hi steve;
the bet would be your transport + a dac of your choosing vs my cd palyer.
taking note of your statement regarding comparing transports, assuming your transport is superior to the laser mechanism in my cd player, the dac section and any mods to my player, i conjecture would be preferable to your (supposedly better ) transport and dac.
thus i have no interest in comparing transports. rather i am interested in one digital source vs another.
if you recall my visits to your rooms at the st tropez, you may recall that our tastes in sound diverge.
so i will spare you a bet that you cannot win.
the whole purpose of my statements is to indicate that our hobby is subjective.
i have only found one digital front end that i prefer to my cd player, namely the original zanden and its companion transport.
i will assume that you fabricate a fine product but i doubt it sounds like the original zanden or the original lector. |
" "Error correction," which as I understand it occurs many times during the reading of a typical cd, is by definition bit perfect, i.e., the error is corrected!
Hi Al, please take this as a question and not an argument: If information (bits) is missing from a read, how does a CDP know what that information is. It was my understanding that error correction/interpolation/concealment is a process where the CDP makes a sort of guess based on the before and after the error bits. Okay Steve, blast away :-) |
11-28-11: Phaelon
If information (bits) is missing from a read, how does a CDP know what that information is. It was my understanding that error correction/interpolation/concealment is a process where the CDP makes a sort of guess based on the before and after the error bits. Hi Tom, Good question. The answer is that what are called "error correcting code" bits are encoded onto the CD, in addition to the audio data (and other) bits. As explained in the first Wikipedia writeup I linked to, those bits implement mathematical algorithms which allow errors in the associated data bits to be detected, and if the errors are not extremely severe (as may result, for instance, from a particularly severe scratch on the CD), also allow the exact original data to be determined. That process is performed by the transport mechanism's electronics. In the far more rare event that the errors are too severe to be precisely corrected, then interpolation (aka concealment) is performed, which as you realize amounts to an estimate or guess as to what the data should be. Or in extreme cases the CDP may mute, or if a non-realtime read mechanism such as a computer or the Perfect Wave transport is being used, multiple attempts may be made to read the incorrect data. Note this sentence in the Wikipedia writeup: The result is a CIRC [Cross-Interleaved Reed-Solomon Code] that can completely correct error bursts up to 4000 bits, or about 2.5 mm on the disc surface. This code is so strong that most CD playback errors are almost certainly caused by tracking errors that cause the laser to jump track, not by uncorrectable error bursts. Best regards, -- Al |
Thanks Al. Terrific explanation. |
So according to that wiki and what I previously thought, it is A COMPLETE FALLACY that the audio cd player reads a different set of data each time and products like the ps audio perfect wave are relying on pure marketing to make people think cd reads are inaccurate. |
No.
An uncorrectable error burst is just one of many issues addressed elsewhere in this thread.
Your 'complete fallacy' assertion would take quite a major leap of faith to believe.
On paper, in a perfect world, there is no reason for a CDP not to read a CD exactly the same way, every time. We don't live in a perfect world. Something else is at work here. |
MRTennis wrote:
"i have only found one digital front end that i prefer to my cd player, namely the original zanden and its companion transport.
i will assume that you fabricate a fine product but i doubt it sounds like the original zanden or the original lector."
You would be wrong. As you can see from this old customer posts:
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?icomp&1228141324&read&keyw&zzspoiler
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?icomp&1211443920&read&keyw&zzspoiler
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?icomp&1208020926&read&keyw&zzspoiler
even my older obsolete Spoiler DAC beat the Zanden 5000 and dCS stacks. My new Overdrive DAC is a LOT better, taking best of show from TAS in both 2010 and 2011 at RMAF.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
HFChoi - you are correct. With a clean CD, there are virtually no read errors with modern read heads. There will be some differences in jitter with each play however, based on lots of things, such as AC power, ground loops in the system etc..
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
hi steve:
i think you miss my point.
1) the fact that some prefer your tranhsports and dac combinations to the zanden does not mean that is in fact better.
2) preference is subjective. i dare say it is possible that i would disagree with the assessment of the zanden relative to your products, because of taste considerations.
as has been said before many fine products are different not better than each other.
again, i will not cast aspersions on your products, its just that hmy preferences differ from yours.
would you bet that i would prefer your dac and transport to, say the lector player ? |
Thanks to all that replied. This is a very helpful thread. |
Mrtennis,
I have followed your posts to audioengr. I would be careful here as luckily Hifi has now fallen into the arms of the computer world where all the snake oil is cleaned away. Unless you are finding some kind of lucky euphonic coincidence in your set up, it is unlikely any cd player playing in real time can compete these days with a computer server.
You will find focus & purity, with timing & dynamics all in place like no CD/SACD player can match from a well set up computer & DAC combo. I have been there with very exotic players, & they were completely out classed by a humble mac with a decent DAC.
At last digital has come of age like they promised 30 years ago... Don't fall into that audiophile nonsense. The source is unpoluted now... Just worry about all the rest down stream! |
i am not disputing the (alleged) benefits of servers or computers as transports.
all i am saying is that when the issue is two products competing with each other there will always be some eho prefer one or the other. |
Saying a format or its playback equipment will not die is naive. There were thousands if not millions of 8track players and cassette players before the CD player. Both are now for the most part dead. Other than pro equipment I do not think they are even produces anymore
They almost killed off turntables and the vinyl market. There were tens of millions of TT at one time, every home had one. Only the nitch market kept it going and a good number of people then and now would not believe the rhetoric that CD's sounded better.
I do think vinyl will end, I just hope not in my life time.
I think CD players will die out because DVD and BR equipment can play CD disks. They also do it better in most cases. Just look at the Oppo players of today, I think the output sound quality is better than most CD players unless you pay many thousands of dollars above an Oppo's price.
Thats the problem with computers and digital technology, we have only just started to scratch the surface and in the digital age we discard old for new. Remember the floppy dick there were billions of those.
It's also like what we say in New England if you do not like the weather wait a minute it will change.
IMHO |
"Remember the floppy dick"
Sounds like a bad porno movie.....
Shakey |
|
Hevac1 and Shakey,
You just made my day. I can't stop laughing. |
Mrtennis,
The fact that you write "alleged" to describe the benefits seems to show an unwillingness to believe.
If I were you I would make it a priority to move to some sort of computer "transport", if not for the "alleged" benefits in sound quality, then for the undisputed ease of accessing your music collection at the swipe of an iPad or press of a key.
I find it hard to believe in the 21st centurary that some wish to look through hundreds of cd covers to find the music they want, then wonder over to a steam powered disk player, pop in the disk, wait for it to read the index, then fumble for the remote to the press play. Why would you do this? The love of the audiophile hair shirt?
Even if the sound quality was the same (and is more likely to be better) the freedom is a much greater benefit than any nuanced euphonics. You can have high quality artwork & all the info as metadata embedded in the file.
It reminds me of the final days of my TT when I could listen to the whole album without having to flip over and clean before playing side 2. The ritual in the end was bogus. It was music we all fell in love with, not rubbish technology & its limitations. |
"Floppy Dick"...Wasn't that the sequel to Moby Dick? I think Floppy was Moby's son who went on to create a Viagra like substance that helped Moby in his older years, or something like that.
Chadeffect, agree. Getting up to flip Pink Floyds DSOTM or the Moody Blues DOFP to side 2 kinda breaks up the continuity of the concept. But I don't think we "all" fell for the music, some people fall for the equipment and are more left brained where analysis takes place ergo more arguements, I mean dicussions :-), take place. For me it's the music. |
hi chas:
believe it or not using some form of a computer as a transport--lap top or desk top, is most inconvenient.
i can use the ps audio pperfect wave transport , or listen to my favorite cd player, which may exhibit coloroations i like and can be tuned by changing a tube.
if i used a "server" as a transport, i would need to find a dac with a tube in it and there is no guarantee that i would prefer the conics of the server with the dac over my cd player.
so, i am part laser and willing to "assume" that my favorite cd player with the "right" tube will be preferable to anything else.
it's a gamble and requires looking for cds. both of which i am am willing to accept.
i may have a chance to listen to a modified lap top from a company , in conjunction woth my ps audio perfect wave dac, but i expect i won't like that combo better than my cd player.
i think you can read between the lines and see why the server route would not be my best choice. |
I wanna hear more about Moby's long lost son! Thanks, Onemug. lol.
I really can't understand why anyone cares whether Mr. Tennis prefers or doesn't prefer his cdp over computer audio. It's like reading about why he should like one single malt over another. Their his taste buds. It doesn't sound like he's trying to change anyone's opinion about what they should prefer, either. |
Vhiner,
More? They made a movie about Floppy. It didn't win any awards. It was up against some pretty stiff competition.
Agree with your last paragraph. I think you and I are more right brained orientated. The left brainers can argue ad nauseam over what is better. I have a support group for them....On and On Anon. KIDDING LBers. |
Hi vhiner,
The reason why anyone cares is because this is part of the above discussion. It means nothing to me personally, but I do recognise the audiophile disease in the above posts & I am contributing my experience.
Hi Mrtennis,
I was under the impression the PS audio is a memory player of sorts. So slightly blurs this conversation. It sounds good too. PS audio are an honest company.
Re this tube or that for added audiophile happiness, there is always a way to add the euphonics if that's what works for you. Ironically I ended up with a flea power SET being a bit of a tube hater! So I do understand, but the latest generation DACs completely rewrote what was possible from Digital. Even making my DCS Scarlatti sounding a bit "old" digital & at a cheaper price.
Ok you could use a transport in, but 0 jitter via FireWire sounds way better to me. Also you may find the coloration you are adding now is unnessassary with an extremely fine sounding DAC like the Weiss Medea plus FW. You won't want anything in the way of its stunning sound quality. |
Look guy's Dicks disks are getting a complex and may not be able to perform after this. |
Irvrobinson - better yet, just keep a book of the CD inserts to browse. This is what I plan on doing if I ever get around to going the way of the computer. |
Yeah, I was discussing this issue with someone in the office, and there are lots of good ideas available. After some thought I've decided the real problem is that I'm not motivated enough to change. Being a dinosaur is still convenient enough. ;-) |
Chadeffect,
I apologize for my imprecise wording...I meant I didn't understand why anyone would want to change someone else's firmly stated preference..as if against their will. You are merely sharing your experience which is, of course, completely understandable.
As to the topic, which is whether the compact disc is dead, I think it's safe to assume people will hold on to their dicks as long as it suits them, floppy or otherwise. Thanks again Hevac1! Autocorrect has it's blessings...the results are often hilarious. |
For instance it keeps changing its to it's. Argh! |
Vhiner, LOL. Thanks back at ya. |
hi chad:
i like a classic tube sound. the audio industry is not designing products which have that sonic signature. in fact designers are trying to get rid of as much coloration as possible.
i have heard many set amps, that have the modern tube sound, not the classic tube sound.
so, i will stick with my old cd player and probably be happier with it than with a device which reveals the imperfections and deficiencies of recordings |
Hi Mrtennis,
I totally understand. What I would say is there is a level of digital accomplishment that is far beyond the reference digital of the past & is something that has happened very recently.
I have wrestled with the philosophy of whether a highend system is to be true to the source or not? After all most records have had a fair amount of work & money spent on them to sound the way they do. Then some enthusiast desides he wants it to sound different!
I guess in the end it is down to what you like. But in my experience a bandage over a problem eventually has to be removed. Is the tube output on your player there to bring life into a lifeless player? Maybe a DAC that's totally alive would remove the need for the added tube stage? After all there is a reason for many manufacturers of tube amps etc sounding less tubey.
Having said all that, I am using a power amp whose Genisis in the 1930s! Lol. In my defence I have a very simple signal path, with no extra connections & boxes etc. Just Source-power amp-speakers. |
. It reminds me of the final days of my TT when I could listen to the whole album without having to flip over and clean before playing side 2. The ritual in the end was bogus. It was music we all fell in love with, not rubbish technology & its limitations. Geez Chadeffect, AMEN! It was always all about the music with me. I've always wanted the best sound I could get in the most convenient way I could get it, that way I get to listen to more music. To heck with bogus rituals....gimme some music...now! . |
So if I download Amarra I HAVE to download every disk over again or can Amarra find the files. Currently use itunes.
Thanks. |
Bjesien,
You can use amarra via iTunes. Amarra just sits on the output.
You can browse in iTunes then when you play, amarra will cache the file & play from memory.
Amarra sounds slightly better & can play gapless if you use amarra on its own. Depending on which version you have you can highlight tracks in iTunes & import into Amarra too.
Personally I like to use iTunes via remote as my browser. So you get full artwork & metadata on your controller (iPad/iPhone etc) |
The discussion on this thread was helpful. I think I'm going to dip my toe in the water of computer audio and sample some stuff from HD Tracks. Looks like I can download FLAC 92/24 music files from them and also get a trial version of JRiver.
Do I have this right? FLAC is a lossless hi res version of the music but I will need JRiver to play the FLAC file from my PC. Output will be USB to V-Link to V-Dac to pre-amp. Major Question for me: How do I disable Windows Media Player so only JRiver is outputting? If I'm making some incorrect assumptions please advise.
Thanks in advance. |
Ghost - Jriver is a good choice for PC. Make sure you are using Kernel Streaming or WASAPI plug-in. I would convert FLAC files to .wav using dbpoweramp. They will sound better IME. Jriver replaces WMP. Just make sure that your device, the V-link is selected for output in control panel - audio and sounds. Also, try different USB ports on your PC. Some can sound better than others.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
Some people enjoy playing with computers and computer programs. For those who don't and who have very high sound quality standards, computer audio is not quite ready for prime time. Let me explain.
When I'm at home, I listen to audio for fun. The best computer experience for me at home is something like my IPad and my Squeezebox Touch. I plug them in and they do everything I want them to perfectly. Pandora upsampled to 176.4 can be surprisingly satisfying. Controlled by my IPad, it's even *more* fun. This System took 20 minutes to set up and it always delivers. My IPad and Touch are like my toaster or my microwave....or my transport. THEY serve ME.
When I regularly read about the dizzying array of file conversion steps/programs/servers and trouble shooting necessary to keep a computer-based system operational and working at optimal performance standards, I shudder. It reminds me of a first-generation linksys wireless router I once owned that tortured me for several years.
One day an affordable plug 'n play "toaster" system or device will be available for those who want to experience the very best computer-based/digital audio can offer. Until then, I will let others do the heavy lifting (I really do appreciate your hard work). Meanwhile, I will continue to enjoy cd playback through a DAC that provides me nearly as much joy as the best server-generated audio I've heard (and I've heard some of the best) |
Thank you, Steve. I'm streaming Pandora and the ASUS netbook recognizes the V-Link automatically. Is "Kernel Streaming" an option to look for w/i JRiver? No clue as to what a WASAPI plug-in might be. I visted the dppoweramp site. I think I'll wait a bit before trying to convert FLAC downloads. I'm already straining my 20th century analog brain. Any thoughts about accessing files downloaded to an external hard drive? Thanks again. |
Ghost - yes, Kernel streaming is a JRiver plug-in option. Hopefully, your V-link supports it.
WASAPI is generally used with Win7 and Vista, but you can use KS also.
If the hard drive is on your network, then the player software should be able to find it. Read their help.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
hi chadeffect:
i think the essence of the arguement is taste. all components are imperfect. it's just a matter of what "flavor" of imperfect one likes. |
I think computerphiles are different that audiophiles. I think the guy that realizes that and produces something high quality and convenient might sell something. If source material, and there is more source material(cd's) than there is in all formats before cd, and high quality equip to play it then it won't be going away very soon. Makes sense. Though sense is not to common anymore. |
Just bought a new Yamaha CD-S2000. Own a Modwright Transporter.
Run a 2010 Mac mini server w/8 megs ram. I am enjoying them both in
the same rig, sometimes w/the player as transport. The server/router r
on another floor of the house. I find when playing the physical cd I am
more likely to read & enjoy the liner notes in the casing. I've close to
3 terabytes of CDs that I've enjoyed over the last several years as I
explored the tube rolling options the transporter allows. 6sn7s & rectifiers,
bad boys, black glass, metal basers, mesh plates, black treasures,
psvanes, valvos, & mullards. Lotz of fun, but when I wanted to further
enhance 'neutrality' on the front end I purchased the Yamaha. Reason?
Totally subjective. I like very much I-Peng on the iPad/iPhone & believe
the Transporter is a marvel of flexibility & sophistication. It will always
have a place in one of my systems. But, that said I have fond memories
of a CDS3/555ps I owned & the many hrs. listening/learning/exploring
(isn't that what the hobby is about?) in yrs past. Like vinyl, I will always
strive to find a way by which to introduce & integrate the medium so that
I maintain the ability to enjoy the various 'flavors'. For me it cannot be either/or.
It must be both/each, acknowledging the roots of the past while embracing the 'youthful' future. Each medium requires a certain 'attention', whether one has the resources, stamina, patience, or good fortune to posses the finest player/table/dac matters not, but the pleasure is in the effort, the attention. The soul of the 'muse' is @the heart of the music. The reward is in the searching, the discovery that music is 'bottomless'. So for me, no,
the cd player can never die as a musical source.
I look forward to my VSE mods, but 2day 'it's all good'.... |
The CD will remain as a niche industry, like vinyl has, but will effectively die as a mass media. The reason is simple...money. The record companies have to be salivating at the thought of cutting CD production and distribution costs from their profit equation. They will continue to charge the same price for a CD/Album, but their profit margins will increase incrementally due to the reduced expenses. The industry will have to let the general public catch up to the new technologies, but once they're convinced that they aren't leaving money on they table, they'll cut the the cord to CD's. Since most music is purchased by teens and twenty something's, who by and large are already on board with the steaming formats, the end could be sooner rather than later.
I've recently purchased a Vortexbox Appliance an am in the process of downloading all my music to the device. It's as simple as cake. I now have access to all of my music at multiple systems in my house. The sound is excellent and I don't feel I'm missing anything from using the physical disc.
In addition to my music collection, I have subscriptions to Rhapsody and MOG, which gives me access to an an almost endless library of music and at excellent quality. Frankly, my music purchasing has dropped off dramatically in the past year due to the availability of practically anything I want through these online services at the touch of a button. While music obtained through these services may not give me every last "bit" of information that a CD might, it is more than good enough and the convenience is unbeatable. Plus it's just a matter of time before download services are offering CD quality music as the standard.
Maybe I'm losing my audiophile edge, but I've grown weary of chasing perfect playback and, rather, am delighting in the exploration of the vast amounts of music now at my fingertips. |
