@macg19 +2.
This topic has been beaten to death.
I don't care what anyone else thinks, and I don't feel the need to try to sway anyone's opinion one way or the other. Certainly not enough to argue about it.
Audio Cables: All the Same?
My patience has worn thin reading numerous postings by individuals who proclaim that anyone who spends more than, say, $30 on a cable is an “audiophool” and that the manufacturers who sell cables priced above that price are snake oil dealers. These people base their claims on two factors: (1) they can’t hear the difference between a cheap cable and an extremely expensive one; and (2) all cables of any quality whatsoever measure the same when tested.
I believe that these individuals have blinders on. Allow me to set forth a useful analogy – eggs Benedict. The recipe for them is simple: toast an English muffin; sauté a couple of slices of Canadian bacon; poach two eggs; and prepare Hollandaise sauce. After those ingredients are ready, put the Canadian bacon on the English muffin, stack the eggs on the bacon, pour Hollandaise sauce over the eggs (and possibly sprinkle a pinch of hot paprika over the sauce), and serve. Voila! Now, take two preparers – one of whom doesn’t give a damn how his eggs Benedict turns and tastes as long as he gets his $17.50/hour pay; and the other a supremely talented chef renowned for his exquisite preparation of egg dishes. I am willing to venture a guess that one of them will taste terrific, perhaps being the memorable highlight of a marvelous breakfast, and the other will be an awful mess, perhaps a composition of barely toasted and soggy English muffin, Canadian bacon so overcooked that the meat is like shoe leather, poached eggs like hockey pucks, and a severely curdled muck of a sauce poured over everything, followed by far too much paprika. That serving will also be memorable, but for a far different reason.
Now, here comes the chemist to test and measure both versions of eggs Benedict. He confirms that, upon his testing of the two dishes, he is able to state unequivocally that they are identical because both contain exactly the same ingredients and provide the same nutritional value. The fact that one serving is nearly inedible and the other is altogether delicious is irrelevant. After all, there is no science-based test for taste.
I propose the same is true for cables – there is no scientific test for what we hear.
Let me end my soliloquy by relating my recent experience with cables. A couple of months ago, I upgraded my digital system by acquiring a new SACD transport and a new DAC. Both components are widely considered to be extremely high end pieces of equipment (and priced stratospherically, too). At the time I did not replace the cables I had been using previously – an Audioquest Cimarron Ethernet cable between my 24 port network switch and my DAC, and Monster Cable M1000 analog interconnects between my DAC and my preamp. Frankly, I was dismayed by what I heard when I began streaming (Qobuz) music through my new DAC. The magic I had heard at its demonstration at AXPONA 2024 was non-existent. Maybe it was a bit better than my old DAC, but certainly not by much. One of the local audio dealers with whom I shared my disappointment suggested I try a really good Ethernet cable, handing me a Shunyata Sigma V2. This Shunyata cable contains two filters (one for EMI/RFI and one for common-mode interference) as well as several differentiators in how it is constructed. I really despise the expression oft-used by reviewers – “like a veil was lifted” – but that is what happened. The magic had returned. However, now I had another problem. Voices seemed to come only from a singer’s mouth and not also from the chest. With instrumentals, a certain fundamental (bass) element was missing. Overall, it was as if the entire frequency spectrum was tilted – lifting the treble and lowering the bass. I went back to this dealer. He recommended I try a pair of DH Labs Air Matrix Cryo analog interconnects between my DAC and my preamp. All I can say is “Wow!” The frequency spectrum had returned to its proper equilibrium.
I have now been using these new cables for a month. Their impacts are not the result of a placebo effect. Moreover, the last thing in the world I had wanted was to spend a couple of thousand dollars more for cables after I had already spent far more than I had planned on the SACD transport and the DAC. However, they had addressed and solved two very real problems. The Shunyata cable filtered out noise coming from the network switch; the DH Labs cable eliminated a frequency distortion inherent with the Monster Cable cable (which evidently had been masked by the predecessor DAC).
Before this experience, I had never believed that cables could be so important an element of an audio system. I always spent between $100 and $200 on them because, on the one hand I did not want to “chintz” and shortchange myself sonically, but on the other hand I was very skeptical that even spending that amount was fully money-for-incremental-value.
Since then, I tried replacing another Audioquest Cimarron Ethernet cable between my Nucleus+ and my network switch with a $500 Ethernet cable of another well-regarded cable manufacturer. I could not detect a shred of sonic difference between them. Thus, it has become clear to me that every cable implementation is unique; sometimes there is a discernable improvement provided by one over the other, and other times there isn’t.
In summary, having a preconceived notion about the value of cables (or lack thereof) disserves oneself. In some cases, but not all, there is a cable out there that will truly improve the sound of one’s audio system. It may be immeasurable, but it is, nevertheless, very real.
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This is an anecdotal story re: wire, not cable, but close enough IMHO. My 'aha' moment re: wire was when I was upgrading an old Dynaco PAS 3 preamp. I had replaced all caps, resistors, power supply, volume pot and it was working fine. I had some leftover wire, so I figured while I was at it, swap out the old wire. I forget the manufacturer of the new stuff, maybe Kimber cable. It was about 20-22 gauge. Replaced the wire, turned it on, and it was awful - very muddy. So I put a few CDs on and left it over dinner. Came back and WOW. All clear from top to bottom. YMMV of course, Have I gone out and spent a fortune on cables? No, but I am careful what I buy. For me, now - Blue Jean Cables. Good price, good sound, great service. | |
Inescapable FACT: No one understands exactly how electricity works. That’s why there’s so much Electrical THEORY. The number of Wiki-Scientists on these pages, attempting to win the IG-Nobel Prize in Pseudo-Physics, is always amusing. Whenever some highly educated person actually does discover exactly how electricity functions, they’ll be lauded by the scientific community, will have solved some of the disparities between Relativity and Quantum Mechanics, receive a Nobel and we’ll hear about it. Newton’s THEORIES were largely superseded by Einstein and Bohr's. Then came Feynman’s. For now; none of you can absolutely prove your statements (theories), regarding electricity, FUSES, wires, or anything else, as regards our systems. The following articles, read in sequence, illustrate my point: https://www.steamnews.org/ then: and: OF COURSE: the various popes and dopes, that make up the Church of Denin'tology, won't bother to pursue any truths regarding the above. Most simple choose to remain willfully ignorant and uninformed.* *ie: Won't bother studying anything above, let alone- to their conclusion. Typical Dunning-Kruger symptoms. Happy listening! | |
Feynman was and will remain, my favorite lecturer (yeah: I'm that old). He mentioned often (and: I took to heart) his favorite Rule of Life: "Never stop learning!" For all his genius, he never grew overly confident in his beliefs. The perfect obverse to the Dunning-Kruger sufferer. ie: “I can live with doubt and uncertainty and not knowing. I think it is much more interesting to live not knowing than to have answers that might be wrong.” and: “I have approximate answers, and possible beliefs, and different degrees of certainty about different things, but I’m not absolutely sure of anything.” Tesla is probably my favorite innovator, who (despite the incessant, projectile vomit, from his day's naysayers), took the World, kicking and screaming, into the 20th century, with his inventions. His thoughts: “Anti-social behavior is a trait of intelligence in a world full of conformists.” | |
@dwcda : I’m with you! After decades in this hobby - and wasting money - wire, whether interconnects or speaker wire - has no perceptible affect upon sound quality. A statement that will condemn me to be burnt at the stake by the horde of wire believers! | |
People can do what they want with their money, but the ongoing debates over cable topology are absurd. While longer distances do indeed cost more, the reality is that a basic cable build under $100 is typically sufficient for most needs. Unless you're operating something as demanding as a dragline in a mine, there's no need for extravagant spending on cables. The hype surrounding high-priced cables is simply ridiculous. Investing more than necessary in cables is a waste of resources. | |
In audio we have to deal with all the laws of electricity, and impedance can also come into play. But there are varying degrees of people arguing about cables making a difference. Usually, it's a comparison of materials. For instance, individuals claiming their pure silver cables make their system sound "better" than with copper cables. There is just one problem with this scenario, and it's the commonality that nowhere else in the entire system is this a factor. All the traces of the printed circuit boards within their equipment are copper traces. The jacks are usually not silver plated, and are often nickel or gold plated. After the interconnects, the internals of their speaker cabinets don't tend to have silver wiring nor jacks, and the voice-coils of the speakers are also not silver. So applying silver interconnects to a system without silver elsewhere might change the sound, and it may even be in a positive way for your hearing, but assuming that it will improve things simply based on material make-up is nonsensical. | |
Morrow gives a 60 day return. Try some speaker cables and interconnects. Like them or don’t. In my system, the improvement was monumental but who cares about my system? You care about yours. Return them if they don’t work after 30 days and you’re only out the cost of the postage. Or upgrade like I did because they’re fricking amazing with my components. | |
Religious faith? WELL: the Cargo Cult's still building runways. Time for another repost:
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Cables are a belief system, like many others in our lives. Some people believe that a $5,000 cable makes a significant enough difference to pay the money, others don’t. How is a newcomer to this hobby to judge for themself whether a cable is worth the money? In my case I purchased audio equipment first before considering cables or other tweaks. Initially I purchased good quality, well made Mogami power, interconnect & speaker cables. When I upgraded my hardware the dealer said I should consider getting better cables. He sent some mid-range (Super) Transparent cables to try. I tried them & could hear no difference. I listened to the Transparent cables for a week & then switched back to Mogami. If there was a difference I couldn’t hear it. Later my dealer sent some AQ Dragon HC power cables for my amps. Again, no improvement over the Mogami. - it is not necessarily cost free to test cables whether they’re on loan or not. In my case I had to ship them back & the Dragons are >$5,000 Cdn and shipping and insurance for that max insurable value is about $350. Same for the Transparents when I shipped them back. And if you don’t insure them & they get lost, now you’re on the hook for thousands of $$ of cables you don’t have. - when I first put the Transparent cables on I definitely thought that it sounded better. After a week when I swapped back there was no difference. If I thought that there was I would have done some blind testing to see if I was actually hearing a difference or just kidding myself. But the key point is that initially I believed that they were better. Had I stopped there, I'd never know that they weren't - when I got the Dragons I did do some blind testing & neither the Mogami nor the Dragon were preferred. - I’ve been told that the difference of an entire loom of cables is pretty small and should be a last step in finalizing the sound of your system. Something like a 10% improvement. But I was also told that swapping the entire loom isn’t necessary to notice a difference. Just one interconnect should be a definite change. So out of the 10 or so cables (power/interconnect/speaker) they can improve SQ by 10% combined yet some people can hear improvements of 1 out of 10 cables being changed. Potentially a 1% improvement. - and now I read that cables can enable the listener to hear the music coming from the singer’s mouth or from the chest, or both. Couple that with the supposed ability to detect a change in SQ after 200-500 hours of using a cable... your brain can remember & compare something you just heard with something you listened to days/weeks ago and decide which is better... the necessity of pointing cables in the right direction (amp to speaker), elevating them off of the floor with high priced elevators, crossing other cables perpendicularly... it’s exhausting. So by all means newcomers to audio equipment should consider cables and test their own belief system. But if you’re going to do it you owe it to yourself & your bank account to at a minimum compare your new "veil lifting" cables with your old cables by switching them blindly. I mean, why wouldn’t you? Other than not wanting to know that the new cables do nothing, why wouldn’t you compare without seeing the cables? Imagine if there was an easy way to test your faith in your preferred religion. Just do this simple test & you no longer have to have blind faith. Why wouldn’t you do it? | |
Agreed. None yet. The brain and perception are extraordinarily complicated systems. The notion that engineering is up to the task of measuring all that can be measured as it relates to those psychological and physiological systems is the fallacy most responsible for this debate -- in my view. It is redolent of a physicalist/materialist view of the world which does not pass muster. It is a dogmatism. The other psychological question I would pose to you @jmeyers is this: If you hear a difference and it makes a difference to you, why do you find this debate at all interesting? I mean that seriously, because I find it interesting to, and yet I cannot quite understand why. What’s your reason for "settling the score" in a debate you have settled for yourself?
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As someone old enough to remember when Switchcraft was the upgrade, and who was present in the business when Noel Lee arrived, I want to remind everyone here that the principle reason there is a cable business is simply greed. I have collected many cables over the years and still regard them as a very minor factor in system accuracy, which is what I value. | |
Interesting. Other than politics and religion, the sonic value(s) of cables brings out greater passions - on one side or the other. I can only state my experience(s) (assuming all ears are the same level of sharpness): 1. I have used a high end Elrod AC cable on amplifiers with jaw dropping effect. I have also used the same cable on another power amplifier with very little effect. FACT Not all power cables will produce the same outcome on all power amps. I speculate that this fact is due to the differences in the amount of gain, feedback loops, shielding, rectification noise etc. within each power amplifier. Synergy is critical.
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My memory is fine. You sound confused. Please stop. If you feel I have posted improper content please direct your complaint to the moderators. You can use the Contact Us link that is at the bottom of each page, @abnerjack . | |
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Amen. The damage the naysayers do here is that they may stop or delay others from even trying different/better cables, and that’s the really sad part and the real value of a post like this — it may spur some people who are on the fence or are less experienced to just try. If they do and don’t hear any difference, well then fine but at least they tried for themselves and if nothing else gained some valuable knowledge/experience along the way. To tell people cables make no difference is discouraging them from even trying for themselves just because you either don’t hear a difference or, worse, just “believe” they can’t make a difference. In this day and age it’s so easy to try cables with direct sellers or in the used market with little/no risk, so why would you discourage people from taking advantage of that and just seeing/hearing for themselves? There are scores of people here who, much like the OP, lived with cheaper/lesser cables for years because they didn’t think they’d make a difference only to find that once they just tried something else how much they were missing out on all those years simply because they held on to a “belief.” I myself was guilty of this and lived with a budget digital cable for years thinking it wouldn’t make much difference on a relative basis, but when I finally tried a better cable it made a significant improvement and I kicked myself for waiting so long to try something else just because of my “belief.” If your experience/belief is that cables are overpriced and/or don’t make a difference that’s perfectly fine, but discouraging others from just trying and finding out for themselves is not fine and why posts like this still have potential value for many out there. | |
There’s a reason why studios don’t use those overhyped cables. They use $50/3m wires mostly and those indeed will match recorded material if played. No need to fall on explanations as to why those $10000 per pair cables will make difference you don’t really need. If all you need is to match studio quality, then buy same cables. Mogami Silver cables are certainly the most popular in recording studios. | |
You sound confused. If you feel I’ve posted anything improper, please direct your complaint to the moderators, @abnerjack. | |
Do cables make an audible difference? Why, of course they do. However, whether or not cables make a difference, like all things high end audio, is solely dependent upon the ears of the individual audiophile, and no one else. What the hell do I care if someone else believes that cables make no difference and they all sound the same regardless of construction, cost or tech. That's their business. My only concern is what effects my own high end audio rig. Period. Happy listening. | |
What is common about your 2 cabels from a scientific standpoint is the cryo that puts the atoms back in thier lattice atomic structure and allows electrons to flow more efficiently. I have used it cryo in many engine ..gear and other for strength and rigidity.the placebo effect is 20%in medicine.this seems to be more than that.enjoy the music stay healthy | |
Cleeds you're right ABX tests test the device, the cable in this case. And really that's the point, a scientific test exists to compare 2 cables. Unfortunately sighted comparisons are subject to listener bias and are meaningless. No one denies what they think they hear, they're just pointing out the obvious and inherent bias | |
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I'm sorry but there is no possible way to read those words & not think that you are justifying the $2,000-$3,000 worth of cables that you bought. Veil lifted... check, magic returned... check, wife noticed from another room while casually listening, nope, missed one.
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I shall make this final comment about my posting. My intent was not to justify my own expenditures for new cables. Rather, it was to share my [positive] experience, which, incidentally, was quite surprising to me and in contradiction of my expectation. I sought to encourage other current skeptics to explore the possibility that employing new cables in their own audio systems MIGHT ameliorate tonal or other problems they are experiencing. One of the primary ways people learn is from the shared experiences of others. To close one's mind to such learning opportunities is, well, sad. | |
I get a laugh out of these cable discussions. Why do you feel you have to preach to your fellow audiophiles, justifying your expenditure on cables? Why does it matter if I can or cannot hear a difference in cables? If I tell you that an overwhelming body of evidence exists that under blind conditions you cannot hear the difference in cables, would you care? What if I also tell you that an overwhelming body of scientific evidence says that preexisting bias has a huge influence on human preferences? Would any of this cause you to reexamine your beliefs? Of course not. Cable defenders seem a lot like evangelical religious people who have to justify their beliefs and seek to convert others to their cause. I'm sorry that you are so obsessed with whether or not I can hear the difference in cables. It looks like this is part of your identity so if it makes you feel better to buy lots of expensive cables and and make lengthy self indulgent posts about a subject that has been beaten to death, go right ahead. It's your time and money. | |
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That is a common misnomer. Hearing is tested using objective standards and is conducted (at the minimum) by an audiologist. These are licensed professionals and they don't use blind testing. ABX testing in audio isn't designed to test the listener - and that explains why thorough ABX testing involves multiple listeners. A/B testing and ABX testing is intended to assess the device under test, known as a DUT. The "device" isn't the listener. That is why, in practice, no listener can "fail" an A/B or ABX test - the listener isn't under test. The only thing an A/B or A/B/X test can reveal is whether a listener could identify a difference between the components under the conditions of the test. It reveals nothing else. | |
Love that famous lyric line “ Do you hear what I hear “ The BS with this type of post it’s always the same, with no resolve. Imo if you spent big money on cables and don’t hear what you want take em back, simple, shut up, move on, time is precious. There’s always going to be tweaks, placebo, snake oil, and a market, do remember We’re all going to run out of time ! Cheers
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There may not be a scientific test for what you hear (although there is), but there is a scientific test to determine if what you’re hearing is different than what you heard with different cables. Unfortunately way too many people won’t admit that it works because then they couldn’t boast about their new Nordhost or Siltech wiring. Just as way too many people won’t admit their religious beliefs are faulty, but ya gotta have faith that it works. Yes, audiophilia shares many aspects with religion. | |
Taking the Eggs Benedict analogy a step further, imagine that when you’re served the two meals you don’t know which was prepared by which cook. After tasting each dish you find them equally tasty and can’t tell them apart. You call it a trick and from then on will only consider meals where you know who prepared them. Btw, blind testing is a scientific test of your hearing. | |
@raysmtb1 + @lordrootman: "Louis Pasteur's theory of germs is ridiculous fiction." (Pierre Pachet, Professor of Physiology at Toulouse , 1872) "The abdomen, the chest, and the brain will forever be shut from the intrusion of the wise and humane surgeon," (Sir John Eric Ericksen, British surgeon, appointed Surgeon-Extraordinary to Queen Victoria 1873) "The super computer is technologically impossible. It would take all of the water that flows over Niagara Falls to cool the heat generated by the number of vacuum tubes required." (Professor of Electrical Engineering, New York University) "There is no likelihood man can ever tap the power of the atom." (Robert Millikan, Nobel Prize in Physics, 1923) "Man will never reach the moon regardless of all future scientific advances." (Dr. Lee DeForest, Father of Radio & Grandfather of Television) "Heavier-than-air flying machines are impossible!" (Lord Kelvin, president, Royal Society, 1895) "The bomb will never go off. I speak as an expert in explosives." (Admiral William Leahy, re: US Atomic Bomb Project) When the steam locomotive came on the scene; the best (scientific) minds proclaimed, "The human body cannot survive speeds in excess of 35MPH." Until recently (21st Century); and the advent of the relatively new science of Fluid Dynamics, the best (scientific) minds involved in Aerodynamics, could not fathom how a bumblebee stays aloft. Often; Science has to catch up with the facts/phenomena of Nature and/or, "reality" (our universe). I haven't been in school since the 60's, but- at Case Institute of Technology; the Physics Prof always emphasized what we were studying was, "Electrical THEORY." He strongly made a point of the fact that no one had yet actually observed electrons (how they behave on the quantum level) and that only some things can really be called, "LAWS." (ie: Ohm, Kirchoff, Faraday) PERHAPS: that's changed in recent years and I missed it? Happy listening!
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Well: the Denyin'tologists are out again, looking for some converts. Time for a rewind:
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