Well, I finally got out and did some actual listening over the weekend, and I can see that I have quite an adventure ahead of me.
I listened to the Focal Profile 928, Polk LSi15 and a couple of Martin Logan's (Vista and Vantage). The Focal was by far the worst of the bunch; as a matter of fact, it was downright awful, and at a price of $5K for the pair?????????? Good grief...
The Polk LSi15 was better, but far and away from what I expected, given the good press. I use to own Martin Logan Sequel II's, and liked them for their midrange qualities. The newer Logan's were pretty nice, but far too dead in the dynamics department. Very nice rendition of vocals though, and great soundstage presentation.
The more I listened to the typical box speaker, the more I believe that design won't satisfy me. My wife, who is really not "in" to music, commented to me that the Focal sounded "like a box," so there you have it.
I'll probably have to wait until CES, because there is little in the way of "high end" in my area.
Well I hate to tell you but unless you heard each pair of speaker with all the same equipment and in the right positions, you can't compare them in relative terms.
Also, in my experience, many dealers can't properly setup a system so you can't compare them in absolute terms either. They get lazy and let the constant changes get in the way of competent setup. For each room, you have to choose the right speaker. For each speaker, you have to choose the right gear to suit it. To complicate the already complicated, not all gear suits all speakers well.
There are plenty of posts and articles talking about the crappy setups at CES. Get this - you can hear $100,000 systems that sound bad. How is that for your decision making?! Will you then think all that big-name gear isn't any good either? hahaha. Same story, same problem.
My advice to you, if you want to have fun during your adventure, is to only make decisions based on what you hear in your own system. It is the only way to judge fairly and not overlook a diamond in the rough. That is the only way you can take all the variables into account.
About all you can tell when you hear a dealer's set up of a set of speakers of good general reputation that sounds poor is that the dealer hasn't spent much time on set up. Good quality and well set up speakers can sound amazingly good, so much so that less than anal audiophiles can get all they need if they are as careful and attentive in their own home set up. Ditto audio shows.
Yeah well what I am gonna say does not matter at this point, but as stated above I could make a pair of 50 dollar sony bookshelfs in a bedroom sound better than anything you probably witnessed at dealers, showroom, or hotelsÂ… You need to find one you are serious enough about and get them home on your equipment and setup according to the way you intend on using them. Its always a big hassle and lots of trial and error work especially with speakers.
I like vintage speakers better than what's on the market today. I have some JBL L150A's that sounds better than anything on the market period! I think these JBL's were the best that they ever made. You can find these speakers cheap sometimes, I found some for only $190 ! Good Luck
Looking at the range of speakers discussed in your threads suggests that you really need to get out and listen to MANY speakers in order to narrow the field a bit.
Like most people, you will probably come away from CES with a sense that 2 or 3 systems connected, and the rest did not. But if you can, listen in people's homes, because they have taken months, if not years, to hone the sound and the room. Where are you located? Perhaps there are folks in your area who would welcome a visit.
Tvad, I noticed the Shahinians - a big caveat, note that they use a driver which may not be obtainable to a user if one (or more) needed to be replaced. :-(
Re comments of Seadweller's wife that the speaker sounded boxy. Am I the only one who finds this term too ambiguious to be useful. Are we talking about a coloration in tone due to resonances in the wood and construction used in the box. If that is all we are talking about then wouldn't the set up of panels/electro's/dipoles be just as likely to introduce tonal variations due to set up issues which many folks cannot overcome?
I've been able to set up box speakers with minimal resonance issues more easily and as successfully as any panels or electrostat's in my home(s). I'm not suggesting that one sounds better than another, its horses for courses as always.
BTW, Tvad I bet you don't hear any boxiness in your set up! :-)
I agree that the only way to best determine whether a speaker will work for an individual, is for that individual to get the speaker in their own environment. Unfortunately, it's not very practical.
At this point, I'm trying to determine the general characteristics of a particular brand. To complicate things, I'm sure that model ranges within a brand may or may not sound different!
I guess the only way to really get a picture of what's out there is to put this endeavor to rest until I head out to the CES show. Although side-by-side and/or equipment matched comparisons will be nearly impossible, it will certainly help narrow the playing field.
I haven't given up on boxes completely, but the few I listened to recently sounded hollow for some reason. Cabinet resonances? Poor placement? Voicing? Driver selection? Who knows......
Seadweller, I remember occasionally being irked and not finding the holy grail (for me only, others may disagree) for a long time. The old, three box version of the Audio Physic Caldera sounded phenomenal, and retailed for 20K. I couldn't afford them at the time even at the discounted price of 10 K. The culmination of my approximately 15 year (intermittent) search was the Intuitive Design Summit, which I love. Perhaps worth a listen.
10+ threads into this, I for one am unclear as to what you want. A Klipsch? A Merlin? A giant killer from Asia? A full-range speaker? Planar, box, horn???? CES will help narrow the field, but it does so under conditions that do not mirror those that exist in your home. And if vintage is on your list of considerations, you won't find it there. If you could answer a few questions, it would really help narrow your list now, prior to wandering through the proverbial audio meat market in hopes that the same speaker that wows you in a 10-minute audition will also be a long-term keeper once settled into your home.
Room size? (14' x 30' is it?) What amp will you use? 10W, 100W, 1000W? Music mainstays? (Jazz, jazz vocals, etc.) What do you want that you're not getting from your VR4s? Speaker size restrictions, if any? What source will you use? Budget ($5K, is that correct?)
Again, if you stated in what region you live, there also may be A'goners willing to host an audition.
You weren't satisfied with your previous VR4's, yet, many would consider this speaker as excellent value for money and a great speaker in its own right.
I suspect you are in a tough situation for a highly dynamic but not boxy full range speaker, at the $5K price point (new). I am not at all surprised by your disappointments, so far.
I'll refrain from any more advice and watch with interest your selection process....G'luck!
Fair questions, which I'll be happy to answer if it will help narrow things:
Room Size: Approximately 14 x 20 (shorter than I thought) Amplifier: 250wpc solid state Music: From Bach to Prong, mostly jazz Size Res.: None within reason, floorstander preferred Source: Currently CD, but vinyl as well in the future Budget: I'd like to stay below $5K if possible
Now, about my prior VR-4's:
Likes: Excellent imaging and soundstaging, wide response, pretty darned good midrange, fairly good highs.
Dislikes: Excessive midbass warmth, slow presentation lacked pace and transient attack, loose bass, total lack of dynamics and punch, compression at higher levels.
The system may be moved to a much larger space, so I don't want to limit my choices based on the current room size. As I've said, I like a good detailed presentation with excellent soundstaging and imaging, but I'm dying for that fast paced, transient, dynamic, punchy, lively sound that doesn't change character as you raise the volume.
I had the first generation VR-4's, so it's quite likely that Von Schweikert's new designs are quite different than mine, which was some 10 years old. Even the VR-4.5 was supposed to have been a marked improvement over the VR-4, and it came less than a year after the VR-4 was introduced. I believe the VR-4.5 went to 9" Eton woofers with cast frames, whereas the woofers in my VR-4's were 8" polypropylene with stamped metal frames. The cross-over point was also evidently changed to cure what was a common complaint, lack of mid-bass punch and dynamics, which slowed the overall presentation of the speaker and made the bass sound tubby because of a "hole" in the spectrum.
I liked the VR-4's enough to keep them for 10+ years, so believe me, they did a lot of things right. I was able to overcome many of the bass issues, but the system still lacked dynamics and impact. They were a very laidback speaker system, and I knew that going in, but I felt their other charasterics outweighed the lack of dynamics.
Eventually, I got bored of the lack of excitement the speakers generated, and found that I no longer listened to the system. That's primarly what prompted me to sell them and start the search.
I'm in the Tampa Bay area of Florida, and the selection here is terrible, so it's very, very unlikely I'll have the luxury of auditioning a speaker in my own home, let alone within 100 miles!
Seadweller, I noticed that you are in Tamba Bay...so last piece of advice, promise! I suggest you check out Atlas Pro Audio....they are in your area, I think they have both a pro gear sales oulet and a studio. They use PMC's in their studio but they also sell ADAM speakers...both are very highly regarded. What can you lose, except for a couple of hours of your time....it would surely be a worthwhile visit for an audition. I can assure you that you won't lack for proper music dynamics with a pro PMC or ADAM main or mid field monitor, even in the bass, after all, musicians hear these every day during studio sessions; these have to be both accurate and realistic.
For the qualities listed, you might like the Talon Audio Hawks. They are very fast, detailed, have good bass for their size, and do like to play loudly. They seem to thrive on high power amps (which you have). If you like lots of deep bass, you might want a subwoofer, which, if you cross over the Hawks, will allow them to play even more loudly and dynamically. I'm using them in an 18 x 12 living room that opens onto a dining room and kitchen, with Atma-Sphere MA1s (about 140 w/ch), and they are able to get too loud to talk over without {the speakers} sounding strained. Talon has been bought by Rives, so any concerns that you may have read about the viability of the com[pany should resolved. Or get Magnapan 1.6 QRs. QUESTION - What the heck are markup tags? I just got an error because I had square brackets in my post.
It sounds to me like you might enjoy some of the vintage Altecs. I have Model 17's with 604 drivers (and listen nearfield), but for your room you might want Model 19's. Dynamics galore and crank them til your heart is content. The drawback is you will probably end up wanting to go with a tube amp in the future. Plus, you can pick up a pair for $2000 or less. If you move to a larger room, no problem with them filling them. They roll off pretty quickly at 40hz and don't extend to 20 khz. But I can't hear that high of frequency so that wouldn't bother me.
Anyway, others will probably not agree and they may not be for you, but they might just be the ticket you are looking for. Good luck in your search and I hope you find what floats your boat.
Seadweller (do you frequently sell on Timezone, by the way?),
Specifically which amp, cables & CD player are you using? Sorry for all of the questions, but it will help to recommend speakers that will fit your stated requirements.
Also, you might consider initiating another thread requesting the opportunity to hear systems in the Tampa area. I'm certain that A'goners in that area would be happy to have you over for a listen. In fact, one of them sold a pair of Green Mountain Audio Continuum 3s not long ago. At around $4-5K used, I would recommend putting them on your short list.
And please do let us know which amp/cables/CD you have.
Shows are a problem all over the world, one way to look at it is if a room sounds good, it must be really good well set up. Some speakers I have heard you may like, I like a fast neutral unboxy speaker. Zu Definition Silverline range 2nd hand Quad 988/989, the new 2805 are incredible, but out of your price range. Green Mountain(always heard with Mcintosh amps, very good sound at shows) The one I bought Acoustic Zen Adagio: fast neutral detailed, the biggest upgrade my system has ever had, bar none. I know the Adagios are flavour of the month at the moment, but they were better than anything else I auditioned, even $22000 Peak Consult Empress
save up for eggleston andras- 1's or even 2's. maybe you'll come to like sonus faber electra amators or the extremas. as for von schweikerts, i own a pair, and the (new?) carbon fiber midrange is as fast as a planar speaker and you'll get all the dynamics you're looking for. anyway, think of these suggestions as catagories. as for speakers from bygone days i was never disappointed in the sound of B&W 802's or aerial 10t's either- quite the opposite.
One of the worst listening experiences I've ever had was Edge amps and pre-amp with Wisdom Audio tower speakers with Wisdom subs. Sound was etched, glarey, and irritating. Can't tell you what the music sounded like, don't remember hearing any music. Of course, these were models from about 8-10 years ago, but still...this was a system costing more than $60,000.00 for speakers and amps/pre-amp alone. Don't remember what CD source was used.
Tyler/Excel line. You have not heard these yet. Ty might be at the CES show. Also look at his web, he lists folks who will let you demo in their homes. Maybe someomne is in your area. Thats how I got to hear them, I live in BR and drove to NO to hear them. Worked out fine. btw thanks for your honesty on your reviews. paulbest
Thanks again for putting up with my inquiries everyone!
Tvad - I'll look into home auditions, but you're right, it's not easy shipping 100+ lb. containers back and forth. Perhaps there are some local A'goner's that would accommodate.
Boa2 - Amp is a Parasound Halo A-21, pre-amp is a Sonic Frontiers SFL-1 Hybrid, CD player is a Rotel RCD-965BX, and cables are Audioquest (don't recall the version).
David12 - Can the Adagio's play loudly in a large room with two 6.5" drivers?
Shadorne - Thanks for the "last piece of advice!" I will certainly check out Atlas. I listened to the PMC MB2 and IB2, and they are incredible systems, but both are well over $10K. Their sound is what I'm looking for in a speaker.
Honestl - I'll check out the Talon's, as I've read how fast and dynamic they are. They might be up my alley as well. I had Magnepan 1.6's, and they only lasted 30 days. They simply don't recreate the "live event" for most program material.
Wwwrecords - Indeed, I used to own the Altec Model 19's, and with all their idiosyncracies, they truly were magnificent speakers. Problem is, I don't have the space for another "washer/dryer." They fall outside of the "reasonable" part of my size limitations clause!
French-fries - I've heard the Eggleston speakers, and they're very similar to my VR-4's. Too "audiophile" for me. I think I owe it to myself to at least listen to the current VR-4jr and VR-4sr.
I listened to the PMC MB2 and IB2, and they are incredible systems, but both are well over $10K. Their sound is what I'm looking for in a speaker.
Then search around for top Pro implementations, active even. Given the space restraints none of the usual "audiophile" products will fit the bill. Of course, go used: Meyer, PMC, Adam, some JBL... Or maybe, a Klipsch (but you'll have to modd certain things). Unfortunately, a Klipschorn won't fit into yr room and it's too expensive - even used. Likewise, horns (that reproduce dynamics with ease) are large. Maybe Earl Geddes' "Summa" are a more conventional type of spkr that would do the job -- but I've only heard OF & about them.
I don't know how the upper end Totems sound, but I sure have been impressed with the Forests and the Arros. And this coming from a horn fan who finds most box speakers to sound too sequestered with respect to conveying the sparkle and energy of the event. There is a pair of Wind speakers for sale right now. I have no affiliation with the seller.
Others that fit your stated requirements: Green Mountain Audio Zu Definition (probably too pricey, even used) Klipschorn (if slightly modified, and if you have proper corners) Silverline La Folia (a used pair will be in your price range) Acoustic Zen Adagio? (I've not heard them) Oskar Heil Kithara
Based upon your sonic goals, the following will not satisfy you (in my opinion, naturally): Aerial Von Schweikert Tyler B&W Gallo Quad
They are all good speakers, yet they fall into the category of those you have already crossed off your list.
I agree with you totally, but happened upon a pair of Omega Super 3 Alnicos. These are Single driver types and although they are in a box, they are the most open and natural speakers I have heard and I have owned 30 pairs different types. Check out Omega line.
Seadweller, there is an Omega dealer in Clearwater
Can the Adagio's play loudly in a large room with two 6.5" drivers?
Yes, absolutely, I have heard them demoed in a large room and they play very loud, the transmission line certainly deepens the base, I am not sure if they account for loudness. More important for me is they play soft, without the soundstage collapsing, that is the test of a good speaker to me. I bought one of the first pairs in the UK and everyone the importer demoed the speakers to, bought them, everyone. That includes someone who had just bought Quad 989's and had only come to listen to a CD player. I understand Robert Lee can't make them fast enough.
Judging from the speakers that you auditioned, it seems like you went to Tweeter (or SoundAdvice?). Tweeter is a horrible environment in which to evaluate speakers. I know because I used to work there, and every room in every store sounds bad. It's really a shame. Any of the speakers you listended to can probably sound pretty good if they are well set up.
Find a good shop that has a good, acoustically treated room and audition there.
I own a pair of JM Lab - Focal 918's and they sound wonderful. They are not boxy at all. TAS recently reviewed these and they received high accolades. IMO Martin Logan speakers donÂ’t even come close to the emotion of a Focal. Also, since I like deep bass I added a Rel subwoofer. It mates really well.
Sounds to me that you did not audition them in the correct environment and with the correct equipment. See if you can get an at home trial. If you don't like them, you can return them if the store has a good return policy.
Boa2 - You hit the nail on the head with your comment that box speakers "sound too sequestered with respect to conveying the sparkle and energy of the event." That's what I'm looking for, the sparkle and energy of the event. Nearly all of the conventional speakers I've ever listened to lack that sparkle and energy. Nearly all of them are reticent.
My VR-4's, for example, would reproduce the crack of a stick against the rim of a snare drum in a way that sounded like a pillow was in between the microphone and the drum. The representation was there, but that sparkle and engergy (CRACK!) was missing. A plucked bass hung out in space forever, so things sounded sloooow. Bass drums were rendered with a "poof" instead of a solid "punch," and drum solos lacked that crisp, leading edge attack. They sounded this way in the showroom, and in 3 different environments with varying amplification, so it was a character of the speaker itself.
Perhaps I'm wrong, but I wonder if speaker designers are afraid to depart from that typical "audiophile" expectation of sound. That "warm" or "lush" presentation. Over the years, I've heard many, many speakers, that while voiced differently, had an overall laid back presentation. I don't mean to sound degrading, but my $30 PC speakers image like champs, so perhaps I'm trying to get "outside the box" (no pun intended).
I agree with your list of speakers that won't satisfy me. When I sold my VR-4's, I fell out of my chair when I saw just how many companies are now building conventional, multi-driver systems. How much can you really do with this design, aside from distinctive voicing?
I seem to gravitate towards two speaker designs, horn and planar. I loved my Logans and Magnepans, but they lacked punch and dynamics. I loved my Altec 19's, but they were far from being refined. I guess I'm looking for something that might not exist, so I'll have to take some time and determine just what compromises I'm willing to make.
1. I will audition the new Von Schweikert designs 2. I'd like to audition the Gallo Ref 3.1, just for curiosity sake, given the amount of good press and customer reviews they have received
That's why I mentioned Green Mountain Audio. They do not sound like a box speaker, instead conveying the crack of energized music. A used pair of Continuum 3s would be in your budget range.
Zu Definitions would also meet your requirements, but I doubt that a used pair could be had for $4-5K.
I hear that Pi Loudspeakers are very good. I've not heard them myself.
Finally, if Klipschorns are not an option--they take up no space in the room--you might consider a vintage pair of La Scalas. You will want to do a few modifications to them, which are easy to do. We had a pair mated with an ACI Titan subwoofer, and not one person who heard our system ever knew that we used a sub, the sound was that seamless. Including modifications to the speakers, the entire package would run you around $2200. If mated to the proper amp, you will have the sound you're after.
I'm very interested to hear more about the La Scalas. My only fear is that a "vintage" horn system (even though it's offered as a current model) might not provide sufficient detail, although I have read that the midrange in the La Scala is out-of-this-world....
They would certainly work in all but the largest spaces!
I seem to gravitate towards two speaker designs, horn and planar. I loved my Logans and Magnepans, but they lacked punch and dynamics. I loved my Altec 19's, but they were far from being refined. I guess I'm looking for something that might not exist, so I'll have to take some time and determine just what compromises I'm willing to make
My only fear is that a "vintage" horn system (even though it's offered as a current model) might not provide sufficient detail
Insufficient detail was never an issue in our system, in which we had modified 1977 La Scalas. Keep in mind that the speakers won't be the only limiting factor if it's detail you're after. Every other component will have a great deal to say about what comes out of the speaker. You can upgrade the La Scala tweeter if necessary, but if you change crossovers and upgrade your source--not to divert the discussion--I doubt you will feel the need to do so. You will want a speedy sub, however.
Good suggestion this design will certainly have a good transient response. I can't help but agree with the quote below from the link you gave (it is kind of obvious that Linkwitz is an engineer and not in marketing).
I have no problem, if people enjoy their music more, because it has passed through a certain interconnect, has been transformer balanced, amplified without feedback, processed through a reissued WW2 transmitter tube and sent to their speakers on litz wires of specific arrangement and purity, except that the money for these suggestions could have been spent on better speakers, for real improvements in accuracy of dynamic range and resolution. After all, the loudspeakers are by far the weakest link in the chain of components that are needed for sound reproduction.
I understand that the Linkwitz Orions are excellent speakers. However, don't they require 6 channels of amplification? And can they be had within his budget?
I built my Orions, ASP, cables, and bought an amp for a whooping $3800 plus/minus $100 for the choice of wood finish you want. And that is a conservative figure. Let see, on the top of my head..
Drivers........$1450 Cabinets, Paints, Glue.....$200 Cables and connectors...$150 ASP Xover(includes plans and pcb's, and case) ........$550 Amps...(ATI6012).......$1400 Misc....(saw blades, brush, nails, and shipping expenses etc.)....$100 So that come out to be $3850.
I 2nd Boa2's recommendation of Green Mountain Audio speakers & I do this from my personal experience.
Like Boa2 said - their form takes on the conventional box speaker look BUT they DO NOT sound like box speakers at all. They have superb all-round qualities: Excellent imaging and soundstaging, wide response, excellent midrange, excellent highs, NO excessive midbass warmth, NO slow presentation that lacks pace and transient attack, NO loose bass, excellent total dynamics and punch. Given that they are 1st order x-over speakers they do compress earlier than, say, 4th order x-over speakers. However, the SPL level at which they compress is reasonably high. For example, in the 3-way speakers I have the woofer compresses at 105dB SPL. I've never found it to be an issue in the 3+ years I've owned the speaker. I usually listen to music on average at 85dB SPL 10' away.
Several of Green Mountain Audio's models would fit your budget - the stand-mount Callisto, the Pico Medeo & a used C3 (flagship speaker). Also, Roy Johnson, the owner/designer is a fantastic person to deal with.
Disclaimer: I have NO (zero) financial or economic affiliation with Green Mountain Audio. I'm just a satisfied customer.
I have had the gma callisto's for almost a year. I second everything that bombaywalla has written. in addition, the bottom end is very well defined and clean. obviously you don't get the big dynamic oomph, but - and this is important to note - you get the bass that is in the recording, and it is incredibly well integrated with the mids and highs. if you do a high proportion of your listening to jazz, folk, vocals of any sort, then you will be astonished. to do justice to rock, you need a different speaker, or add a sub. this is not to say that it is subpar, merely, that it's limitations become apparent with rock. i feel no need to upgrade.......at this point. finally, the people at gma are a pleasure to deal with.
oh yeah--- i have no other connection with gma other than being a happy owner
Seadweller, I live in your area and noticed you have interest in auditioning the Gallo's. Are you familiar with St. Cecilia's Sound Gallery in the Clearwater area on Hwy.19? I've found Brian, the owner, to be a great guy and he's got a pretty good product lineup (including the Gallos's you mentioned.) I listened to them myself during my search for replacements of my Maggie 1.6's. What really floated my boat, but was out of my budget, were the Nolla Reference Vipers. He's just received a new Nola Viper model priced @ 5.5k that sounds like it's worth a listen.
Thanks.......I just came upon them accidently, while searching the net for dealers in the area......Never heard of them, but I'm going to swing by on Saturday.....
Having owned both GMA's entry level Europa as well as the high end Calypso's I can tell you these are the least "boxy" box speakers I have heard. You really should try to do an audition before buying anything else. They are the real deal.
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