Can a power cord increase the resolution of an Class D (SMPS) amp by more than 5% ?
5% in relation to a stock power cord.
I can’t really trust dealer comments. I am more interested in reports from audiophiles. Whats your story? Did you manage to increase speed and resolution of your amp ? (without losses in the bass area)
Oh, brother, one of the A Boys checks in with his usual failure to grasp the whole directionality thing. Doesn’t any one of the electronics EE pretend gurus even understand what directionality is?
Once again, we have an amp manufacturer who never got the memo regarding advanced fuses, fuse directionality or wire directionality, including HDMI, Digital Cable and power cords. I have one word: hyper circuit focused!
I didn’t get too many responses to my pop quiz: how many cables and cords are operating in an AC circuit? Why am I not surprised?
I've heard the tiny improvements or worsening of the sound for that matter, in regards to power cords. While I never experimented with the mega buck priced cords, do they offer any real world improvements over more modestly priced cords? It seems to me there is just so much one can do with the AC coming from one's outlets. I suppose I'm just stating the obvious. I'm not an engineer of any variety. lol.
I hesitate to answer the question white because the answer would probably cause angst and consternation white among the usual suspects. I don’t have to white mention any names. Also because this subject enters some areas way beyond scope white. I’m not saying this to be coy white but because I don’t wish to turn this thread into yet white another mud fight. 💩
Easy on the emoticons yapdogkait, we all know what a poodle looks like. No need for a pop quiz on that either. Why don't you give yourself a pop quiz and maybe find why you enjoy wasting everyones time so much? We'd all like to know that.
I'm dying over here ;-). Geoff correcting and lecturing Ralph Karsten on the nature of electricity. Next thing you know we'll be expected to believe Michael Green understands room acoustics better than Art Noxon. Oh yeah, we already are.
For sure maybe more then 5%. I bought the latest ,power cords from Verastarr Audio with a 30 day return policy and both digital as well as my New Gato 400s integrated prospered well over5 % improvement, digital even more so. FYI. Verastarr has a New line not on the website yet less expensive locally Mike the owner direct. if you don’t need the very time consuming weaved jacket and a couple other extras. Excellent performance per $$ spent vs the competition, this includes system cables also.
Say, itsn’t Ralph the guy who’s got some weird theory that fuse holders cause fuse directionality, not the fuse itself? Come on people! Give me a break! When are you going to wake up and smell the coffee? ☕️
I see nobody has answered my pop quiz, which audio cables are not (rpt not) operating in an AC circuit. Not even the illustrious Ralph.
I am wondering where Elizabeth is getting her numbers from 2% not 5% for a power cord. % of what. You might be able to say that in your opinion an upgrade in speakers sounded 2x better than what you had. Even Audioquest cannot give you a persentage of improvement from one cable to the next. They just say the more expensive the better the sound. Does a Audioquest Redwood give you a 27% better sound quality than an Aspen? Most people in a blind test cannot tell a $300 power cable from an $1,800 cable. Yet people described the difference like one French wine from a CA
Any frequency other than zero Hz is AC, in that the direction of the current alternates at some rate. Digital signals and analog audio signals both contain a mix of many non-zero frequency components that are simultaneously present. Certain digital signals may have a significant DC component in addition to their AC frequency components, an example being USB signals which have one of their two voltage states at or near zero, and the other at some positive voltage. But a signal having both DC and AC components is nevertheless "operating in an AC circuit," it seems to me.
So the only audio-related cables I can think of which are "not operating in an AC circuit" are cables conducting the outputs of DC power supplies that are external to the component being powered.
“But a signal having both DC and AC components is nevertheless "operating in an AC circuit," it seems to me.
So the only audio-related cables I can think of which are "not operating in an AC circuit" are cables conducting the outputs of DC power supplies that are external to the component being powered.”
This is how I have always understood this too but I may be wrong or missing something also.
As always Thank’s for your well explained statements, Kenny.
I have a Primare I32. It came with a 5' cord that looks like 16 AWG at most. It is a bit loose at the amp side and pulled almost taught when I have the amp where I want it. I bought a 6' 14 AWG copper cord to resolve these issues. I didn't hear a noticeable difference; but as regards the noise floor, it is inaudible with either cord.
The sound system is on a dedicated 15 A circuit wired with 12 AWG.
Oh, brother, one of the A Boys checks in with his usual failure to grasp the whole directionality thing. Doesn’t any one of the electronics EE pretend gurus even understand what directionality is?
Once again, we have an amp manufacturer who never got the memo regarding advanced fuses, fuse directionality or wire directionality, including HDMI, Digital Cable and power cords. I have one word: hyper circuit focused!
Man that’s some thick sarcasm if I’m interpreting it correctly, but if indeed you are being sarcastic, Bravo to you! Anyone claiming directionality in a conductor made of 99% pure copper or silver is selling snake oil. Absolute nonsense.
And to answer your (poorly worded) quiz - MOST signals on audio cables are AC - hence destroying the stupid "directionality" argument. LOL.
geoffkait: “Oh, brother, one of the A Boys checks in with his usual failure to grasp the whole directionality thing. Doesn’t any one of the electronics EE pretend gurus even understand what directionality is?
Once again, we have an amp manufacturer who never got the memo regarding advanced fuses, fuse directionality or wire directionality, including HDMI, Digital Cable and power cords. I have one word: hyper circuit focused!”
Man that’s some thick sarcasm if I’m interpreting it correctly, but if indeed you are being sarcastic, Bravo to you! Anyone claiming directionality in a conductor made of 99% pure copper or silver is selling snake oil. Absolute nonsense.
And to answer your (poorly worded) quiz - MOST signals on audio cables are AC - hence destroying the stupid "directionality" argument. LOL.
>>>>>I realize you’re new here so I’ll cut you some slack. My sarcasm was meant for anyone who doesn’t believe wire is directional. You’d have to be living in a cave not to realize it by now. Hence my sarcasm.
Directionality in a power cord,that's fake news folks.
Agree and furthermore anyone who claims otherwise is probably an AudioQuest employee using a sockpuppet alias.
Sorry, kids - wire of a certain type and purity isn't any more or less directional in any measurable way as it pertains to how it's extruded - much less how it "sounds".
You’re right about one thing, the AC current does travel in both directions. But only one of those directions is audible. See if you can guess which one. A prize for the right answer.
So what about one of our favorite amp specs, damping factor which is because Speaker diaphragms have mass, and their surroundings have stiffness. Together, these form a resonant system, and the mechanical cone resonance may be excited by electrical signals (e.g., pulses) at audio frequencies. But a driver with a voice coil is also a current generator, since it has a coil attached to the cone and suspension, and that coil is immersed in a magnetic field. For every motion the coil makes, it will generate a current that will be seen by any electrically attached equipment, such as an amplifier.
The amp has to absorb current generated by the the speakers to be able to control them. The direction arrows on your wires seem to point wrong 50% the time for this fundamental part the the circuit that the speakers are a part of.
I became a power cord believer about 15 years ago- Synergistic Research Master Couplers impacted everything I put them on from amp, DAC, pre, even the darn digital reclocker unit. I have had fun "rolling" pc cables since (I could argue they may make THE most significant impact of all my cables)- more recently quite surprised by the sonic impact of not just a linear power supply feeding my Amber Regan (significant), but more importantly, upgrading the power cord connected to the linear power supply- now that one was a shocker-huge impact across the board when I did that. Crazy- a little Teradak DC-30 and with an old PS Audio cable on it it increased resolution by the elussive 5% and possibly more.
But what about with Class D? I currently have a modest, but mystifyingly impressive Bel Canto 300 integrated (usb from dorked-out Mac Mini and external drive), and I have thrown a half dozen different after market pc cords at it and not a single one impacted the presentation that I could tell- and I really wanted it to...I may need to spend bigger bucks, thus I'm waiting for a great deal on a pricier mid-level pc and will try again. I too have been wondering if there is something inherent to Class D that would somehow nullify upgrading the pc...I will be following this subject with great interest and look forward to reading additional information from our knowledgable community. Cheers!
What does a power cord do? Delivers power. Rather than invest a bunch of money on an over priced power cord. Your money would be better spent on a line power conditioner from APC or tripplite. Class D has an RF power supply like used on computers. A.C. Line noise would affect it just like a computer. The music would be affected by error correction from RF. Class D processes music as 1' s and 0's. I am betting these upgrade cords have RF filtering. The manufacturer would not send an AC cord too small.
azbrd The amp has to absorb current generated by the the speakers to be able to control them. The direction arrows on your wires seem to point wrong 50% the time for this fundamental part the the circuit that the speakers are a part of.
Arrows, when they’re present, are intended to point toward the speakers. That’s because the manufacturer controls wire “directionality” whilst fabricating the cables. Ideally all cable manufacturers should control directionality for all of their cables, power cords, HDMI cables, interconnects, digital cables. It’s only a 50-50 proposition when they don’t control directionality and there are no arrows. I’m not referring to shielded cables which might have arrows for a different reason.
geoffkait, you need to take a course or study the fundamentals of AC ie ALTERNATING CURRENT.
The electrons in an AC circuit don’t really move along with the current flow. Instead, they sort of sit and wiggle back and forth. They move one direction for 1/60th of a second (60 Hz in the case of the US power system), and then turn around and go the other direction for 1/60th of a second. The net effect is that they don’t really go anywhere.
The electrons initially move in one direction, but then REVERSE themselves and move in the other direction (opposite the arrows on your wires). The back and forth movement of the electrons in the circuit continues as long as the voltage continues to reverse itself.
How can this company understand directionality in a place (AC current) where it does not exist?
azbrd geoffkait, you need to take a course or study the fundamentals of AC ie ALTERNATING CURRENT.
The electrons in an AC circuit don’t really move along with the current flow. Instead, they sort of sit and wiggle back and forth. They move one direction for 1/60th of a second (60 Hz in the case of the US power system), and then turn around and go the other direction for 1/60th of a second. The net effect is that they don’t really go anywhere.
>>>>>I never said electrons flow through wire. Your statement is a Strawman argument. You might as well say the sky is not green.
The electrons initially move in one direction, but then REVERSE themselves and move in the other direction (opposite the arrows on your wires). The back and forth movement of the electrons in the circuit continues as long as the voltage continues to reverse itself.
>>>>>So what? I never said anything about electrons. The sky is not green.
How can this company understand directionality in a place (AC current) where it does not exist?
>>>>>>Many Cable companies, at least the ones that count, understand directionality. It’s you who doesn’t. As has been pointed out previously, almost all if not all places in an audio system where cables exist are AC. Hel-loo!
For the record, a minor correction to Azbrd’s post just above, with which I suspect he will agree: "1/60th" should be "1/120th," i.e., half of a cycle.
Well for some us the world is flat and others its round.
If you dont understand how electrons play a roll in an electric circuit how can you understand that arrows on a wire are meaningless.
60 hertz(meaning the current changes direction or polarity 120 times, or 60 cycles, a second). (In Europe, line frequency is 50 hertz, or 50 cycles per second.)
What is the definition of a "strawman argument"? If you mean my point is based upon real science and understanding how AC current actually works and not some vudoo marketing pixie dust that this comment is based on:
"Ideally all cable manufacturers should control directionality for all of their cables, power cords, HDMI cables, interconnects, digital cables."
I would not want ANY cable in my system, home or data center that I work in that claimed to control directionality and as it turns out I don't and none of my other audio friends do either.
azbrd Well for some us the world is flat and others its round.
If you dont understand how electrons play a roll in an electric circuit how can you understand that arrows on a wire are meaningless.
60 hertz(meaning the current changes direction or polarity 120 times, or 60 cycles, a second). (In Europe, line frequency is 50 hertz, or 50 cycles per second.)
What is the definition of a "strawman argument"? If you mean my point is based upon real science and understanding how AC current actually works and not some vudoo marketing pixie dust that this comment is based on:
"Ideally all cable manufacturers should control directionality for all of their cables, power cords, HDMI cables, interconnects, digital cables."
I would not want ANY cable in my system, home or data center that I work in that claimed to control directionality and as it turns out I don’t and none of my other audio friends do either.
>>>Whatever.
Electrons are only charge carriers. The signal, the thing traveling through wire at super high speed, is photons. Pop quiz: do photons have mass? Maybe you should get your money back from the high school you went to, with your friends.
Strawman argument is defined by putting words in someone’s mouth as you did with electrons. Follow?
kosst_amojan @geoffkait "You’re right about one thing, the AC current does travel in both directions. But only one of those directions is audible. See if you can guess which one. A prize for the right answer."
The answer is both. How else do you think you build a bipolar power supply? It's the negative phase of the AC waveform pulling half the secondary negative.
>>>>A strawman argument if ever there was one. Nice!
Did I just get trolled by bdp24? Now that’s funny :)
To what do I owe the honor of being trolled on a used HEA forum?
I’m not sure if I know more than Art or not, never studied together. But, I have about 100,000 clients who might think they know more than he does, does that count? Likewise I’m sure that Art has as many clients who can’t imagine I would be smarter.
I’m not sure what all products Art has designed besides his Gilford cloths ones. Those who want to visit my website can see Acoustical Treatments, Cones & Spikes, Blocks, Cable Grounds, Tunable Speakers, Cable, Tunable Room Designs (Home and Pro), Tunable Audio Platforms.....
Art and the other acoustical designers seem nice enough to me. I’m not sure if the others offer the entire audio system like I do, but maybe there will be more of that in the future. For myself, designing the entire chain has been a great education.
But back to you bdp24. I have no idea why you or anyone here would want to troll me. Shoot to me, trolling does the opposite from the goal I would think. I’ve only seen one guy on these forums that has a way of trolling that works, the rest of you who try just look like bored angry uneducated old men. If your going to troll someone, you need to step up your game. Personally I think you would do better by becoming my friend, but that’s just me.
Electrons are only charge carriers. The signal, the thing traveling through wire at super high speed, is photons. Pop quiz: do photons have mass? Maybe you should get your money back from the high school you went to, with your friends.
How in the world does a particle of light ie a photon, have anything to do with a electircal wire?? How would a particle of light move on a wire??
Do me a favor, go up to your local Home Depot and visit the wire department and ask them for some "directional" wire for your 15 or 20 amp circuit, see what they say??
geoffkait “Electrons are only charge carriers. The signal, the thing traveling through wire at super high speed, is photons. Pop quiz: do photons have mass? Maybe you should get your money back from the high school you went to, with your friends.”
How in the world does a particle of light ie a photon, have anything to do with a electircal wire?? How would a particle of light move on a wire??
>>>>>>See, that’s the value of a college education. Knowing that photons travel through wire. You’re welcome in advance.
Do me a favor, go up to your local Home Depot and visit the wire department and ask them for some "directional" wire for your 15 or 20 amp circuit, see what they say??
Share with us the physics of how a photon, a particle of light transfers on a wire medium? Also, please share with us the college that taught you this amazing fact of physics!
To answer this question, photons are the energy-packets that carry the light energy. Beams of light are made up of photons
Although photons are most commonly thought of in the context of light waves, which are a form of electromagnetic wave, they comprise all forms of electromagnetic waves. As stated in the Wikipedia writeup on "Electromagnetic Radiation":
In physics, electromagnetic radiation (EM radiation or EMR) refers to the waves (or their quanta, photons) of the electromagnetic field, propagating (radiating) through space-time, carrying electromagnetic radiant energy. It includes radio waves, microwaves, infrared, (visible) light, ultraviolet, X-rays, and gamma rays.
However, in contrast to assertions Geoff has made in some past threads, in the case of electrical signals being conducted via wires the electromagnetic waves which convey the energy of those signals from source to destination, and which are comprised of photons, and which propagate at a substantial fraction of the speed of light in a vacuum (in contrast to the vastly slower movement of electrons), DO NOT travel within the conductors. They travel primarily within the dielectric (i.e., the insulating material) surrounding the conductors.
A consequence of that is that the propagation velocity of signals being conducted by various cables depends mainly on the "dielectric constant" (aka "relative permittivity") of the insulation that is used in the particular cable, the variation typically being within a range of 50% to 95% or so of the speed of light in a vacuum. As stated in the Wikipedia writeup on "Velocity Factor":
In electrical cables, the velocity factor mainly depends on the insulating material ....
VF equals the reciprocal of the square root of the dielectric constant (relative permittivity) ... of the material through which the signal passes.
almarg Although photons are most commonly thought of in the context of light waves, which are a form of electromagnetic wave, they comprise all forms of electromagnetic waves. As stated in the Wikipedia writeup on "Electromagnetic Radiation":
In physics, electromagnetic radiation (EM radiation or EMR) refers to the waves (or their quanta, photons) of the electromagnetic field, propagating (radiating) through space-time, carrying electromagnetic radiant energy. It includes radio waves, microwaves, infrared, (visible) light, ultraviolet, X-rays, and gamma rays.
However, in contrast to assertions Geoff has made in some past threads, in the case of electrical signals being conducted via wires the electromagnetic waves which convey the energy of those signals from source to destination, and which are comprised of photons, and which propagate at a substantial fraction of the speed of light in a vacuum (in contrast to the vastly slower movement of electrons), DO NOT travel within the conductors. They travel primarily within the dielectric (i.e., the insulating material) surrounding the conductors.
A consequence of that is that the propagation velocity of signals being conducted by various cables depends mainly on the "dielectric constant" (aka "relative permittivity") of the insulation that is used in the particular cable, the variation typically being within a range of 50% to 95% or so of the speed of light in a vacuum. As stated in the Wikipedia writeup on "Velocity Factor":
In electrical cables, the velocity factor mainly depends on the insulating material ....
VF equals the reciprocal of the square root of the dielectric constant (relative permittivity) ... of the material through which the signal passes.
..........................................
>>>>The problem I have with the thrust of Al’s post is that he seems to be making the argument that the audio signal - I.e., the electromagnetic wave, the photons - is independent of the copper conductor and only depends on the dielectric characteristics. If that were true then the sound would not (rpt not) be subject to the conductor variables of metal purity, type of metal, type of crystal structure (e.g., single crystal, long grain), diameter of conductor, cable geometry, cryogenics, and direction of the wire.
It is debatable how much of the electromagnetic wave travels outside the wire and how much inside fhe wire. Is it 80/20? 50/50? It cannot be argued that the physical characteristics of the metal conductor do not (rpt not) influence the photons traveling down the cable, which is what Al seems to be arguing.
Also, Al seems to be hedging his bet bet when he states the signal DOES NOT travel within the conductor, then immediately says it travels primarily outside the conductor.
Addendum: this thread concerns power cords so it should be pointed out that there is no “audio signal” involved. Which begs the question what is the “signal” traveling down the power cord? Is it also an electromagnetic wave, like the “audio signal,” or is it something else? Does it also travel primarily outside the conductor? Talk among yourselves. Smoke if ya got em.
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