"you don't NEED an Offramp if you go USB"
True, but the sound quality will be improved a lot if you do, even with a USB DAC. Lots of customers are doing this.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
BSME85, the whole point is to get away from the dreaded USB interface as it is soo poor. Even the best implementations are flawed. You can know see that the USB is finally beginning to be phased out. |
you don't NEED an Offramp if you go USB. |
If all designers were equally skilled and all systems were up to snuff, the decision making process would much easier and there would not be so much bickering about which source is better. Everyones experience is based upon different designs and different systems. There is literally no way that a typical audiophile can say that one thing is definitively better than another, except in the context of his system. Well said! Better than well said!!!! Should be printed on the masthead of every 'zine (e or otherwise), and scroll across every audio site. |
"If there were one type of any audio output source or method that was better than all of the others, this hobby would be much easier to master"
If all designers were equally skilled and all systems were up to snuff, the decision making process would much easier and there would not be so much bickering about which source is better. Everyones experience is based upon different designs and different systems. There is literally no way that a typical audiophile can say that one thing is definitively better than another, except in the context of his system.
It's like doctors or lawyers. There a really good ones, but they are the exception, not the norm.
On the other hand, manufacturers, reviewers and modders get to experiment with lots of different speakers, amps and sources, particularly at trade shows. They have much more experience evaluating one component or speaker in many different systems and comparing different components in the same system. At least they have a CHANCE at making a good recommendation that is somewhat system-independent.
Yet another reason why it is risky to purchase something entirely based on an individuals feedback based on performance in his/her system, particularly when you have never heard this persons system yourself. Even risky with reviewers. Know your reviewer. Many of their systems are not great either.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
After selling my Wadia 861 CDP in 2006, I've utilized PC audio since then.
I consider it a canard to make conclusions mainly, or solely on audio output types.
Thus, my experiences suggest that the correlation between output types and sonic results is NOT one that is particularly informative, or useful. Thus, it wouldn't be one that I would recommend using for decision making.
I would suggest that a DAC be chosen based on its sonic capabilities, NOT on the type of its output.
Limiting oneself to a computer based output type is akin to limiting oneself to other audio types -- e.g. tubes vs solid state; box speakers vs horns vs electrostats vs ribbon and planar magnetic vs open baffle speakers; digital vs analogue; etc.... Each of these output types have their pluses and minuses. More importantly, each can be executed well and others, not so much! The same can be said for DAC output types.
If there were one type of any audio output source or method that was better than all of the others, this hobby would be much easier to master and we wouldn't need so many posts in a forum such as this. |
Don't believe everything you read. USB is great if you select the RIGHT USB interface. Beats 99% of transports at any price. Just get an Off-Ramp 5 and Dynamo power supply. It blows away everything, including the very best PCI cards and Firewire interfaces.
PCI cards suck, plain and simple. I have had most of them, including the $2K Lynx and RME cards. Most of them have PLLs for the Master Clock allowing them to sync to an external word-clock. Really bad idea. Only a free-running Master Clock oscillator is capable of low jitter. My customers send these PCI cards to me to test with my reclockers because they have such high jitter.
Here are some customer reviews of good USB interfaces:
http://www.empiricalaudio.com/news-and-reviews/off-ramp-converter
http://www.empiricalaudio.com/news-and-reviews/overdrive-dac
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
I didn't know that about USB
Thanks |
USB is pretty pathetic. Firewire does blow it away. For $200 - heck - $150 - just get an ESI Juli@ soundcard. it blows away the usb at a much lower cost.
USB sucks - plain and simple. Use it to connect your mouse and printer, not a dac... |
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|
The "U" in USB stands for Universal. IEEE 1394 (Firewire) is NOT universal. Most motherboards have dropped support for it. And so are most DAC vendors, sadly, have too. Universality often wins out over quality.
Motherboard based Toslink & RCA SPDIF signal paths are cheaply made, and sound that way... to me, at least. Even with the addition of a galvanic isolation transformer. I have listened to a dozen or more of them feeding a WEISS DAC 202, among others. (This was my job for a period of time) Consider that the entire motherboard costs $100, and they have to include a lot of other parts for those 100 dollars.
I'm not sure how to best invest $200. What inputs do you have on your "old D/A converter"? For less than your budget, a USB based M2Tech HiFace2 will get you RCA or BNC SPDIF out with quality clocks and galvanic isolation. |
I am just starting to look into this. My constraints are a PC running Windows or Linux, listening through old Stax headphones connected to an integrated amp a couple feet away from the computer, and very low budget, say, around $200. By the way, all my PCs (purposely) have FireWire on the motherboard, and I do have an old D/A converter I can use to get started. I would be looking to upgrade as money permits, but this won't be right away. Obviously, I wouldn't be able to afford the best USB interface.
So in this context, what is the best way (in terms of sound quality) to get sound from the computer? Would it be better to get one of those integrated USB/DACs with built-in cable? If so, I'm guessing this would mean money down the drain when it comes time to upgrade.
Also, many mention that using coax or toslink from motherboard is not a good idea, but I don't see a justification for this other than USB is the way to go. Why is it that coax/toslink from the motherboard is inferior? On my computer at work I at least don't get constant ticks and pauses like I do when using the cheap USB->coax adapter I got several years ago. |
It is difficult to compare USB to Firewire since Firewire is expansion bus while USB is peripheral bus. Firewire speed is guaranted while USB speed is much lower than rated because it runs under protocol. 480Mb/s rated USB 2.0 runs at about half of this speed while Firewire 400 runs at full 400Mb/s (for the reason of guaranteed bandwidth is widely used in broadcasting industry). In addition Firewire does not engage main CPU having own processing unit with DMA ability. For that reason it was removed from Ipod since it posed security risk. Bringing device with Firewire to work might allow to bypass passwords (Direct Memory Access) and plant virus or spyware on the system or to steal company secrets. Big companies would most likely prohibit Ipod as security risk and that would be disaster for Apple. One thing that killed Firewire on (IBM) PC was greed. Apple charged $1 per port for royalties and that's a lot in very competitive business.
I'm not even sure how important speed is since 16/44.1 requires only 1.4Mb/s. Asynchronous operation might be a different story - don't know much about it.
One test for the future will be HDTV. Firewire 3200 could deliver (with 3% overhead) about 3100Mb/s bandwidth - not enough for 1920x1200 at 60Hz. What about Thunderbolt that has about twice the bandwidth of USB 3.0 and is likely to migrate to (IBM) PC ? |
Richard - the Firewire that is available is outperformed by the best USB interfaces available. I'm not saying that it is not possible to build a Firewire just as good. It just does not exist.
I base my claim entirely on feedbacks from my customers, just look the post above. This customer was using my older Pace-Car technology USB interface instead of the Firewire input on his Weiss 202. Even Weiss went to a USB interface on their latest DAC.
There is somehow a perception that Firewire is superior and achieves better SQ. Simply not true.
If you have not heard a better USB interface than your Firewire, you have not heard the best USB interfaces.
Have you heard the latest Empirical Audio Off-Ramp 5, the Synergistic Research or the Diverter HR?
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
I know that you have the expertise, Steve, but I own both a firewire dac and asynchronous usb dacs. I'm surprised that you are so emphatic in your statement; given your past history (say on the "tubed" dac thread) I would have thought that you would have said that it depends which asynch usb and which firewire are being compared. |
Lupin - Async USB works great, and furthermore beats Firewire.
Read this:
....http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=105049.msg1159717#msg1159717...........
Firewire is dead!!
Async USB also beats Sonos, Squeezebox Touch, Soolos and other servers. Some servers now allow for async USB converters to be used with them, so this is a good development.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
Also, if you insist on using your computer directly as an audio source, do not use the onboard SPDIF output, or even a USB device. Use only a Firewire device!
Firewire supports isochronous data transfers - critical to a clocked data stream like SPDIF. USB does not support this! |
Unless your computer is in the same room with your stereo (why??) then avoid using the computer as a source component. Stream the music over your home network instead, so some device that outputs SPDIF to your DAC.
I use the Squeezebox system myself and love it, but if you insist on iTunes, you do have some options. The Apple Airport Express will do exactly this - you can stream your iTunes collection to the AE, and the AE device will output a toslink signal to your DAC. Note that the AE requires a special "mini" toslink connector. |
Tortugaranger: What $20 converter did you get? |
The explanation is lower jitter. The more you spend on the USB converter, the better the SQ.
Read the reviews.
The jitter of the clock in all digital systems is the most important thing to optimize. Dont scrimp on this because there is nothing downstream that will fix it. Not even reclocking in the DAC.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
I have a custom desktop PC with a very good motherboard. I've been using the motherboard COAX into a Channel Islands DAC (VDA-2) for some time now. BUT!! Recently I purchased a $20 (yes, a mere $20!!) USB to SPDIF to compare performance. Wow was I surprised. That $20 USB/SPDIF converter blew the doors off the motherboard in terms of overall sound quality. I don't have an explanation. I'm using a TOSLINK with the USB/SPDIF since it does not have a COAX out. Not exactly apples and apples and a bit broad brush but the overall result strongly suggest that most anything beats motherboard audio outputs. And for $20 you can afford this upgrade even if your results are less stellar.
Cheers!
Morten |
Neal - nice Advertisement. Maybe I should do one too. Better yet, I'll just post all of my awards and reviews:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=95464#msg960567
http://www.dagogo.com/View-Article.asp?hArticle=860
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?icomp&1301776154&&&/Empirical-Audio-Overdrive-DAC:-King-of-t
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?icomp&1301776154&&&/Empirical-Audio-Overdrive-DAC:-King-of-t
http://www.avguide.com/review/empirical-audio-ramp-3-and-overdrive-usb-dac-tas-200
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=97269.0
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?ddgtl&1320430393&openflup&74&4#74
http://www.computeraudiophile.com/content/USB-SPDIF-converters-0#comment-123548
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=101877.msg1031321#msg1031321
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=89181.msg904966#msg904966
http://www.stereophile.com/content/empirical-audio-ramp-4-usb-format-converter
We dont sell through dealers, so we give you more for your money.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
Gmahler wrote:
"quite hard concepts to swallow"
Well, read this carefully and maybe you will learn something:
http://www.avguide.com/review/peachtree-audio-idac-tas-214?page=1
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
Greetings,
The on board digital outputs on the PC can playback all the sample rates from 16 44.1 to 24 192 except 24 176. Neither WASAPI or ASIO can fix that. The USB capability of USB 2.0 is limited only by the Driver your USB input DAC uses.
The Zodiac series of DACs from Antelope Audio sound fabulous from the Silver on up through the Gold with USB inputs and will play any sample rate from 16 bit 44.1k through 24 bit 192 K.
The Clocking technology in the Zodiac series gives them a very analog sound with out any of the digital nasties that cause many audiophiles to prefer Analog.
The Silver also has a pair of SPDIF coax inputs and a pair of spdif optical inputs. Single Ended and Balanced analog outputs with a analog volume control and a separate headphone volume control.
Of course I am a dealer for the Zodiacs, I sell other brands too but find the Zodiacs to offer the most pleasing sound for the money and they don't need extra devices to convert or enhance the usb output as they developed their own superior USB technology. They even include a very good quality USB cable.
The other part of this equation is the playback software must use WASAPI to play back the native sample rate of the music stored on your PC, I recommend Media Monkey or J River Media Center. They sound slightly differently and which one you prefer will be system dependent.
I build the Music Vault Music Servers and most of my customers prefer Media Monkey but some prefer JRiver, the differences are subtle.
I do encourage you to get a DAC that does support multiple inputs, USB only dacs preclude inputting your CD transport/DVD player etc and these are viable sources that will be improved from the use of a musical DAC like the Zodiacs.
Neal Van Berg
Sound Science
720 308 4000
neal@soundsciencecat.com |
Q: Coax or toslink from MOBO?
A: Neither
Why: Using either connection from the motherboard means you are using the integrated audio device. Stay away from that entirely and focus on a separate DAC or audio interface that connects via Firewire/USB/Thunderbolt.
The type of DAC/audio interface you choose depends on your current and potential needs. If you only do playback, a HiFi DAC will do; check AudioAdvisor.com. If you have even a remote possibility for recording anything or transferring vinyl, cassette, etc. to iTunes, focus on a pro-level Audio Interface. My vote is an RME FireFace 800 for those duties. It combines in one unit top-shelf D/A & A/D conversion, great clocking and jitter reduction, pro mic preamps, plenty of versatile connectivity, integrated mixing software, and one of the most stable and solid Windows drivers in its class. |
I, too, have found that the best sounding interface (for me, to my ears, in my system) is a good sound card. I use the ESI Juli@ and J River. What I have also found is that using J River in its native format (44.1/redbook) and upsampling via some good outboard gear (reclocking/upsampling and into dac) sounds much better than upsampling via J River. |
Wow! Just about everything you've posted matches my own situation. Even the desktop speakers. Apart from the MB outs, though.
If a good, (read really good) USB or 1394 DAC is purchased, ala Wavelength; Weiss, etc, that route is definitely a solution whorthwhile.
I use a Bel Canto DAC 3.0.
I've tried each and every route to feed it likewise files as you described. Ultimately using the Lynx AES16 PCI eXPRESS CARD and AES connection in conjunction with Lynx own ASIO out & either Fubar or JR MC (current versions), to achieve my best sound thru a MAIN audio or HT system.
Many of my posts on PC audio point to my above comments if you care to peruse them, or if you can presently. I'm having issues with this new site upgrade personally.
Each link in that signal path from the cable, interface, and output device & DAC will help or hinder your ability to achieve a great solution.
For ex. I could upgrade my cable from the Lynx to the BC DAC3, as I feel it is my weakest link. Naturally upgrading the BC DAC3 to 3.5 status would likely be as well a fine move. Thereafter, all of the downstream components fall into line for consideration to replace or update.
The DAC IMHO is the true key.
That said, each segment thereafter really does matter.
Final note.... Multi interface DACs are in general better sounding using one of it's interfaces over another. Mine is limited to 16/44 on USB I think, so for me, USB out is not a solution. Coax sounded better than TOS, and AES better still than any others. So it behoves you to experiement for yourself.... unless of course you select a dedicated interfaced DAC. Then only the cable itself requires messin' around with.
Good luck. |
Try USB output to Audophilleo converter leaving in SPDIF to dac. |
I had to re rip everything into AIFF for my new Mac Mini......couldnt get the metadata to transfer from my original Windows Itunes to Macbook pro with windows via Parallels Itunes then finally to Mac Mini Lion Itunes (non windows)
The John Kenny MK3 USB to SPDIF is a stellar product......beats AP2 and Halide in reviews I see........no beating it unless you plump for a Offramp with turboclocks......4x the price and only subjectively better. |
I see you are recom..wav files thru your mac mini..I just got a mac mini and had over 1 tb of lossless wav files that play thue itunes but i can not get the files organized thru itunes...ie artist song and album all mixed as one on itunes..tries to you us tuneup but that didnt work ..help please ! |
Nolitan - according to the review on Computer Audiophile, yes, the Halide Bridge is asynchoronous.
Let us know if you end up trying it and how you like it. |
is the Halide Bridge Asynchoronous ?
In the same shoes and looking for some advice.
Although at the moment, i'm not too keen on buying a USB Dac only. I would prefer to use my Dacs that i already have.
thanks. |
I'm in a similar situation... I have a new Macbook Pro and the DAC from my Audio Aero Capitol with SPDIF inputs. I'm leaning towards getting the Halide Design USB-SPDIF Bridge ($450) along with Pure Music software that works with I-Tunes($129). I have not pulled the trigger yet, but like the idea of the Halide Bridge because it's a USB/SPDIF convertor and a digital cable all-in-one... so no extra digital cable is required, unlike most other SPDIF convertors.
Would appreciate input from users of the Halide Bridge. |
I have a question. I have a REGA DAC and a Macbook. I would need either a USB-SPDIF converter or a good mini-toslink to toslink cable. Any suggestions for something not too terribly expensive? |
The one box solution:
I have been a pretty hardcore analog devotee, but loved the convenience of digital. Cut to the chase: If you have a Mac server with firewire, buy yourself a Metric Halo LIO-8. There is a learning curve associated with pro gear, but in this case it is worth it. IMHO playback at 44K is easily competitive with an Ayre QB-9, and you can do so much more. It has 8 channels of analog and digital IO, runs at 24/192 and will let you record whatever you want completely transparently (at least to my aging ears). Use Pure Vinyl with it to archive and play records better than direct feed from my (RHEA) phono pre. Sell your current (QB-9) DAC and use it to play back all your digital files. Grab some batteries and do some location recording (haven't done that, but am thinking about it). It is not cheap, but a totally amazing box that is a very good value and unlikely to be outclassed for quite some time. Just don't expect a fancy box to put on display. |
Grace Design m902b headphone amp and ASUS Xonar HDAV 1.3 soundcard. The HDAV 1.3 (several minor variants) is the only line licensed to decode and transmit the audio from Blu-ray at full resolution. You will need Arcsoft TotalMedia player to do this. The soundcard has an S/PDIF out and the amp has an S/PDIF (and an AES) input. The headphone amp also has USB input but USB is limited to 16 bit/48 kHz, which is just not good enough IMO. The 'b' in the headphone amp's model number is for balanced outputs to use with active speakers. |
Use a firewire device. Firewire is the best connection protocol on the planet and their are lots of great DAC options available.
Weiss firewire DACs
Echo Audio firewire DACs
just to name a few. Excellent performance for the price from the ECHO firewire interfaces.
http://www.home-speaker.net/diyhometheaterspeaker.html |
Hey Audioengr.
So if you're using mac and itune. use the USB converter then add the dac..
quite hard concepts to swallow..
LOL
thanks |
If you are using toslink/spdif out of the computer into a processor then you are using the DAC of the processor.
The signal to the processor is pure digital, the DAC of computer does not come into play.
With a good quality optical/coax cable there should be no loss. |
Milen007 - There is no difference in the actual data between WAV and AIF/AIFF hence there is no difference in sound qualty. They are both uncompressed formats.
AFF is big-endian and WAV is little-endian (although there are little-endian aiff's out there)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endianness |
go USB with quality USB dac. My personal opinion prefer NOS dac. I am using mac. I now prefer mac and USB dac to my Cyrus cdp 8x. Not to mention the trouble of changing CDs. Just few click away w remote(iPhone). Also go with wav. I found them better than aif though aif support artwork with itune while wav not.
Happy listening |
depends on the budget,
depends on your ear/brain, if it likes more color sound or grey sound.
too many variables.
like jitter.
wordclock, the op-amps in the DAC., the circuit design in the DAC.
wordclock & s/pdif cable velosity propagation, and capacitance.
toslink vs. s/pdif,?
depends on the s/pdif cable used.
if its a good cable will have way lower jitter than toslink/adat/madi.
but if its a bad cable, will have lost data.
s/pdif with a verry nice cable will sound more detailed., less muddy, more transparent,
but that also depends on the wordclock you have also.
0.03ppb, <1ppm, 5ppm, 25ppm, 50ppm like alesis ai-2
, digital DDS or PLL, TTL, Crystal, TCXO, OCXO, etc..
some wordclocks allow to reclock, and resample. like drawmer m-clock, antelope DA, etc..
some DACs have jitter elimination mechanisms,
but none are better than a rubidium atomic clock.
if you plan to upgrade to an atomic clock, try to avoid DACs with a jitter removal mechanism that cant be turned off. "Wide lock"
some DACs have fixed SRC, and SRC creates distortions.
http://src.infinitewave.ca/
make shure you like the distortions.
3daudioinc c0m has a nice ADCD double cd comparing ADCs, but usually ADC has same sound as DACs, if done properly
becouse has the same analog circuit design, and same wordclock.
reb box rb-adda 96k sounds really nice to me,
lavry gold the best ive heard.
i dont like prism AD/-DA-2
i like black lion modifications on the digi002r
etc...etc... |
I tend to agree with the external USB DAC as the route to quality. Howerver, there is a new product soon to be released that has some potential. Check out the Asus HDAV1.3 audio card. |
.
Cerrot,
Several USB DACs have their own independent power supply. For example, the Ultra Fi iRoc asych DAC takes care of the power supply "problem" you "identify" and its own power supply.
On the other hand,many serious technical and audio-experience problems are associated with spdif interfaces.
Happy listening!
. |
If you really want to hear PC Audio at it's best, go firewire. I just went to a firewire to spdif converter (M Audio Firewire Solo) and just couldn't believe how good it sounds. There's just no way the power supply in a PC can provide stable, clean power to a soundcard. I was thinking of going USB but thought best to just go with the fire wire.
Enjoy your rig. |
In my humble opinion going USB DAC is the only quality way.
Several USB DACs are out there. I'd like to suggest a conversation with Larry Moore and trial of his designed and manufactured Ultra Fi iRoc USB DAC... so simple and simply amazing...
especially when coupled to a quality USB cable (YES...vital) such as Ted Denney's Synergistic Research USB cable or Robert Schultz's Poboeima!!! USB cable and of course quality single-ended cables to the preamp.
Dollar for dollar (like a boxer: pound for pound) with a MacMini I have found nothing that compares.The complete transformation of the system this setup is on is nearly confounding. My adult kid just shakes his head in wonder as do several of my friends. This combination is eroding my faith in CDPs regardless of price.
I have no commercial or otherwise interest in the above firms or persons other than being a very pleased and happy customer.
All the best & happy listening,
Ed
. |
I actually own an external $50 SoundBlaster X-Fi Surround 5.1, it sounds pretty good, but I suspect that it will sound even better if its optical out is connected to external DAC.
Does anyone have this experience, how good it works?
Actually another question - as the technology is progressing exponentially, do you think that the modern $300 DACs are actually sounding better than old $1000 DACs? Especially taking into account that Blaster output is 24/96. |
Check out the Soundblaster lineup of outboard soundcards/DACs. They connect to the the PC by USB, most with USB 1.1 and do not require Asio driver. They do stereo, 5.1 and some do 7.1. 24 bit/92 Hz DACs. S/N ratios over 100 dB (cause its outside the internal crap from the PC). List prices range from $50 to over $200. www.soundblaster.com.
I am using the Soundblaster Live!, RCA analog connects into Sherwood 100w x 6.1 receiver, B & W LM1 desk top speakers and small Velodyne sub. I listen mostly to the online radio stations while working on my PC. The nearfield stereo sound is awesome. Almost like headphones. |
Audioengr, thank you, I think that I am seeing how this comes together. Now just have to put a few more dimes aside to put the package together. Going to have more questions as I put this together. |
Inwanw - why not use the USB outputs for audio? With a converter or USB DAC based on the TAS1020 the sound quality can be excellent.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
