Yeah, Macdadtexas, I did get carried away, but I am annoyed by writers who seem to go directly to the "Submit as-is" rather than the "Preview-first" button, leaving the reader to hack through garbled prose. The the poster's retort was to denigrate english teachers who have never created wealth. In my defense, I didn't say I was wealthy, and I don't consider myself so.
In response to my first post, I suppose it could be argued the poster hadn't used a double negative: "Neither are not" could be translated logically as both are, although that seems not to have been the poster's intent.
I've certainly been accused of worse than being pompous. Yet I do make a plea for posters to edit their posts before submitting them.
db |
Let's put this to rest. Anyone truly interested in how the Ultimate performs merely has to enter the "Ultimate Receiver" into the forum search engine, to read one accolade upon another from those that have owned them.
I've nothing to gain from promoting the performance of any product. Either something works well or it doesn't.
There's a folly and risk of using someone else's statistics, rather than your own experience with a product on these forums. To suggest Sunfire amps aren't capable of driving ML's makes you appear as a complete fool, for they've a reputation to the contrary. It's common knowledge in fact, perhaps except to HiFihvn, that Sunfire drives ML's into oblivion, and that was one of the products largest seller point at any dealer carrying the two products. They were always featured together at any hi end store. But I understand Hifihvn, you didn't read that fact among your stat sheets.
In this instance your stats have failed you. Citing irrelevant reviews to somehow bolster a false belief system as it pertains to a particular product doesn't change reality. Most Sunfire products work fabulously. From your own admission you've no personal experience with the product being mentioned. Therefore you've no real opinion to share regarding Sunfire product other than a bias against it. That much is clear to anyone. |
In this instance your stats have failed you. Citing irrelevant reviews to somehow bolster a false belief system as it pertains to a particular product doesn't change reality. Most Sunfire products work fabulously. From your own admission you've no personal experience with the product being mentioned. Therefore you've no real opinion to share regarding Sunfire product other than a bias against it. That much is clear to anyone.
Did I state that I have no knowledge of Sunfire products? You never provided a model number for the seven ML speakers you state from your personal experience,driven with the receiver your speaking of here.I never said a Sunfire amp would have trouble driving them.I know the amp does.That is another advantage separates have.You stated the Ultimate II receiver,that I'm referring to.Do you know more about this receiver,than Bob Carver himself does?Do people on the net that use seven of them,against Bob Carver recommendations? Are one of these receivers now your source,instead of your prior amps?Your main system?Your the one recommending to others to do this. |
I also think if your going to try this,(an A/V system for all), why not go with separates?If you have a separate processor,and amps,at least the amps will have a lot more years of usage ahead of them,at least from the view of not being outdated so soon. This way,you could replace the processor,and keep the still serviceable amps. |
For the record, pertaining to all PHD's or credentials of any kind...THIS KIND OF DOCUMENTATION CAN BE BOUGHT OVER THE WEEKEND!!! (Canpick up/purchase anything over the internet these days...it's amazing, really. Has happened at few universities in the past. Just Google it). I'm not impressed.
Hey, I'm pretty certain that all those double PHD's and world renouned physicists that Albert Einstein associated with from his era thought they knew something too! Reality was Einstein figured it out all for them, and proved that the rest of them knew very little of real importance! -Their dregrees meant very little ("education is what begins when you've forgotten everything you've learned in school" - A.E) ...that's all I'm trying to say.
I, for one, like Hifihvn's position that the terminology SUPER RECEIVER is an oxymoron! Considering that any AV receiver is obsolete the following year, it's foolish to invest in such an endevor. Separates is only logical path. That and the fact that receivers will never replace hi-end gear, regardless of what PHD posers and turn of the century retiree's have to say on the matter.
Oh, and Dbphd? For the record, I didn't lose my hearing in the Second World War. So I got that goin for me...which is nice. |
Queefee, I don't know where some of the points in your post come from, e.g. purchased degrees/credentials, hearing loss in the Second World War. I just don't get the relevance of your first or third paragraphs, nor the last clause of the final sentence of your second paragraph.
I agree there is a major advantage of a separate processor and amp, because processor technology does change frequently whereas amp technology tends to be very stable. I also think there are circuit design issues that favor the simplicity of an amp over the complexities of a receiver. As an undergraduate -- before I purchased my degrees and post-doc, I built a number of Dynakit amps but only one preamp; that one preamp was enough.
db |
ZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzz, I'm bored. |
Never provided a model number? What planet R U on? It's not as if I wrote it in Paruski! Vwee gavarite PaEngliski? Do you read English?
But I have to give it to you Hifi, that's an ingenious cover to suggest you didn't understand my constant referrals to the Ultimate were the only receiver I was referring to.
Something you don't know is the Sunfire gear was produced 6 miles from my home. I've met Bob, he's been in my home. Bob believes his amps excel at driving ML's. It's not a big deal, he's a normal guy like all of us. I stand by my statement. The Ultimate is good enuf to stand alone for anyone who desires a quality receiver to do it all. It even has a phono input. Case closed, except for naysayers that don't know the product. |
>>What model ML speakers<< To complicated? |
Something you don't know is the Sunfire gear was produced 6 miles from my home. I've met Bob, he's been in my home. Bob believes his amps excel at driving ML's. It's not a big deal, he's a normal guy like all of us. I stand by my statement. The Ultimate is good enuf to stand alone for anyone who desires a quality receiver to do it all. It even has a phono input. Case closed, except for naysayers that don't know the product.
Coltrane1 (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
Sounds like you may a personal interest in getting people to buy one. |
10-22-10: Coltrane1
Bummer! B&K is toast!!!???
I'm getting this info just days AFTER acquiring a 507 S2 receiver. Oh well, time to blow it out if there's not going to be any support for a bit. It's been confirmed that ATI is buying all of B&K's assets.
So the question now becomes how will ATI eventually support B&K owner's needing repairs?
Coltrane1 (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
More personal interest for talking people into buying the B&K. |
The Kool Aid Carver crowd still exists? I thought Carver was for know nothings on EBAY. |
Oh that's a good one Hifi...Beware, your slip is showing...that's an awfully huge assumption. The man is retired, he or I could give a hoot what you or anyone thought of the gear he previously produced. If you must know I met him as a result of having a component repaired by his repair facility. People who assume their own facts always amaze me. Is there lil' wonder this country is mired down in two wars and just a hair's breath away from the Chinese owning everything. Do you vote? :)
I don't encourage anyone to buy anything. Again, and for the final time, I'm commenting on my personal experiences with said gear. What someone chooses to buy with their own hard earned dollar is their business. I stay out of that. The real distinction between our comments is, I've owned and thoroughly heard what the components in question are capable of. You've established that you've not heardn or owned them, yet you're encouraging others not to sample a product you yourself have no personal knowledge of. Oh, that's just brilliant!
Which ML? Take your pick, I've owned all the first and most of the 2nd generation speakers, and Vantages from the 3rd generation. My currents are CLSiiz's, but not in the home theater room.
Some folks on these forums just enjoy being cantankerous, no matter the subject matter. I get it...peace out! |
Coltrane1,The Sunfire Ultimate wouldn't drive seven ML speakers,and it would be nice to know what seven ML speakers yours drove without any problems.Would you want someone spending their money to find out,the receiver has a problem driving some 4 ohm speakers times seven?The magazine review confirmed that also. According to your other thread,*you* are not happy with the USA.I was not talking politics.Is the Sunfire made in the USA? |
Cantankerous! There is a word I've not heard in a while.
Yes! Let's all get together and ARGUE!!! Tis more fun this way...I'll coneed that, sure. Lol!
Um, my answers to the initial set of questions posted are "no" and "HECK NO!"
Av receivers?...descent. Separates?...MUCH MUCH better. Tubes?....NNNNNNNNNIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIICE! Poking fun and putting Dbphd - and his PHD - in his place?...priceless.
For Arguing about all the other rediculous, near pointless, b.s. topics?...there's Audiogon!!!
Thanx, me... |
I'm wonding if most posting here can agree that, even if it was possible to build a "super receiver", from which to build your audiophile "hi-end" system around - given the ever changing digital landscape these days - it makes little sense to throw thousands(?) into a piece that will be outdated in a year ot two at best!
I think it makes far far more sense to simpy pick up a good multichannel amp (or combo's), which you know mates well and properly drives your speaker setup, from which to build your foundation upon (speakers and amp). Then, you can simply add an otherwise very good clean sounding AV receiver on the budget end as a pre/pro for the system, which does all the most up to date digital process and such! (I think you can pick up something a used AVR354, for instance, for like $200 on the net).
Let's face it, anything that even remotely approaches "hi-end" sound for an AV receiver would have to be thousands, retail! And, typically, as discussed, the amp sections in these AV receivers are typically the weakest point. Just makes much more sense to me to be able to toss a $100 to $200 range receiver, offering otherwise state of the art digital processing and feature-set wise. And then you can simply replace it ever year or two, with whatevers' new, er from the year before, for cheap! - of course still using your tried and tru amp to drive it all.
I've always said it, and I'll say it again. I'll NEVER spend $1000 for an AV receiver ever, period! What for? When I can have the same receiver for 10 to 20 cents on the dollar in a year or two, and just use it as a pre-pro if I want!
This of course is all concerned with using "receivers" in a system, basically. Otherwise, uhem...go pure separates, yeeeah. |
Hifihvn,
You don't get it. The reference I made was not about your reference to politics, but instead to the same type of flawed intelligence that's created two needless wars. They're equal in that they're both mired in flawed intelligencia.
Fact. I drove 7 ML's speakers in an all ML system with a Sunfire Ultimate II Receiver to greater than adequate levels, without once experiencing any issues whatsoever. Ironically enough, but not to those who've actually owned Sunfire amps, the amplifier is the strongest suit of the receiver you seem so bent against, even though you've never heard or used one.
By your own admission you've never heard the Sunfire Ultimate, let alone had the opportunity to hear it in an all ML system. All you've provided as repetitive diatribe is the sound of a blank page read from some reviewers comments.
What's that sound like? Oh that's right, it's dead silence.
It's pointless for someone to comment on any component without having first hand experience to share. All of your comments are based upon someone else's experience: this reviewer said, and that reviewer said. What's your experience...by your own admission you've got none. The flaw in your logic is equal to someone refusing to view a movie based upon a reviewer's negative feedback.
The only opinion that matters is what's between my ears while I'm sampling a product in my own humble abode. Reviewers opinions are meaningless, as is forum commentary from those who've no first hand knowledge of a product. Again, that's the same type of ignorant logic that's directly responsible for the creation of unnecessary death, destruction, and mayhem. |
Hifihvn,
I don't know about the Sunfire factory, but the output devices.....International Recitifier devices were made right here in Southern California.....At least Carver USED these devices in past designs. I am admittedly not current. |
I have the Marantz sr9300 (several years old) and I am very pleased with the audio output on stereo or mono depending on the source.I also utilize it for SACD for the few disks that i do have. I know most "knowledgeable" folks will say separates are the only way to get hi end audio sound and this may be the case, but my Marantz SR9300 coupled with my analog source and Klipshorns (for stereo) more than satisfies my sweet tooth for clean sound especially in the analog arena.
Now, it is not a 200 Dollar reciever as it was the topend av reciever for Marantz when it came out around 2000-1.
|
"Now, it is not a 200 Dollar reciever as it was the topend av reciever for Marantz when it came out around 2000-1."
As was the $5k retail Sunfire Ultimate Receiver when it was released, but that's meaningless to the naysayer's on this board who've not sampled any product beyond a reviewers suggestions or a personal bias. You can lead some folks to water but...and that's as it should be. I've owned mega priced gear, and it's not that much better to justify its price. That's my point. |
Do as I say,not as I do.Its not good enough for me,but I'm telling you it is good enough for you.That is the idea I'm getting from Coltane1.As a retired law enforcement official ,he is used to giving orders.If he changed over to a receiver for all system ,then he may be a little more convincing.
Coltrane1,I have heard the receiver.I can say that it is not high end to my ears,and others.Switch over yourself,since you keep saying how good it is. |
|
the single biggest step i ever made was tossing a Pioneer HT receiver in the dumpster and getting a seperate amp and preamp- big big leap forward, and i have never been tempted to try another receiver. Even most integrateds fall far short of high end sound. imho |
Hifihvn,
If we're going to paraphrase in a forum as common courtesy the least we can do is to quote another correctly.
I've emphasized that
A) I used the Ultimate in the context of a home theater setting
B) that I found its performance good enough to stand alone on its own merits and therefore good enough to be used in the context of a 2 channel system and
C) I don't give orders or recommendations what decisions others should make regarding their purchases.
I've only commented on what my personal experience was with this receiver, which by the way cannot be compared or categorized with a run of the mill Pioneer or other traditional type receiver. The Ultimate is anything but a standard receiver.
It may only be my experience but I've discovered components have a way of convincing themselves to us rather than requiring others convince us of their merit. But one has to actually own or in the least have long term use of a component to establish its actual merit.
However, it's quite interesting that so many posts later you're now attempting to establish that you've at least "heard" it, almost as if to attempt to establish credibility to your obvious biases. But we'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you've at least heard it. So, you've heard it, and didn't experience it to your liking. I owned it and found it an excellent standalone choice to which one could base their entire system. To each their own, and that's as it should be. As a personal habit I always operate a discrete 2 channel system separate from HT, but if I didn't I could live very happily with the Ultimate all on its own.
Another case solved :)
Enjoy! |
No,
ummmm, what, ummm no!
Larry |
Ive ran aeon i's and scripts on receivers in a 6 channel setup. No issues. If a old yamaha flagship RX-V1 with low power output could do this, I'm sure there are many current receivers that can also.
I prefer seperates. Even cheap Emotiva....but receivers can sound nice too. |
I've owned an avr600 for almost a year now, and I have to say it has some go. It actually is a true 120w/ch over 4/8ohm. 150w for 2ch stereo direct mode. There are test results proving that its a true 120w, but I don't remember where I saw it.
Sound wise though it is pretty damn good for the money. I've compared it directly against a Simaudio moon integrated i3.3, and it sounded pretty much identical to the avr600. Pretty nice considering the i3.3 is $4k for 2ch and the avr600 is 7ch with 5ch bi-amping with a ton of features for $5k. It is a remarkable feat that Arcam has achieved. I even thought the avr600 sounds better than alot of seperates out there. Don't hate me, but I think it sounds better than krell, and rotel seperates. My $.02 |
I own and use a sunfire ultimate (first edition) in a HT context and with a VAC Avatar Super in pass through mode. This receiver is tremendously powerful and I can believe it would drive multiple difficult speaker loads. As for sound quality for music through the main speakers it does not compare to the VAC and this is consistent with two different sets of speakers.
When I go out of town I often hook the speakers directly to the sunfire so that when my family is watching tv or movies they are not using the tubes up in the VAC. I sometimes forget and will instantly notice the difference if I forget to get the VAC back in the game. I have also tried to listen when my VAC has been out of action, waiting for new tubes, etc. and I don't even bother anymore.
Although this is a narrow sample, it has convinced me that there is a big difference between components designed for 2 channel and for HT applications and the best overall configuration is a good receiver used in tandem with a high quality 2 channel with pass through gear.
Sunfire is great for HT but if you are a serious about 2 channel then I would recommend 2 channel gear. |
Of course the VAC will sound "different." It's a tube amp. So often audiophiles categorize different as better. I don't confuse different with better. Different is simply that. I own some fairly hi priced gear, but keep the Sunfire around just to have on hand for it does everything meaning, providing an am-fm tuner, phonostage, and of course 2 channel audio. I actually don't use it in the home theater room.
But in the Sunfire's stead it will do something an ordinary tube amp won't do. It'll drive CLS's, whereas they'll eat most tube amps for lunch. As always the case there's no hard and fast rule in audio. What works for one doesn't work for everyone. It works for me, what works for someone else is their choice. Viva la difference! |
