One of my buds has a pair of the original Sonus Faber Concertino speakers(bi-wireable)partnered with a Peachtree Audio Decco,driven by a HP Laptop & cabled with all Audioquest copper cables(usb,power & speaker).While listening to my new Toy Monitors & Peachtree Audio MusicBox driven by an Asus Laptop recently he commented that he was able to hear treble frequencies(especially cymbals)on my system much better than on his & wondered if anything short of changing speakers could be done. I have read that Silver Plated Copper cables tend to sound a touch brighter than all copper & was wondering if you folks think switching to all Silver Plated Copper(i'm thinking Nordost or DH Labs)cables might bring the treble up a bit in his system? Thanks for your input,take care...
I am sort of amazed that no one other than Geared 4me has suggested listening angle could be the cause. The FIRST STEP in any speaker set up is being sure you are sitting within the speaker/tweeter "dispersion pattern". For example, if you are sitting above the tweeter, you may be out of the pattern won’t be hearing it correctly- usually much less top end. If your stands are too short, or your floor standers are too low compared to your couch, or your speakers get very narrow on vertical dispersion and you are slightly out of that pattern, your speakers will sound dark every time. Buying cables to make it brighter is fixing problem you may not have and just gets you further away from the real problem.
Look at your speaker’s vertical dispersion, which is typically 10-15 degrees in "height". This means that the speaker only sounds correct within this 10-15 degree area of vertical dispersion. A big generality, but is usually about right, is a tweeter typically shoots straight out on the upper angle (parallel to the floor) and the lower angle points down 10 to 15 degrees. Imagine your tweeter as a flashlight with a 15 degree pattern of light- its the same as that. This means you have to be within this area to hear it correctly as designed. So this is why we say your ear should line up with the tweeter or the speaker should be just slightly above your ear.
If you listen above this dispersion area, the tweeter output WILL be very low (by design) and the highs will appear to bad, low or even non existent. You can check what you situation is by just lowering yourself to be within that vertical dispersion angle and see if it gets better. If changing your height relative to the speaker makes it sound better, gives you more high end, then being at the wrong angle to the speaker is your entire problem. If it doesn’t get better with vertical changes in listening position, you have a different problem.
You can repeat this process with the horizontal plane as well, sit directly on center of one speaker at a time (turn off the other speaker so you can concentrate) L or R and then move slowly off that axis and see how the high end changes, and believe me-it does. Many speakers have poor vertical and or poor horizontal dispersion and require you be seated directly "on axis" (meaning pointed straight at your ears both vertically and horizontally) to hear it correctly. Sometimes the correct area is so small that just a tiny move of your head changes the speaker's sound drastically. This on axis listening position is what is called the "sweet spot" and can be small or large depending on many factors, sometimes having nothing to do with the speaker itself. It could also be your room and how reflective it is.
There are speakers that are better off axis and some that are terrible off axis. This "good off axis" is one of the features of a "better" loudspeaker that might be unnoticed on your first demo.
What you are describing is an amplitude problem, frequency response. He is using a computer and there are EQ plug ins that can be used to correct this. The smartest way to do this is to get a USB microphone with an amplitude program and measure the response of the speakers in his room. Then you adjust the EQ to get as flat as possible from 20 Hz to 20 kHz. Flat is always the best starting point. Next is to find the target curve that he likes best. The curve that most of us prefer will have the high frequencies rolled off at about 3 dB/octave from 2 kHz. 20 kHz will be about 9 to 12 dB down. Flat is usually too bright. Next will be a bass boost at 3 dB/oct from about 150 Hz down so the bass is up about 9 dB at 20 Hz. The only way your friend will get to know what he prefers is to play around with it and listen to different curves.
@deep_333well, I just did it: I replaced my previous speaker cables (silver plated copper + teflon) with some Duelund DCA cable, and it has shifted the tonality of the system, towards a darker, more laidback presentation. Just what I was hoping it would do.
It can be done the other way around too.
I vastly prefer to fine tune my system using cables than insert another active stage creating phase shifts / distortion.
Just a thought but can you make the cabinet "bigger"? Maybe take out some of the stuffing?
I once made a speaker with a cabinet that was too big (like 2x too big) and the sound was bright. Filling it up with blocks of wood, the sound became darker. Actually too dark now, so I am taking some blocks back out.
@freediverTry the Benchmark stack on it, AHB2 amp | LA4 preamp | DAC3B dac. You can always try this on a home trial or take a chance and buy used.
With warm speakers this stack would open up the sound. Doesn't the Decco have a tube in it. Warm speakers with a tube is not my type of system.
A cheaper option is a Class D like the PeachTree GAN400. I am putting my up for sale on USAM.
Put a streamer into the path instead of going direct via USB from the laptop. Not so much for your issue but to improve everything in the sound.
I have not heard the Decco but owned the PeachTree Nova 150. That is terrible compared to the new Peachtree gear such as the GAN400 and better yet, the GAN1 (but should modded it by tweakaudio). I replaced $15K of gear wit the $1200 GAN1 + $600 mods. However, that unit can ONLY stream via SPDIF, no analogue sources allowed. I used ROON to both stream to that and control volume. I replaced my Benchmark stack with the GAN1 since it was similar for lower cost, though eventually the lack of analogue inputs made me sideline the GAN1 only for headphones.
@mlsstl, One should only spend as much on cables for max detail retrieval/preservation. Unfortunately, many dumb dudes spend on cables for tonal changes. Well...if every forum dude had enough noodle in his noggin to secure a engineering PhD, it would be an utopian society indeed. But, the stoopid tends to be larger in numbers always ( in comparison to the brighter ones). So, don’t bother....lol
Starting at $149 you can buy a Schiit Loki Mini+ four band equalizer which will allow you to experiment with different settings to your heart's content. For $300, their Lokius expands this to a six band EQ. (They also have a still fancier unit for $1,500....)
I've always found it interesting that many audiophiles are so willing to adjust the tone quality of their system with wires, amps or preamps that offer only one change in the frequency balance of their system but won't consider a device that lets them quickly adjust the tone as needed by different recordings.
Cables are the most expensive form of tone control.
Room acoustics and actual tone controls are usually far more cost effective solutions.
Having said this, if the user is fond of certain brands of cable like mid range Wireworld he may do much better going to more neutral wiring like Mogami. A lot of big brand cables are, IMHO, deliberately darker, though they do seem to image a little better in exchange for that.
What you are describing is the difference between the soft dome in the Concertino and the ring tweeter in the Toy. Cables won’t make any actual differences however like any placebo they can be effective if you believe in the change. Changing amplification or using tone controls will alter the sound and may get them a little closer to what they are looking for. In my experience tube amps can add a bit of realism to instruments like cymbals and that can liven up a soft dome tweeter. It’s subtle so don’t expect it to shimmer quite like a ring or metal dome tweeter, but it should be a step in the right direction depending upon the amp/tubes. My experience is with Dynaudio speakers (soft dome) and the Willsenton R8.
just looked at this post if this has been answered...sorry. If the crossover has an Lpad, with any pad on the tweeter, yes, you can reduce the amount of tweeter pad without changing the crossovers function. If the crossover has no pad or if the pad used was a single resistor figuring its resistance into the tweeter, then no, not easily, you would change the crossover design.
Back in the late 90's when I first heard the Concertinos at a Tweeter store, they were driven by a Marantz receiver (no idea on the model). Listened to a variety of material and I heard plenty of "sparkle" in the treble. Flash forward ten years and I finally purchase a used pair. I paired them with a VTL tube amp. Unfortunately, I heard much of what your friend describes. So basically I'm thinking that Concertinos are picky about amplification.
If a previous owner of the same speakers says that it just isn't that extended, then I'd go with that. The most important components in a stereo system are, in order: speakers, speaker amp synergy, amp, preamp, source.
There's only so much you can do to change the fundamental nature of the speakers, and speakers make the biggest difference.
Some of what other posters have said have got me thinking that you may just have a very warm midrange speaker that nothing can alter to the point where you will be satisfied. OTOH I have a specific cable suugestion to try which are the all high purity solid silver cable called Silver Lace by Homegrown Audio. They are not overly expensive in the era of precious metal haording. If you have money to spare then the Silver version of the OHNO cast crystal silver cable may work as well or better. I bought Jena labs pure copper for speaker speaker cables used they were still big money to me. I am pretty sure she is making a cast braided silver cable these days but again they aren't cheap. Jena is by no means very expensive compared to some others so it's not an outrageous compararitively either. There are other manufacturers that use it VanDenhalland several others (sp?) If you search you'll foind the others. Ultimately all this tweaking I did, did not give me the sound I really wanted. I was fixed on keeping my JM Lab Focals and the I got a chance to buy some relatively potent tube monoblock poweramps.on the cheap I did so The search was over but I always wanted a 6SN7 preamp because I collect them and had only driver slots on an integrated to use them in,So a I snatched an AE-3 preamp(a Cary subdivision) which use 6SN7s to do the amplification and some other jobs in the pre. I was simply delighted with the results all I wanted and more. My audio buddies always asked what did you do to those speakers they are sounding great ? I told them nothing. So the posters sayit may be your amp might be right. Still others saying you can't make the seakers a bit leaner may be right. Thus do try several amps. My personal audio victory took years and lot of amps. If you decide to try tubes get a modern pre or power amp they have sparkle and life and they aren't your Dads Fisher/ Pilot/ etc. I could hekp you optimize the tube choices if you take the plunge. The amp should really have plenty of sizzle so it's surprising try a different pair speakers and see if it is the speaker. Otherwise the next question is what speaker should I buy.-Panels?? I don't like a lot of treble energy. I like speed transparency and stage wich my system has, it is by no means a sludgy dark overly warm sound. All the effort I (and $) I did spend was to rid my system of harshness and digital hash, even from my TT. Hey it's an adventure, If you buy the easy tweaks first go ahead but the DSP I looked up and it cost 900 euros, big money. Good luck a lot of probably fun times await while you experiment your way into a more enjoyable system.
I second Wilsynet and Elizabeth in that the (main) problem you are hearing may not be the speakers. As Eugene81 reports, the speakers may be midranged focused but you may be able to improve things to an acceptable level by making other changes. My recent experience swapping around IC cables showed significant changes in the HF presentation between even very good cables. My overall experience has generally been that "darkness" (being a somewhat warmer than life mid-bass, less extended treble, and a focus on body and depth vs. resolution and detail) is sometimes a function of the electronics. Personally, to my preference, some of the best sounding gear I have owned had a touch of darkness.
Try Cables First...Most of mine are silver coated copper, not by design, but after much trial and error. Best clarity and transparency, bass impact and midrange tone. YMMV. I strongly suggest you try Mapleshade speaker cables. It will brighten and make the sound more lively. Try this before a more expensive change.
They will be stark and stunning at first, but will mellow somewhat with age.
As a former SF Concertino owner -- no. You can tune the sound to shift the balance towards more top end illumination but these speakers are very midrange focused with subdued treble such that that is their sonic signature, IMO. Beautiful with voices and stringed instruments, terrible with rock. They sure are great looking speakers and so well crafted, though.
So true Elizabeth. I ran into this problem once and thought it was my speakers. I put my old ones back and low and behold it was my new amp and preamplifier. I gave it three months of break in and nothing changed. The amp and pre were from the same company as well and were meant to be together but they sucked to every single person that heard them. That was when I started to take advice from all of you on Agon (with a grain of salt). The best advice ive ever been given is in home audition. If you cant do it, don't buy it. Its that simple. If you don't you're setting yourself up for disappointment. There is the possibility that something is broken, wired incorrectly or a setting is botched.
Your friend might want to contact Clear Day cables for a free home trial. Their cables are solid silver, well made, reasonably priced, and Paul is a pleasure to work with.
A lot of this is in the synergy between the speakers and the amplifier.
Your speakers might be brighter with the same amplifier than his speakers paired with the same amplifier. Cables may make a difference, but frankly, the gear will make a bigger difference than cables.
I would strongly consider a different amplifier. I bet the Wyred4Sound Mini Integrated for $1500 will be more transparent and extended.
Yes. There are many ways to arrive at a similar destination. Dark speakers can be lightened up by using brighter gear and/or cables, and vice versa. Many people do this without realizing it. They may say "that cable is too bright", not realizing that they are running bright speakers.
I ran Verity Audio Parsifal Encore's which are very dark sounding, they are the first speakers I ever heard where silver cables sounded good. I also found that more revealing electronics worked well with these speakers too. ARC and VAC worked better than Cary or CJ.
If you are limiting the knobs in your system that you want to turn to your speakers, they can brightened up most likely by replacing the caps with brighter sounding ones.
Amps might help. Some amps are certainly more forward than others. Or an EQ of some type.
People (including myself) are raving about the DSPeaker Dual Core. It has digital DSP for bass but also a very customizable EQ, along with 4 settings that can be saved.
A/D/A conversion with it is also remarkably transparent. I use it for both analog and digital inputs.
Haven't actually played with the treble or non-DSP EQ controls yet. But this is one powerful little unit.
The first and most important place to start is speaker set-up. Once height and toe-in are properly set move on to rake to get the best balance. This is usually where the issue is best addressed.
You can emphasize certain qualities by making cable choices. Silver tends to highlight the treble energy that is there. Also you amplification as already changed to pure SS and class D inparticular can bring out the treble in some systems. I have had to go the other rout trying to warm up and fill out my sound which I think I did well in my system.
IME, I believe it might be possible. My soft dome tweeters are not bright sounding by any means. When on the wire merry-go-round I tried a few silver plated copper interconnects which did brighten up the highs. But compared to copper, I did not like their tone: cymbals sounded like metal on metal instead of wood/plastic-tipped on brass; Miles' muted trumpet sounded too piercing/steely, and same with violins. BUT, since his tweeters are different than mine, along with his ears, brain, and room, perhaps he might gain the benefits (added crystalline clarity) but not the anomalies. It is worth a try. Some manufacturers offer trial periods, or buy used and resell. I say, DO IT!
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