lack of fund....If not, I will not be so frugal....I hate to be frugal because it is not my choice....But against bad fortune good heart, I decide to create my audio system at low cost with homemade solutions...I succeed and I love my audio system now...But if I had all money I will do what I do with money, invest it in my passion for books and music and waste a good deal of it probably... What else? I dont like travels, nor money games, I dont enjoy paying women, and I dont like cars …. :) My best wishes for you... |
