Is there any reason to support the idea that cables, interconnects or any other kind of wiring can be considered directional? It seems that the theory is that carrying current will alter the molecular structure of the wire. I can't find anything that supports this other than in the case of extreme temperature variation. Cryo seems to be a common treatment for wire nowadays. Extreme heat would do something as well, just nothing favorable. No idea if cryo treatment works but who knows. Back to the question, can using the wires in one direction or another actually affect it's performance? Thanks for any thoughts. I do abide by the arrows when I have them. I "mostly" follow directions but I have pondered over this one every time I hook up a pair.
Some of us just like to hurt our brains every once in a while.
I recall reading that Jay, the proprietor of Audio Bacon website, was reviewing the Snake River Audio Boomslang digital cable a few years back. After talking with the cable’s designer for follow-up information he found out that he actually had it in backwards- he didn’t know it was directional- and he definitely heard a difference putting it in the "right" direction, but he actually preferred the sound of it "backwards".
What happens when you flip off a light switch? Light goes off immediately.
I would interpret "immediately" to mean small fractions of a second after flipping the switch, after the energy in the lines has completely been absorbed by the load.
Just questioning the "one way direction" of energy in an alternating current conductor, but that’s fine.
jea48.... I was making a bad joke about the question you raised....
"If the speakers were 3251 kilometres away would there be no signal- would the energy simply stop and turn back the other direction, and one would hear no sound from the speaker?"
For my own curiosity wondering how far the "signal" would go: From what I gather this "signal" travels in this medium at a rate of 0.7c, or about 195,000 km per second, so at 60Hz every 0.0167 seconds the energy wave can travel 3250 kilometres before changing directions.
To be clear here guys, I do not have a degree in Physics.
The energy doesn’t change direction. The Energy travels from the source >>> to the load (in one direction) >>> at near the speed of light in a vacuum. I have read in real time around 50% to 70% of the speed of light.
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If the speakers were 3251 kilometers away would there be no signal- would the energy simply stop and turn back the other direction, and one would hear no sound from the speaker?
That’s a tough one.LOL, Not sure exactly what you are asking.
I doubt if @rodman99999could answer it. He has a degree in Physics.
Are you talking about using a pair of wires? Need more info... If wires you are going to need thick conductors and step up the output signal voltage. You are talking over 2000 miles.
I have never heard of energy returning to the source... Current does in a closed circuit. Current travels (slower than cold maple syrup) from the source through the load back to the source. Current is not consumed by a connected load. The energy is what makes the Light bulb light. Not the current.
These types of technical discussions seem to be about: What is known and can be measuredvswhat is yet to be known and has not yet been measured.
This reminds me of the America’s Cup Race in 1983 where Alan Bond’s Australia II snatched the America’s Cup away from Dennis Connor’s Liberty.
At his disposal, Dennis Connor had a phalanx of physicists, engineers and naval architects – as well as the full use of the U.S. Navy’s science labs for testing and measuring hull shapes and designs.
On the other hand, Alan Bond had just one guy, Ben Lexcen. And Ben outsmarted them all.
With his out-of-the box thinking, he discovered new insights into fluid dynamics. He single-handedly improved upon centuries-old nautical hull designs with his winged keel. His innovation can now be measured. Decades later, this technology has led to super-fast hydrofoil racing designs.
“Untold: The Race of the Century” is fantastic documentary about this thrilling sailboat race. It’s on Netflix.
_ _ _
As a life-long sailor, it wouldn’t be surprising to me if electrical waves have similarities to other types of waves found in aerodynamics and/or hydrodynamics. As a kayaker, it also wouldn’t be surprising to me if dielectrics in cables have similarities to the rocky riverbed in white-water rafting.
@jea48, honestly, I don’t remember, it was 50 years ago. I would say through the wire. I don’t know if it was even covered. I always took it as a given the signal goes through the wire. I think at the time, Monster Cable had just debuted. I was using Mogami speaker wire at the time because a friend who worked for the telephone company got his hands on some.
But @jea48, your last paragraph just made my brain explode. Does that mean if Jimmy Page plays a cord on his guitar in LA that they can't hear it in NYC. LOL
You referring to this?
I don’t know why cables are directional. I just know some are.
I have a pair of Clear Day Cables solid silver conductor non shielded single ended RCA interconnects that are definitely directional. Hands down...
You might say that I started some of this discussion with my own misconceptions in regards to AC power flow, for which now I stand corrected and beg forgiveness.
It has been a learning experience for me.
But @jea48, your last paragraph just made my brain explode. Does that mean if Jimmy Page plays a cord on his guitar in LA that they can't hear it in NYC. LOL
Ok, I was just pointing out that Inakustik essentially do not use a dielectric on their wire.
I watched the video on cable directionality. The guy thinks the signal travels back and forth in the wire. It doesn’t. If it did then cheap PVC insulation would be all that is needed for the dielectric used to cover the bare wire.
I don’t know exactly where to go with that, but:
We do know the electromagnetic wave is carried from amplifier to speaker via an alternating current. If this energy wave is what we call the "signal" does it not change directions 120 times per second, otherwise known as 60Hz in North America? It is also more recently been hypothesized (proven?) that the actual electrons only travel a few centimetres.
For my own curiosity wondering how far the "signal" would go: From what I gather this "signal" travels in this medium at a rate of 0.7c, or about 195,000 km per second, so at 60Hz every 0.0167 seconds the energy wave can travel 3250 kilometres before changing directions. Obviously our speaker cables are not that long, and there are huge losses over such distances, but ignoring this, here is a question that just popped into my head: If the speakers were 3251 kilometres away would there be no signal- would the energy simply stop and turn back the other direction, and one would hear no sound from the speaker?
I watched the video on cable directionality. The guy thinks the signal travels back and forth in the wire. It doesn’t. If it did then cheap PVC insulation would be all that is needed for the dielectric used to cover the bare wire.
This post From an Agon member.
The speaker transducer moves forward and backward according to EMF acting on the voice coil - see Faraday’s law and Maxwells equations - so both +ve and -ve current direction along the speaker wire causes transducer movement.
Response from an Agon member that taught this stuff, at the associate degree level..
Again, it has nothing to do with we commonly call "current" which most visualize as electrons flowing back and forth. It simply doesn’t work that way. There is an electro-magnetic wave that transfers energy to the coil of the speaker. If applied to a resistor it creates heat. If applied to an inductor (coil) it creates a constantly changing magnetic field which pushes and pulls against a fixed magnet creating motion. Those stuck in a world of flowing electrons are just that, stuck there. Energy flows, electrons do not.
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I don’t know why cables are directional. I just know some are.
I have a pair of Clear Day Cables solid silver conductor non shielded single ended RCA interconnects that are definitely directional. Hands down...
AA members that actually built there own cables and the problems they ran into.Lots of posts on cables on AA Cable asylum.
That is Science. If you think what you know is absolute, you are betraying Science on a fundamental level.
+1
As I've often mentioned:
Feynman was and will remain, my favorite lecturer (yeah: I'm that old).
He mentioned often (and: I took to heart) his favorite Rule of Life: "Never stop learning!"
For all his genius, he never grew overly confident in his beliefs. The perfect obverse to the Dunning-Kruger sufferer.
ie: “I can live with doubt and uncertainty and not knowing. I think it is much more interesting to live not knowing, than to have answers that might be wrong.”
and: “I have approximate answers, and possible beliefs, and different degrees of certainty about different things, but I’m not absolutely sure of anything.”
Were it the DC voltage/current, from an amp's power supply, modulated by the amp's output devices, into an amplified musical signal; it would appear much more complex, but: still a sinusoidal wave.
*outside the dielectric, in the discussed model
Complex is an understatement.
I can't understand how anyone could think the signal could travel back and forth in the wire.
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That voltage potential exists, outside of a hot AC lead's conductor/cabling, even without a closed circuit, is why a non-contact voltage detector can work.
The electric field around the wire.
Without the electric field around the wire a non-contact voltage detector Couldn't work A closed circuit is not needed either.
I believe that’s why Teflon, for one, is used instead of cheap PVC insulation.
Other than a vacuum, the best dielectric is air: Check out the construction of Inakustik and their very transparent communications regarding audio cable construction. They even have webinars to signup for free to further people’s understanding.
Does the green arrows represent the signal traveling from the source to the load through the dielectric insulation?
Is the EM wave the signal, or does the EM carry the signal? Or is the signal embedded in the EM wave?
I'm certain you've seen a 60Hz AC trace on an O-scope.
As you're aware: that's (basically) a picture/capture of a 60Hz, sinusoidal electrical wave and what's being driven, when combined with its corresponding magnetic wave (resulting in Poynting vector's direction) from source to load*.
Were it the DC voltage/current, from an amp's power supply, modulated by the amp's output devices, into an amplified musical signal; it would appear much more complex, but: still a sinusoidal wave.
*outside the dielectric, in the discussed model
That voltage potential exists, outside of a hot AC lead's conductor/cabling, even without a closed circuit, is why a non-contact voltage detector can work.
@jea48 Thanks a lot for posting the results from that article. As per my previous post I inadvertently installed my digital cable backwards once and my system literally sounded broken until I figured it out and installed it correctly. It was not subtle at all, but until now I hadn’t seen anything that explained technically why I clearly heard what I did. Those who poo poo the directionality of cables can go pound sand. It’s a real thing.
I’ve referenced this I don’t know many times over the years. The article is from 1993. Old yes. Wires have been around a lot longer than that.
Actual measurements for those that say, "If it can’t be measured then it can’t be true."
After measuring the first two products (the PS Lambda and the Panasonic SV-3700), I went back and repeated my measurements to make sure the analyzer was giving consistent results, and that my test setup was correct. When I remeasured the SV-3700, I got about half the jitter than when I first measured it!
What caused this reduction in measured jitter?
Changing the direction of the digital interconnect between the transport and the jitter analyzer.
This phenomenon was easily repeatable: put the cable in one direction and read the RMS jitter voltage, then reverse the cable direction and watch the RMS jitter voltage drop. Although I’d heard differences in digital-cable directionality, I was surprised the difference in jitter was so easily measurable—and that the jitter difference was nearly double.
To confirm this phenomenon, I repeated the test five times each on three different digital interconnects. One was a generic audio cable, the other two were Mod Squad Wonder Link and Aural Symphonics Digital Standard, both highly regarded cables specifically designed for digital transmission. The generic cable wasn’t directional: it produced the same high jitter in either direction. But both the Wonder Link and the Aural Symphonics had lower jitter levels overall, but different jitter levels depending on their direction. Moreover, the generic cable had higher jitter than either of the two premium cables—even in the latters’ "high-jitter" direction.
Fig.8 shows the jitter difference between cable direction in Wonder Link using the Panasonic ’3700 as the source (the difference was about the same in the Aural Symphonics). Note that, at these high levels, small differences in the trace are significant. Between "10m" and "0.1" on the vertical scale, each horizontal division is 100ps. The overall RMS jitter was 4050ps with the Wonder Link connected in one direction, and 2700ps with the cable reversed.
JMHO, there can’t be an honest discussion of cable directionality if one believes the signal travels back and forth from the source to the load. Especially at near the speed of light in a vacuum.
The only bit of cable directionality I believe in is the shielding.
Shields should be connected to ground at the active end, which is the source. Hence shielded IC’s should have an arrow pointing from the source to the destination.
If you are using a shielded cable, then noise performance will be better when this is adhered to. Otherwise, no. Makes no difference at all.
Most homes aren’t near enough sources of noise for this to matter either way, but if you are, then pay attention to the direction.
Of course, this applies only to 2 conductor + shield wires. If your shield is the ground, then its' the same either way.
The ’S’ stands for Sinousoidal electric field, which when combined with it’s magnetic field, results in the Poynting vector that determines the direction and strength of an electromagnetic wave’s energy* flow.
*our systems’ AC or musical signals
Does the green arrows represent the signal traveling from the source to the load through the dielectric insulation?
Is the EM wave the signal, or does the EM carry the signal? Or is the signal embedded in the EM wave?
The 'S' stands for Sinousoidal electric field, which when combined with it's magnetic field, results in the Poynting vector that determines the direction and strength of the electromagnetic wave's energy* flow.
Wow, all this technobabble is giving me a splitting headache. I received my EE in 1976. Wire directions never came up in any of our studies. Perhaps it wasn’t known at the time? The school, Roger Williams University had an excellent Electrical Engineering program. Like I said in the second or third post to this thread, if there are not any arrows on the cable, try it both ways and if you hear a difference to the better, put the cables that way. Easy Peezy.
. . . It would seem to me that the best construction using drawn cable would be that each of the two conductors be a pair of wires, arranged in opposing directions to minimize the grain structure distortion.
Does anyone know of a manufacturer that does this . . .
Yes, several cable manufacturers. A type of bucking winding.
Here is a video for the LessLoss C-Marc series. Scroll down this page for more info from the LessLoss website.
- - - -
Here’s another Lessloss video that shows how the C-Marc cable is manufactured.
However, to the dismay of audiophiles, and the profit margin of cable manufacturers, the velocity of the wave along the wire is dependent of the electrical characteristics of the wire - which are dependent on the physical properties of the cable structure - material, coating, size, dielectric properties of the insulation, braiding - AND THE FREQUENCY OF THE DRIVING SOURCE.
So, if the wave velocity is strongly dependent on the frequency then the complex waveform of the audio signal will be more distorted. There will always be some distortion, the magnitude of which depends on cable length, and audiophile manufacturers will attempt to minimize the distortion - or try to make it euphonic.
dielectric properties of the insulation,
The signal travels in the spaces between the conductors. Therein through the dielectric insulation but not confined by the dielectric insulation, (unless the cable is shielded.)
I believe that’s why Teflon, for one, is used instead of cheap PVC insulation.
And I believe it helps control this:
So, if the wave velocity is strongly dependent on the frequency then the complex waveform of the audio signal will be more distorted. There will always be some distortion, the magnitude of which depends on cable length, and audiophile manufacturers will attempt to minimize the distortion - or try to make it euphonic.
It would seem to me that the best construction using drawn cable would be that each of the two conductors be a pair of wires, arranged in opposing directions to minimize the grain structure distortion.
Does anyone know of a manufacturer that does this - if not does anyone want to start a business?
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Bob Crump did.
Posted by rcrump on September 30, 2000 at 06:45:41
Solid core wire is extremely directional so just mark the end with some masking tape as it comes off the spool. Orient the wires so you have piece of masking tape at either end and terminate the wires. Throw it on a MOBIE or whatever overnight and then listen to it noting which way gives the highest image height. This is the correct orientation.
If you run the signal and return wires in the same direction you will end up with hot spots in the stage, normally at or close to the speakers, low image height and have a gaping hole in the middle of the stage...Keep in mind I am referring to the sound of the stage (reflections) not the individual instruments spread across the stage....Interconnects or speaker wires that have pianos wandering all over the stage normally have their signal and return going in the same direction....
I looked around for a primer on the subject and found this YouTube it's about a 40 minute chat but is, I think, rather good. Simple but not simplistic.
He doesn't address directionality per se but does explain why different cables may sound different.
To briefly summarize, the signal travels through the cable as a wave - (my simile now, a bit like a slinky, the free electrons nudging the next one from the high energy side to the lower, like the balls of a slinky from the high side to the low side).
However, to the dismay of audiophiles, and the profit margin of cable manufacturers, the velocity of the wave along the wire is dependent of the electrical characteristics of the wire - which are dependent on the physical properties of the cable structure - material, coating, size, dielectric properties of the insulation, braiding - AND THE FREQUENCY OF THE DRIVING SOURCE.
So, if the wave velocity is strongly dependent on the frequency then the complex waveform of the audio signal will be more distorted. There will always be some distortion, the magnitude of which depends on cable length, and audiophile manufacturers will attempt to minimize the distortion - or try to make it euphonic.
Regarding directionality, if the crystal structure of a cable is asymmetric and that structure affects the electrical characteristics (resistance, capacitance, inductance) asymmetrically then the waveform will be affected asymmetrically as it AC so, perhaps directionality matters. It would seem to me that the best construction using drawn cable would be that each of the two conductors be a pair of wires, arranged in opposing directions to minimize the grain structure distortion.
Does anyone know of a manufacturer that does this - if not does anyone want to start a business? (joke).
Illustration of electromagnetic power flow inside a coaxial cable according to the Poynting vector S, calculated using the electric field E (due to the voltage V) and the magnetic field H (due to current I).
S represents the signal. Yes?
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@rodman99999, I’ve used that Link many times trying to prove a point.
Imo, a SPDIF digital coax cable with a solid center conductor with RCA plugs is one of the best cables to use to check for cable directionality.
See, I couldn't even spell PhD correctly. I do not have the higher education of many in and around these forums. I do have big ears though. :) Thanks for all guys, it is appreciated. Sorry if people get angry over it. I for one, do not.
I’d like to say another thing. For the last 1,000 years, science has always been about challenging ideas, old and new. Science can give you some answers but rarely its entirety, There are 2 more questions for every answers that’s been made.
That is Science. If you think what you know is absolute, you are betraying Science on a fundamental level.
1) Your first statement above is completely incorrect. A fuse (to take your example) does not carry a voltage (whatever that means, since it is a meaningless statement in the first place). The idea of ’source’ and ’load’ are irrelevant in electrical theory; you can represent any part of a (linear-ized) circuit as a ’source’ with an ’impedance’ that is connected to the rest of the circuit ("load"). The fact that we as humans interested in hearing sound being reproduced interpret one component as a source and another as a load has nothing to do with the way in which electrical circuits behave.
I didn't bother responding to the total nonsense above, knowing that the uneducated poster/poser would completely miss the implications/ramifications, were I to mention/post anything, as regards Poynting Vectors*.
Well, this has been interesting, if a bit cranky at times. Discussions on these and other forums always seem to come down to "my Phd is bigger than your Phd" or something similar. Interesting, nonetheless.
And then: there are those* with no PhD (or anything close), which are worthy of nothing but disregard/disdain.
*ie: Dunning-Kruger exemplars, Denyin'tologists and Naysayer Church adherents, that ignore the science and experiments that have given us the many modern conveniences, medical devices and SS equipment they so love.
"As soon as electrons become sentient and can discern differences in metal, then directional cables may be a thing. Until then, even a basic understanding of electricity would tell you it’s 100% marketing and makes 0% difference in the sound you hear."
This is 21st century science in a nutshell. "My basic understanding of science is more than enough to start making claims".
Well, this has been interesting, if a bit cranky at times. Discussions on these and other forums always seem to come down to "my Phd is bigger than your Phd" or something similar. Interesting, nonetheless.
Many of the explanations are well above my understanding. I'm still struggling with how and why the current has to travel backwards as much as forward in my circuitry and how it must get to where it's going in the first place. I'm just glad that it does. My understanding of electricity and it's properties are pretty basic. It has a pretty good bite to it when it escapes and I'm able to turn it on and off with a switch. I enjoy many of it's wonderful properties without understanding it like an EE does. I'm good with that.
As to my original question about non-directional interconnects and whether they can develop a memory, I'm still a bit puzzled because there is so much disagreement on the subject. Ultimately, I will let my ears decide and see which camp I land in or if I will just keep scratching my head. I do appreciate any and all who spoke up. Thanks guys.
@jea48Honestly, one of the best and easiest-to-follow physics-level (rather than engineering-level) explanation of how an electric signal travels through a cable is the one by Veritasium that I linked above. Here it is again.
Thank you...
I will have to watch the Video again a couple times. I watched his first video. I didn’t see this one before.
I first learned how electricity works here on Agon in 2010. Oddly the thread was titled "directional cables?".
A member started posting about how an electrical signal actually travels down a wire. I thought what Planet is this guy from?...
I would appreciate your thoughts on this white paper from the Late Ralph Morrison.
Storing or moving energy.
There is a common misconception that signals are carried in conductors. Somehow this association crosses over to the idea that conductors carry both signals and energy. A few simple calculations can show that this is a false idea. Consider a 50-ohm transmission line carrying a 5-volt logic signal. The initial current at switch closure is 500 mA. A typical trace is a a gram-mole of copper that has 6 x 1023 copper atoms (Avogadro’s number). Each atom can contribute one electron to current flow. Knowing the charge on an electron makes it easy to show that the average electron velocity for 500 mA is a few centimeters per second. What is even more interesting is that only a trillion electrons are involved in this current flow. This means that only one electron in a trillion carries the current. This also says that the magnetic field that moves energy is not located in the conductors. The only explanation that makes sense is that energy in the magnetic field must be located in the space between two conductors.Conductors end up directing energy flow - not carrying the energy.
The electric field in the conductor that causes current flow presents a similar picture. For a transmission line trace 5 mils above a ground plane, the electric field strength in the space under the trace is about 49,000 V/m. The electric field inside the conductor might be 0.1 V per meter. Energy in an electric field is proportional to field strength squared. The ratio of the square of field strengths in and near a conductor is about 2.4 x 1011. It is safe to say that there is very little electric or magnetic field energy in a trace or conducting plane. Since the energy is present and it is not in the conductors it must be in the space between the conductors. This is true for sine waves or square waves at all frequencies including dc. This one idea is not often discussed in circuit theory. This one idea solves most interference problems. This one idea is at the heart of a good circuit board layout. If the energy that represents information is carried in spaces it makes sense that we must keep these spaces free from interfering fields. The path should also control the characteristic impedance so there are controlled reflections. What we really need to do is supply a smooth path for logic energy flow.
If we accept the idea that fields carry energy in space, it must be true at all frequencies. That is the law. If it is true for light, it must also be true for 60Hz power and at DC. For utility power, the energy travels in the space between conductors, not in the conductors. This is not the picture presented by circuit diagrams, where energy seems to be carried by conductors. In digital circuits, the signals and energy travel in the spaces between traces or between traces and conducting surfaces.
Buildings have halls and walls. People move in the halls, not the walls. Circuits have traces and spaces. Signals and energy move in the spaces, not in the traces.
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So the signal travels in the space, dielectric, insulating material, between the current carrying conductors in one direction from the source >>> to the load at near the speed of light in a vacuum. Correct? If not please reword how it should be stated.
If Teflon is used for the insulation covering the conductors and the signal travels through the Teflon insulation it makes it easier to understand, imo, why the type of dielectric material used matters and can have an impact on signal, and how it affects the sound we hear from the speakers.
Also it would explain burn-in, break-in, settle-in, what ever you want to call it of, say, interconnects, and speaker cables. After the break-in process doesn’t the cable become directional? If reversed wouldn’t the process have to start all over?
I believe in directionality of all solid core wire. Especially solid silver core wire. Just asking is the type dielectric insulating material used at play in directionality?
Thanks again for responding to my earlier post. And hopefully this post as well, in advance.
Do you even understand what response to impulse is, or how this is relevant to any and all signals? Very clearly not. Kindly stop posting things that do not have any connection to physics, history or reality, but only to your totally incorrect understanding of them.
... Kindly stop posting things that do not have any connection to physics, history or reality, but only to your totally incorrect understanding of them ...
Sorry, but this forum is open to all, even to those like you who claim to be a "victim" of the conversation here.
I'm glad to know I'm not the only victim
If you have a complaint about a user here, take it to the moderators. You can use the "Contact Us" link at the bottom of every page.
The story you keep telling yourself that ’nobody understands electricity’ is completely false - and funnily enough, it was Feynman that with QED (Nobel in 1965) added the last pieces to the puzzle. You quote, but you don’t read or understand.
To anyone ACTUALLY INTERESTED in expanding their understanding of this idea/theory, as regards electricity/electromagnetism, I repost:
There are simply too many variables and unknowns (95-96%) in our universe, that disallow the categorical propositions, presented by the ignorant/uneducated.
Do you even understand what response to impulse is, or how this is relevant to any and all signals? Very clearly not. Kindly stop posting things that do not have any connection to physics, history or reality, but only to your totally incorrect understanding of them.
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