I've been using a Classe CA-D200 for the last 7 years. Since then, I have been led to believe that the technology cannot compete with A or A/B designed amplifiers, but I figured I'd just use the Classe amp as a "stop gap" until I found something I could afford and enjoy in a beefier class A amp. Since then I've tried a Parasound A21+, a McIntosh MC275, and even a Mark Levinson NO534. I ran each for about two weeks each, and while I couldn't afford the Levinson piece without also hiring a divorce lawyer, I found I preferred the sound of the Classe amp every time overall. The Mc amp was great for loud rock and roll, crunchy guitars and gut wrenching bass, but it seemed pretty grainy for classical, or any piano. The Parasound was great for bass and had very nice extended treble, but the midrange sounded "boxy" and a little muddy. The Levinson was the biggest surprise - it just sounded flat and uninvolving regardless of volume level. There wasn't much written about the CA-D200 when it hit the market, possibly because Classe was undergoing a change of the guard (Manufacturer head Dave Nauber, a wonderful guy and high end audio advocate, moved to T+A). I have a decidedly mid-fi system overall but I have really enjoyed and will likely just keep using the Classe until something "goes wrong".
And before anyone chastises me for it, I will post my system today. :)
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3 1/2 yrs later, I could not resist. Of course there are Class D amps out there that are "just as good" as Class A amps....just like there are Hyundai autos out there that are "just as good" as a Ferrari.
@jymc Ferrari was founded in 1939. If you're comparing nearly any Hyundai against an older Ferrari, you might be disappointed that the Hyundai not only was faster but also requires far less maintenance.
Now let's put this in perspective as pertains to audio. Class A was the first and only class of operation created over 100 years ago. Class D was proposed in the 1950s and the first commercial home audio class D amps were sold in the 1960s. Now I'm sure you understand that in the 1960s germanium transistors were pretty much the only game in town and had really seriously terrible performance. But better transistors came along and class A solid state became possible. Meanwhile, better transistors came along and class D got a lot better. Meanwhile, cars made in the 1960s were lucky to get 100,000 miles on them before falling completely apart; Do you get my point?
Class D has evolved not only due to breakthroughs in how to do it, but also vast improvements in the semiconductors with which to do it.
So the bottom line these days is if the class D amp is built to high quality standards it can easily rival or surpass class A. Class A is used to minimize distortion in the output section due to non-linearities in the output devices, class D relies on switching so output section linearity isn't a thing. Try a good class D amp sometime and you may not want to go back.
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I have limited experience with Class D, but the new GanFet-based class D amps seem a step up in sound quality, offering tubelike tonality and greater harmonic depth.
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Bel Canto Black EX amplifier. I have and have owned a number of excellent A/B amps, some of which operate in class A for 10 to 25 watts. Love the Bel Canto. Notice that none of them ever appear used for sale on this site.
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Actually the Hyundai stomps the old Ferarri with better fuel economy, comfort and performance.
Hyundai Elantra N
60 mph: 4.8 sec
1/4-Mile: 13.4 sec @ 106 mph
Top Speed (C/D est): 155 mph
Braking, 70–0 mph: 161 ft
Roadholding, 300-ft Skidpad: 0.96 g
fuel economy: 37 mpg
Ferrari 348ts Spyder
60 mph: 6.0 sec
1/4 mile: 14.5 sec @ 99 mph
Top speed: 166 mph
Braking, 70–0 mph: 187 ft
Roadholding, 300-ft-dia skidpad: 0.90 g
C/D observed fuel economy: 17 mpg
The Axxess Forte 1 has gotten rave reviews but I haven't heard one. Anybody have one and would like to share?
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3 1/2 yrs later, I could not resist. Of course there are Class D amps out there that are "just as good" as Class A amps....just like there are Hyundai autos out there that are "just as good" as a Ferrari.
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In the passed i had conrad johnson,krell and at least cello duet and the encore pre.
Now i have the gato 400s class D with the magnepan 1.7i i can say it is a very good amp. For me at the moment fir his price the number 1.
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Picked up a Cyrus One class D integrated for just a tick under $1000.00 and loaded it into my main system for burn in.
This thing is wonderful! It will end up in system in our hunting camp (spend more time playing lumber jack, and dirt bike dude) with a pair of Triangle Borea BR03.
French Speakers with a nice little British Integrate (built in the UK) and Bel Canto e.Stream.
Looking forward to going to the U.P. Of Michigan and swimming in Gitche Gumee (Lake Superior) and chopping wood.
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I know I enjoy Class D in a Bel Canto e.One REF501S during the day.
In the evening my Qualiton X200 A/B Tube Amp gets the duty for critical listening. While I enjoy a cup of tea.
Class D has come a long way. I still prefer Tubes.
I Robot.
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Overall Class D is as good or better than anything else these days. Ignore the naysayers. They are biased. Whether it works best for you or not is still always up in the air case by case. It always depends. But Class D is in general a safe bet to affordably drive most any speaker well these days.
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"For the perfectionist audiophile, they will not be in the class A quality, but 99% of the people will not quite notice the difference."
I've heard class D amps that sound as good as some of the best tube amps made. This quote is out of date IMO.
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"For the perfectionist audiophile, they will not be in the class A quality, but 99% of the people will not quite notice the difference." This is not correct. Spec, mentioned above, and Mola Molas will give you outstanding quality.
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Class d amps sound good when you have a class a preamp.
Love my ps audio stellar stack. |
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I'm really surprised that no-one has brought up SPEC audio amps (from Japan) in this thread. They appear to be very carefully and thoughtfully designed and manufactured. |
As I stated, I knew it wouldn't be worth my effort.
But I do love you all anyway,
Tim
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twoleftears
Now that IS funny
Let's just hope it isn't true
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Only in the case of the Voyager, the field it's playing on is shaped like a dodecagon. |
Wow,
Infinite love and joy and happiness forever...is available to each of us whenever we choose it...........and this is what you think is important?
I love you.........I think you are amazing.......no matter how you write, think, feel or act. |
tweak1:"
I believe Underwood HiFi is rounding the bend and heading for home with their 200wpc Voyager, which I think will be < $4000"
Hello tweak1,
Just for the record and clarity, it's 'rounding 3rd and heading/headed for home' in baseball parlance and 'she'll be coming around the bend when she comes' in the song. Mixing these together is lame, but ultimately, probably not really worth my effort of posting and clarifying.
You're welcome,
Tim
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Just looked at the Starkrimson GaN mono. Looks very good and great specs. GaN can switch faster. I am surprised that there are no Silicon Carbide based power amps. I am power hungry though and 100W is too low for my setup.
Soon there will be a stereo amp with 250W/500W into 8ohm/4ohm. |
Apparently PS Audio's M1200s are really good. New review in TAS, is very positive @ $5999/pair, so... if you need big power on a 'budget', these could well be your amps. If not, I believe Underwood HiFi is rounding the bend and heading for home with their 200wpc Voyager, which I think will be < $4000
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Looks this one up... “Lighten up, Francis”. My comment was as much a vague reference to current events as much as anything else. Obviously you like whatever it is you’re listening too and it will be interesting to see what it is. As for the .009%, as for me, I’d chalk that up to humidity and / or strength of the pour. |
Jim2 obviously read my intent of my posts wrong. I am always at 99.99% performance. It's the last .009%, the thousandths, that are tough to improve upon! ;)
I don't do "wee hours" deals; industry members either call me within my time frame, or they don't reach me. I'm one of those unusual people who turn off the cell phone; I will not be a slave to technology. I have as first principle to avoid as much as possible the politics of the industry.
BTW, two manufacturers over the years attempted "shenanigans"; they were to check for technical errors, and they thought they could rewrite the article as PR piece. I rejected it, the reviews were published as written, and I vowed personally to never review their products again, a promise to self I have kept.
Had to look up "Ray Donovan"; I do not watch much TV, and a cursory look tells me I could care less about such. I build and enjoy audio systems, often with a good book! Not much more relaxing to me to have a good read while hearing beautiful music! :)
Cloak and dagger type things happening in the industry? Maybe with others; good for them! Let their life be "exciting"! I just do my thing. :) |
It’s true... you can’t teach an old @dutchydog new tricks.
That was funny! |
@nitrobobI have 3 IV2’s. Each driving a set of Infinity Beta Bass towers. Haven’t listened to them full range yet, but as replacements for Bryston 7B’s have simplified my system and at least matched performance in my current set up. Very happy with Legacy Audio overall. |
Well, Schroeder's already said he's at 99%. Hopefully there aren't any shenanigans in the wee hours of the morning just before the article drops. Then there's the issue of whether someone gets to him. You never know... Nelson Pass could put a call into Ray Donovan. |
I can't help respecting and admiring douglas_schroeder's intelligent approach of reserving final judgement on class D and atmapshere's intelligence, experience, knowledge and strange preoccupation with the upper knees of Sigmoid curves.
Whatever floats your boat, right?
Tim
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@douglas_schroeder Yes, all technologies follow a price/performance curve. Class D was first proposed in the 1950s but really didn't get going until the late 1990s. These early amps were at the bottom of the curve. The curve itself usually follows the same shape: sort of like a stylized 'S' (called a 'Sigmoid') where the cost (horizontal axis) goes up quickly while the performance does not. But after a while it starts to get figured out, then the performance goes up rapidly while the cost is minimal. Then as the technology matures the curve reverts to its original slope; incremental improvement for lots of money to develop it.
If I had to guess, it appears that we are nearing the top knee of the Sigmoid curve. 10 years ago we weren't there.
5 years ago we realized we needed to be taking class D seriously. We're known for making very transparent tube amplifiers- not the usual sort to be messing with class D. But in November a year ago we were awarded a patent in the field. A smaller player like us usually has troubles doing that in a field of mature technology. That is why I say the technology is nearing or just past the upper knee of the Sigmoid curve.
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I am VERY happy I did not finalize my position on class D and hold it inviolable over the past 15 years. I saw no reason to form an absolute resistance, as though it could not be developed over time. Participating in the process of assessment as it has developed has been fun, and now is nothing short of thrilling.
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It’s true... you can’t teach an old @dutchydog new tricks. |
I wouldn't own class D if you gave it to me |
My active set-up (via separate, outward components) until a few days ago comprised three different amp topologies: Class A for the MF/HF horn section (Belles SA-30), Class A/B for the bass/mids section (Crown Macro-Tech 1200) and Class D/PWM-based for the subs (Crown K2). The Macro-Tech was a temporary solution to begin with being that its built-in fan sports a considerable noise level - one that I was able to suppress to some degree (though not enough), not to mention the very audible hum from its transformer. The Belles obviously as well as the Crown K2 are passively cooled. The Macro-Tech’s aren’t youngsters dating back to the 90’s, but they’re build like tanks and the 1200 model in particular (and also the 3600, to my ears) actually sound very good full-range, not least bridged. The 1200 I had was very well kept, but some of them are pretty banged up from tough pro touring duties, quite naturally. On topic: I’ve now replaced the Macro-Tech 1200 with a Lab.Gruppen FP6400 power amplifier with its variant Class ’TD’ topology for the bass/mids of my main speakers. https://images.thomann.de/pics/prod/169835_folder.pdfI’ll leave the distinction of this particular Class TD iteration to the more technically proficient, but it involves leaving out the high frequency switching output filter usually required with the Class D topology. Even though the FP6400 in my system is only used in the ~85-800Hz region, actively, it offers improved clarity, insight and smoothness here compared to the Macro-Tech. Several I know use the Lab.Gruppen Class TD amps full-range, and regard them in the same class as MC² Audio’s S-series amps (Class A/B) that I know quite well - which is to say, to my ears they can hold their own against much more expensive, audiophile high-end offerings. The only minor downside of the Lab.Gruppen amp is that it houses a build-in fan, but its noise level and characteristics is very benign and close to unnoticeable - nothing I consider a problem. Some may balk at the suggestion of pro amps for home usage like Lab.Gruppen’s Class TD, but I prefer keeping an open mind and use what sounds great whatever its intended segment application. What's more: with pro amps one needn't pay more than strictly necessary, hereby saving a lot of money compared to expensively upholstered high-end amps. |
I wish it was a simple as determining a single test parameter like SINAD to determine what's going to sound good and what's going to sound mediocre. But then this hobby would be rather boring.
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on 11/22/20 @bluorion posted the following:
Just an observation and a question. Are there 'high end' Class D amps out there that are just as good as Class A, A/B amps? I realize that's a sensitive question to some and I mean no disrespect---but whenever I see others' hifi systems on social media, all of the amps are A or A/B. There's always Pass, McIntosh, Moon, Luxman, Accuphase, etc. Where are the Class Ds? For folks out there that want more power for less efficient speakers and can't afford the uber expensive Class As, A/Bs, what is there to choose from that's close to those brands? Thanks bluorion
I don't know if anyone has noticed, but he must have given up reading over the past 7+ weeks of chat by all the "experts" on this forum; and I don't blame him. @Bluorion, I am not an expert, but I lived with Bel Canto ref1000 monoblocks for about 10 years as I have previously stated (about 6 weeks ago). My advice, try some Class D out see if you like it. Real simple solution.
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cakyol:"
Most hi end class D amps pretty much use the Danish company ICEpower class D amplifiers. Bang & Olufsen also used to use them. I dont know if they still do, but they are all ok. They are extremely efficient & space saving." Hello cakyol, I don't know where you received your information leading to your posted comments quoted above, but most of your comments are dated and, currently, demonstrably false. Did you just wake up from a decade long sleep? The B&O ICE class D power modules were popular about a decade ago but were never considered hi-end, relative to other more traditional amp types, because of their poor upper frequency performance. Ice modules represent an evolutionary progression stage when class D amps Actually Were only good enough for sub amps. I don't recall any ICE module based class D amp ever generally being considered hi-end. You are correct, however, that B&O is and was a Danish company. When Bruno Putzeys worked at Philips Applied Technologies Lab in Belgium prior to 2005, he invented the UcD (universal class D) class D circuit. As I understand it, these were the first class D power modules generally considered to have very good midrange and treble performance and are the first to be generally considered to provide hi-end performance. Bruno Putzeys has stated his design accomplished this high quality full frequency performance through the use of very high levels of negative feedback. Bruno Putzeys left Philips in 2005 to form a new class D company, named Hypex, along with another partner. While there, he invented the Hypex NCore series of class D power modules that utilized even further increases in negative feedback to even further elevate the performance level of these power modules and the class D amps incorporating them. Bruno Putzeys latest venture was to form a new class D company, Purifi, with cofounder Lars Risbo. This company has just begun introducing their initial class D power modules which are expected to further incrementally raise the performance bar of this very rapidly improving technology. Here are links to a good article about Purifi and to to Purifi's official website: https://audiophilestyle.com/ca/bits-and-bytes/purifi-audio-and-the-audiophile-style-readers-qa-with-... https://purifi-audio.com/about/ For a more accurate and truthful summary of hi-end class D in general, I think it's important to realize that there are no monopolies in hi-end class D technology. Concurrently with the development of high quality class D power modules from Philips' UcD, Hypex's NCore and Purifi's new modules, other companies have also been developing and improving their own class D technology and offerings. These companies include Pascal, Anaview/Abletec as well as Merrill Audio and, expected in the near future, even an offering from reputed tube company Atmasphere. The current state of hi-end class D amplification is very good and its future looks even brighter. Tim |
I haven't offered much of anything to this thread but at least I've taken time to read it. |
Most hi end class D amps pretty much use the Danish company ICEpower class D amplifiers. Bang & Olufsen also used to use them. I dont know if they still do, but they are all ok. They are extremely efficient & space saving.
For the perfectionist audiophile, they will not be in the class A quality, but 99% of the people will not quite notice the difference.
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Am I the only one on here that has Legacy's new IV* Amps?. Kind of surprised their not mentioned. I have a IV*5 for my center and surrounds/rears, with a IV*2 mono block for my mains, which are Focus SE's. It's all Legacy, Phantoms for sides and Deco's for rears. 600 watts each for the V5 with 1000 each on the mains. I came from a ATI 6005 Signature series @ 350 each. I'm certainly not disappointed. |
@noble100 , I do not have any photos of equipment listed here under myself, so you must have mistakenly, someone else in mind. I have a chip amp ( gainclone ) on it’s way to me, and I am still interested in trying Class D. I do not pay attention to the tonalities of amplifiers, as much as I do, to the recorded details, specifically the rhythmic abilities, showcasing " the playing " of my chosen performers. I want to hear the musicianship, as this, is most important to me. Tubes, although wonderful in so many ways ( and yes, through my Lascalas ), has always failed me in the lower bass and bass region, in getting those 15’s in the doghouses ( the woofer enclosures, bass horns, to the uneducated Klipsch folks ), moving in the way, good ss has done, for me. It is a bit of a trade off. And you know what, the recordings we listen to, are al tradeoffs. I am in anticipation of receiving the 2 latest cds from the recording master himself, Tony Minasian ( Tonian Labs ). His " Drums and Bells ", is a need to have, in determining, what any system / component, is capable of, and, what they are not capable of. @jim2 , that certainly is not me, although, Kramer is a fabulous character, from one of my all time favorite shows. Always, and Enjoy ! |
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mrdecibel:"
So, in a nutshell....I want to try a Class D amp. I am looking for 1, that can do all of the best things, tubes and solid state, do wonderfully ( I would say we all want this ). Black background, dynamic, fast and well tempo'd, neutral in tone, no added warmth or color, a beefy power supply ( 50 years later and I still believe in this ), a well damped, non resonant chassis ( this too, is necessary ), well, something that can make my Lascalas ( modified and tweaked, of course ) sing more than how they sing, now.. I have been strictly using solid state for the last 20 years ( no tubes for me, unless a reasonably priced unit gives me all of the above )."
Hello mrdecibel,
My opinion is that there are probably numerous new solid state class D amps currently available, as well as likely some on the used market, that would meet all of your criteria:"
Black background, dynamic, fast and well tempo'd, neutral in tone, no added warmth or color, a beefy power supply ( 50 years later and I still believe in this ), a well damped, non resonant chassis ( this too, is necessary ), well, something that can make my Lascalas ( modified and tweaked, of course ) sing more than how they sing, now.."
Unfortunately, I've not been as active in auditioning good quality class D amps over the past 6 years or so, ever since auditioning and being completely satisfied with a pair of D-Sonic M3-600-M monoblock amps that I auditioned for about a month on a free in-home trial basis and then purchased for about $2,100 at that time. These are still my main system amps, have been powered on 24/7 virtually since I first installed them and I remain very pleased with their performance, sound quality and reliability.
I looked at your system pics, however, and I'm a bit confused. You seem to have numerous systems shown in the pics with high quality electronics along with similarly high quality speakers that I know would place varying demands and requirements on any amp or amps driving them, specifically in terms of wattage, current and impedance demands.
In other words, I'm not sure whether your profile system pics represent all of your system iterations over the last few decades or if the pics represent the entirety of all the very high quality audio gear that you currently still own and want to utilize.
If it's the latter, then I'm amazed, astounded, impressed and give you a very big tip of my plumed pimp hat, that I'm currently wearing in my underpants along with my brand new leather boots, to you out of total awe, envy and respect. I'd also advise you that I have virtually no doubt that a used pair of the D-Sonic M3-600-M monoblocks, or a new pair of their current model M3(a)-600-M amps, would perform very well driving all of the pictured speakers, even the notoriously difficult large Apogees, and would be a very good choices to audition.
My only caveat is that these amps probably have an excess of power, with 600/1,200 watts at 8/4 ohms, and current, about 28 amps, for your needs. Although I haven't tried any of them yet, I also suspect that any of the newer class D amps, based on the Purifi power modules, would also likely perform very well.
I'm assuming it's the former, however, due to statements you made from your last post, that your currently looking for an amp or amps to power your pair of extremely high,105 db, efficiency Klipsch LaScala main speakers. Given the well known ultra high efficiency as well as the very high performance quality level of your LaScalas, I literally feel an obligation to advise you to at least consider and audition a good quality tube amp with the LaScalas. The LaScalas are ideal speakers for being driven by low powered tube amps and are even well known as being sufficiently efficient to be driven by headphone amps.
I'm sensing dichotomies, conflicts and a lack of clarity in your thought process about your overall system sound qualities and preferences. On the one hand, your chosen main speakers are very high quality, highly efficient horn type speakers that are normally paired with lower powered tube amps for a resultant overall system sound character that is warm, colored to some degree, euphonic, smooth, 3-dimensional and palpable.
On the other hand, your stated preferred characteristics in an amp are "
Black background, dynamic, fast and well tempo'd, neutral in tone, no added warmth or color, a beefy power supply ( 50 years later and I still believe in this ), a well damped, non resonant chassis ( this too, is necessary ), well, something that can make my Lascalas ( modified and tweaked, of course ) sing more than how they sing, now.." These qualities are a good description of what to expect from a good quality class D amp.
I'm questioning whether you're mainly interested in just trying something new, such as a class D amp, in your system or if you're certain that you prefer the typical qualities provided by a good quality class D amp: very low noise and distortion, a dead silent background, powerful, dynamic, smooth, fast, accurate and detailed that has a neutral overall presentation with no added warmth or color.
If you're looking for these qualities, along with beefy linear toroidal transformer power supplies, I can state with certainty that either a used or new pair of D-Sonic monoblocks will provide them and I think it's highly likely that the new Purifi power module based amps are likely to as well.
Tim
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Indtast din tekst ...Have played on Lyngdorf SDA-2400 with Densen preamplifier, Gato DPA-4004 Power Amplifier with DIA-400S Integrated Amplifier, which is sold again, and the setup that I just replaced was 4 Densen
B-350 monoblocks with B-275 preamplifier.
Was not dissatisfied but wanted and few more devices and stands, in my search for an all in one box I have listened to Lyngdorf TDAI-3400 and Nad M33 and have now been the owner of M33 since September and have not regretted my choice, plays very leaked and does not miss class A / B.
If class D can be said to be High end, I will not judge ...,
Sincerely |
@mrdecibel We managed to get our hands on an early class D amp 20 years ago. It was hard to imagine what the fuss was about- it was awful! But a lot has changed in the last 20 years and amps have gotten a lot better. But there is still room for change- you can imagine how this is so when a tiny player like ourselves can step in and get a patent! We started work on our class D amp about 4 years ago and within about 6 months it was showing promise. But we didn't start that willy-nilly; by that time there were amps out there that really convinced me that class D was the rising star of amplifier technology, and if you didn't acknowledge that fact you were going to get left behind.
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@atmasphere, I have not heard a recent Class D amp in my home, as of this time. What I have heard was not to my liking. I have tried a few " T " amps ( chip amps, for those who might not know ), and although was surprised, not to my liking. I would love for some manufacturer to send me one as an evaluation piece, and let me live with it for a month or two ( I do hear and respond to component break in ). I considered the XTZ Edge A2-300 at $500., but after hearing a comparison on a YT video ( Thomas and Stereo ), to a $4K Classe D200 Class D ( yes, a YT video ), I would not be happy with the XTZ. I am very patient, and I do feel any number of Class D amplifiers would bring me closer to what I am trying to achieve. Just do not want to spend much, at this time, to find out ( been there, done that ). I ALWAYS appreciate your feedback. My best, and be well ! |
NAD uses Purifi in the M33 and the C298. ATM also uses the purifi in a couple of builds. |
Atmosphere, you are bulls eye, on the money. Thank you for your contributions here!
I can just imagine people trying to figure out your comment,What a class D amp potentially brings to the table is the ability to be neutral in a way that most solid state amps of traditional design cannot: they can be designed to lack brightness and harshness." Absolutely! I have used the amp on review on the hybrid PAP Treo15 Horn 1 and it is gloriously precisely as you describe.
Our skeptics will doubt it. Their loss.
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GaN is already here with Orchard, AGD and others, while the much-delayed and much-anticipated LSA Voyager is reportedly coming soon (perhaps). And mid Feb so they say, the integrated with everything, the SU-R1000 from Technics promises to be the pinnacle of affordable Class-D design using GaN technology, and "hopefully using the same as their flagship SE-R1 1.5mHz switching speed" which should take it to where Class-D promises to be, but hasn’t as yet.. https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/technics-su-r1000-a-new-class-d-gan-technology-integratedCheers George |
