If I started referring to those who advocate bass traps as "flat earthers", would I not be discrediting the technology? Same thing when you refer to those who advocate multiple subs as "cultists".
Erik, IF you have a beef with Miller Carbon, THEN you have a beef with Miller Carbon. To extrapolate your dispute with him to everyone who advocates multiple subs is unreasonable and unwise, as it fills your world with perceived enemies.
And let’s not resort to making fun of each other’s names. You have an unfair advantage; your name is instantly cool without even trying to be.
" You’ve stated I’ve attempted to discredit the technology."
No I did not.
I provided TWO quotes wherein you called multi-sub advocates "cultists", and then in a follow-up post I wrote:
You cannot understand the difference between objecting to how people promote a technology to discrediting it, and I guess we’ll have to leave it at that, and this mindless promotion of this take is rather... religious. If you want any proof just go back through the archives and look for Miller Carbon and "Toole" unless that discussion got deleted by the moderator.
How about this, your cadre leaves me the eff alone and behaves themselves and I won’t call them out for what they are? Should I call you something else besides Duke? Maybe supreme speaker? Arch bishop? Duke seems so secular.
@erik_squires, speaking of straw men and/or reading comprehension, you wrote:
" You’ve stated I’ve attempted to discredit the technology."
No I did not.
I provided TWO quotes wherein you called multi-sub advocates "cultists", and then in a follow-up post I wrote:
" Since bass trap advocate Erik Squires is playing the "cultist" card to discredit multi-sub advocates..."
So I never said that you attempted to discredit the technology, only its advocates. Of course if its advocates are "cultists", with everything that word implies (brain-washed, simple-minded, etc.), that doesn’t exactly bode well for the technology, does it?
Regarding your list of three accusations:
It is the easiest thing in the world to make accusations on an internet forum. They cost you nothing and potentially cost the accused a great deal...
Unless you are asked to back up your accusations, because then your credibility is being challenged.
How about this: You stop the name-calling and drive-by accusations and I’ll leave you alone.
Erik, you are fixated on your grievances towards audiophiles who prefer something which is arguably
Man who keeps calling me out upset I reply.
Sadly for you I don’t owe you a debate nor do I do research for free. The proof is in the archives. I don’t even know who "Big Greg" is, but honestly don’t care if he thinks I disdain him, so go find yourself a tin whistle and blow it. I would appreciate it if you’d stop deliberately misreading me to claim things not in recent evidence, then attempt to exhaust me with requests for free research. For some one who claims an advanced degree I’m surprised reading comprehension wasn’t actually taught at your schools.
You’ve stated I’ve attempted to discredit the technology. Nowhere is that in evidence. I, again, clarified. Now you want me to prove the behavior I’m objecting to. Puhleese. I don't play the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man merry go round you seem enamored of here.
I suggest you go hawk your products as much as you want to, and name me only if you want my attention. Capiche?
Erik, you are fixated on your grievances towards audiophiles who prefer something which is arguably "in competition with" your favorite thing (room treatments), and so you interpret their enthusiasm in the worst possible light:
" 1 - Refusal to accept other solutions are possible or more applicable to specific questions by posters."
Really? "REFUSAL to accept other solutions are POSSIBLE"?? Show me Erik. I think you are exaggerating, and even IF one person did that, why the "distaste" for all?
" 2 - Insistence on the swarm being a solution to everything a poster asks about, regardless of application. "Help I have noise on my left channel." 30 seconds later ... "You need a swarm!" "
This is just immature exaggeration. And if not, then show me, Erik!!
" 3 - Lying about what other prominent professionals have stated. "
Show me, Erik! Don’t just make a nebulous accusation of lying, show me!
And while you’re at it, maybe explain to Big Greg why your distaste extends to him, because obviously that is the impression you gave him. Or else make it clear that it doesn’t.
I will grant you this, Erik. You successfully drew me into your squabble.
I'm not having a squabble at all. You said I played a card to discredit a technology and I corrected you. Now you are again taking a curious angle to my very clear and direct statements.
As I have said, I don't care if people chose a swarm or not. I do care how people behave in my environment. Calling out poor social behavior for what it is is not playing a card or discrediting a technology.
I suggest in the future if you'd like to carry on undisturbed that you avoid using my name in vain and I'm sure I'd be leaving you alone.
So it sounds like you’d rather have an internet squabble based on exaggerations, accusations, and maybe even "distaste".
I don’t blame you. That clip I posted kinda makes you want to steer the conversation away from the relative technical merits of bass trapping vs multiple subs, doesn’t it?
In case anyone missed it, just watch for thirty-one seconds, from 37:37 to 38:08 (it’s cued up):
I do care people I interact with do so in a respectful and sincere manner, and this has definitely not been consistently the case around this issue and as a result I have grown a profound distaste for those who promote it.
What's that? Cake and eat it too?
I use a "swarm". I guess that's what it is, I have 4 subwoofers. I encourage people to give it a try. Is that "promoting" it? I guess it is. Why would you have "profound distaste" for me doing that?
I don't have bass traps (I do have some acoustic panels however). I also don't tell people that my way is the "only" or "best" way nor would I or have I told someone that using bass traps can't be effective.
My friend has the best system for bass I've heard, hands down. Two subs. Bass traps. Diffusers. No swarm. It's awesome! To me. Someone else might think it's too much bass. Or not integrated enough. Or whatever. He loves it. I think it sounds amazing. Someone else might have a different impression.
One of the great things about this hobby is that for many aspects of it there are a multitude of ways to achieve the outcome that is "best" for the individual hobbyist.
"Best" being subjective because everyone has different tastes, spaces, and budgets to name a few common variables.
Since bass trap advocate Erik Squires is playing the "cultist" card to discredit multi-sub advocates
@audiokinesis
I’m not discrediting multi subs. I’m discrediting the cultish behavior on the proponents on Audiogon. As I’ve written, it is characterized by:
1 - Refusal to accept other solutions are possible or more applicable to specific questions by posters.
2 - Insistence on the swarm being a solution to everything a poster asks about, regardless of application. "Help I have noise on my left channel." 30 seconds later ... "You need a swarm!"
3 - Lying about what other prominent professionals have stated.
I have no particular interest in whether some one finds the swarm a useful solution in their environment. It’s the cult-like behaviors above I find distasteful, and that you seem to be happy to misstate my position despite how clear it is. I also don’t care if you promote it as a possible solution to the general problem of finding good bass in a system.
I do care people I interact with do so in a respectful and sincere manner, and this has definitely not been consistently the case around this issue and as a result I have grown a profound distaste for those who promote it. I don’t think that’s unfair. Your sentence, quoted above, reaffirms my choices.
That would be the way to go, you wouldn’t have different left and right main speakers.
And don’t run them of the "sub output" if using a HT amp, set the programing to "no sub" and set your left and right mains to large and get the signal for your subs from left and right main pre-outputs
Sunshine in Sydney, our water out of the tap is one of the best anywhere, very drinkable and better than nearly all bottled water, better than the stuff you have coming out your tap.
Maybe I am, maybe I am not, maybe I am just here to trigger the Pet Audio Rock dude. The universe is so complex, perhaps we will never know will we. Just remember, my words are but a conduit to aid you in making yourself look less relevant than I ever could.
By the way, your moniker is eerily similar to roberttcan, another pseudo skeptic here a couple years ago. Any relation? As in the same person! This is too weird! 😩
You know when the Pet Audio Rock dude responds to your posts with ad-nauseum posts that have nothing to do with the topic and carry no relevant content that you must be doing something right.
George,
In my professional world, when you do something and get results that differ from people who have spent extensive research time on a topic, the normal inclination is to assume you have done something wrong, or assume there is something in your setup that you are detecting, that was not what you intended to measure. In this case, a low distortion microphone setup could probably reveal what was wrong, but I don't see an indication you have done that. If you are not willing to consider that something is wrong in your setup, then you are unable to fix it.
You have many contacts among the lumberjacks To get you facts when someone attacks your imagination But nobody has any respect, anyway they already expect you to all give a check To tax-deductible charity organizations
Ah, you’ve been with the professors and they’ve all liked your looks With great lawyers you have discussed lepers and crooks You’ve been through all of F. Scott Fitzgerald’s books You’re very well-read, it’s well-known But something is happening here and you don’t know what it is Do you, Mr. Jones?
25+ years of acoustics with personal contacts with many of the leading people in the field, a bunch of peer reviewed papers, a deep understanding of the science of sound, psychoacoustics, and enough interaction with the research community, often helping to design experiments, and well beyond the need to prove anything to anyone in my community.
Half as many as I have, and I don’t really care what you have sunshine. Fact is you benefit greatly from having two L & R subs instead of one mono’ed one. And many others hear the same.
So the left plays for 5 seconds and the right for 5. You still said it took 10 seconds, i.e. one complete cycle.
Yes one cycle, and you have a problem with that, "clean up aisle 4", can’t see the forest for the trees.
I won't be the "looser". 25+ years of acoustics with personal contacts with many of the leading people in the field, a bunch of peer reviewed papers, a deep understanding of the science of sound, psychoacoustics, and enough interaction with the research community, often helping to design experiments, and well beyond the need to prove anything to anyone in my community.
Unfortunately, or fortunately, I care enough about audio that it gets my back up with people who think they know what they are talking about, but have no clue how to even design an experiment, let alone the underlying principles of what they are trying to test, speak with complete conviction and lead other people astray, causing them to waste precious time and hard earned money to achieve inferior results.
While your main seem to be of good quality, the subs are not very good quality. They were inexpensive new, and used are quite low cost. When they say "servo" they don't mean a servo in that their is position feedback on the amplifier, it is just a marketing term essentially for what appears to perhaps be a current feedback output design as opposed to voltage feedback. Odds are the distortion is not insignificant given the cost constraints.
So the left plays for 5 seconds and the right for 5. You still said it took 10 seconds, i.e. one complete cycle. Normally you can tell source location near instantly. You wouldn't have to wait till the switch back to be sure. This is a "really" moment, because it goes back to the difference between actually localizing bass frequencies, and detecting a differential room signature (potentially exacerbated by distortion).
Are you subs placed in close proximity to your mains?
you have easily detected 100Hz bass frequencies in 10 seconds (why not instantly?)
Really?? Because the left plays for 5 sec then the right for 5 seconds, keep doubting and "you’ll be the looser" on this one.
If your eyes were closed, how did you know which was left and which was right, as opposed to just noticing a difference?
Same as you can tell left from right with eyes shut for anything heard.
What speakers/amplifier?
Just search for what I have as my main system It’s the family TV room, HT setup, not my main audio room. Elac FS-249 Marantz SR5014 2 x Yamaha linear amps, servo controlled, YST-SW305 classic subs xover at 60hz.
I know you have convinced yourself you have easily detected 100Hz bass frequencies in 10 seconds (why not instantly?), but no, you have not proved stereo bass, far more likely is that you proved your system has a room signature that varies from left to right, distortion, vibration, etc., hence why it took you 10 seconds, technically two switch-overs, to detect. Proper experiments for things like this are not as easy as they sound, and most people are not set up to do them.
p.s. If your eyes were closed, how did you know which was left and which was right, as opposed to just noticing a difference? Didn't you set up the experiment as randomized left/right, record your results, then check after?
What speakers/amplifier?
All of us with eyes shut could easily detect which side of the room the
100hz sine wave was emitting from within the first left to right change
over in 10sec!!!.
This is proof that digital with it’s over
100db of channel separation will be stereo in the bass to your ears if
produced by the recording engineer, and you’d be surprised just how many
are.
@mike_in_nc wrote: " I thought Erik’s linked essay was useful except for that tack"
Agreed. Erik contributes a great deal of highly useful information and well thought-out ideas. When I'm skimming a thread, I'll stop and read each of his posts.
markj941 OP
Thanks ggc. I just ordered my second sub. Actually, thanks too all that contributed to this discussion. It was informative and at times entertaining.
Good for you, getting the second sub.
I just did an experiment last night with myself my wife and son, where I played an alternating left to right 100hz sine wave for 5 seconds in each channel for a total of a 30sec run only through the L and R active subs, the main speakers amp amp turned off.
All of us with eyes shut could easily detect which side of the room the 100hz sine wave was emitting from within the first left to right change over in 10sec!!!.
This is proof that digital with it’s over 100db of channel separation will be stereo in the bass to your ears if produced by the recording engineer, and you’d be surprised just how many are.
Like I said before, I have many cd’s where you can hear the very low bass from just one side. Another good one is Brian Bromberg’s "Wood" double bass’ist
It’s better to have 2 subwoofers powered individually from left and right channels, "not from the single rca subwoofer output" if using a HT pre or amp.
How is this even a discussion in the audiophile world any more?
- 2 subs is better than 1, due to evening out of peaks and valleys. 4 is better than 2. In a rectangular room, 3 may not be better than 2 (may not be intuitive but trust the math). This works because of inability to localize bass (see below).
- bass traps obviously can help. They also have to be very big to work really well, and the bigger the room, the bigger they need to be due to the frequency of the bass nodes. Small resonant traps also have small bandwidths.
- No matter how much some people will plead, we can't localize bass less than about 120Hz, hence using 80Hz with steep crossovers. There will always be lots of claims this is not true, and in every case this will be a factor of unequal room response between channels, poor sub/main positioning that causes unequal room responses and/or beamed cancellation effects, inadequate slope, or distortion. Don't believe me? You don't have to. There are a plethora of studies done on this (proper ones, not ad-hoc with improper setups). If you choose to ignore them, I can't help you.
- When Toole was talking about the potential for equalization, he was not talking only about frequency, but phase as well (between multiple bass units) for optimization
- If you think massive floor standers with deep bass response are the "ultimate" in reproduction, you either have an acoustically great room with a significant amount of acoustic treatment, and well shaped room at that, or you are misinformed. The position for optimum bass response in a room of two speakers is not going to be the same location for optimum in-room response, imaging, sound-stage, you name it. It sure sells some expensive speakers though, and since the average audio reviewer blathers over anything expensive, from pictures probably has a less than ideal listening room, and almost assuredly knows the bare minimum about acoustics and likely even less about the science of sound, should one be surprised? Most don't even attempt to measure in-room response, let alone direct/reflected energy at the listening position in order to optimize performance and/or provide consistent reviews.
- On the spouse factor, discreet subs are likely to be a better sell than large floor standers in less than optimum locations for bass, SQ, or spouse acceptance.
Whether you believe any of what I wrote or not, does not really matter, people will still pay me to design and implement acoustic spaces and the sound systems in them, and acoustic products that use these and more complex principles (and tools), that are based on science, not conjecture. Many aspects of the perception of sound are subjective. Many aspects are not. You will have an easier time achieving audiophile nirvana when you accept which are which. Reality is a harsh mistress. She's not your mom.
In my experience, bass traps do help, but they help mainly by controlling bass overhang at frequencies above 40 Hz -- and that’s the BIG traps. Trying to even bass response significantly with bass traps is a losing proposition. But in a room that retains bass, they can be useful for sure.
Still, rejecting DBAs because some people are tireless boosters is like rejecting vitamins because some think they cure everything. It is not logical to discard a proven approach because some adherents are obnoxious (not that we have any of them here).
I thought Erik’s linked essay was useful except for that tack. In particular, it pointed out that adding subs is not plug-and-play, if one wants to get good results. Good crossovers, some kind of EQ, and phase matching have been indispensable, when I’ve done it.
Hi markj941, I added a set of REL subs to my system with floor standing speakers and It was a great improvement .Most notable was that the overall soundstage was cleaner and there was a much greater sense of depth. The bass was more authoritive, the details were extended especially in the midrange. Drumskins, toetapping, broken guitar strings, etc. all clearly audible. My system is set up in my livingroom, and I do not have any real room treatments to speak of. I dream of having a dedicated room one day, but the addition of the subs definately elivated my system to the next level.
Mark Knopfler's Private Investigations is also a good comprarable.
You are getting a just sample of what’s going on down there, you are
drawing conclusions about the Roger Waters track with regards to hearing
it with two L and R subs, it’s obvious. Because if you did you wouldn’t
be saying what you just said.
It acts the same way on my main system, which has bandwidth to 20Hz out of the main speakers (Classic Audio Loudspeakers Project T3.3).
It appears that bass traps have their cultists too. The simple fact is they are not always practical. A local customer of mine has been using them for years; I finally got him to try a DBA and it solved his bass issues which he's been fighting for over 20 years. His room is arguably the most treated room I've seen anywhere. He was pretty adamant about how great they were until the DBA showed up. At this point he's running only about 1/5th of what he had before. In my room I simply don't have the space to place them at all, but adding a pair of subs (thus creating a DBA) is easy since they can hide under a couple of tables in the space. No way could I get bass traps to do the same job in my room, and the GF won't stand for it anyway. Science works so much better than myth for solving these problems.
@markj941, good sum summary. i just added two REL t9i to my system and am very happy with the sound. they integrate very well with my large british monitors compared to two other sub brands i tried. an important considesrtion is distance from wall behind them. closer than 8 inches created strong peaks in the response.
I should also note that I have never used digital correction with a point source system. I have to believe that subwoofer integration would be easier and better. Although I thick you could get away with a higher crossover the benefit would be questionable as the woofer in the satellite has a very limited range whereas with a one way ESL the entire frequency band is affected by the long excursions bass requires particularly at volume. When a very low note comes along say 18 Hz at volume you can actually hear the music flutter.
Atmasphere, in general I agree with what you say with point source speakers that are not digitally corrected and time alligned. However when it comes to linear arrays particularly tall ESL dipoles the situation changes somewhat. If the subwoofer system does not want to get loss under the linear array it also has to radiate like a linear array. This requires a driver every 5 feet or so with the line ending at wall boundaries. If the system were on a long wall this might require more than four units. Dipole ESLs just do not do well under 100 Hz. As you mentioned crossing up higher than 80 Hz without digital correction won't work well. You will always know there is a sub woofer down there. But with time and phase alignment you can go up higher. I cross at 125Hz 4th order and unless you open your eyes you would never know there was a separate subwoofer system and because the sub woofers are forming a linear array the relative volume between the subs and satellites does not change with distance. The linear array also minimizes room effects which allows me to do room correction with much less power. The the resulting improvement in performance of the ESLs at volume is imminently noticeable as is the marked improvement in head room. It's like adding a turbocharger to your engine.
After watching the video posted by @audiokinesis I have to say this mirrors my findings. I have gone down the road with numerous acoustic panels, bass traps, and diffusers. I would say the best I tried were from a long defunct company called Eighth Nerve, and the most effective trap was the triangle placed in the ceiling corners. In my system my DIY DBA made the most significant difference (in a bi-amp or tri-amp set up) and I was able to rid myself of a lot of extra stuff hanging on my walls in the process.
Toole didn't throw up his hands in defeat to him the answer was in equalization. I also agree with his assessment that to much absorption leads to an acoustical dead room like a studio, reflections aren't all bad and the lower 300-500 hz is where most problems are unless your speakers are all over the place in the upper area. Multi sub is easier to get the bass equalized but for a single position and enough work one can suffice.
So some of you may be wondering which actually makes the biggest improvement, adding bass traps or adding more subs. Since bass trap advocate Erik Squires is playing the "cultist" card to discredit multi-sub advocates, I’m gonna play one of my cards. It’s an "acoustician" card.
Matt Poes of Poes Acoustics, who doesn’t sell subs but who gets paid to install bass traps, briefly compares his experiences with bass traps vs multiple subs, as far as effectiveness below 80 Hz.
Takes thirty-two seconds to listen to. From 37:37 to 38:09. Click on the link, suffer through the inevitable ad, and it’s already cued up:
@erik_squires , you already posted a link to your blog page where you wrote: " I am no longer a fan of this idea [distributed bass array/muliple subs] due to the fan boys and how cultish they have become. "
And now you post: "... I often challenge the DBA cultists..."
This is starting to look like trolling, Erik.
Maybe you can advocate for your preferred solution without name-calling?
If members here that are pro one sub, and running it off a HT sub output. Forget that single HT preamp sub output, get two subs run both subs from the main L & R preamp outputs You will find if you have two subs and in the HT programming "set the mains for large" with "no sub" picked, then cross the 2 subs in at where your mains fall off, get the phasing and level right ect. Your in for a treat from what can come from active proper stereo setup bass bins. Your mid sized floor standers or large book shelves will have the scale of sound that you only get from big floor standers like Wilson Alexia Max Alex ect.
1. 2 subs load the room better, in many applications
2. bass is supposedly non directional, but in reality, subs have crossovers that 'leak' into higher, directional frequencies... stereo subs put these in L&R space where they belong (moreso)
My four subs are in my living room and only one is visible.They easily tuck behind furniture,the wiring runs along the baseboards.The one that's visible is going to masquerade as a table supporting a plant soon,when it's safe to shop again. Yes Erik there are room treatments too;-)
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