I am a huge fan of Floyd Toole, but in general he seems to not consider affordable bass traps as solutions. He kind of alludes to this: Short of hiring an acoustical consultant, and being willing to rearrange the furniture and possibly rebuild the walls, what can be done? So his entire solution space is outside of this possibility, which may be a choice based on who they expect their customers to be. Other, more modern acousticians have written with the presumption that bass traps are an option and they don’t throw up their hands quite as easily to the problem. Once we allow for bass traps, things get much better for subs and EQs, and it is from this perspective that I often challenge the DBA cultists. A well integrated single sub, in a well treated room, including bass traps performs really amazingly well. Two subs is better. Best, E |
Avanti,
Having two subs is a great advantage to achieving a balanced sound if you have limited room to position them.
This is what I was waiting for. Unless you have a dedicated audio room, I don't, there are definite limitations to most all rooms. My system is in my living room. I simply can't put subwoofers where they might sound best. I'm confined to placing my sub next to one of my main speakers. Avanti, so your thesis is, buy a second sub and place next to the other speaker and enjoy the music.
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I get exactly that effect using only one sub in my bedroom system. You are getting a just sample of what’s going on down there, you are drawing conclusions about the Roger Waters track with regards to hearing it with two L and R subs, it’s obvious. Because if you did you wouldn’t be saying what you just said. I done the a/b with 1 mono vs 2 in stereo. And my subs are at 50hz 4th order, and the difference is huge. Anyone who mono’s their bass below 100hz is ruining many albums that have been recorded in stereo down there. It may not matter to the vinyl crew so much because they’re lucky to get 10db of channel separation down that low from their phono cartridges, so they are basically listening to mono anyway. |
Let me give you a practical example-
In my 2-channel setup I basically have only two small areas where my left and right subwoofers will fit- so positional flexibility is very limited.
I recently measured the response of each sub during my integration process. The left sub had a dropoff below 30 Hz and small peaks above 60 Hz. The right sub was flat down to 20Hz but lacking some impact.
When both playing together the response is smooth and flat at my listening spot, sounds exciting, deep, dynamic and smooth.
Having two subs is a great advantage to achieving a balanced sound if you have limited room to position them. |
EG: Just listen to the second last track "It’s A Miracle" on Roger
Waters "Amused to Death" at the end there is a kettle drum roll that
rolls around the room on the ground from right to left and back again.
If you had just one sub it would ruin that mesmerizing effect totally. This statement is misleading. I get exactly that effect using only one sub in my bedroom system. The issue is that below about 80Hz in most rooms, the ear cannot distinguish where the bass is coming from because it cannot detect a sound until the entire waveform has passed by the ear. In most rooms at about 80Hz, the waveform is so long that it has bounced off of the rear wall and is already passing the ear in the other direction before the waveform has completely passed the ear on its way to that rear wall! It is harmonics of bass instruments like the string bass, bass drum, tympani and the like that convince you that the sound is emanating from in front of you and whether it is to the left or the right. So a single sub works, 2 subs better, 3 better than that and beyond 4 you're at the point of diminishing return. It is important however to make sure that bass information is coming from both main channels to the sub system! However this is only true if the sub or subs do not attract attention to themselves and to do that they can't put out anything above about 80Hz. If they do, now the subs have to be time-aligned with your main speakers and its a royal pain in the rear and at that point a DBA doesn't work. So as a general rule, make sure your sub never ever goes over 80Hz. |
markj941 OP
How does adding a second subwoofer improve your systems SQ? Amazingly so! because bass is done in stereo on more albums than you think. People that use one subwoofer have no idea that they’re screwing up any stereo imaging that the bass has. You need two subs L & R close to the mains if you are to faithfully reproduce what the studio recording engineer wants you to hear. I have many albums (CD’s) even from the 80’s 90’s that have <100hz bass notes that come out of either left or right channel. So to mon’ize these recordings into just one mono sub is not what the recording engineer wanted you to hear. EG: Just listen to the second last track "It’s A Miracle" on Roger Waters "Amused to Death" at the end there is a kettle drum roll that rolls around the room on the ground from right to left and back again. If you had just one sub it would ruin that mesmerizing effect totally. And the harmonic structure of bass notes like this above go right up into the midrange Another that comes to mind is Ricky Lee Jones self titled album, it also has tracks where the bass only comes from one channel or alternates Cheers George |
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Please pardon my ignorance, but what is SQ?
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Thank you for the kind words @hilde45
It's hard to tell without measurements, honestly, but before you get to your second subwoofer, the room treatment and EQ could be considered. With 1 sub, and good room treatment, properly set up, it can be magnificent.
A second sub, if you are free to place it anywhere, can certainly compensate for any big nulls, but what if you don't have any, or what if you use an open layout which does not lend itself well to standing waves to begin with?
Best,
E
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@erik_squires Another great post! Really well done, and attractive to boot. I’m wondering if you can tell me what the sonic difference might be if I added a second subwoofer?
The reason that I ask is that in my present set up, my single subwoofer provides enough bass and it is fairly clean and tight. I had to connect the subwoofer to the two mono blocks and that provided a speaker level input into the sub.
Many people have said that I really need to have a second sub woofer but if I were to get another one what would I notice about the sound (assuming that I could place them correctly)? |
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Search DBA, distributed bass array, Geddes, and study posts of noble100, audiokinesis, and millercarbon. Geddes worked out the relevant science and acoustics that is the basic foundation for using multiple subs. Duke as the only current maker of these type systems has by far the greatest technical knowledge and experience. Tim was a fairly early adopter and has posted extensively on just how well the Swarm works. And I myself used their combined knowledge in building my own DBA. https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/8367 Which is how I know the more, the better. |
Calling MC. Dont worry it wont be long. |
With two subs (or more), you often can get more even bass frequency response. You have to be willing to find the best spots for them.
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