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When I read certain descriptions about speaker imaging, I’m reminded of Akira Kurosawa’s biopic. Shooting on a live volcano, he had to add a lot more smoke. Think about that for a sec. He's on a real, actual live volcano in Japan but he had to add smoke for "realism." The problem was the limitations of film. If you are standing on a volcano, you feel the heat through your body. You don’t need visual or audible clues to tell you that you are standing on top of one of nature’s furnaces. Translating this to film though, Kurosawa had to add a lot of smoke effects in order to convey the sense of heat that was impossible to transmit through the silver screen. I often think that there is such a thing as exaggerated imaging in speakers. For instance, listening to a live chorus, can you pick out each singer? I can’t, but with some speakers I feel like I can. Is this a faithful rendition of the sound anymore? I’m not sure, but perhaps this makes up for the loss of visual perception? And as you may know, there are some tricks to tweaking a FR like a dip around 2.4 kHz (conveniently often a good crossover point) which can accentuate this. |
Horns/waveguides focus the sound more directly at the users making for a smaller sweet spot for imaging. But Good ones set up well accordingly can image as well as anything. I've heard it so I know it can happen. I very much liked the dynamics and crisp presentation of the Klipsch La Scala iii at Capital Audiofest. A wide soundstage was not part of that experience though. I also love the asthetics of these and would love to own a pair just for fun. |
Mapman, is there a Klipsch Lascala series iii ( 3 ) ? I cannot find anything about it. Kosst, I suppose you brought this thread back from the dead. I am glad you got to hear a pair. Did the Lascalas you heard share the room with other speakers ? The best showrooms I have appreciated are those that demonstrate single pairs by themselves, particularly with larger speakers. Other speakers sharing a room will " play along " with the connected pair, and this effects the pair you are listening to. You should all know by now, I am an old, longtime Klipsch fan, specifically the 5 original Heritage model designs, by PWK himself ( including the newest iterations ). I never claimed perfection, but have always stated, that they do so many " musical " things correctly, that for the money ( with some mods, tweaks and careful room set up), imo, and with my experience, they are hard to beat, and, they are so easy to drive. Enjoy ! MrD. |
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@kosst_amojan Horns have to get pretty enormous to really play bass. My speakers play a compromise on that- they use TAD 1602s (15", free air resonance at 22Hz, 97 db 1 watt 1 meter). They are set up with two woofers per cabinet. No problem playing flat to 20Hz. But the rest of the system is horn based. I've often wondered what a system like this could sound like if a Lowther or the like was employed using the same 500Hz crossover frequency. But it images great (which doesn't come from a woofer anyway) so its been more of a thought exercise than anything else. |
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I’m willing to sacrifice a tad of dynamics for better imaging. I can totally understand how somebody would reverse those priorities and deem horns virtually perfect.That’s not just the only problem, then there’s the "horn" (gain coloration) to contend with as well, not to be confused with the far shallower wave guides ( pattern control ) as some will try to bring into it. Cheers George |
After living with my jbl 4367 for a month, I just don’t see how imaging could be improved that much more.Do yourself a favor and maybe listen to some relatively cheap Audio Physics speakers, to see what image placement in between and outside the speakers and 3D depth perspective is all about. Then say come back and the same. Cheers George |
Okay. But have you heard them?Yes as I've said elsewhere on Agon, I've owned Lascala's, and Forte, a friend owned K-horns and Heresy, in a large converted warehouse. Enjoyable wall of sound all of them, but not precise visual image placement in-between and outside the speaker, and not much depth perception. Cheers George |
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@georgehifi I asked have you heard m2/4367. Not all horns are created equal. The JBL patented waveguide used in the M2 and the 4367 is a different sort of beast from the other horns you've heard. Correct me if I'm wrong, but yeah it seems like youre saying you have not heard the m2/4367 and are lumping those horns with Klipsh. |
That’s a BIG reason I own Focal. Every time I heard their speakers they were honest and imaged with startling depth, width, and dynamics.A friend who owns a hifi shop, Len Wallis Audio had the Grand Utopia’s setup driven by Krells in the main room, I listened to them many times and yes, there is no way any horns or JBL’s (my friend had a pair of 4350’s and the very ugly Synthesis 1400), I’ve heard have come close to doing visual image placement in-between and outside the speakers and depth perception like these Focals could, or many ESL’s can either. Cheers George |
Remember, George is just a man, with just an opinion. I respect his judgement, as I respect his knowledge. We all hear differently, and, at least us old timers, want certain attributes and specifics in our systems. I was attracted to horns, not because of imaging or sound staging, but because of their ease, their effortless, dynamic quality that allows music to flow, like live unamplified music. I certainly hear an image created, a stage being presented, music being created, without boundaries, extending beyond every and all of the walls of my speakers. However, I feel this is not the essence of music. What is the essence, is the musicianship. Take a recording like " A Tribute To Jack Johnson ", by Miles Davis ( the original release ), possibly my favorite of his vast library. Two studio sessions, one recorded on 4 / 7, the other recorded 11 / 11 of 1970, brought forth the amazing arrangements of M.D., along with five other fabulous musicians. Want to hear synchronicity at its finest, play it through a great set of horns. Either your system will, or will not, keep up. Enjoy ! MrD. |
For me MrD, I want to see every movement visually, when Miles turns slightly left or right or even facing up then down blatting away on that horn and imagine those fingers moving up and down those valves, as the sound and the visual gives me the complete experience, this is why I opt for big ESL's. Or I suppose I could sacrifice that and have TV between the speakers to make up for the visual side and play dvd music discs. For me not just a wall of sound where the trumpet seems to be an edge-less 8ft tall and wide, same goes with singers mouths, I can get that far cheaper yet not as nice from used Bose 901’s this is where the tv would come in handy. Cheers George |
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George, you can't be serious ? You truly believe that an ESL does not change / exaggerate the image size, and that it is the only design that can show the head movement of Miles. Contrary to what you believe, you are mistaken. However, to each his own. I suggest you listen to that Miles recording I spoke about, and please, get back to me. Enjoy ! MrD. |
Um I was just trying to point out that the m2/4367 use a different horn waveguide and as such would sound a lot different than la scalas or smith horns. I have always enjoyed and respected georoge's posts, and I have no doubt that audio psychic convey a better imaging stage compared to older horn designs. |
Also like you mr. d, i did not get my horns because I wanted that pinpoint imaging, that just turned out to be a big bonus for me. I got them for their impressive off the charts dynamic capabilities, high sensitivity and ease of use to mate with tube amps, or low watt class a, and sense of scale and 'thereness' that a good horn system does better than a good standard 3 way. that is just my experience, at least. |
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120 db spl ? Are you kidding me. You think this is why I like horns. Again, clueless. I compare systems to live, unamplified music. The further you are from the musicians, the less specific the image is of the location of the performers. 50 plus years of listening, using my ears, experimenting and setting up all sorts of gear ( home and pro ), being on stage, behind the stage, in studios, and, more homes than I can count, I am happiest with what my modified, updated and tweaked Lascalas, and what they present to " me " ( especially at the ridiculous low cost of them ). That is all that matters. There are so many aspects of sound, related to music. Arguing and discussing this back and forth is ridiculous. I am glad you guys have found your areas of happiness. Enjoy all ! MrD. |
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Kosst, To each his own. I am not sure you wrote want you really wanted to say. In your latest description above, you gave Kudos to what you heard. Besides, I am not trying to dismiss anything you say, nor any opinion you have. Early on when we first communicated, you indicated you did not like the sound of live horns, as well as many other live instruments, which was interesting to me, as you, and other members of your family, played instruments. I understand the fact that you prefer hifi sound as opposed to live sound. Your last statement is amusing. Again, enjoy your dynamic speakers, as I will enjoy my horn speakers. No need to continue on this path. It is all about the music. Enjoy !MrD. |
Don't know whether you would consider these horn speakers, but they are superb and the image well: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YPffpT-sRz0 dc10Audio / Viking Acoustics Berlin R's. |
Funny...one of the first statements I hear when people listen to my customized pre 2006 Avantgardes is how well they image. Listening to a lot of other systems I tend to agree...my Horns do indeed image well! Of course it probably helps that I listen in a 1250 sq. ft. studio/loft with 16 ft. high ceilings! |
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@kosst_amojan -- I can imagine a Meyer Setup sounding better than a JBL ditto. At live (amplified) concerts the acoustics and mixing has a huge influence on the perceived sound, but there’s still an imprinting that falls back on the specific gear used - speakers in particular, and also how they’re arranged (never been fond of the large PA-arrays that is typically used nowadays, but there are exceptions of satisfying implementations here). A local cinema uses Meyer Sound (EXP) speakers, and they’re fuller and more relaxed sounding compared to other cinemas in the area that use QSC or JBL. Re: Klipsch La Scala II: great that you found the opportunity and not least took the initiative to audition them. I haven’t heard them myself, in any iteration, but my own speakers are based on the Klipsch Belle - a "belle," close sibling to the La Scala - that is, in the case of my speakers: the bass horn is more or less the same, and the rest is different and, dare I say, of better quality; be that the cabinet construction, crossovers, drivers, etc. I find they image beautifully (and are very coherent), the only real mild downside here being a restricted image height, but once you place yourself low enough in the seating position in front of them I find it to be a non-issue. The two other areas of either coloration or deficiency is a resonant character in the upper bass and lower midrange and, as you pointed to with your impressions of the La Scala’s, that they roll off quickly below some 55-60Hz. I use a sub with my speakers, so lack of extension isn’t an issue any longer (in fact I’ll replace my current sub with a pair of tapped horn subs in about a month time - should be interesting). And the upper bass/lower mids coloration (depending on the material can give the impression of a slightly hollow and resonant character that obscures details) might be alleviated once a high quality DSP will be implemented within shortly. The outlook for a true all-horn speaker setup (from 20Hz on up), which is quite rare, has me excited. It seems to me there are inherent traits if you will with horn speakers - like that of (macro-) dynamics and perhaps their sonic presence - that won’t appeal to you in whatever form these will be (and that you find objectionable at live gigs as well), and that’s totally cool. I do believe however that you have even better sonic experiences of horn speakers to look forward to, or certainly be presented with in the future. That the La Scala’s brought you closer to this realization, not least in light of your formerly expressed hatred almost of horn sound, I find very promising. Please let us know of any future horn-speaker expositions, should they occur. Not least be aware of whether these are all-horns or hybrids.. |
"...as the sound and the visual gives me the complete experience, this is why I opt for big ESL's. " I have both Martin Logans and Vandersteen 2's in two different rooms in the house and the ESLs don't even come close to the image accuracy I get from the Vandersteens at "normal" listening distances. They do image better if I walk back to the end of the room, roughly 30' away. Otherwise every instrument even the singer is exaggerated in size. Same experience when I briefly owned Magnepans. My back-horn loaded single drivers upstairs have better image specificity than both but at the expense of lesser bass and only in a smaller room and at lower listening levels. |
Here is Steve Guttenberg on "Here’s why horn speakers sound better than other types" JBL and Klipsch fans, rejoice. From his Audiophiliac YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=txRsNmMGWZo |
