Billie or Ella? Maria or Renata? Technique or feeling?
I stand back to no one in my admiration for Ella Fitzgerald's technique but all the vocal fireworks make for precious little emotion. Billie Holiday on the other hand makes you feel she's singing just for you.
Technique vs emotion also goes in listening to Renata Tebaldi (superb technique) and Maria Callas who like Lady Day makes you feel she's singing just for you.
David Oistrakh was a violinist who combined flawless technique with raw emotion. Sviatoslav Richter was his counterpart on piano. Their modern day successors are Julia Fischer on violin and Daniil Trifonov on piano.
i don’t buy your assumption at all regarding jazz singers. I don’t know about opera or violinist but I’m a huge fan of Early Jazz vocalists. Billie Holiday - April In Paris Ella Fitzgerald & Louis Armstrong - April in Paris (OK she does have a little help) Fine and mellow Billie Ella And just to switch it up Hurrah for the Riff Raff I wouldn’t say there is more emotion just different emotions. Ella has a lilt of happiness as a compared to the sadness Billie portrays.
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As @hilde45 said, one can’t really argue taste. To me, there is a perfection to Ella’s singing that can seem a bit cool emotionally. Her intonation is beyond perfect -- I’ve never heard a singer do what she does, and so smoothly. I love listening to her singing, and then I move on for a while. My own tastes run towards the grittier sounding singers such as Abbey Lincoln, Betty Carter, Carmen McRae (especially as she aged), Shirley Horn. The latter two were also fine pianists. Each of them knew how to bend pitch and timing to aim for the heart, and in Carter’s case, sometimes her inventiveness made me laugh. I’m trying to get to know some of the newer singers who are interesting, not just blond and sultry. Some I’m enjoying are Champian Fuller, Cécile McLoren Salvant, Chantal Chamberlain, and Tierney Sutton. So much talent! Who are the great new male vocalists? |
Feeling, every time for me, though I must confess that Billie Holiday gives me a headache every time. An appalling voice, down there with Adele!
Whereas with technique, there’s normally very little to disagree about. Hank Marvin, Jimmy Hendrix and Eric Clapton are all good technicians despite their obvious differences.
You’re often better off with performers that seem to have a good balance of both - the Beatles, Led Zeppelin, Elvis Presley, Judy Garland, Frank Sinatra, Louis Armstrong, the Smiths etc.
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Ella's best years are the Decca and early Verve. Particularly with minimal accompaniment. "vocal fireworks make for precious little emotion." Maybe you're referring to the later 60's and forward schmaltzy, overproduced "pop" Ella that many think of when she's mentioned? Billie's work up thru the 50's is where she peaked. Billie vs. Ella? You can't go there....you just can't!
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I understand your point. When I was introduced to jazz music Ella was my go to female vocalist. With more exposure and experience my preferences have changed. I much prefer Sarah Vaughan and definitely Carmen McRae. More interesting, compelling and emotionally engaging. They pull me into the music in a way that Ella just does not for me. Another example, early on Oscar Peterson, later, Thelonious Monk. Same reason. Certainly, horses for courses. Charles |
@tablejockey Black Coffee b gr8. Is there anything it can't do? All seriousness aside, I'll have the pleasure of checking out early Ella which I confess to not having explored. @tablejockey Maybe you're referring to the later 60's and forward schmaltzy, overproduced "pop" Ella that many think of when she's mentioned? Well early 60's. Clap Hands, Here Comes Charlie! We are lucky to have Audiogon where you get in depth knowledgeable posts. I wuz jus reading about how motorcycle forums died under the withering influence of twitter. |
Sarah or Ella? At first I like Sarah more for more interesting way of singing - vocalizing, suspending timing etc., but at the end Ella won me over with her immaculate timing and swing (discipline). It is all matter of acquired taste, for instance, Jimmie Scott, that I adore, is not for everybody. He had poor voice and at the same time was regarded by other Jazz singers as "Singers singer" - not Sinatra or anybody else, but him.
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That would be my dream. Unfortunately, he passed away. |
@danager. Re:clip of Tebaldi and Callas. Well you tried. More than that I cannot ask of any man. Or woman. They do say that the fastest way to empty a room at a hifi show is to put on some opera. Tebaldi was technically superior to Callas. Tebaldi was smoother and in this clip you can clearly hear the crackling in Callas voice as even her most ardent fan will admit. Yet with her more limited voice, Callas conveys more heartfelt emotion. I can't explain in a technical way how she achieves this, not being a singer. Her fans just know it as the Callas Magic. The scene is from Puccini's Tosca with Tebaldi and Callas in the title role. Tosca is being seduced by the chief of police in exchange for the release of her lover from prison and torture. Here she mourns her predicament in the song I Lived for Art - Visse d'Arte singing that she lived a life of innocence dedicated to her craft. In reality, Callas lived the life being partnered to the boor Aristotle Onassis who didn't appreciate her singing. He once questioned why she continued singing since he had enough money for both of them. (You may remember him for marrying Jackie Kennedy. It was considered scandalous at the time for a former First Lady to marry for money. Ted Kennedy brokered the deal in person.) In the opera, Tosca stabs the chief of police to death rather than submit to his blackmail. I always imagine Callas is thinking Take that, Onassis! as she plunges the scissors into her fictional foe so convincing is she in that role.
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Technical proficiency is only another tool that may or may not assist the artist in achieving the ultimate goal: cause one to feel something. To reduce an artist to a polarized representation of some manufactured binary makes no sense. If Ella doesn’t make you feel anything, then, there ya go. Problem solved. Is this because she has “too much technical proficiency?” Either way, it doesn’t matter, because she doesn’t move you. If Mariah Carey moves you just as much as Patti Smith, well, there ya go. Either way, any such judgment on the singers’ technical proficiency is irrelevant. |
@edcyn. Now we're remembering Callas, she was an audiophile. At the end of her life, she spent her days listening to her old recordings on reel tape. Prolly master copies. There is a photo of her in her apartment with her tape machine but even the all knowing internet couldn't find it. I'm guessing Revox A77 which was the go to machine in those far off days. And a Furtwangler fan! See John Hunt's bio of Maria Callas. He was driving her and Beethoven came on the radio. Arriving at their destination, Callas insisted on staying in the car wanting to know the name of the conductor. Upon finding out she poured scorn. Ha! That's what passes for conducting today. We had Furtwangler. |
@tylermunns To reduce an artist to a polarized representation of some manufactured binary makes no sense.
One man's reduction is another man's observation. e.g. Steve Vai shredder extraordinaire, but to what end? Technique per se is OK viz John McLaughlin who is shreddier than Steve but there is a musical point to all those rapid fire notes. I got nuttin' agin' Steve you understand owning two of his signature guitars. Luv the monkey grip.
Steve Vai Zappa band. McLaughlin Miles Davis band. I rest my case. |
"I stand back to no one in my admiration for Ella Fitzgerald's technique but all the vocal fireworks make for precious little emotion. Billie Holiday on the other hand makes you feel she's singing just for you." You do realize that you're describing your subjective experience here as though it were objective, right? The issue of whether or not an artist communicates emotion is complicated by the fact that the listener is an integral part of the experience. What the listener perceives is deeply conditioned by all sorts of subjective factors. I've played CDs that I find very emotive for friends, only to witness them sitting impassively. Clearly they've had a very different response. I don't believe this disparity can be explained simply by analyzing how technically proficient the artist in question may or may not be. I'm guessing there are many fans of guitar shredders who'll assert they experience intense emotion from listening to their idols' gymnastics. For me, it's about as gripping as watching someone lift weights but they'd probably find Otis Rush or Roy Buchanan boring. One guy who started out as a shredder and evolved into (as I hear him) a highly emotive player is Ritchie Kotzen. His Live in Japan YouTube video is a great example. Great topic, BTW.
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@stuartk You do realize that you're describing your subjective experience here as though it were objective, right? You do realize you're not me so how do you know my subjective experience isn't objective, right? @stuartk I've played CDs that I find very emotive for friends, only to witness them sitting impassively. You need better friends. I kid. I kid. Anecdotally, I had the opposite experience playing a semi bombastic recording to a friend who rocketed out of his chair exclaiming Wow! That's the kind of full orchestral music I love! I was taken aback at the extent of his enthusiasm albeit gratified that he liked the recording so much (Kyung Hwa Chung playing Prokofiev's Violin Concertos). @stuartk I'm guessing there are many fans of guitar shredders who'll assert they experience intense emotion from listening to their idols' gymnastics. I have heard that proposition from fans of the violinist Jascha Heifetz who had superhuman technique. With age, I can meet them halfway. e.g. Heifetz/Reiner in the Tchaikovsky Violin Concerto. Nice nod to Mr. Buchanan. This technique vs feeling carries over into other walks of life. My chess hero Tal was known as the Magician from Riga. He would make one spectacular sacrifice after another until finally he somehow had his opponent cornered. His opposite was the calculating Keres but sometimes they'd jump into each others territory and Keres would play with flair while Tal became all neat and tidy. I have to mention Ayrton Senna in F1 and his nominal teammate Alain Prost. There is a famous clip of Senna at Donnington in the rain coming from fifth place to pass the greats of his day as if they were standing still to take the lead. All before the first lap was over! Back to hifi. If you take the line that all is subjective to its logical end, what are we even doing here? Does it mean anything when someone says that a particular piece of equipment transported him to musical nirvana? We can cloak our opinions in objective sounding language like the midrange was superb or I could really see the images of the instruments but it's all subjective is it not? Only if we accept that there is value in the subjective is there any point to a forum like Audiogon. |
@stuartk Otis Rush and Roy Buchanan! Great guitar player mentions! If we were trying to reach the most legitimate, objectively, empirically-based rankings of certain performers, technical proficiency would have to be taken into consideration. To stay on the topic of guitar players, while I would never personally (subjectively) prefer, say, Yngwie Malmsteen and Eddie Van Halen to, say, David Lindley or Jesse Ed Davis, I would have to rank Yngwie and Eddie higher. They’re just too good, and their disagreeable music is not enough to trump their obviously superior technical proficiency. |
Excellent post, stuartk. You wrote much of what I was about to write. You are exactly correct re the role of listener bias. For me an even more interesting question is why, when considering artists in the admittedly very small group at the very top level of excellence, some listeners feel the need to declare one or the other “the best” as if that opinion is some sort of objective truth. It is instead, and as you point out, at least in part a reflection of the listener’s bias. Moreover, to not keep a more open mind to this reality doesn’t enhance one’s acumen as a listener; it limits it instead.
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Feeling. Callas all the time. Listen to Sumi Jo for technique and no feeling. However it is possible to achieve both together - Schwarzkopf, Gruberova Norman or, Netrebko. chockwan: "They do say that the fastest way to empty a room at a hifi show is to put on some opera." Perhaps, but the friends I attend with ask for opera rather than pop music. |
I’m a great admirer of Billie Holiday’s singing and have most of her recordings. I would like to acquire some Ella Fitzgerald jazz recordings as well. Most of what you most commonly see of her work are the the "Songbook" type recordings like the Cole Porter or Gershwin songbook or recordings like Porgy and Bess with Louis Armstrong. There must be outstanding straight jazz Ella Fitzgerald albums you might recommend that I could search out. Nothing against the above mentioned recordings, which many of you must enjoy, they’re just not to my individual taste. Thanks for any suggestions. Mike |
@skyscraper So as to properly address your query, I’m curious as to what you mean by, “straight jazz.” What would be an example of such? |
As far as vocalists go, Ella isn’t “straight jazz.” When we talk of vocalists of this ilk, (Holiday, Vaughn, Washington, Sinatra, etc.) I don’t consider any of them “straight jazz.” I think of Abbey Lincoln who, by the 1960s, was singing real-deal jazz music with the great Max Roach (her husband). Brilliant. Those previously mentioned vocalists are singing the songs of Jerome Kern, Cole Porter, the Gershwins, Harold Arlen, Rodgers & Hart, Irving Berlin, Rodgers & Hammerstein, etc. These are some of the greatest pop songwriters in history, but not what I would call jazz.
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tylermunns, that is a terribly narrow definition of what a Jazz singer is; and one that I could not disagree with more. Of the singers you mention, I may grant you Sinatra……maybe. However, Ellla, Vaughn not Jazz singers?! Ella Fitzgerald, with the possible exception of Eddie Henderson and today’s Kurt Elling was possibly the greatest vocal improviser ever. There have been very few vocalists who have had the vocal technique and, more importantly, the command of harmony and the general vocabulary of improvised Jazz to be able to scat in a way competitive with good instrumental Jazz improvisers. Surely, that alone puts her in the Jazz category. Of course, all this in her generational style which was rooted in Swing and, as you say, American Songbook standards. Btw, the vast majority of Jazz instrumentalist also used, and still use, the Great American Songbook as the primary source of their material. So….. Abbey Lincoln was fabulous no doubt. Being a civil rights activist her later material reflects this. Her “protest songs” during the time that she was married to Roach were a reflection of the social climate of the time; just as was some of the instrumental Jazz of that time. However, her earlier recordings were centered on the American Songbook. Does this mean she wasn’t a Jazz singer then? |
Maybe I’ve used poor terminology. to describe what I’m looking for in Ella Fitgerald recordings. I’d prefer to avoid the Gershwin or Cole Porter Great American songbook type material is all. For instance, I’ve most all of Miles Davis records through 1977, but rarely play his Porgy and Bess, Sketches of Spain or Quiet Nights recordings. For whatever reason, valid or not, I find that kind of material annoying and that’s what I’d like to avoid. Maybe her Duke Ellington Songbook album would be okay. So if any of you could recommend any Ella albums like I’m poorly trying to describe, I’d appreciate your recommendations. Thanks. Mike
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Good recommendations by tablejockey. It’s interesting that the distinction is being made re “song book” material as concerns both Ella and Billie. The fact is that most of the material recorded by Billie is in fact, and like Ella’s…….also part of the Great American Songbook. Two different singers with two different styles. Jazz is, stylistically, a lot of different things depending on the particular artist. In fact, individuality of style is one of the. key ingredients of Jazz. Ella’s was not as gritty and pained as was Billie’s. Does that make her less of a Jazz singer? I don’t think so. It’s also interesting that singers seem to be accorded less stylistic latitude than instrumentalists. Was Lester Young less of a Jazz player than Coltrane? After all, he had a beautifully light and smooth tone with perfect intonation (sound familiar?). Coltrane, on the other hand, had tons of grit and angst in his playing and tended to play a little sharp.
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I'm a little late to the party...but The Ella "songbooks" are simply outstanding. She is so polished and oh the ease of her singing is enthralling to me. I saw her at Radio City Musical Hall and she was one of the few artists that had the audience in rapt attention the entire time. Piano, bass, drum kit and that amazing voice. The other was Frank at Madison Square Garden "The Main Event", you could hear a pin drop in the place. He had a big band/orchestra backing him up. Frank gets you with the phraseology/timing. Regards, barts +1 @hilde45 so true so true
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Frogman, very nice selections all. Thanks for posting them. Lester Young is a particular favorite and it was nice to hear him playing alongside Ella. I love any of the music where he accompanied Billie Holiday too. Both he, Coltrane and Charlie Parker, Coleman Hawkins are my all time sax favorites, all geniuses in their own right, just like Ella and Billie in theirs. Mike
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@skyscraper Both he (Lester Young), Coltrane and Charlie Parker, Coleman Hawkins are my all time sax favorites, all geniuses in their own right, just like Ella and Billie in theirs. Prolly going to ignite yet another flame war, but what about Sonny?
At 4 AM in the studio, he announces I'm hot now. To the dismay of the engineer..
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@frogman I noted a clear distinction in my initial post of “the ‘60s stuff” in regards to Lincoln. When I think of jazz vocalists, I think of people singing jazz music. I don’t consider the likes of the masterful pop songwriters I mentioned to be jazz. They wrote immaculately crafted 3-minute pop songs. They may be all fancy and stuff, with someone like, say, Ella Fitzgerald exhibiting incredible vocal prowess and improvisational acumen, but it’s often still fancy pop songs. She ain’t singing the likes of Parker/Gillespie/Davis/Monk/Mingus/Coltrane etc. This is why I mentioned ‘60s era Abbey Lincoln as an example of a vocalist singing jazz music. Perhaps others may provide input in this regard. That’s how I see it. |
These categories were invented by the salespeople at record companies so minimum wage store clerks would know into which bins to stick the records. With digital freeing us from physical storage everything can be reduced to two categories: good music and bad music. I vote Lawrence Welk as first inductee to the latter. I cringed when he came on TV and my uncle said You like music. Here's the show for you. And to be polite I had to watch. Prolly there's a Nurse Ratched somewhere saying Lawrence Welk is all some of the patients here have. * cultural reference |
