Hardware or source materail

Having owned LS50’s and now Reference One’s I can confidently say that you are missing out on a lot of potential in the amp department. I don’t think you need to spend $7k, but you could, easily. 

Probably so. But I posted this on several audio sites and so far, no one has answered the core question. 

It seems to me that everyone is focused on their XYZ 1000 and not on, shall we say, the actual sound. I fully acknowledged in my original post that better hardware would make a difference. 

The question remains: If a $60 vinyl record (vs a $30 mass produced one) has such a huge impact on the audio quality vis a vis the actual sound that I hear, would you not spend your money on more of the high quality source material first? 

Have I touched the third rail of so called Audiophile-ness"

@noromance  That is a disgusting post.

So... Interesting comment but still no one engaged in the actual question. 

So... What on earth do you mean? I can be disgusting, just ask my wife.

As a septuagenarian music lover who shares your appreciation for jazz, I’ve found that upgrades to components can but don’t always make a significant difference. Not surprised you found the 45 rpm vinyl noticeably better. My suggestion is try auditioning gear in your home in your room. A high quality separate phono stage, a better turntable, arm and cartridge would be at the top of my recommended list of things to audition if you want more detail, and better imaging if you’re really into audiophile vinyl pressings. Your Cambridge Audio and Denon units could also clearly be bettered while staying within your budget. Your system is only as good as its weakest link. Hard to say where to start. Perhaps others more familiar with your CA and Denon units can speak to their limitations and possible upgrades. 

@terry9 

+1 

Agreed 

Put your money where you believe you get the most out of it. I, personally follow your train of thought. I have been buying a majority of the "high dollar" vinyl and SACD releases for the last few years. Already owning around 8-9k titles from over the years, I've not much interest in most new bands or their offerings. 

I think the better use of funds would be to buy more of those double-45 RPM albums; I've got several myself, and the sound is amazing no matter what they're played on. Of course it may sound better with more expensive gear, but I could say the same thing to somebody with a $50K system. But those double-45's will remain as great as they are.

@sbsail9 some of these answers look on the right track - yay.

Much more bang-for-buck in improving your music source whether that’s vinyl or cd or drive-stored mp3 / WAV etc. (I don’t stream, so no comment there).

If you know real world live sound and the LS50’s get you close enough to that in your genres to be happy, kit swapping upstream of your speakers will probably be narrowly incremental at best (unless the good old friend of upgrade-itis and sighted comparisons in real time is your method for comparing amps, DAC’s etc. then each change may sound “night vs. day” for sale of bias etc.).

I prefer a live sound, and not one that requires lounging in a single position/seat (not much of a “live” experience doing that IMO); tested and adjusted my approach and compared it to hundreds (literally) of other HiFi setups in like-sized and smaller rooms over a number of years, took the opinions of dozens of other folks from all walks, and I’m pretty convinced that once you get the speaker x room sound to your liking and music files that’ve been mixed and mastered in a form that ticks your aural boxes, you’re set. Upstream kit-swapping at that point becomes a pursuit for shop-a-holics and OCD victims more than folks who aim to let tech be tech, and enjoy a musical experience.

Determine what “close enough” to real music means for you, and then rely on speaker x room and music source file (be that vinyl, cd, mp3 etc) to be the pair of variables that get you there in-home. $0.02 plopped on the table

I own that TT and it'll turn out some pretty sweet sound... but... the Ortofon Blue is the bottom rung cart.  I upgraded to the Red and the difference took about 2 measures to be obvious.  I recall it was about $90-120.  So really, with such low hanging fruit, IMHO, regardless of source etc, it's a must-do.  Enjoy your system!

This is not a simple question to answer in general terms, if possible at all. My instinct says to first improve the source, this includes and can be the first step to get the best quality records/discs possible. Yes, your cartridge needs upgrading, you could also consider better outboard phono stage, your turntable is alright.

Personally, I always look for the best pressing when buying records. They are sometimes difficult to find in excellent condition and often not inexpensive. It is also not always easy to find out which pressing is best without directly comparing. And, do you clean records well, the difference can be night and day ?

Dump the vinyl and stream instead, better selection and SQ, and way less physical effort.  Welcome to 2024…

@benanders 👍

I think it’s pretty well established that the quality of the recording is the single most important factor in sound reproduction. I second the notion that looking into streaming could bring you the biggest benefit since you have access to a wide world of good recordings. I am in the same age bracket as you and I have found that the most fun is trying different types of reproduction equipment. So in the future if you have the itch to spend money try a small tube amp. Consider open baffle speakers. Efficient Full range speakers These bring different virtues to the table. Not necessarily better. It sounds like you’ve got a solid system so go where your muse takes you and have fun.

Sorry, my answer only implied my response to the original question. Good source material is important, but I think that better gear might improve the “normal” source material such that the hi-res versions can be reserved for some special recordings.  I would suggest trying a separate preamp, but your integrated does not support it. Maybe a low cost experiment like upgrading the phono preamp with something like:

https://www.schiit.com/products/skoll

I also support the suggestions for digital, you can get a pretty good setup nowadays for not too much. 

+1 for cart upgrade, then phono stage. Made a huge difference in my vintage Mac system. I'm an old guy too, with very similar tastes. 

@terry9

I’m fairly old too. Apologies if offended.

@sbsail9

What I meant was that it might be advantagous to invest in HQ streaming rather than build up a collection of the most expensive vinyl to play on a modest rig. Especially, and respectfully, OP, as you stated that you were old. Without spending a lot more, you may achieve good results from digital. Your question about obtaining the best source material stands. Yes, the best recordings and pressings will always sound great and will always elevate whatever system thet are played on. However, consider this: the best remastered vinyl on a modest rig will probably not sound as good as originals and the second best vinyl (if you will) on better hardware.

@noromance That is a disgusting post.

If you’re old, why bother with buying new records and CDs?

Thank you all for your responses. I did try the Schiit Mani 2 and it was the worst. Their support was limited to "just use the factory settings". I test using the Ortofon test vinyl.Tracking  and separation seems fine with the CA. Tracked everything up to the 80 um and broke up on the 90 and just bounced on the 100. I think the spec on the Blue is 80. This would seem to indicate that the issue was in the Schiit not the 'table.

I have not given up on the improved phono stage. I am looking around. Perhaps a tube but since I would still run through the CA, not sure if it is worth the expense vs as SS.

AKGWIZ - I think you may have it inverted. The blue is the upgrade to the red which BTW did make a noticeable improvment. 

I spent some time at Excel Audio in Newport Beach and auditioned some gear. Some of the best available and it was very impressive. My issue is that my room is so small it seems to me that I would reach a point of dimminishing returns very quickly. 

I don't think that a new amp will give you the pleasure of buying collector quality source material. An audiophile record is a joyful thing and you get to repeat the experience with each new title you buy.

I have a digital desktop system with a Denon PMA 2000ivr and a pair of Polk bookshelf speakers. I also have a main system with large Thiel speakers and Krell amplification that includes a turntable. My little desktop system sounds amazingly good.

I've got a couple of suggestions that will leave you with plenty of money to buy nice records.

1) Your turntable is excelIent but think a cartridge upgrade along with a separate phono preamp would be the best bang for your buck. I can vouch for the Hana SL cartridge. I have this in my main system and it made a big difference for the better. It has received stellar reviews. Regarding a phono preamp, there are lots of choices and you don't have to spend a lot of money to get a good one (Music Direct has a bunch of them). The key feature to look for is the ability to adjust the impedance for MC cartridges. There are also lots of choices used. Your Denon is a good amp but the phono section is its weak spot.

2) I bought a Black Ice Foz SSX Soundstage Expander for my smaller system and I really like it. You can narrow or expand the soundstage and a separate control adds bass warmth. It made a significant positive difference and costs about $600.

@noromance   Ah, I understand. Thought the comment was out of character. Thank you for clarifying.

  I put paying big bucks for vinyl low on the list, these days.  That isn't the way the wind is blowing.  And even though 45's can sound better, spending even more time cleaning and turning  records over is not very appealing.  And then there's the problems with the mastering of many reissues, which can make the records hit-or-miss.

 The source quality is often the least of my concerns, since I like many historical recordings and bootlegs of live recordings, where the quality of the recording is poor.  

   Since you express happiness with your current speakers: a better integrated will make every single thing you listen to sound better.  Including all the records you already have.  

This has been a very informative series for me. I thank you all for your responses. I will look into a stand alone phono pre. Any suggestions? Tube vs SS? My CA AXR was about $600 so not expensive. Any phono stage would be played through the CA which is SS amp. Dunno if that makes any real difference.100/watts/side though I rarely have it past 75% of power, small room and, well, wife.

I spent some time at Excel Audio in Newport Beach and auditioned some gear. Some of the best available and it was very impressive.

Your TT/cart is where I started just 4 years ago. It is entry level and not worthy of some of the high quality vinyl you might be buying at Excel (I buy all my vinyl from Mike).

How to get a better system incrementally? You should trust Mike’s advice. Let him know how much you are willing to spend. I would start with TT/Cart/Phono stage.

My issue is that my room is so small it seems to me that I would reach a point of dimminishing returns very quickly.

Near field listening can be awesome - listen to the very small Harbeth’s - I think Mike has all but the 40’s in stock. I used to have Harbeth 30’s in a 60x20 ft space with a couple of small RELs and they were amazing for their size. Not trying to steer you to Harbeth, just that a small (12x12) room should not be limiting your expectations. Actually it may be an advantage.

OP,  you are correct that Blue is above red.  But glad we both enjoyed a nice boost at a bargain.  I'd think a still better cart and/or phono amp would also move the needle.  I use a Vincent PHO300 and think it's quite good albeit ill admit, with no real comparisons.  The reason I stopped there was my frustration with securing good vinyl.  Between modern pressings of older titles, the vagaries of the used vinyl market and the general cost/title and the numerous disappointments (SQ and material), I made the switch to streaming.  Bottom line to me was less $ per satisfactory title  since I can stream for $11/mo.  Enything.  Dabble in an artist.  Discover. No dust, cleaning, static etc.  Just my journey and not a recommendation.    Cost of way less than one vinyl per month earns back my initial outlay IMO.  Also, no mention of room acoustic work.   Being square and using a sub likely means some stout LF peaks to be be tamed.