How cheap can you go and still be happy with the sound?

I have a pair of Q Acoustics M20s. I bought them because I had seen reviews about how remarkably good they sounded. They were not expensive by today's standards, a pair of 2-way ported active speakers for about $500. I connected them to a streamer and DAC and they sounded very nice. Were they as good as a pair of my passive standmounts and a good sub using a good preamp and amp? No. Did I think they sounded bad because of the difference? No. I take pleasure in how well the speakers perform especially considering their low cost. I hope I never get to a place in this hobby where I can't enjoy a system because I know that a different group of components might sound better. That would be just as bad as not being able to enjoy a good meal at a cheap restaurant because I might have had a better meal somewhere else.

When I started my audio journey, dealer had me listen to some Monitor Audio silver. But then I found out he had some gold’s upstairs. Hhhmmm, wondered how THOSE sounded.

I knew I was I trouble .  .    .        .           .                               .                                .                               .                                                   .                                                             .                                                                        .

We agree. I’m just making the general point that while you can’t really get a true giant killer system for relatively little money like 5k, you can for a bit more and there’s not much need to spend 100k when you can get so close for 1/4 the cost.

I got a pair of mint/new but open box Perlisten r7t towers at 40% off list, and a brand new Hegel 390 at 35% off list. And for not a ton of $ (in high end audio terms) I feel like I have a true high end system approximately as sonically good as many systems that would cost 5x as much. 

I think it’s impossible to get 100k, very high end system sound with 5k. But you can get maybe 75-85% of the way there. That last 15% will cost you exponentially more as you near 100%.

I do think however, that you can get 98% of 100k system sound Q for around 25k. For example, a preowned Hegel 590/600, and preowned Perlisten S7T or Boressen X6 towers. IMO you’d need to spend a lot more to get significantly better sound.

@megabyte

A Borresen, Schweikert, etc might kill a 5k or 10k rig, but, i have heard rigs in that price range, which sounded better to me than others in the high end...Mbls, Sonuses, etc.

Sure, the Sonuses or D’Agostinos look real pretty (audio jewelry and prestige pricing), but, i wouldn’t be shocked if someone preferred a rig in some lower range (5k or 10k) purely for sonic reasons over the latter. Not everything in the high end is worth its salt sonically, if the consideration of audio jewelry is discarded, imo/ime.

I have enjoyed this thread.  As it shows where different people are in this hobby.  I don't know if I would use the word cheap as my mission has not been to go cheap.  

I my younger years (60s and 70s).  I purchased and listened to many vinyl records.  One of my first high end (for me) purchases was the Thorens 160 Turntable in 1972.  Then I got married, had kids, had a demanding career, (had to start being an Adult) and vinyl started disappearing.  I packed up the vinyl and the turntable and the focus turned to AV systems and surround sound.  I still listened to music but mostly in the car.

Decades pass, kids are grown and gone, I retire, and I start cleaning out the house.  I find I have several hundred CDs, and rediscover my vinyl and turntable.  I decide I need a 2.1 stereo system.  I set up a room in my basement, repurpose one of AV receivers,  buy a couple of used speakers off Craigs List (AV123 X-Statiks), tune up my Thorens (which still works great), gather up record collections from my peers who are not listening to them anymore, etc.  

Then I start a journey to investigate getting higher end equipment.  I go to High End Audio stores and do a lot of listening.  I start lurking on the Audiogon forums.  I am blown away by how much some people are willing to spend on audio equipment, this is a totally new world to me.  But the most important part of my audio journey was discovering my own needs - fact is I don't SIT STILL and listen to music,  I don't sit in my basement room just to listen to music but I do love having music on when I am doing things.  

Yes, when I hear a high end system in the store using $80K Wilson speakers I can hear the difference - it is amazing sound.  But I realized I don't need that to be happy listening to music.  I probably spend the most time listening to music out on the deck and we know that outdoor acoustics are mostly uncontrollable.  So for me I find spending an exorbitant amount of money for small improvement just is not necessary.  

So I have upgraded my systems to improve the sound but have not spent more than ~$2K as I still get enjoyment out of listening.   I purchased a NAD 388 with Blue Sound module used and replaced the old AV receiver.  It sounds really good, IMO with the X-statiks.  Outdoors I use a Denon DRA-800H 2 channel receiver with Definitive Technologies AW6500 Outdoor speakers.  With these systems I can listen to music and be happy which is the objective for me.  

Sorry for the long post but felt this was a good thread to share my thoughts.

I think it’s impossible to get 100k, very high end system sound with 5k. But you can get maybe 75-85% of the way there. That last 15% will cost you exponentially more as you near 100%. 
 

I do think however, that  you can get 98% of 100k system sound Q  for around 25k. For example, a preowned Hegel 590/600, and preowned Perlisten S7T or Boressen X6 towers. IMO you’d need to spend a lot more to get significantly better sound. 

I think probably you can get very good, if not top notch sound from a good pair of powered speakers, streaming from your favorite service.  

There's plenty of cheap stuff out there that's good. You just have to search for it.I love it when a speaker company puts out speakers for thousands of dollars and then you read reviews that they suck and aren't worth the money. I just don't have 100,000 to spend,never did...and I won't buy new movie releases for 140 dollars. I seach and look to find cheap albums and cds...there out there....

I just give all the money I have and more

Got my sone a system:

Schiit Modi - $100

Sony Integrated Amp - $200

Pioneer SP BS22 Denis Murphy (I live near him) modded speakers - $165

Parts Express 10 in sealed sub. - $75 on sale

DIY high pass filter for the Pioneers wired into zip cord speaker cables - $10

The system is amazing for the $$ and really great on vocals.

A couple of reviewers talking about high-end gear that sounded lousy and budget gear that sounded better.

All that glitters ain't gold

Funny because I heard a blue tooth speaker that sounded  pretty freaking good and a pool party,.The thing only cost $37 bucks.

Ive been upgrading my rigs over decades buying, selling for decades. From humble "hand me down" beginnings I have been through many different modestly priced set ups over the years, I enjoyed them. With each upgrade you realize the increase in performance, as your set up progresses in quality some upgrades have a bigger impact than others. There is a point of diminishing returns or a level at which upgrades do not make as big of an impact because you have reached a point of relatively good performance.

This point of "Good" performance will be different for each audiophiles journey but for me it came when i reached speaker performance of a certain level and that was a pair of old Ohm Walsh 2 (made in the 80's, I bought them in the 2010s) that i dropped off at Ohm to have restored. After hearing them at a friends house i knew i liked their overall character, Omni directional speakers are very life like. I ran my restored Walsh 2's with am inexpensive Denon home theater receiver and i was in heaven. After some time I ended up scoring an old Rotel Solid State integrated from the 90's and that when i hit "Good" performance, the veil was lifted, the bass was controlled the sound stage was wide and deep like ive never felt before in my own environment. Ive moved on from that set up but from that point each upgrade was enjoyable but did not have as big of am impact.

In short, you can have an enjoyable rig for less than $1,000 bucks.

@gigabit, agreed on phase and phasing proper, which ought to be easy; one needs to ensure that any sub being run is in phase as well.  Any sub worth calling it one should have a switch to reverse such....

Tweeter heights should automatically be the same unless a disparate speaker array is underway.....odd to note, but I've not experienced everything in all circumstances, either...🤷‍♂️

The 1/4" distance comment is a bit daunting for any species to pull off, however.

My cats can do that, but I'm not so motionless.  I suspect I'm not alone at that, but can stand to be corrected....
If one has the cinderblock chair with a molded seat, back, and head restraint could make that work....straps optional, I hope....🤞

"The house is on fire!"

This Opus is nearly complete! I'll be outside in a moment!

Not-So-Famous Last Review/BBQ Division.....

I’m surprised that setup has not been a much larger part of this thread. It makes a huge difference in even the least expensive system. Make sure the speakers are wired in-phase, that each is exactly the same distance from your ears (like within a quarter inch) and ensure that the tweeters are at the same height above the floor as your ears when in your listening seat. You may well be amazed how good even a cheap all-in-one system can sound. 
 

In my experience of more than 50 years, setup is the most often overlooked part of entry-level audio systems. 

@immatthewj ....and I will basically agree on some levels of the pursuit of the 1% (and narrowing) 'level of perfection achievable currently'...

Given ones' level of 'a proper space/venue' for ones' equipment, the qualities of the played media(s) with the choices of said equipment driven by taste and the depth of ones' credit/cash/or the contingencies of outright theft....Atypical for the bulk of A'gon associates for the latter, no doubt. ;)

Based upon what I've read here and elsewheres'. there would seem to exist almost a variant of an 'event horizon' in terms of the apparent responses of a given set of equipment in a given space occupied by a very special pair of ears that can apprehend what's being experienced..

It would appear that to experience this 'edge of the probable' one will need very deep pockets and a near degree of absolute silence over working towards and achieving this goal to some degree....

Owning ones' own manufacturing facility would be a plus; one that is very profitable to allow the research and the creation of the 'space to play within' ought to be in parallel with the former....

And then...keeping the lid on what you've done.

A Saudi prince would be the most likely suspect to do such.
One just has to be of that societal group to do so.....

I'm certainly not, so I'll just continue to wade through the sludge I tolerate....😏

@immatthewj wrote:

I’ve owned three tube amps (I still own my first one) and the best sounding I ever owned were a pair of monoblocks that could be a bit unreliable so I replaced them, but they were the amps with the highest MSRP.

I own three preamps, and each successive preamp cost more than the last one and each one had sonic characteristics that were distinctly better than the one it replaced.

YMMV, but my experience has been that every increase in sonic performance that I have ever experienced has required an increase in expenditure. To me, that does not seem all that unreasonable.

From my chair the monetary value, as a necessary indicator, is too simple, contingent and crude a measure - indeed misleading. To a point I'd concede price can be factor, until it isn't, and when it all gets mixed up in a complex context of the interdependency of many factors (not to mention subjectivity), things get tricky, and stubbornly trying to maintain price as a measure (for all) to go by is simply missing the bigger picture.

A proper design isn't the really expensive part, nor its proper implementation. Audiophilia on the other hand has a tendency to run amok with wild expenditures in select areas that's more about idiosyncrasies, catering to exclusivity and/or trying to make up for or work around a range of design restrictions. Did I mention cables?

Primary factors however are time, experience, (again) proper design, implementation, adherence to physics (speakers, acoustics and coupling/decoupling), a sense of the holistic/seeing the forest for the trees, an open mind and, dare I say, a sense of anarchistic adventure. The latter is particularly important in the face of PR bullcrap being thrown about, dogma, conservatism, and not to mention the tendency to bow to business and community consensus - including the appeal to authority. 

To reiterate: price can be a factor, until it isn't. From here on there are bigger fish to fry.

...still.....😔

....always seemed to miss out on  having a space that even vaguely sported dimensions that would  be 'kind' to an audio field....

'Applied surround' Walsh speakers of my diy efforts have beckoned as a response (pun not intended, but there it is....), as one is 'IN' the sound field as opposed to 'looking/hearing into it'.....

Think 'acoustic hot tub'... I play about with front v. back pairs, tiny delays between...  Walsh, in and of themselves, don't seem to 'play louder' since they're 360 v. 180 or typically less in dispersion patterns.  If one wants 'loud', add more drivers in quantity and matched qualities....

MHObservations..... Since you've no means to duplicate this, you or any would have to darken my stoop and demand a seat with a view and brew....

...and so far, y'all have avoided this like the Covid.....for which I've had all my shots, and ones' that aren't on the Rx....;)

Fosi stuff....I get their emails, with some intrigue involved..... all mine in mind, but so what's new 'bout that....*s*

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Once upon a evening dearie.....

When the original Tripath chips were intro'd, there was a mfr. that debuted a series of early D amps...both 2 chan and mono's....that could be mounted into a separate chassis (there were 2 sizes of which, I think....'out of memory' in that detail...).

Missed out on that; but since, D has grown into a mini-Godzilla that has begun trampling on 'phile tropes since....and will continue unless extreme measures and measurements of 'beauty kill the beast..."

...beguiling intro...?

....following sea of loud 'n proud...

....from a pointed head rendered blunt..... ;)

That concept of an 'amp farm' has occupied me since, and into the use and application of distribution amps.

Decent enough specs for all but the esoteric 1%.....

6 discrete 2chan amps, each either buss or individual.  Each can be mono'd, or can drive 4 separate speakers....minding the ohms, Holms....:)

Each has L&R level and delay control for the 2nd tier of speakers....

Fronted by both room and signal eq options than absolutely needed, but came with and applied judiciously....

Be interested in your thoughts on the Foci'

Meanwhile....

@waytoomuchstuff.....or SAE or MilSpec for that matter....(got to take a pass on the latter. being 4F....the 'F' not totally being involved, except in regard to the 'potential of activity', the formula for which you are no doubt Very Aware of.... ;)

'CO' waivers at the last minute are a real PIA, regardless of actual 'site issues' (front v. back, that sort of alignments....)

...and fortunately, 'threading' doesn't apply, either....😏

@emergingsoul....replace the tape with rubber bands and a device swap, and I've been there, developed an entire new vocabulary to cope with it..... *wry Grin*

@lubbertp....I've applied the various accoutrements of analog and digital means to more lackluster spaces to overcome their weaknesses and downright in-built flaws (ever have a 10' cube of a space to cope with? 
Hint:  You won't need a sub....you'll feel like you are IN the woofers' enclosure....

Mix a drink without having to stir it....how novel.... 😣

@lubbertp

Remeber, a $50k system sounds crapy in a room with bad accoustics

Gotta love sweeping generalizations and a random number generator.

Many of us don’t have dedicated rooms, but instead have challenging spaces like large open floor plans but somehow manage to create very good sounding systems. Speaker selection plays a huge roll in this.

As to the OPs question: $300 (B&O A1)

Remeber, a $50k system sounds crapy in a room with bad accoustics (almost all rooms have bad acoustics) and a $1k system can sound beautifull in an acousticaly treaded room. To begin with, you have to study your room acoustics, take into account the type of system you want and consider advise on what acoustic treatment you need; then buy whatever you consider an appropiate system for you and you will be thanking me for the rest of your life!

Oh my God, being out in the middle of nowhere with an old radio from RadioShack with the battery cover taped to the plastic back would make me happy.

@chenry

Well stated.  And, correct.  Currently "messing around" with Fosi and WiiM gear at present.  At just over $350 (for the pair), delivers something "enjoyable" to those who have not had the opportunity to get up close and personal with stellar hifi systems.

@asvjerry

"When I met the 'spous' to be, she'd bought a Ford Fiesta hatch, 1st Gen in US trim...  One day, both side by side for a common oil/filter routine...."

Oh yes.  The exchange of fluids remains one of the most enduring dating rituals to this day.  Standard or metric?  Not a factor.

If your experience by choice is exclusive to high-priced and difficult-to-source gear, it is easy to forget how much progress has taken place in audio quality at lower price points in the market. Progress to a level of satisfaction for many may have taken years of listening and equipment experimentation, but nothing stands still at any level, and it is possible that with newer products from newer producers, reaching a level of satisfaction may take much less time and treasure than in the past. It's all good.

Nutz 'n boltz 2:

Prior to Spitfire, owned a 69 EngFord Cortina....new. for cash... longer story as to how I could 'do' 1.978$ out the door and into the endless SoCA streets.

When I met the 'spous' to be, she'd bought a Ford Fiesta hatch, 1st Gen in US trim...  One day, both side by side for a common oil/filter routine....

Same engine, but the Fiesta spoke German backwardsdrawkcab
180 plan flip....but some didn't change, those that stayed the same...

"That which you should Change Early & Often,,,"  Uh huh..."Praktische." 👍

Both stick, fun to drive in their own fashion....both metric....🤷‍♂️

@waytoomuchstuff....ah....*faraway stare (further than the usual space....)*
I remember well the Alpines' and their 'Twin Peaks' taillights....

Those got clipped in the Tigers...."That's why they so Mean" and nobody wanted to change the plugs when the 260 was hot.....

Back when, the convo was on the relation to the 'Q ships" of WW2.....

"Looks innocent enuff...." followed by it handing you yer butt and whatever was left...

No doubt, still fun to drop the mic on the unwary or merely stupid....

Hey, can I be understood if I 'talk Normal'?  (Well, for moi' anyway....)

@asvjerry ... Sunbeam (Tiger/Alpine) = British ≠ metric.  Got lots of 1/4-20 & 1/4-28 bolts holding the windscreen frames, boot and bonnet brackets in place.  Go figure.

@waytoomuchstuff ... Triumph=British=metric;

Although I've no reason to believe that the car had it in for me...

No more than anything else does..

@asvjerry

You rarely disappoint.

Your "tool bounce off" moment was an effective Newtonian physics demonstration. Very impressive!

One question: Was the wrench standard or Metric?

I have a very high end system at home but i did sonos at my cabin. I am very happy with the play 5’s and the sub!!

@waytoomuchstuff... +’something significant’...;)

When banging the rocks together to improve and/or creating (some may say ’cretin-nating’, but they just don’t....."....well, never mind...").

’Something pleasant to move the task along’ covers a lot of my need and desire for ’decent audio’, when involved in a non-audio ’fo-cussed foray’....

DLH ( ’Difficult Listening Hour(s)’ ) is when you’re ready to ’git down ’n In To’ that which taps your toes is a whole different activity....

...esp. when you’re rubbing your forehead from that launched wrench that bounced off a surface and returned with a vengeance....

True story, that....wrenching on a Triumph Spitfire with a cantankerous bolt....

I pick my unintended targets more carefully since...like the object itself v. random uninvolved.... ;)

Here's my home office system under $50:

B&W C201i -- $10 

Onkyo R1 amp -- $ 10

Sony 300-CD changer -- $5

Realistic Lab 430 turntable -- $20

It's mostly used for background music

I found that the dirtier and nastier the task, the more forgiving I am of flaws in audio quality.  Listening to music while cleaning the bugs off the motorhome, for example, does not require a pristine delivery of an audio masterpiece to be a beneficial musical contribution..  Just something more pleasant than standing on a ladder while removing bug guts gets a "pass."  Working on a classic car?  Same rules apply, but  genre also matters.  The laid back sound of California surfer music instrumentals lowers the stress level and reduces the "tool throwing factor" by 50%.

A six-pack of beer - about $8 including tax

I don't that exists in my town. Maybe for $11

For me:

A balmy, early summer’s eve,

My favorite chair on the back deck,

A Sony Walkman CD player (used) - about $20,

A pair of 30 yr. old Bose headphones - $100 (back in 1990),

A six-pack of beer - about $8 including tax

I had a pair of Sony sscs5 speakers for the deck (bought for ~80 dollars on a amazon sale). It was... meh ok. I put the GR research upgrade kit in it, ~300 dollars and it has become a creator of happiness.

Can't do the liquor anymore... but, the Sony does work well with the coffee/cigars on my deck. 

Bose wave radio while washing my car in my garage. Better than nothing or accidentally getting an expensive piece of equipment wet. Happier than nothing. Kind of a trolling conversation though.

I’ve owned three tube amps (I still own my first one) and the best sounding I ever owned were a pair of monoblocks that could be a bit unreliable so I replaced them, but they were the amps with the highest MSRP.

I own three preamps, and each successive preamp cost more than the last one and each one had sonic characteristics that were distinctly better than the one it replaced.

YMMV, but my experience has been that every increase in sonic performance that I have ever experienced has required an increase in expenditure. To me, that does not seem all that unreasonable.

LOL@ the snobs.

The best speakers I bought and enjoy are the JBL J216 speakers paid 40 bucks for them . At a Antique shop . I had speakers over 2 Grand could not compete with those. There efficient and sound fantastic tubes or solid state . Ant cheap tube intergraded amp will be fine . And a Rotel make excellent CD players for the money .

I think you would be surprised at the incredible systems that some people can put together at a reasonable price. 

"Incredible" and "reasonable" are both relative terms.  

I think you would be surprised at the incredible systems that some people can put together at a reasonable price.  Systems that can sound rather magical.  

@immatthewj

+1

nor mine.

The price of your equipment bears little relationship to the sound it may produce

That has not been my experience(s).

Regardless of how much or how little your system costs, as long as it sounds good to YOU, that's all that matters!!!

The price of your equipment bears little relationship to the sound it may produce. While it may be a "general principal" that the more the equipment cost the better it will sound... it... does not mean there are no exceptions - there are many!

I bought a $700 Class D. Audio amp a few years ago (SDS-470C Class D Audio Power Amplifier - 300 watts / channel at 8 ohms), and it drives my $1000 Maggie LRS+ speakers to "audio Nirvana."

That’s about as "cheap" as you can get for great sound! Though, I am using a Bryston BDP & BDA as the source.

You can get pretty great sound for not a lot of $ these days. Maybe THIS is the Golden Age.

It's really hard to say, there are some great affordable pieces of gear out there and they're getting better and better as time goes on.  I would be happy with a $5000 integrated and a $3000 - $5000 set of speakers.  I'd get a decent streaming DAC and call it a day.  Maybe another $1000 - $2000 for that.

What I've woken up to is that I have accumulated a number of mid-tier gear that had I just saved my money, I could have bought a higher-end piece.  Then again, it's hard to know what you like or don't like unless you try a lot of things.  Thank God for used gear - at least I can sell this stuff without much loss.

 

Wiim Amp and Klipsch Rp600M speakers work very well in the garage.