Do speaker cables really make a difference ?

@soix 

If you wanna stop messing around with entry-level cables, buy these Acoustic Zen Satori cables at a great price and go to the next level.  If they don’t work out just turn around and sell them at little/no loss as there’s a fluid market for AZ cables.  Just do it.  You won’t be disappointed. 
https://www.usaudiomart.com/details/649912537-acoustic-zen-satori-shotgun-speaker-cable-8ft-spades-at-both-ends/

Thanks for the heads up, I will take a look.

Of course they do, just like everything else, power cords included (big time).

Do not listen to the naysayers. All they do is repeat stupid stuff they have read in 1973. Maybe they once tried some cheap-@ss Monster Cable (LOL) and didn't hear a difference (no kidding?). In a decent system, swapping cables can be as audible as swapping amps, and sometimes more audible than swapping DACs. Of course, going from multi strand OFC 16 brand A to multi strand OFC 16 brand B won't necessarily give a huge difference, sometimes it does, sometimes not. But compare your favorite lamp cord to a quality, well engineered cable, be it solid core, ribbon, whatever, different materials, and the difference will be very audible. 

@jasonbourne52 you never let go, do you? don't you get tired of repeating yourself again and again and again? it's both pathetic and hilarious.

How about one's perception involving speaker cables you may enjoy thoroughly on a trial loan but they're the most expensive? I mean, I don't want to like them better but it's pretty undeniable as to the benefit. I want to like lamp cord better. 

My overriding measure of listening pleasure is lack of listening fatigueWas rocking it for close to six hours last night. Purist aqueous. Hate to pay but may have been reeled in. Fourth set tried, one more to go.

@rsa speaker cables improvement' leading to lowering loop resistance and inductance, does make sound impact. the longer cable is the more impact you will hear. 4 Ohms speakers also will show higher impact vs 8 Ohms set. 

I hate to sound Prickish, But i have learned that the better the audio gear, the more noticeable changes are to the ears. Once i stepped up to more higher end gear as in components, the cables made more of a difference to me. Stepping up in components were very noticeable, then adding different cables. I tested 2 sets of speaker cables on my basement system, The dealer brought them over to listen as well. One set was very close to what i had, $600.00 the next pair for $1300.00 sounded like someone covered the speakers with blankets. The dealers face turned red.

Find a dealer that will let you take the cables home, all the reviews in the world can't prepare you for what they will sound like in your home.

I keep seeing comments about the different sound you get from different cables. I don't want cables with a "sound signature" I just want my cables to send through what is there not change it. This takes us back to simply proper gauge for length and amount of power you have.

I had a very high resolution system, and added flat copper speaker wires to the system. The change and improvement in sound was very audible. The cables were wide, and flat. That drastically increases surface area, while maintaining cross sectional area. The improvement in sound was most noticeable when listening to vibes.

I just want my cables to send through what is there not change it. This takes us back to simply proper gauge for length and amount of power you have.

And how do you know which cables do not change anything in the signal path?

@randym860 EVERYTHING has a sound signature. It's not alway the tone, or the frequency curve, it can be "precision", "depth", "width", "prat". Nothing is absolutely neutral and that includes cables. Some are closer to neutrality, for sure, but absolute neutrality doesn't exist.

@dentdog of course. That "expectation bias" explanation is utter BS. I have drawers full of audio cables, sometimes I swap them around, just for the sake of it, I already own them and have no "expectations" for "better" sound, but it sounds different every time. Same goes for power cord, I was rearranging my system lately and thought I would swap the various power cords around again and try them on different components but only ONE arrangement (this power cord on THAT device, and so on) gives me magic. The rest sounds vastly inferior. I already own the power cords, only the different requirements of the various electronics in my system decide which power cord goes where, not novelty or price or "pride of ownership". That argument is for deaf "audiophiles" with a lousy system.

I'm more tech and scientific minded myself. While it makes common sense that more of anything (larger cable with more metal) would be better, I'd like to see empirical data showing this to be true.

For years people have sold snake oil to every industry by convincing people they needed to buy this or that. Then the so called "experts" and pundits step in and support the theory blindly. I'm always going to be skeptical unless faced with scientific data...not theory.

The other thing I think is missing is the reality I would think that the right answer is "it depends". I would think if you had completely ultra high-end everything then yes connecting everything together with high quality cabling makes sense. A good example of this is network cabling. Though Cat5 cabling might look like Cat6a cabling they are vastly different. Cat5 will probably top out at around 1GB of data max while Cat6a is rated to 10GB. Obviously the ability to carry more data signal is a direct relationship to the cable itself and it's shielding.

But like the Cat6a example above, what if the rest of my network can only perform at 1GB or less. Does it make sense to have Cat6a cable? Maybe...maybe not. If I can only consume 1GB or less then the Cat6a is overkill even if it does make me feel better.

troll

For years people have sold snake oil to every industry by convincing people they needed to buy this or that. Then the so called "experts" and pundits step in and support the theory blindly. I’m always going to be skeptical unless faced with scientific data...not theory.

@dadawada What about using your own ears? I find that by reading reviewers I’ve learned to trust over the years I can get a pretty good idea of what a component sounds like and which ones I’d like to audition. Plus, with the proliferation of and access to used equipment these days it makes trying things out at home fairly feasible despite the ongoing disappearance of good dealers. Not saying measurements aren’t important because they surely are, but not sure putting them above subjective opinions from people you trust and/or who seem to have similar tastes/hearing as you might be like fighting with one hand behind your back. Just my $0.02 FWIW.

Another ASR troll?  
 

Make a difference?

Yes.

Troll?...Are you that insecure? 

What? Anyone comes in with a different perspective they're a troll...🤣

Guess so. 🙄

Amen, Todd7.. We Todd's think alike ;) lol

Well...pull your heads out of the sand for a moment and go do some research...or not...and you will see plenty of people that know a lot more than me who say the same thing and have done actual scientific test to prove it.

Enjoy your little echo chamber.. 🙄

"done actual scientific test..."

Hiding behind that old science claim, are we? Want some whine to go with those sour grapes? 

The first and most important aspect of science is observation. It's done through our senses. What you're referring to is data collected and tabulated to be referred to at a later date. And, what you're doing is using hubris as a shield of sorts to justify your preconceived notion that everything can be measured and can't be improved on. Quite the echo chamber you dwell in, eh? That would account for why they all say the same thing, like a mantra chanted by a cult.

Nature of science

Observations yield what scientists call data. Scientists analyse and interpret data in order to figure out how the data informs their hypotheses and theories. Data can be represented by detailed graphs or models, but at the most basic level, data is just recorded observations.

You need to remember that the word is not the thing, the map is not the territory, it's all an approximation of an observation done scientifically by, in this case, the listener. 

All the best,
Nonoise

@dadawada Please post your scientific data and show us science deniers.

I think these have peen posted before. 

Ok, I'll play along since you asked...

The truth is if you normalize the raw data presented the actual difference is about .1dBu or less...hardly perceptible and certainly well within the range of other issues not accounted for in a less than controlled environment

Human nature is predisposed to a self-fulfilling prophecy...you believe therefore it is true. You bought into the notion that a very expensive cable makes a difference in your quality of sound. So naturally when you listen you hear a difference.  I'm not saying you don't hear a difference. I'm saying is that difference actually producing a higher quality sound...more close to the original...or if it is something else you are perceiving. 

Look, if you believe cables make a difference to you then by all means feel free...it's your money. But if someone comes in here with an alternative position my advice to you is stop with the immature "Troll" statements. 

Later...Pura Vida...

Human nature is predisposed to a self-fulfilling prophecy...you believe therefore it is true. 

And you completely immune to to those shortcomings of the human nature? What you are describing is confirmation bias, which by definition, goes both ways.

Interesting read here:

My conclusions here is an ASR sleeper cell has been awoken.

This study is on Single End and XLR Interconnects but the research is out there.

@dadawada where is your empirical, scientific data that refutes what we hear. Rather you start spinning just like Amir did when @kota1 engaged him on a similar subject.

Well...pull your heads out of the sand for a moment and go do some research...or not...and you will see plenty of people that know a lot more than me who say the same thing and have done actual scientific test to prove it.

Enjoy your little echo chamber.. 🙄

Microsoft Word - Interconnect-cable-measurements--Kunchur.docx (sc.edu)

Summary and Conclusions
The effect of cables on the sonic performance of an audio system has been a contentious subject for a few decades [31]. The controversy is fueled in part by the paucity of journal-published blind listening tests that prove there is at all an audible difference. Listening tests are tricky and can easily produce both false negative and false positive results; the relevant psychology and neurology is reviewed in [1, 32–36]. Another reason for disbelief in interconnect audibility may be due to a misguided focus on irrelevant measurements such as frequency response, resistance, and nominal reactance, whose resulting signal errors are indeed far below the presumed audibility thresholds.

The present work investigated other kinds of signal alterations during transmission through a cable, besides the above parameters. It was found that noise in some cables exists at audible levels. While the nominal reactive time constants may possibly be too short (<100 ns) for discernibility, the decay times arising from non- ideal effects are not obviously negligible (~1 s), especially when multiple occurrences combine along the audio chain. Within the audio community at large, there tends to be a misunderstanding and underestimation of the spectacular capabilities and extraordinary sensitivity of human hearing: For example, the ear can detect a cochlear basilar-membrane amplitude of ∼1 pm [37–39] and has a temporal resolution in the microseconds that has no direct connection with the maximum audible frequency.

The present work found clear systematic differences in the electrical performance of interconnect cables of different grades. Besides the electrical signal alterations studied here, vibrational effects (“microphonics”) may also potentially affect cable performance [17]. However unlike loudspeaker cables, interconnects lie in high impedance circuits and carry low currents. Thus they have smaller magnetic forces and induced voltages from mechanical motion. Another potential source of signal degradation in cables is triboelectric noise from internal motion; but it is estimated to be 180 dB below typical signal levels [45].

Previous work [1] demonstrated the audibility of cable pathways, pointing to differences in RF noise pickup as the likely cause. But it left open the question of whether the noise differences were due to shielding or balanced versus unbalanced topologies. The present work sheds light on that question by showing that its unbalanced cable S (of the same brand as cable A in [1]) is almost equally quiet. Furthermore, there are clear time-domain performance differences between the various interconnects tested. While cable manufacturers undoubtedly make a variety of measurements on their own products during the course of their development, the present results are of value to the consumer because they provide measurements across different brands made by a non-commercial entity.

Posted by our friends at WBF.

Video summary of the above paper. 

He is Hungarian,  this is a good Speaker Cable 101 video.

@dadawada it's all about money, for you skeptics, right? All I read is "expensive cables", "it's your money", "a fool and his money", etc etc... looks like the wallet is as tight as the ears canals, for you folks. More seriously, had you ever made actual experiments, you would know that, for example, Belden 9497 cable sounds VERY different from similarly priced, entry level cable. There are people who actually PREFER the sound signature of the Belden cable, to the sound signature of cables costing much more. 

What's more, if confirmation bias is indeed a thing, because yes we are humans, it does go BOTH WAYS and you people are not immune to it, as @thyname pointed out. Weirdly, when someone states this (and there is no way around it: it IS a fact, IT DOES GO BOTH WAYS) there's never any answer from the skeptics. You guys usually choose to ignore the remark. 

I'll keep calling people "trolls" when they behave as such, and frankly, coming ON THE CABLE FORUM and basically calling us cable believers (and I wouldn't be surprised, in the grand scheme of things, if we are quite the majority) "delusional" or "fools" is nothing else than TROLLING. I've been trying all manners of cables, from the cheapest to the expensive, in the last 25 years and let me say this, if you can't hear the differences between two cables made of different geometry / materials, then how can you hear the difference between two DACs? Between two amplifiers? And HOW, good Lord, HOW DO YOU PICK YOUR ELECTRONICS and HOW DO YOU BUILD YOUR SYSTEMS? do you exclusively look at numbers? Ears are NOT TO BE TRUSTED!

...Trolls....

Well said @rolox ​​​​​​

I don’t care if people think cables have no effect on sound in the same way I don’t care if some think the earth is flat. I find it amusing in a funny way, because in my system cables have a big effect on sound. 

But I wonder if those who claim that all cables sound the same have actually tried some good cables and then came to this conclusion.

It’s not about research data and papers. It’s about trying a different good cable and still getting the same sound. Now that would be interesting.

I never called anyone "delusional" or "fools". You said that. I simply said I don't agree with everything you are saying and still don't.

You started with the "Trolls" calling I guess because my opinion is threatening to you...

Wallet tight?...well...let's just say I've been very blessed to have been executive of a number of companies that have been acquired and did ok. As executive of a publicly traded company today I still do ok. I'm just more careful with what and how I spend my money...

Stop feeding this troll. 

Amir is calling you @dadawada 

Still waiting for your non existent scientific papers and or data.

Well...pull your heads out of the sand for a moment and go do some research...or not...and you will see plenty of people that know a lot more than me who say the same thing and have done actual scientific test to prove it.

Enjoy your little echo chamber.. 

@dadawada : would you be able to describe your audio system? I am very curious. FYI, there is a section in Audiogon called "Virtual Systems" where you can upload pictures of your system, describe your components, etc. 

@tjag what is your “good cable” definition?

What a good cable means to me is that it is better than the one I had before while still being affordable as I bi-wire and need 4 meters in length per speaker. By the way I try to buy used to save costs.

As an example, I started with the Chord Clearway interconnects based on Whathifi recommendations, later I upgraded to the Chord Shawline first version. After that I purchased the Shawline next version and out of curiosity asked the seller what he replaced his Shawline with, he said the Audioquest Water and recommended me to get it. So I bought it after a while and it is amazing and better than all the rest.

I also used the Van den hul Clearwater speaker cables which were also recommended by Whathifi and liked how treble sounded especially with female voices, but it was soft on bass. The issue became very obvious after I replaced the speaker original internal wires and crossover connections with the Clearwater and had to reconnect the originals back in a hurry. I watched a YT video on cable comparisons and the Van den hul Inspiration came in third. It was affordable in the used market so I bought it.

Only to find out that the Inspiration was good on bass but weak on treble in my system :) so I shunted it with the Clearwater and now I have the best of the two cables.

Like many have agreed...YES speaker cable can definitely make a difference in sound BUT I'm not a believer in the power cable snake oil. 

Listen to what Gene from Audioholics explains.

 @ejspain2020  LOL Gene has the credibility of a rock!

I make power cables using speaker cables and they sound better than the specialized power cable I paid 200usd for on the used market.

Here is Paul CEO of PS audio admitting that Audioquest dragon power cable beats all his power cables.

Interesting that in the Mega Test on speaker cable revealed that the preferred cables had a more linear capacitance. 

Capacitance has allays been marked as constant and measured at high frequency, In the test, it is shown as somewhat erratic at the low frequency. The less erratic the better sounding?

@tjag 

Yep, the audio Quest Hurricane had the same effect on my system the Paul talks about with his reference system.

Try Vogue Audio Silver Speaker  Cables, they're inexpensive and great quality!   You can't go wrong with Vogue Audio online Speaker Cables. 

Enjoy the music 🙂

Try Vogue Audio Pure Silver Speaker Cables?  They're inexpensive and great quality.  Believe me, they are worth looking at.   

Hey Gradyjames, what's your feelings on the Vogue Audio cables?? 😁

All I can say is ignore the nay sayers and enjoy the hobby. Life is simple. "When you have money, you can make choices, when you have no money, your choices are made for you."

I was using 10ga speaker wire from the hardware store. I thought it sounded good until I bought more expensive oxygen free copper 10ga Speaker cable. The highs were much more defined. More clarity and detail in the midrange. The bass was about the same, but it seemed as if the amp has better decay and recovery of deep notes changing pitch. It seemed faster responding if that makes sense. My budget is tight so I get what I can afford. I have no idea how much $$ =how much better sound or the cut off $$ before you split hairs? I spent about 2X for the new speaker cable.  All I know in my case the the of speaker  cable did make a difference.