My friend who a DIY speakers builder come to conclusion that compression drivers with metal diaphragms are so transparent and detailed and it shows imperfection of electronics.
One example from my experience, when I just bought 300B amplifier I used it with Spendor 2/3 and Altec 604E speakers. With Spendors sound was good but with Altec was some harshness. In the end the reason was bad (harsh sounding) cheap 6f6 drivers tube. When I replaced them to better 6f6 harshness on Altecs was gone. But on other hand, Spendors didn't sound harsh even with the bad 6f6! |
So much depends on how loud you drive them. Some people's "loud" is NOT loud to me. My loud is VERY loud and that's where the horns get shouty and ear piercing. At the same volume, non-horn speakers like my Tektons are much more pleasant to rock to. I've thrown many a party with the Cornwall and CF3... They certainly deliver but then you get to something like Celine Dions voice and you have to leave the room because it's very sharp. |
Horn speakers they depict as sounding dynamic and live .
i went out of my way to hear fleetwood deville speakers at a audio get together
they sound nice dynamic and very live as in real ,But they are more first few rows perspective ,in my opinion over time in your face even though not bright
can be tiresome ,unless you have tubes to mellow it out .i have very good solid state that is smooth , such a shame too for they look very nice.
They should offer Xover parts options such as Duelund ,Jupiters Vh audio Milflex With top Mundorf Copper foil resistors, or Path audio.
peach having their own perspectives ,and from my vast experience with Xovers
pit would Bree more natural and take on a much more friendly 7-8 th row perspective.. this is the problem with companies that think they know it all when in fact they know so little about Xover parts sonics. I am basing this on over 20 years on most every thing out there , being a long time Klipsch guy who has rebuilt many and figured out how to control their sonics to several Sonic perspectives. |
While I cannot comment on commercial / lower grade horns, as I have not heard any, my reference is the four horn systems that my friends and I have here on the island. They are in systems that were fine tuned for decades, by the most hard-core audiophiles who have tried everything in their life (cost no object), and settled with horns. Two are Altec A5-based (with crossovers modified to Valhalla and beyond), one is a big Edgar horn (with the Edgarhorn sub!), and one is my own design from ground up (Altec 515/288 drivers).
A common feature in these systems is there is not a hint of "horn coloration" in any of these sounds. If you were blind folded, you would not be able to tell from the tonality that you are listening to horns (zero honk / shout), although you could immediately tell by the shocking naturalness, lack of audiofile "plastic processed sound", lightning speed, full size, dense substance, and lack of even a hint of compression or listening fatigue at any level that these are unlike any speakers you heard. You can play these at +20dB SPL compared to other speaker technologies and have less listening fatigue than with others at that much lower SPLs.
They all give an experience that totally messes with you, and makes you feel that these are technologies from another planet compared to mainstream stereo gear.
Horn speakers are a life-long quest. Do not even think to have them if there are problems in your chain elsewhere, as they will show without mercy when the emperor is naked. And most audio gear is definitively unflattering when there's nowhere to hide.
If you are curious about horns, try to find someone in your area who has done it to perfection, and listen to it. You may not be lucky to have anyone near you though.... or you might have several. YMMV...
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What island are you living on? |
The strength of a top notch horn system is the ability to sound great at very low volume levels--they still manage to sound lively, detailed and engaging even when played softly. Some systems do tend toward "shouting" at extremely high volume levels, but, I hardly care about that because I don't like to listen at that kind of level. Moreover, the very best amps, to me, are all low in power and can deliver great sound without having to "raise the roof." I don't care if a system is unable to achieve rock concert listening levels; if my system ever sounded as bad a rock concert, it would be gone the next day. |
then you get to something like Celine Dions voice and you have to leave the room because it's very sharp.
Not sure I'd want to be at that party........... |
Well listening to Tri of Triplanars field coil horn system certainly enlightened me to the strengths of horns as have a few other systems I have heard throughout the years. Exposure to these better horn speakers had given me a appreciation of this type. Low level detail is one of the greatest strengths of horns.
I do feel however that many horn users underpower their speakers and this has nothing to do with volume just some of the intrinsic problems present with SET amps. If I were to go horn I would use OTLs, which are the amps I use on my dynamic speakers currently.
I have yet to hear a dynamic woofer integrate well with horns. I have only heard horn loaded woofers a few times and this was really special, but this didnt change what I dont like about horns just made the system more cohesive. |
@larryi
lol 😂
I don't care if a system is unable to achieve rock concert listening levels; if my system ever sounded as bad a rock concert, it would be gone the next day.
my listen levels never pass 80dB 10 feet away
especially with two years twins and 6 years boy all over me at any moment 😂😂😂
to me I think the strength of a horn speakers is able to sounds great @ low volume
I use tone control in the night for low volume listen
With my two horn set up I have try to switch one to different speakers but I haven’t got any full tower speakers with great dynamics under 6k that I like
one of the speakers I may interested in future is legacy aeris but I can’t afford it 😂😂😂 |
I think $2000.00 is fair for V1s in great condition like that. Mine are version 1 and they are getting very hard to find. I thought that yours might be version 2 lordrootamn because the dust caps on the woofers looked shinier than mine. |
@roxy54
yes mine is definitely V2
I want V1 though but is really hard to find
I will definitely sell my KLF 30 if I got V1 lol
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@roxy54
The guy is not interested online transaction and all PayPal things
so search continues |
I think an all horn system set up right is impossible to beat. In cases like the Cornwall 1,2 and 3 the tweeter IS harsh and needs to be replaced with something like the LMAHLs or SMAHLs. Same for KLF series. There is also another possibility with those specific speakers which is crossovers that old have capacitors out of spec. Recapping can end a lot of sour sounds. None of the Klipsch speakers mentioned by the OP are purely horn loaded speakers so to say horn driven speakers like these infers they are an this is not correct.
I do have a pure horn loaded system. Klipsch K-402's with the latest K-1132 driver and new phase plug and a derivation of the MCM 1900 MWM bass bin except mine has a 108" throat and it goes effortlessly down to 27hz. Bi amped with Xilica for DSP and I have a stream of people who find excuses to visit me and listen. Stunning accurate realism at low or high volumes and if you want to play for sound effects fireworks can be felt across the room at higher volumes. The problem with good bass horns is the required size to get good clean low end hz and most people do not want that big ugly WAF zero in their house.
Good all horn systems are relatively rare because they are harder to do than regular speakers. I think most audio types have never heard a good set and base their all horns suck on so so or worse sets. DIY forum has a ton of information on all horn systems and many blueprints and knock down kits to give you what you want but you have to get your hands dirty in many cases.
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The true pleasurable lovable sound from what ever speaker design the individual chooses from I hope you choose what sounds near perfect to you. Not others. I personally have four different sets of horn speakers and two regular design speakers. Tweeters -( paper or dome ). I simply love the sound of each of my individual speakers. One design is not written in stone for me. I understand some style of music ( classic rock funk blues jazz and r&b ) will sound better on different style of design speakers and I am very much so appreciative of that. So I am willing to compromise to get the absolutely best sound to my ears.
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Horn speakers especially high frequency horns can sound sharp or brightr or screechy or whatever but properly done will do trhings that the ubiquitous dome tweeter simply can't. Mounted on a waveguide and using severe toe-in provides a very wide sweet spot, about as wide as the speakers are apart. Also the wavegude when positined as mentioned prevents or limits the damage strong early reflections cause. Hard to go back to domes after hearing a good horn/waveguide setup.
Pink Floyd never played through dome tweeters! 😈
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I just got a pair of klipsch kg4s this week and they don't sound harsh or "shouty" to me. On the contrary they (to my ears) sweeten rock music of the 60s and 70s. I've been listning to them for hours all week with enjoyment. Do they reproduce sound to RIAA standards? Not even close. But if you want to crank some alice cooper they are really fun. The horns add a clarity to vocals and guitars that just can't be beat for $250.
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I wonder how much of your experience is the speaker position next to all that equipment tv screen and so on. The normal horn dispersion is getting reflected by the walls and equipment including the tv most probably.
I have a different category of horns, hand turned American maple and a super tweeter set up powered by Luxman M900u, etc. my experience is based on at least a four foot clearance around the horns. A better layout here could improve your experience I’m thinking if you can drop to two shelves or reconsider the locations and set ups. Watching Acoustic Fields Dennis Foley offers loads of information.
That said my horns have never been bright or harsh. Only using an Esoteric K03Xs did I find it too harsh not even on horns and sold that unit. No regrets.
You’ve got two great sets of equipment that might even give you greater pleasure and experience if you can experiment a little. Others comments on certain equipment and synergy factor here too. Room acoustics and speaker positions are a strong part of that mix.
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I have JBL 1400 Array's with a horn loaded compression midrange and super tweeter. They certainly are not "bright", the sound overal is mellow.
It depends how well a speaker type is implemented, some horn type compression drivers are definitey horribly screechy.
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horns can be bright, any type of speaker can be bright if not properly impemented. The example of Khorns with a Crown DC300A is a perfect example of how NOT to implement them.
The idea that horns are always bright as some have opined is ridiculous. Check out my system.. nothing bright about it
https://systems.audiogon.com/users/herman
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Some people may have bright rooms.
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Herman,
Isn't the sound affected by the large objects sitting in the bass horns?
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Herman,
Isn't the sound affected by the large objects sitting in the bass horns?
well, I suppose it has to have some effect, and I haven't done a lot of experimenting , but it sounds excellent as is so no desire to so... until now since you brought it up🙁
For now assume that is doesn't and I'l report back later if it does.
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I did little mods to both set
I rebuild CF4 crossover with high quality one and replace drivers with Ciare HW321
on KLF 30 I did a lot
I replace midrange drivers
I replace the crossover with Bob Crites model
i replace diaphragm with titanium diaphragm
I replace jumpers and binding Post
I replace all 12" drivers with Ciare HW321
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How do you know lordrootman that the change of drivers didn't require changes in the crossover, and if so, were you equipped to make those crossover changes?
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@rozy54 initially I bought Ciare https://usspeaker.com/ciare-hw321-1.htm
For my KLF 30 and and I was wondering how it sound on my CF4 since both use the same 12 inches drivers but CF4 use neodymium drivers
i try it and sounds good to me so I leave it on there 😂😂😂😂
So I don’t have any technical details to back it up only my ears
my CF4 crossover was removed and ship to Bob Crites to Rebuild with high quality capacitors
Still have my original drivers though
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@herman, impressive horn system. What is your crossover point to from big bass horn to the next? It's a passive XO I take it from seeing just one amp.
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@herman, impressive horn system. What is your crossover point to from big bass horn to the next? It's a passive XO I take it from seeing just one amp.
I should put that this in the description, The mid horn rolls off naturally about 200-2Khz. Above that the tweeter has the stock avantgarde first order filter and below 200 the bass horn has a first order filter, as single inductor in series.
I have tried triamping with various electronic and digital crossovers but this is much more cohesive, simpler, and of course less expensive
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I have modified khorns I bought an upgrade package from volti audio.
This included all new drivers and new mid-range horns. I also had a new set of crossovers made this greatly improved the sound quality of the khorns.
I feel they sound best with a tube amp and a turntable. With live records the soundstage is amazing!
I have tried other amps and the sound is different with each one try out some different amplifier's till you get what you are looking for.
Happy hunting!!
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I have over 30 pairs of speakers, I can change them all the time....Went I get boarded or want a change. There here...lol
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There were two instances where horns sounded good. Vintage 1980s Klipschhorn and Acapella Cellini!
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The trick with horns is to take advantage of their controlled directivity- you can use that to minimize side wall reflections, thus allowing them to be smoother than a lot of non-horn systems.
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That is very true atmasphere. I have less trouble with reflections since using horns.
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@lordrootman
Does Klipsch make any modern day speakers similar to the design of the EPIC CF4??
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@lowrider57
nope nope
I wish they still make CF4 or even something similar to KLF 30
i guess forte and Cornwall IV is great but I don't really like the height of either
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I think that part of the magic of the Epic CF4 is the D'Appolito configuration of the drivers.
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My current pair of speakers is Klipsch KP301 II's with the larger midrange horn, and I've customized the tweeters with B & C drivers. The only other speakers I've even considered were Altec Lansing, so you could say yes, I'm sold on horn speakers to say the least. I've owned Klipsch speakers since 1977 and I agree with everybody who's spoke up saying there are many factors leading to a speaker sounding bright weather it be Klipsch or not. And the fellow that said horn's are distorted or whatever way he put it, was just silly. Bad horn speakers sound distorted, good horn speakers sound the best I've ever heard. The leading-edge is very important in any system because we all know . . . what you put in is ultimately responsible for what you get out.
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Big beautiful monsters. Thanks.
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I have a pair of Altec Lansing 604Cs.
They were bright with the stock crossover.
I replaced the crossover with Mastering Lab crossovers. They have two shelves and were specifically designed to correct this weakness. They did solve the problem.
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Hi @unreceivedogma,
I use Altec 604E with original and Werner Jagusch crossovers.
The horn of 604E compression driver has an issue - ringing on 7.5KHz.
Mastering Labs crossover filter out this frequency. It also suppresses upper bass and lower mid and increases mid and low bass. I never heard Mastering Labs crossover.
Werner Jagusch crossover suppresses high frequencies from 5KHz and up. So sound become very smooth but very dark. It partially can be compensated by external super-tweeter.
The original N1500 sounds bright when high frequency regulator is on maximum. But with some high frequency regulator adjustment -3.5dB (7.5 Ohm on part of potentiometer that serial with compression driver) the sound become well balanced. In this case external super-tweeter helps to get more refined sound. I just built this crossover using original inductors, good quality capacitors and constant value resistors. I like n1500 more than Werner Jagusch. n1500 gives a better more focused soundstage, flatter more neutral response on high frequencies. Plus original n1500 inductor give more controlled bass.
I use Fostex T90a supertweeter. I used it with 1st order crossover (like 99% people do) for 1 year and moved on to 4th order crossover, that give me a huge improvement.
Regards,
Alex
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Here is a video with a new DIY n-1500 crossover:
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Klipsch EPIC CF4 AND KLF 30 playing together powering by CLASSE AUDIO CA-2300 SimAudio supernova DAC Cambridge Azur 851N streaming Qobuz
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lordrootman,
Is there a particular reason why you are using both pairs at the same time? I would think that timing as well as imaging would be better with just one pair or the other.
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@roxy54 not really just boring 😂😂😂 the CA-2300 has 4 binding Post just like CF4/KLF 30 purposely for bi- wire so I figured why not give it a try since both speakers is high efficiency and CLASSE was able to drive them without any issues
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2 pair playing together doesn’t sound good. Also sounds like there is a phase issue happening.
I'd like to hear them playing individually. Also, they would sound better with some space around each speaker
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That video is proof that just because something can be done, doesn’t mean that it should be done.
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Horns are not bright (but sometimes they are horn-y!!), the best horn experience for me, were a number of Edgar Horns used with low powered SETs. I’m now back to horns with Devilles. Not quite the Edgar horn experience, but the same characteristics are there, of sorts, at least for me.…now if i had room for some big Khorns…
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