Home Theater Receiver recommendations for B&W 803S?

I finally had some time to upgrade the fuse today, and to spend some time listening before/after.

I must admit, I was highly skeptical that a fuse could noticeably change things. But...I do think it’s an improvement! I’m not sure how much is placebo effect, but if I think it sounds better, than it sounds better, right? ;)

At first, I found that the presence and forwardness was improved, but at the cost of clarity - it felt a bit muddy, with less instrument separation and musicality.

I then ran the Audyssey setup again, and the clarity is back!

Now music feels a bit more forward - I don’t have as strong an urge to lean forward in my seat. It’s still not as present and "punchy" as I’d like - but I think it’s likely the room acoustics and layout more than anything else at this point.

I also upgraded my subwoofer recently -- went from a puny Energy 8" to the Monoprice Monolith 10" (nabbed a Cyber Monday discount - woot!)...and have enabled it for 2-channel mode. I think that’s also improved the punch a little bit, filling out the low end just a tad.

Next up: I’ve got some panels on order from GIK - going to add a few bass traps and some of their 242 absorption panels around the room. I’m optimistic that’s really going to help with the imaging and presence. The biggest challenges in the room are that the listening position is right up against the back wall - and my left speaker is about 6" from the left wall, which has a big sliding glass door between the speaker and the back wall... So the first reflection points on the left wall are pretty bad, and I can’t hang a panel in front of them. But I’ll do what I can around the rest of the room.

In the meantime, I’m already listening to CDs that have so much more detail than I have ever heard before... I just played Rhythm of the Saints and I swear there are four or five more musicians playing on each track than I ever noticed before. ;)

So - I’d say the fuse is definitely a worthy upgrade! Thanks for pushing me to do it, @auxinput!

@awilder Did you upgrade the fuse?  Just curious if it made a difference.

I had heard the fuses were directional, and was wondering about that, since the circuit board isn't marked. Good tip - thanks!

Ok, a tip on the fuse install.  Since you have a multimeter, you can test the fuse clip points.  Remove the fuse.  In most cases, one of the fuse clips will connect directly to one of the blades on the IEC inlet (usually the hot A/C conductor).  The other fuse clip will connect into the transformer.  When installing the fuse, you want the arrow on the fuse to point AWAY from the fuse clip that connects directly to the IEC plug.  If both fuse clips appear to connect to IEC blades, then you need to figure out which of the points connects to the HOT A/C blade.  You can google IEC to figure this out.

@auxinput - I do.

And haven't received the fuse just yet...will report back once I have a chance to drop it in. I've also been talking with James at GIK Acoustics... working on a plan to add some absorption panels and bass traps. I'm optimistic that's going to make a big different in the spatial issues.  Onward!

awilder - do you have a digital multimeter or a continuity tester?

I like Audioquest cables because they are one of the only cables that is truly solid-core.  Kimber interconnect cables are not bad either.   Wire World is also an excellent cable (not quite solid core, but close because the individual conductor wires are arranged in a row instead of a bundle).
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For Y connectors, Audio Sensiblity is the best one I have seen.  But they are all pretty poor quality.  Your best bet is to get sombody to take a set of Audioquest or Kimber XLR interconnects and desolder the ends.  then combine two cables and solder both cables into one XLR connector.

What XLR cables do you guys like with the Classé Delta amp and the Sigma  processor without breaking the bank?  I am bi amping with 2 separate amps so I would need 4 cables and 2 Y connectors for my mains.  My dealer likes Audioquest water but the price adds up quick.

Generally, you want as much current to the amp as possible.  While not all power conditioners will restrict current, some do.  The large transformer and power supply in the amp is usually very good at isolating noise from the A/C.  While preamp/source components are more sensitive to noise and characteristics from the A/C.

Why directly into the wall?

Oh crud, I meant to say "Audio Advisor".  Sorry, Pangea is only available from Audio Advisor.  I think they are their dedicated reseller.  If you are looking at the AC9 model, there are two:
---AC 9 MKII - $174 for 2 meter.
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AC 9SE MKII - $249 for 2 meter.  It's more expensive, but uses more "Cardas" conductors and better copper.
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And your Rotel amplifier should be plugged directly into a wall outlet (not through any power strip or power conditioner).

I have a marantz 8802A using a kimber pk10 ascent with great results 

Ah! Already ordered...Thanks for the shipping tip; I went with the cheaper shipping since I probably won't have time during the week to test out the fuse anyway. And next weekend will be all about replacing/building the new racks, which arrive on Friday. And, painting the room; looking forward to darker walls to help the projections...

Onward! :)

Thanks for the detailed thoughts on all the fuses and power cables.

I just ordered the Silverstar.  :)

I couldn't find any Pangea connectors on Parts Connexion... Are you thinking the AC 9 MK II ?  
http://www.pangeaaudio.com/products.html
https://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo.asp?number=PGAC92&opt=3665

Oh, and @maritime51 - Thanks for the Nuprime transport recommendation. Not sure if I want just a standalone CD player.. will look into that one and do some more thinking on it. :)

Oh, if you order from Parts Connexion, they have a shipping option called "UPS Express".  This is an overnight shipping and only costs around $15 or so for something small.  However, somebody needs to be home to accept delivery because UPS requires a signature for this method.  Otherwise, they ship normal UPS or US Mai (which is going to be 5-7 days).

Regarding the Connex power cord.  They are going to be low cost tinned or OFC copper, and they are going to be stranded bundles of wires for each conductor.  The plugs are going to be low cost brass plugs.  Gold plated will give a slightly warmer sound with softer highs.  You could try them if you wanted to, but there are better options.
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If you wanted a decent power cord in this price range, I would look at the Pangea power cords from Parts Connexion.  They are mostly solid-core or litz wires with good gold-palted copper plugs.  You can get a 9 awg cord for the amp if you want.  I think this will be about the best you can do, but expect to pay up to $199 or so.  I consider this a "final buy" power cord because the make-up of the litz polymer coated wires makes it extremely difficult to chop and re-terminate with a better IEC or male plug.  But if you wanted the best power cord in this range, this is what I would recommend.
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You can try either above power cords for your amp (Pangea would be better).  For the Marantz, I would give this a try:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/AudioQuest-NRG-5-AC-Power-Cord-Cable-2m-6FT/142991388935?hash=item214af37107:g:xg0AAOSw0QBb1LQg:rk:36:pf:0 

The NRG-5 is all solid-core OCC type copper with very low restrictive insulation.  It's really a 14awg power cord, but the best quality.  It does have gold-plated copper plugs, so if it's not detailed enough in the sound, you can always chop the ends and cut/strip the wires for a new Furutech silver-plated or rhodium-plated IEC plug.

Yeah, starting to read comments on fuses will reveal that there are a lot of "naysayers" that cannot help stating that fuses do not make any difference and will not stop until they have the last word.  They are much like religious extremests and it's hard to have a adult conversation with them.  Add in that they refuse to even try a fuse because they are so against them and are constantly arguing for someone to "prove it makes a difference". lol.  The people who have actually tried a fuse will 90% of the time say that it does make a difference in sound and mostly for the better. 

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That being said, for me, fuse is a tool to help tune the sound.  There really isn't a "best fuse" and I will comment on what I have tested:
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Hi-Fi Tuning Silverstar.  This is 100% silver and, since silver is the best conductor, it is the fastest at transferring current.  The result is a very fast and high resolution sound.  Sometimes this "fast sound" can be too bright/harsh in some systems, but since we are working with the "warm" Marantz, we need that speed.  I actually have a couple Silverstar fuses in a receiver that needs all the help it can get.

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Hi-Fi Tuning Supreme.  These are 99% silver and 1% gold.  It is still a very excellent fuse, but just a very tiny bit warmer than the Silverstar.  If Silverstar is the fastest at 100% speed, the Supreme would probably be around 95% as fast/bright.

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Furutech - these are made from pure copper and the end-caps are rhodium plated, with anti-resonance filler inside the fuse.  They are very excellent, but take forever to burn in (400-450+ hours).  They are probably about 85% the speed of the Silverstar.  They can be slower sounding than stock fuses, but they are much smoother and have better resolution.
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Isoclean or the Hi-Fi Tuning "Cu" fuse.  These are pure copper with gold-plated endcaps.  These are much warmer sounding and will soften the highs much more then the other fuses.  They are a good tool if you have equipment that is too bright/harsh sounding.
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There are many people who love the BLUE fuse, but I have not tested it.  It's very expensive at $150 and since I can get most things done with Furutech or Hi-Fi Tuning, I haven't made the jump to try the BLUE.

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I put the Silverstar out there as a very cheap recommendation.   And yes, that 2A Slo-Blo or "Extra Slow Blow" is what I would recommend. If they don't have it in stock, you could go for a 2.5A or 1.8A.   I have used this fuse and it's very good.  If you wanted to spend more and get a "Supreme" fuse, that's fine as well.  The Silverstar is faster.  If I had to judge, the Supreme might be just a little more refined sounding.  There could be situations where the Silverstar is just a bit too fast/bright, but there could also be situations where you really need that fastest sounding fuse.

Just came across this power cord on Parts Connexion... wondering if it might be a good choice for either the Rotel or the Marantz, especially since it's 10awg. Tried to find info on "Connex" cables but didn't turn up much.

https://www.partsconnexion.com/CONNEX-76701.html

And your points about coax vs. hdmi are duly noted.

And yep, need to some work on acoustic panels. Thanks for pointing me to GIK.

Ok, you've successfully twisted my arm about the fuse upgrade! I just opened up the Marantz and pulled the fuse, so I could figure out which to buy.

Looks like it's the 5x20 size.  The circuit board and the etching on the fuse are T2AL/250V... From a bit of Googling, it looks like this means:

T = slow blow
2A = 2 amps
L = glass
250v = rated voltage

My best guess is that I should get this one:
https://www.partsconnexion.com/FUSE-80979.html

Though that one appears to be an extra slow blow. Will that matter? 

I also just read a few reviews and commentary on fuses, and of course started going down the rabbit hole of various other options (and reading lots of arguments about whether fuses are "snake oil" or not...). Anyway, if i'm going to swap out the fuse, I'm willing to spend a few more bucks if it'll be an even more notable improvement.

The fuse isn't particularly easy to get to in the Marantz...have to pull off two covers, and then remove another circuit board. Doable, but it's not something I want to be doing often. So if I can get a better fuse now for a few bucks more...

I saw the Supreme 3 available around some shops for $60 to $75... and then there's the Synergistic Blue for $150...  will spending more on those likely yield any better results?

Couple of things I’m going to re-iterate. That digital COAX cable is good for everything except a few scenarios:

- Bluray with Dolby TrueHD
- Bluray with DTS-MA HD
- Some streaming that uses Dolby Digital Plus. I have seen sometimes if you try using digital COAX for Dolby Digital Plus where the sound may have "skipping" problems every few seconds when the processor tries to synch or it may only give you the 2-channel left/right channels. In this case, you must use Dolby Digital Plus over HDMI.
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Feel free to upgrade your bluray player if you want. It might improve the sound a little, but I don’t think it will give you that visceral and spatial imaging you are craving. And the digital COAX will, ultimately, only improve the sound on 2-channel PCM audio and old DVD movies.

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" lack of clear imaging " - heh, I keep recommending this fuse upgrade because it is such a cheap investment, it’s almost a no-brainer. While the Marantz is very excellent at giving a full and true sounding waveform, it is rolling off the upper mids and highs. The fuse would put the audio back into focus and would really improve clarity and spatial imaging. A power cord upgrade can also help here, but it becomes hugely more expensive and it can be difficult to match the proper power cord. Making the highs more clean/clear could help reduce that "fatiguingly bright" effect because a warm sound will actually smear the highs and make them more harsh. Or, it could be that you are just now hearing the problems with those aluminum tweeters on a full range system. Or it could be you are hearing problems with harshness caused by the low cost interconnects, or even low cost stranded speaker wire. lol. Stock power cords can also create a bright/harsh fatiguing sound on a very high resolution system. Welcome to the wonderful world of tweaking audiophile systems.

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For acoustics, if you definitely have a bass resonation in that corner behind the speaker, then putting a GIK Acoustics "Soffit" or "Tri-trap" in that corner will help. You can even stack two to make an 8 foot high bass trap.
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For that particular speaker, I would also put a normal acoustic panel right on the wall just in front of the speaker. This would be a normal 2-3" panel, like the GIK Spot Panel. Since the speaker is only a few inches away from the wall, it actually uses the wall to act like a "horn" that boosts certain frequencies with that first reflection point. Not a good thing, lol. Or I can advise you on how to make your own panel (it’s just some Owens 703 fiberglass that is covered with fabric such as Guilford of Main or something).

Nuprime cdt 8 transport. 

Ok,Ok... NOBODY PANIC! CRISIS AVERTED! :)

@caphill I appreciate your enthusiasm! I do have to keep it under control a bit, and definitely want to maximize value. ;) I'm kicking myself for not buying an Oppo before they closed up shop; the aftermarket prices have gone through the roof! 

So...I factory reset the Marantz, and then did the fully Audyssey setup.  I then listened to a few CDs, and a couple of minutes of the last West World episode.

The good news: The boominess is resolved when Audyssey is enabled. I think it is likely due to my speaker placement; my left channel is just a few inches away from a side wall, and about 2.5' feet in front of the back wall/corner...and that corner of the room happens to really resonate bass (I discovered this when doing my "bass crawl" testing).  The reason I have the speaker so close to the wall is that the B&W's clearly like being spaced far apart...and I've maxxed out how wide I can go in my room.  Thankfully, the Audyssey compensated for it, and the lower mid-ranges now sound much more balanced.

So with this speaker placement, it seems Audyssey is a must. (Not sure why this wasn't an issue when listening with the Denon in stereo direct mode, as the speakers were in the same spots...but whatever.)

I compared Audyssey "Reference" and "Flat" modes quite a bit.. The "Flat" mode (which doesn't roll off the highs) had a bit more crispness at the top end. It was especially noticeable listening to Blue Man's Audio; the striking of the PVC tubes had a bit more of a realistic "pop" to them. But I also found it fatiguingly bright... so I went back to reference mode and I think that's a better overall choice.

I feel like the system's starting to sound pretty bad-ass, but yep, it's not quite there yet. The improvement in detail and instrument separation is significant - I've already heard so much more detail in my music than I've ever noticed before, and I'm enjoying critical listening immensely and discovering much more in the music.

But it's still a bit lacking on the visceral impact and spatial imaging. It didn't make me want to move. I want it to be more engaging. I have a hunch the lack of clear imaging is probably due to speaker placement and room acoustics more than anything else.

So now I need to figure out what to work on next (by "work" I mean "play"... I'm very much enjoying this process and appreciate your both taking me under your wing!).

I know you guys have mentioned the fuses and power cords. I also do need to upgrade my disc spinner, since it's not UHD, and it also doesn't have a digital coax interconnect option.

I should mention that we watch far more theater/TV than I do sit and listen to CDs...and at this point, most of our movie/TV watching is done via streaming. So ultimately this is probably going to be used as a home theater setup much more than straight audio. But if I can get it where I imagine it can get for audio, that may change. ;)

So I'm back to my to do list.  Since I need to do it anyway, I think it makes sense to replace the disc player next, before I tinker with power...but I know you both feel strongly about replacing the power cables and that's definitely still on the list:

- Play with speaker placement (my only option is to move them closer together, or tweak their angles.)
- Replace my Panasonic DMP-DB35 disc player (~$500)
- Switch to 6' coax digital between disc player and preamp
- Silver Fuse for Marantz ($20)
- New power cords ($250+)
- Switch from unbalanced to balanced interconnects between the Marantz and Denon ($150), maybe not necessary.
- Fix room acoustics, if possible ($$?)


Time to take a closer look at the Sony and Yamaha transports you recommended!

I thought awilder is now open to spend way more than originally anticipated. 
Yup...I think power cord upgrade is a must for both the Marantz 8802 and the Rotel RMB-1585 amp. Especially the Rotel RMB-1585 is a high current five-channel amp. A stock power cord won't do any good and will limit currents needed for the amp. 
Interconnects and speakers cables need upgrade as well. 

Hiya caphill.  I know you and both love audio and you love recommending and building the perfect system.  But let's not get overzealous just yet.  awilder has just picked up the 8802a and he's already wayyy over budget.  I don't think he's anywhere near considering something like a Oppo 205 OR even a Moddwright Oppo 205 ... or even considering a separate 2-channel preamp.  

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I think our first goal should be getting the Marantz 8802a to work well in his system.  Power cords are definitely a factor, but so is the budget he has to work with.  :)  I suggested the fuse upgrade because it's actually the cheapest upgrade and will significantly improve things.  The power cords are going to be a lot more expensive.  And we haven't even gotten to interconnects.
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@awilder - you mentioned trading your RCA interconnects back to Blue Jean Cable to get some XLR cables.  I just wanted to let you know that I think the Blue Jean "LC-1" RCA cables are better than the two XLR cables they have.  The reason is the LC-1 uses a solid-core 25awg conductor.  Both of their XLR cables use a stranded 24awg or 26awg conductor.

I’m positive when set up properly the Marantz 8802 will outperform your Denon receiver’s preamp processing section.
It took me by surprise when you said earlier that you preferred the Denon over the Marantz 8802. Hard to believe.

@awilder

In regards to your Marantz 8802, I bet the Audyssey was still turned on from a previous owner's configuration and I suggest you turn the Audyssey calibration off. That was probably the reason why the performance was a bit off. Until you receive the Audyssey setup microphone then you can start doing your own calibration for your room, or you can also leave the Audyssey off the whole time. It’s up to you to decide whether you like it with Audyssey on or off.

You should upgrade the power cords for your Marantz 8802 and your Rotel RMB-1585 as well as for your bluray player and other source components. Especially the Rotel RMB-1585 is a high current five-channel power amp, you definitely have to upgrade the power cord for it.

The Marantz 8802 was great for home theater use and performs almost flawlessly. I have heard it in my own HT setup and system before paired with all my Classe Delta series class AB amps on the B&W 800 D3 speaker surround system. My cousin also owns one paired with the same Rotel RMB-1585 amp and the combo performed really well on his B&W 804 D3 surround speaker system.

However, to me the 8802 isn’t good enough when used as a stereo preamp for stereo music playbacks. Maybe I have high expectations cause I don’t use my AV preamp processor for stereo music listening since I have a separate reference setup and system in a separate dedicated well treated 2ch listening room that consist of cost-no-object design gears and accessories and high end cables, etc.
If and when budget permits you should consider getting a good quality dedicated analog stereo linestage preamp that has HT bypass input so you can connect your Marantz 8802 pre-out for front LR channels to this HT bypass input on the stereo preamp thus disabling the volume in the stereo preamp when this HT bypass input is selected. Keep the Marantz 8802 for surround duties only. Then for your stereo music playbacks you will have to get a good quality digital front end components (CD/SACD player or/and a streamer/DAC or a standalone DAC) and connect via analog to a stereo analog linestage preamp. So when listening to stereo music the Marantz 8802 isn’t in the signal path at all and you don’t even have to turn it on. Your bluray player and other AV sources are still connected to the Marantz 8802. Basically just leave the Marantz 8802 for surround duties for movies (HT).

For your stereo music source component if you can find a used Modwright Oppo 205 player and you can use this for everything : CD/HDCD, SACD, DVD-Audio, bluray, DVD Video, 4k UHD bluray disc playbacks and run the 205 via HDMI & coax to the Marantz 8802 for surround movie playbacks and run a pair of stereo XLR balanced interconnects out of the Oppo 205 directly to a stereo analog preamp for 2ch music playbacks. The Modwright mod only affects the stereo analog audio output stages on the Oppo 205 and this is the best mods that Dan Modwright has ever done. Comes with an external PSU unit that feeds power to the stereo analog audio output stages only. The Modwright mods are tube based. The Modwright Oppo 205 includes total redesign of its stereo analog audio output stages which includes replacement of op-amps with a discrete class A output stages in its stereo analog output stages as well as true differential or fully balanced design implementation with its stereo analog output stages. This mod also includes further dampening of the Oppo’s disc transport. This fully modded Modwright Oppo 205 will elevate the player’s performance to near reference quality.
I have heard this Modwright Oppo 205 before in my own reference 2ch setup and it was very good. It’s highly musical and very analog sounding while it doesn’t perform on the same level as my DCS Vivaldi full four stacks digital front end components but I must say that the Modwright Oppo 205 is still quite impressive considering the added total costs of the modifications and a cost of the stock Oppo 205 alone.

But all these will cost you quote a bit : good quality stereo analog linestage preamp and a good quality digital front end source component(s) for your stereo music listening needs such as the Modwright Oppo 205.

This only relates to digital cables.  If the cable is too short, what happens is when the digital pulse hits the target device, some of the charge will actually be reflected back to the source equipment.  This "reflected pulse" will interfere with the newly generated pulses and actually cause some of the pulses to be cancelled out, therefore creating errors in the digital transmission.  The result can be heard as smeared or lower resolution sound.  So, for any digital cable (digital COAX, USB, HDMI), I always recommend at least a 6 foot.  The experts say that you should have a minimum 1.5 meter cable (4.5 feet), but I always go 6 feet to be safe.
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This does not apply to power cables or interconnects.  Power cables and interconnects can be as short as you need them (but I always say it's good to have just a little bit extra length in case you need to move equipment around a little).

Thanks for all this... will definitely have some research to do this weekend!

On the digital coax (which I do intend on doing once I replace my disc player), you said to make sure it's minimum 6 feet. I'm curious, what difference does that make?

Oh, you already have the Panasonic DMP-DB35.  That doesn't even have a digital COAX, so I would not bother getting coax cables now, unless you want to.  It's not worth it to try a good toslink cable because you are already thinking of replacing the Panasonic. lol.
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Those Silverstar fuses are pretty much a steal at this price, and because they are 100% silver, they are definitely what you need to add speed to Marantz.  Normally, the upgrade fuses are in the $60-90 price range and are definitely expensive.
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The Power cord $50 estimate is actually extremely low.  If you were able to DIY a bit and cut/reterminate a plug, then I could probably recommend something anywhere from $150 to $450 investment for a really good power cord.  Otherwise, for $50 range, you are looking at something like this:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1-5M-5ft-Element-Power-Cord-Cable-Wattgate-and-Marinco-HighEnd-Audiophile-U-S-A/253938496557?hash=item3b1fe9f42d:g:GYUAAOSwHPNbKEpK:rk:7:pf:0 
It won't be a great power cord, but the Wattgate connectors will increase speed and impact.  The problem is I have found that the brass connectors can "push too hard" and become harsh sounding. 


Here's another option if you want:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/5-Ft-Silver-Plated-12AWG-IEC-AudioPhile-Power-Cord-Cable-W-Wattgate-Connectors/151904760005?epid=859384614&hash=item235e3ab0c5:g:4PkAAOSwv-NWYRZg:rk:8:pf:0 
silver plated wire with wattgate connectors - will push super hard on the voltage.  

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In my opinion, the best way is to get a very nice solid core power cord and then chop the ends and re-terminate using a Furutech silver plated IEC and a Cardas rhodium/silver male plug.  This could be a $200-250 investment or more.

I would not worry too much about the age of the HTS1000.  The primary filter elements use film capacitors and coils, which really don't wear out.  The HTS1000 does use a couple of electrolytic capacitors, which do dry out over time, but unless you're getting a buzzing sound, you can definitely put a replacement power conditioner lower down on the priority list.  On that 6 foot extension, if it's not a heavy gauge cord, I would recommend going down to Home Depot or something and getting one of those extra heavy duty 12awg power cords.  They are cheap and the large 12awg will not restrict current.

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One other thing I noticed is you said you are playing CD audio over HDMI.  This is a bad bad thing (most people don't realize this).  I would highly recommend getting some digital COAX cables.  This is what I generally recommend for the money:

https://www.bluejeanscable.com/store/digital-audio/index.htm 

Get the Beldon 1694A cable and make sure it's minimum 6 feet (even if you don't need the length).  At $20.75 per cable, it's really cheap and does much better than HDMI.  Get one cable for each source device you have (bluray, cable/satellite box, etc.).  You should be able to configure the Marantz to use a different digital input for audio.  I would configure two different setups for Bluray.  One setup uses audio through HDMI - you would use this input configuration only for bluray discs that have TrueHD or DTS-MA HD audio.  Then create a second input configuration that uses that HDMI for video and digital COAX for audio.  Use this for all other things, such as CD and DVD movies. 

Just saw your followup...

I’m definitely not ready to "cut my losses" on the Marantz! I think it is likely revealing other weak links in my setup, so want to address those first...many of which I’d also want to do, regardless of which preamp I have.

- Replace my Panasonic DMP-DB35 disc player (~$500)
- Play with speaker placement (free!)
- Try the Audyssey setup (free!)
- Switch from unbalanced to balanced interconnects between the Marantz and Denon ($150; may still be able to exchange the first BJC interconnects)
- Replace the Monster Cable power hub ($150?)
- Silver Fuse ($20)
- New power cord ($50?)

Oh hey, maybe I can get a few bucks for my power strip!  Heh.

https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lis93f69-monster-power-hts1000-powercenter-free-ship-and-pp-ac-con...

Oh, no need to apologize!  I'm pretty sure we're going to be able to get he Marantz to blow away the Denon. I wouldn't be surprised if the Marantz is revealing other weak links in my setup.

I'm not opposed to tinkering with fuses and power cords..but let me first try the factory reset (and Audyssey configuration) and see how it fares after that.

Regarding power -- please try not to laugh: I have all my components plugged in to a verrrry old Monster Power HTS1000 (circa 1999...), running off a 6' extension cord (except for the Rotel, which is in a separate outlet). The outlet most convenient to my electronics is behind a bookcase, so I can't easily change out that extension cord; and I had to use an extension cord with a flat plug, to get the bookcase against the wall...sigh.

My understanding is that surge suppressors usually only have 10-year lifespan, so it's probably time to change out that power strip anyway?

I had originally recommended the Marantz because I am a firm believer in discrete analog stages.  It is pretty amazing that Marantz can deliver a processor that has 14 fully discrete analog output stages for $4k retail!!!  To get an 8 channel discrete processor, you have to look at the Bryston SP3 which retails for $9.8k or Krell S1200U which retailed $12.5k!!
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In all of my testing with different circuits and listening to many different systems, the devices that use op amps can sound good, but they just do not "sing" like a discrete circuit.  However, it could be that you might want to cut your losses with the Marantz and re-sell it.  In that case, I can think of a few options:

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Yamaha CX-A5100.  This will probably get you back closer to the sound of the Denon.  New is $2500, but used are in the $1800-2000 range.  There is actually a used one on audiogon for $1345.  Obviously, no discrete analog stages, but it may likely sound better than your Denon receiver.
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Anthem AVM 60.  This is probably the highest resolution processor in the budget range (before going to the Krell Foundation).  retail $3k.  Used in the $2200 to $2600 range.  There's a "new in box" one on ebay for $2488.
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Or go back to using your Denon receiver as a preamp for now.  You seemed very happy with the sound, but realize that there are some compromises to be had (i.e. there were some things with the Marantz that out-shined the Denon). 

Wow.  I'm really sorry that you felt like you went backwards in some ways with the Marantz.  When I tested the 8805 in my system, I was using all my very high end power cords and interconnects and everything.  The only thing I did not do was upgrade the fuse in Marantz to a Hi-Fi Tuning silver (which is something I would have totally done).  We only had the Marantz in my system for one afternoon.  When I say "it had good impact", I mean it had good punch in the midbass and midrange impact.  A good amount of punch-you-in-the-chest impact and stuff like snare drums hit with authority.  The high frequencies were definitely rolled off, but it was not that bad.  Your situation could be from stock fuse and power cords and stuff.  It could also be that your using the previous owner's Audessey setup, and I would love to hear if this was the case.  Doing a factory reset is always a recommended thing because you don't know what the existing configuration is doing to your sound.  That being said, I will make comments based on what you're hearing now.
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So, I guess the first question is to whether or not you want to work with the Marantz to try to get it to sound better.  This could be just adding a silver fuse into the Marantz.  But it could also mean you need to upgrade the power cords and possibly the interconnects.  This could mean spending hundreds of dollars on "tweaking your system for the Marantz".  We just won't know until we get there - doing one step at a time.
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When you say you "kept feeling like you had to turn up the volume and had to strain to hear certain things", I think I know what you mean.  If the equipment is too warm/slow sounding, it will cause the upper midrange and highs to become too soft and laid back.  This will prevent the more subtle sounds from cutting through, especially when there is a lot of different sounds going on, and you may not feel you're getting the full impact of sound crispness and clarity and sharpness.
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The first tweak for the Marantz (if you want to try working with it) is to upgrade the fuse.  Do you feel comfortable taking off the top cover of the Marantz?  It's very easy.  The top cover can be removed just by removing the screws that hold it in place.  The fuse or fuses should be on a small board that is very close to the power cord socket.  On these processors, it is usually a small fuse, but you should check.  If the fuse is less than 1" long, then it is the small 5x20 size. If it is longer than 1", then it is the large 6.3x32 size.  Parts Connexion is selling the older Hi-Fi Tuning Silverstar for 60% off - $16 for a small fuse.  They have a couple of the 1.8A left (I recommend getting a 2A fuse if possible).  This silver fuse should improve the clarity and impact a good amount.  If this doesn't get you all the way, we can still upgrade the power cord as well, which will make a difference too.  The goal would be to get as much silver elements into the power supply system as possible.  Please be aware that the silver fuse will require a 7-10 day burn-in before it settles down.

Good morning!

Yep, so much for the budget! Heh. I felt like another amp/preamp combo unit might be worth spending $2k on....but I already feel like I'm getting way more value by using separates, so that's why I'm cool with spending more. (And, I got really good prices all these pieces of kit!) So...Budget? What budget? ;)

@caphill - You're absolutely right about the amp. It feels like the 803's breathed a sigh of relief, like they could finally be unleashed and have just opened up so much more. I'm so glad you guys talked me into it! ;)

I hooked up the 8802A yesterday and listened to a few tracks on CD. I then swapped in my NHTM2 with the new-to-me HTM1, and we watched the Season 2 finale of West World.

The Marantz seems to be working great - I updated the firmware and have gone through all the settings, except for Audyssey setup.  The seller didn't have the Audyssey microphone, but I picked one up on eBay for $20 and hopefully it'll arrive today.

[Sidenote, for anyone searching: The Audyssey DM-A505Z microphone, which came with my Denon, is NOT interchangeable with the ACM1H or ACM1HB microphones, which the Marantz uses. I confirmed this via email with Audyssey.] 

Initial reactions:

For music, the clarity and instrument separation is definitely there, but I feel like it's lacking on "visceral impact."  I felt like I had to keep turning up the volume, but then I realized my face was scrunched up a little bit, like I was straining to listen.  With the Denon+Rotel combo, I didn't have that feeling - I was just enveloped in the sound (though I played it at pretty high volume too).  The sound stage felt a bit more compressed laterally, with more things coming from the center and not nearly as wide. It felt a bit more recessive front/back as well.  It was a subtle difference, but it's definitely not there yet.  (I was listening in 2-channel stereo mode direct, no sub.)  Perhaps I need to tweak my speaker placement for the Marantz?

@auxinput - you said " I suspect it will be more fuller sounding with more impact as well." I definitely agree with fuller sounding - in a big way...but the impact actually feels lower to me. If feels like the image is a little further away, or a bit recessive somehow. 

I hate to say it, but my immediate reaction was that I wanted to go back to the Denon+Rotel combo!  :/

I wonder if it's also now revealing flaws in my old Panasonic Blu-Ray player, which I was using for the CDs. (I was also transmitting the audio to the preamp via HDMI.)

For West World, it definitely sounded HUGE which was great... and having the HTM1 in the center was awesome -- the blending of the Left/Center/Right made for a much more seamless experience (the HTM2 always felt like it was struggling compared to the 803's). But it was also a bit boomy at times in the mid-ranges; it felt it bit _too_ full. 

My surround speakers (B&W DM301's) are tucked in the upper corners of the room, pointed towards the center of the room -- and our couch is against the back wall. Not ideal, but it's what I've got.  It provides a pretty atmospheric surround, but there was one point last night where the sound of a vehicle approaching felt like it came from directly behind us, and made me do a double-take...I've never heard that before in this room. I'll give credit to the Marantz on that one!

I just realized this morning that it may have been applying the previous owner's Audyssey correction; I'll double-check that later today. Perhaps that will fix the boominess. I might also just do a full factory reset on the Preamp (should've done that first!) and then reconfigure things again...just to be sure there are no other old settings interfering.

In the meantime, I'm curious to know your thoughts on my initial reactions! :)

The thing about HT processors is that they lose their value really fast. The 8802A is selling "used" between $1500 and $1800 nowadays. About 6 or 8 months ago it was at the $2000-2200 range.

Awesome! The Rotel RMB-1585 is indeed a fine great amp and has plenty of unlimited power reserve to be able to drive just about any speakers out there, and at $3k retail price I think it’s a steal. This amp is built like a tank. You should upgrade the AC power cord for this amp as it will make big difference.
My cousin has this same Rotel RMB-1585 in his HT setup driving all B&W 804 D3 front speakers with a matching HTML2 D3 center and a pair of 805 D3 for surrounds. He couldn’t be happier with his current setup. He’s also using the Marantz AV8802 pre pro.

In the beginning when he first purchased the AV8802 processor he paired it with the Marantz MM8807 seven-channel power amp but he wasn’t satisfied with the performance and felt like the power amp was holding back his system’s performance and after 2 months living with this MM8077 amp he was able to upgrade to the Rotel RMB-1585 amp and the difference between these 2 amps were huge. The Rotel RMB-1585 is night and day better than the Marantz MM8077 seven-channel amp regardless of whether you use it for stereo music playbacks or surround movies (HT).

The Marantz MM8077 is not a good amp at all especially in comparison to the Rotel RMB-1585. The RMB-1585 is much more refined musical and fluid and lot more solid than the MM8077. It is better in all areas. No comparison. The MM8077 is cheaper than the RMB-1585 and you get more channels of amplification than the Rotel. The Marantz MM8077 retails for only $2300 brand new whereas the RMB-1585 is $3k new.

You can easily tell the differences in size, mass and weight between these two amplifiers. The Rotel RMB-1585 is huge massive and weighs in about 80 lbs and it is only a five-channel amp. The Marantz MM8077 is much smaller and weighs in only at around 43 lbs and yet it is a seven-channel amp, has more channels of amplification than the Rotel.
The MM8077 has only one main toroidal transformer power supply for all 7 channels whereas the RMB-1585 has 2 main large toroidal transformer power supplies for only 5 channels. And the Rotel’s toroidal transformer power supplies are of better quality than that of the Marantz MM8077 amp.

Again glad that you’re happy with your amp purchase. Keep us posted of your first impression of the Marantz AV8802 that you just purchased. You got a great deal on that processor cause the original retail price of the AV8802 was $4k when it was still in production and this model was just recently discontinued and replaced by the AV8805. And the AV8802A supports pretty much current formats and codecs except maybe it does not support Dolby Vision and the latest HDR on the video side of things. Are you sure that the AV8802 that you bought is in working condition make sure it isn’t a defect unit or nothing’s wrong with the unit. Cause the price that you paid was unbelievably cheap. I know that these Japanese mass produced AV manufacturers (Denon Marantz Onkyo/Integra Yamaha Pioneer Sony) don’t hold their resale values well.

That's really awsome!  It's amazing on how good a particular set of speakers will sound if you match a really good high current amp!  You are now getting into the "really good stuff" area!

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" The distinction between individual instruments is striking."  -- This is what i call "separation of instrument" and you need to have a really good amp to do this best.  I'm happy that you're receiving such a positive result on this!!  And WOW, you bought an 8802a already?  What happened to the $2,000 budget? lololol -- this actually happens to us audiophiles SO MUCH! 
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Onto the 8802a!  When you get it hooked up and first listen, your first impressions might be "where did the detail and clarity go".  Like I said before, it is voiced warm, so it will have rolled off highs.  But if you listen closely, I think you will find that the audio is overall more natural and "true" sounding.  I suspect it will be more fuller sounding with more impact as well.  We can tune this to be higher resolution, but first we want your general impressions on how you feel it sounds!
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Panasonic DP-UB820.  Well, I suppose you could get this, but in my opinion, there are much better transports.  The Panasonic does have 7.1 analog audio outputs, but why would you need those if you have an HT Processor like the 8802a?  The Panasonic does not even have a digital COAX output, which is something I think is critical for sound quality (it only has optical, which is a really bad digital interface).
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A much better bluray "transport" would be the Sony UBP-X1000ES at the same $499 price point.  I have had Sony bluray players in the past and they really make pretty darn good "digital transports".  It has a digital coax output, which will give you superior sound quality for 2-channel PCM audio as well as old school compressed Dolby Digital and DTS (yes, even DD/DTS sounds better through digital coax when compared to HDMI).  The only time you want to use audio through HDMI is when you are playing blurays with the higher resolution Dolby TrueHD and DTS-MA HD audio formats.  The sony player also has a very excellent collection of streaming apps (netflix, amazon, pandora, etc.).  It also has a conventional IEC input, so you can do power cord upgrades if you wish.

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Another bluray choice could be the Yamaha BD-A1060.  I think it may have better power supply than the Sony with metal shields between power supply and audio circuits.  It does have 2-channel XLR audio outputs, if you want to try that, but I think the 8802a digital will sound better.  This also has IEC for power cord upgrades.

Update! I got the Rotel RMB-1585 yesterday and got a chance to hook it up and listen to it for a few minutes this afternoon. I’m still using the Denon as the preamp.

I listened to just a few tracks and... WOW!

Huge difference! The sound is much richer and fuller, and the mid- and low-ranges are just, well, bigger (but not muddy).

The distinction between individual instruments is striking.

Towards the end of Blue Man’s "PVC IV" I found myself with an involuntary, ear-to-ear grin as I was just enveloped by the sound...the resonance of the PVC tubes was legit! That’s the first time I’ve heard that track where the resonance felt, well, real and impactful.

I hate to admit it, but I actually cried a bit at the end because it was SO. EFFING. AMAZING.

In other fun news: I got a great price last week on a Marantz 8802A on eBay (about $1500 including shipping), and it’s already arrived. (Thanks @hemi04 for chiming in--your comment helped convince me it was worth going for the Marantz too!) As soon as I have some more time I’m going to get it in place instead of the Denon and take another listen. Very excited for that next step up!

(I also got the HTM1... it won’t fit in my current rack, so I might just keep it on the floor for now and get it hooked up, too...Got new Salamander racks coming next week, with a semi-custom config so the HTM1 will fit nicely in the center. I’ll send pics once it’s up, I’m pretty excited about it.)

And then I think it’ll be time to replace my old blu-ray spinner. So... Panasonic DP-UB820, or.......?

Also it is a very big difference over the htm2 im running mine with a pair of 803D in black ash because i have not found any htm2D in black ash but it still sounds great never harsh at all. Also running the marantz 8802a and love it 

I have an HTM1 and love it 

Yep. I realized that as soon as I add in the Rotel, my HTM2's weakness compared to the 803S's will be even more obvious (it's already lacking, with just the Denon). 

He gave me a good price on the HTM1, and since there aren't any HTM3S's available right now (in cherry), I figure I'll try the HTM1. If I love it, then I'm done and I've saved some money. And if not, I'll keep looking for an HTM3S (and then sell the HTM1). Both should ship on Monday...

so, did you end up getting the HTM1?

Will do! :)

@awilder 

Don't forget to let us know how the Rotel RMB-1585 performs and sounds on your B&W 803S when you receive the amp and whether the center speaker that you are getting from the seller makes a big difference. 

Well, then you definitely have your answer.  Sounds like you really want this HTM1, so why not? lol

Thanks @cakyol.  Caphill and Auxinput actually convinced me to get a (used) Rotel RMB-1585 (see above)...and then I'll be investing in a separate pre/pro at some point in the future.