Wilson Sofia 2 vs marten dajango L
http://www.stereophile.com/images/912marten.fig1.jpg http://www.stereophile.com/images/211Wilfig01.jpg They are both very hard to drive in the bass with impedance and -phase angle for a transformer coupled amp as the MC500, it will work but you may not get what they’re "really" capable of in this area. Cheers George |
Easy. Stay well away from Marten ceramic drivers (accuton I believe). Get the Wilson. The sound of the Wilson Sophia 2 is extremely realistic - especially in the all important mid range. Ceramic or rigid drivers suffer from the "ring like a bell" issue - lots of unrelated harmonics. Think about it - a drum set has cymbals - thin round rigid discs of hard metal - they sound great and have a long sustain with a multitude of vibrations after the initial hit - do you really think a cymbal would make a great speaker driver???? |
Easy. Stay well away from Marten ceramic drivers (accuton I believe). Get the Wilson. IMO,bad advise.Marten makes an extremely sophisticated speaker and the accuton driver is again IMO considered on the upper end of driver manufactures..having said that I don't think your amp choice is a good match with either.I would find the speaker you like and match the amp with it,Certainly not what your attempting to do |
In my opinion the zero’s are an interim band-aid fix for something that can’t drive it properly without them. I’ve played with them and found that with an amp that IS very capable of doing the job properly, and then inserting them even though they weren’t needed it was a definate step backwards. Your far better off getting the right amp to start with. Cheers George |
The Marten Django L is a superior speaker to the Sophia 2 and The Sophia 3 for that matter....... and the person who likens their drivers to drum cymbals needs to simply go hear a pair to see he is absolutely smoking something he should not be........ I do think you have way too much amp for either of those speakers for that size room......and I think you could do far better than McIntosh in terms of overall performance.....but if you're keepin em.....keep em..... The Django L's are some of the best bargains out there in the 9K new range.......I have a dealer friend who just brought in a pair after exhibiting with them at Rocky Mountain with his Zesto gear......I've heard them and they sound absolutely amazing....... |
I am staying with all McIntosh ...what speakers do you feel are a good match with the MC501s ....any suggestions ?You should treat them as you would a good tube amp, as the output transformers are the limiting factor to how nastier load they can handle. I would say look for speakers that don’t dip below 4ohms and have less than -30 phase angle with that 4ohm frequency. As in the Martins case above at 65hz a combination of 5ohms with -45 degree phase angle could represent an EPDR load to the amp of around 2ohms. And 65hz is the power area needed for bass. EPDR= equivalent peak dissipation resistance Wilson Alexia’s have an EPDR at 65hz of .9ohm!!!!!!!! Notice the simiarlity with the Danjo graph at 65hz? http://www.stereophile.com/images/1213Walexfig01.jpg Cheers George |
George what speakers do match the phase of McIntosh ?Here are just some in the same’ish price range class that the OP mentioned, from Stereophile impedance v -phase angle graphs that transformer coupled amps like push/pull tubes and McIntosh should have an easy time with. There are many many more, it’s all about doing your homework, understanding what amps are capable of doing by their measurements/topology, by reading about them and understanding graph of speaker measurements. http://www.stereophile.com/images/416Van7fig1.jpg http://www.stereophile.com/images/714R208fig1.jpg http://www.stereophile.com/images/713YGS13fig01.jpg http://www.stereophile.com/images/615KEF2fig01.jpg Cheers George |
Clearly, not everyone can hear the difference nor can they be expected to understand how ultra light rigid cones might behave differently from soft fabric or paper/pulp or "intrinsically damped materials". For those mentally challenged, imagine a wine glass versus a pillow - which one will ring most when you tap it - extreme example of course. |
If what you are saying has any reality attached to it, then the MBL 101E must be the most metallic sounding speaker on earth.......also, any vintage Apogee cannot possibly sound musical..... Drivers are made of hemp, paper, plastic, carbon fiber, woven products of all exotic variety, even wood products.....they are made of metal, metal ribbons, folded metal, mylar with magnets......tweeters of berillium and coated with crushed up diamonds (wow, that must sound like someone working in a mine LOL) The material of the driver has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with what it projects into the listening room...... As beautifully simplistic as your wine glass versus pillows and cymbals analogies are, they are simply fantasy...........you need to go out and do some listening and when you are finished I hope you realize that speakers don't consist of apparatuses actually STRIKING the driver..like a gong.........LOL |
Stewart, Of course the material and construction of the driver influences the sound. Basically, hard material cones are less damped and tend to ring but can be more pistonic (broader frequency operating envelope) - allowing the use of small voice coils on larger woofers. Softer materials such as damped fabric cones often have the least coloration but suffer from a reduced operating envelope as the cone can break up and to have a good operating range they may need enhancements like more support from a much larger expensive voice coil. There are are pros and cons to everything and then there is aesthetics and marketing (choice of material may influence buyers) - as you alluded, there are so many ways and combination of materials used to make the cones that the only logical conclusion is that it DOES matter. BTW - the rubber damping dots on Accuton drivers - any idea what they might be for - could it be Accuton’s approach to reduce ringing? BTW - I can hear the difference. You are blessed if you cannot as a variety of materials and a much larger number of speaker designs will work equally well for you. |
Shadorne...Your dismissal of Marten speakers /Accutron drivers is just silly at best.Some might call it ridiculous....and for your to write BTW - I can hear the difference. You are blessed if you cannot as a variety of materials and a much larger number of speaker designs will work equally well for you...... As the say..we cant argue with stupid! |
shadorneYou've got the physics of that all wrong, what they're trying to do is get a pure pistonic behaviour without any cone flex, this is the ideal for pushing air without any "ring like a bell issue" that you get from cones flexing. Cheers George |
They might have 2ohms taps but can they deliver big current?? An amp that "almost" doubles it’s wattage for each halving of impedance, is what’s needed to get the "very best" out of the bass of these hard to drive speakers. Sure amps that can’t do this sort of current will work, but you’ll never hear the bass for what it can really do. EG: This is the perfect non-existant amp that can do perfect current delivery, in practice they can never excatly double. 100w into 8ohms 200w " " 4ohms 400w " " 2ohms 800w " " 1ohm Cheers George |
Here is a well written link that describes the pros and cons of direct radiator driver design. http://www.nutshellhifi.com/library/speaker-design2.html Clearly, some people here are in need of some education. I will not stoop to labels like STUPID, as I don't regard anyone here on these forums in that way. I believe I can often learn a lot here on Audiogon but clearly, in this thread, there are several well meaning folks who might learn something interesting if they do choose to read further the above link. I am not saying Wilson Sophia are the best speakers in the world - just that in this particular comparison stated by the OP they will sound a lot better (for valid technical & audible reasons stated) |
I have had Wilson Audio Watt Puppy 3.2's for almost 25 years and they still look new and sound fantastic, very detailed. I recently was going to buy a used pair of Sophia 2's, loved them, but I was able to get a great deal on a pair of used Sasha 1's. Absolutely love them also, especially with tube amps. Wilsons last, extreme quality. |
