I'm new to Step Up Transformers

So in theory, the factor of insertion of anything shouldn’t improve anything or make anything sound better but in my experience it has at times. For many years, diehard audiophiles used these SUT devices. A very popular SUT is the Altec 4722.  Lots of people had fantastic vinyl setups using this SUT.  If inserting a SUT isn’t a good idea, explain that to the thousands of serious audio that have done it with great results. 

Yes I agree that inserting a capacitor at times in series with a resistor gives a more stable and beneficial result. I’m aware that the resistor is for the preamp to see, but one needs to know the specs of the cartridge to insert the correct value resistor. My friend who owned a recording studio in Manhattan heard my setup and said the same thing you’re saying but he did admit my vinyl sounded fantastic. So did my other friend who listens to lot of Reel to Reel, he owns 15 machines, one of his cost $40,000. And another buddy of mine who has one of the best horn speakers posted on YouTube liked my vinyl very much. Point I’m making, I don’t care what people think on how a system should work. I’ve heard the most complexed systems sound great, and the most simple sound bland.  And then vice versa. This hobby you cannot put on paper and expect great results.  Assembling components together with the correct synergy has worked for me so far. 

In fact many people do not know that proper loading is usually done from a selector switch on the phonostage in which the switch run through a series of resistors. Someone looking to have there preamp get the proper load for their cartridge is a very simple thing. Just look up the spec on the cartridge and insert the proper resistor in the phono input stage of the preamp.

@lowtubes If we are talking about an SUT in the signal chain this is just about guaranteed to not work. But if you enjoy the sound that's fine.

I ran an LP mastering operation and recording studio so I have LPs I recorded. My perspective is thus a bit different; using LPs you recorded make a great reference for really knowing what is going on.

If you weren't referring to an SUT in the quote above, the loading resistor is really for the benefit of the phono section rather than the cartridge. When the cartridge plays it generates RFI (Radio Frequency Interference) which might be as high as 5MHz on account of the inductance of the cartridge being in parallel with the capacitance of the tonearm cable. Some preamps react poorly to that RFI so their designers added a switch to allow you different resistors which detune the resonance that causes the RFI. But if your phono section doesn't care about the RFI its plug and play. 

If you were talking about an SUT above, the capacitance of the tonearm cable and the cable between the SUT and preamp plays a role in the correct loading values (meaning its not something you can just 'look up'). Sometimes the correct load isn't just a resistor but a resistor and capacitor in series.

Yes 30 yrs and I’m still learning. I have many diehard buddies that been in the hobby longer and are great resources. I live in NYC and here we get access to everything with components, tweaks, designers, great audio clubs. 

Only 30 years?

Atmosphere, I’ve been through that already. The loading is correct on my vinyl. In fact many people do not know that proper loading is usually done from a selector switch on the phonostage in which the switch run through a series of resistors. Someone looking to have there preamp get the proper load for their cartridge is a very simple thing. Just look up the spec on the cartridge and insert the proper resistor in the phono input stage of the preamp. I’m way past the stage you talking about. I’m referring to getting the sound that pleases you and the end result that makes your heart happy when you listen to the vinyl playback. This is not something that is done from a technical point. It is something that your ears and heart tell you is right when you hear it. Sampling with SUT’s is only a small but also very involved part of what one can do to find that perfect sound they’ve been searching for. They’re so many variables in this hobby.  Years ago, many people fought the idea that cables don’t make a difference. Today just about every serious audiophile knows they do. And just about every serious audiophile probably has a collection of cables in their inventory. Without me experimenting with various cables my system would never be sounding as good as it does. My system is a mix of Silver and Copper hi end cables. SUT’s not only match the cartridge from a technical point, but they also add their own sound or sonic signature. I have 3 SUT’s that all match my cartridge perfectly, a 1950’s Ampex, 1950’s RCA and a 1950’s Thordarson. The Thordarson in “MY Setup” sounds the best,  most relaxed and natural sounding while still plenty of detail, musical, great bass and nice highs and very transparent and engaging. I’m not recommending any particular brand as I’ve been in this hobby for 30 yrs and know what sounds good in my home may not work in another. This is a very involving hobby. I’m not into the hifi fuses that are on the market now but I will say, I have a $200 Synergistic Research fuse on my $6,000 single end 805 tube amp and it sounds great. A friend let me try the fuse and I purchased it. I’m not into the fuse thing but there is a world there also. This is a crazy hobby with no limits.  

There is no better or worse here. It’s what works out in your system

@lowtubes Actually if you get the loading right you'll find there is 'better' and that the differences between your various SUTs is less than you thought.

Lewn, if just because it may not work for you doesn’t mean it doesn’t work for someone else. They’re  are tons of audiophiles that have a huge inventory of cables, tubes, cartridges as so on with many tweaks. That is because they buy this extra stuff in pursuit of the best sound they can get. 

It sure is an expensive pursuit

@billstevenson you ain't kidding.  I have a VDH current phono stage, and a Corralstone cart.  I'd have to get a quality voltage phono and a quality SUT.  It'll be a long while - dealing with other rabbit holes

It sure is an expensive pursuit.  My Consolidated Silver cost $5,500, my Bob's Devices was $1,200.  I believe the Ortofon is now around $1,800.  To these prices you need to add interconnects.  It is a lot easier, cheaper and cleaner to just buy a good high gain phono stage.  My PS Audio Stellar has that capability which is why I bought it.  In fact it is what I am listening to today in my new system.  It makes more sense to join a club if possible that accommodates member loans/exchanges or at least get togethers to try different SUTs or what not. 

Keep in mind that what you’re proposing, assembling essentially a collection of SUTs so one can experiment with mating to one or several LOMC cartridges in pursuit of a best match, can easily become very expensive, time consuming, and possibly so troublesome as to discourage one from pursuing the hobby at all. Perhaps it works for you, but it’s not tenable for everyone who otherwise wants to use vinyl as a source.

There is no better or worse here. It’s what works out in your system. I’ve heard inexpensive amps outperform expensive amps in a particular setup. So using the MC section of a very good phonostage doesn’t mean it will sound better or worse than using the MM with a SUT. If someone has great synergy with the built in MC then they are fortunate. But if the built in MC isn’t a good sonic balance with the cartridge, a person has a ton of flexibility using the MM section and exploring the many SUT’s available.  In my experience, it works out exceptionally well in getting the correct balance, - detail, dynamics, fullness, transparency, naturalness, etc. 

To me, the real purpose of SUT's is to allow the use of a low output MC cartridge with a MM only phono stage. I recently replaced the McIntosh preamp in my main setup with the new Marantz AV10 processor.  It has terrific specs and very low noise, but it only has a MM phono stage, while the I have a low output MC cartridge on that turntable.  So I bought a SUT so that I could connect directly to the phono input on the Marantz.  It works just as anticipated, but I would not say it is better sounding than using the same table' and cartridge going to the MC input of the McIntosh.  

rmcfee, I’m glad I am able to share my experience with you about SUT’s. Mine journey began when I first purchased a Denon step up for my Denon cartridge. I then picked up a Ortofon and after an expensive active tube based Klimo. From there I started to realize that these things make a difference. I listened to my friends AudioNote and even though it worked great in his system, for mine it was too clean and lacking body. In his setup, it sounded great. I listened to a bunch more till I found around 7 that I liked best for me. Don’t think that because a transformer matches well in someone’s system that it will sound good in yours even if you own the same cartridge. Your system (cables, tonearm, preamp, listening room) is unique and you’ll need to hear it in your system and find the best sounding and matching SUT’s not just for your Cartridge alone, but for the system. If I were you, I would begin with searching on the web what the majority recommend what SUT’s with your cartridge. You might get a few and find them very good, but if you keeping going, eventually you’ll find the one that matches really nice with your system. 

Thanks for this very educational discussion!  

When it comes to hifi hobby, matching the correct stuff together is what creates nice synergy. One might have 2 excellent sounding pieces but they might not sound great together. Exploring external SUT’s is just one of the many unique things people do to get the best performance from their vinyl setup. I own 7 SUT’s and have listened to about 15 different ones in my system. They all sound very different.  I heard some very nice ones but in the end, I settled on a SUT that uses 50’s transformers made by Thordarson. Just like everything in this hobby, there is a world of SUT’s and makers of them out there for you to try. No easy way around this once you open that door. Good luck and you’ll see that they do make a difference. 

"Which SUT are you using with the Hyperion ?

Have you compared many ??"

My current favorite is the Consolidated Silver Wire SUT.  I also have a Bob's Devices.  Both are external and are 10:1.  I also had an internal one in my previous Conrad-Johnson phono stage.  That covers the last 10 years or so.  I've been at this a long time and have had others, Ortofon, for example, Denon too, years ago, but with different cartridges and TT/arm setups that hardly are pertinent today.  I should also mention that for several years now I have settled on Audio Sensibility Statement silver interconnects.  Interconnects in and out are pertinent and consistency is important in evaluating differences.

Do I get a prize when I hit 1,000 comments? 

Maybe a free guided tour of every linear inch of my audio circuitry, perhaps? 

I have a Pro-ject Tube Box DS2, an external phono stage that I run through my tuner line stage on my preamp.

Yeah it’s weird but it works fabulously.

@billstevenson 

Which SUT are you using with the Hyperion ?

Have you compared many ??

Thanks.

My Hyperion is a moving iron cartridge and it decidedly works best with a low gain phono stage, and my preference is to use an SUT in to the MM input of every phono stage I have tried it with. 

@jasonbourne71 Facts. I'm using a .75-meter custom-made phono cable between my SUT and phono.

The Paua is a moving iron cartridge and will work best with a high-gain phono stage - not an SUT.

This is not true.

Whilst I am not a fan of SUTs, it comes down to the quality of the various options and more importantly whether the high gain phono vs SUT-MM phono can provide the optimum gain and LOAD.

Each of the options has its plusses and minuses.

A Zobel network is often used to damp a transformer. But if you change the source impedance, the Zobel network won't be correct.

If you really want it right so the transformer editorializes least, the only way to really know is the procedure at the link I posted earlier.

Actually the best way is to put your cartridge/transformer on a scope and adjust the zobel to minimise ringing. This I would assume is beyond many here.

I actually used the Zesto/Zobel removed from the phono as a test bed - adjusting the zobel for a 40ohm Denon 103D (New) made very little difference to the sound, virtually inaudible, whereas changing the loading was more audible with that transformer ( Jensen ).

The Paua is a moving iron cartridge and will work best with a high-gain phono stage - not an SUT.

@lowtubes : I agree! Different SUT's, like different cartridges, have unique sonic attributes. So experimentation is in order! I have five on hand to try, including a Quicksilver.​​

@chipcalzone : The cables from the SUT into the phono stage should be as short as possible to avoid loading down the transformer secondary. This is something that many users of SUT's are unaware of. My Cotter SUT came with fixed output cables of the proper length. 

The Zesto Andros has the Nobel network included in their circuit, along with loading options designed specifically for that transformer/zobel.

A Zobel network is often used to damp a transformer. But if you change the source impedance, the Zobel network won't be correct.

If you really want it right so the transformer editorializes least, the only way to really know is the procedure at the link I posted earlier.

Hello, I don’t think many people understand your question and what your friend is telling you. I personally own 3 preamps that have excellent phonostages. I own 2 high level, very expensive external phonostages that have MM and MC settings. Both external phonostages have Lundahl transformers to step up the signal for MC cartridges.  The point your friend is making, is to try various other Step up Transformers via the MM section of your phonostage. I personally own 7 or 8 SUT’s and have discovered they all have their own unique sound and it takes time to match the perfect SUT with your cartridge. The more options you have, the better the results will be. If you are happy with the built in MC section of your preamp, then enjoy it but if you want to hear things change in sound, just like changing the cartridge affects the sound dramatically, trying different SUT’s can make the sound better or worse as well. I personally am a fan of options.  

My Zestos offers only 2 load settings that are in the range to suit the Paua (minimum recommended setting of 470 ohms):  400 or 1000 ohms.  I have set it at 1000 at the moment but it requires more listening. 

'I have always preferred the sound of using an SUT into the MM stage vs the built-in MC stage.'

This has generally been my experience too.

In my experience with 4 different phono stages. I have always preferred the sound of using an SUT into the MM stage vs the built-in MC stage. Whether the MC stage has built-in step-up transformers or uses SS for gain, the result is always the same for me, SUT into MM always sounds better to my ears. The only caveat is that you must invest in decent phono interconnects for the SUT. 

I am constantly surprised when others report they hear important differences between two different load resistances, using LOMC or LOMI cartridges, that are numerically very close to each other on a scale of 100 to 47K ohms. Like 725 vs 525 ohms or 800 vs 1000 ohms.

You make too many assumptions.

I agree on the MC that if small changes are audible, as Atmasphere has pointed out, it is more likely that the target phono is reacting.

However it is a different electrical model with a MI such as the Soundsmith.

I ran the Paua through 4 phonos in one afternoon, including the Soundsmith phono, and 3 others, both transformer based inputs and solid state and small changes in loading 700-800-900-1000 ohms were quite audible in all 4 phonos. If I recall correctly all 4 phonos sounded best with the same loading, in my case 800 ohms.

Paua owners please be aware that the Paua has undergone electrical changes through its lifetime, the inductance and other design parameters have changed over time so it pays to experiment - or follow the guidelines by Soundsmith.

But if you read the pdf available at Jensen, you see they recommend a rather complex network of R and C to get correct loading. Almost no one actually does that

You are talking about a Nobel network to dampen any ringing in the transformer.

The Zesto Andros has the Nobel network included in their circuit, along with loading options designed specifically for that transformer/zobel. I know this because I installed an in field factory upgrade on a Zesto Andros a few years ago.

The slight complication here is that the Paua is a moving iron not a moving coil so the behaviour will not be at the same as LOMC's.

Soundsmith can advise on which transformers are appropriate.

As a person who 50 years ago did build a speaker without knowing anything about crossover design (not speaker design because I blindly followed information contained in a magazine article), I’d say Atmasphere has a point. But if you read the pdf available at Jensen, you see they recommend a rather complex network of R and C to get correct loading. Almost no one actually does that in implementing any of the dozens of different SUTs mentioned on this and the many other threads devoted to SUTs. So what do all those reports mean or how should they be interpreted? With more than a grain of salt, I think.

Thanks so much Atmasphere. The Zestos has Jensens (I'm told) in the MC channels. That's great info about SUTs. 

@rmcfee SUTs require proper care and feeding if you want the best out of them.

Transformers transform impedance. So the output impedance is a function of the turns ratio and the source impedance (the cartridge and cables).

If the SUT is insufficiently loaded (load value too high) it will overshoot (ring), which is saying it will make distortion and be bright. If the load is too much (too low an impedance) the transformer will roll off highs. There is an exact value that is called 'critical damping'.

The cartridge itself doesn't care about the loading until the load is very close to the impedance of the cartridge. So your main concern is making sure the transformer is properly loaded (critically damped) so it will sound right. The correct value (which may be a simple resistance or might be a resistance and capacitance in series) varies with the cartridge and to a smaller extent, the tonearm cable.

This is why I prefer a phono section that has enough gain so I don't have to use an SUT; loading SUTs correctly is tricky and beyond the abilities of most audiophiles. I posted the procedure on a different thread recently.

(To take some of the guess work out of this Jensen Transformers has a pdf file that lists all the cartridges they've encountered for use with their SUTs. Unless your phono section uses a Jensen (which would be a good move as Jensens are some of the best available) that pdf doesn't apply to your situation.)

If you don't use the procedure the result is very much like building a loudspeaker from scratch without knowing anything about speaker design. It will certainly play, but sounding right (being neutral) will be up to chance.

I did not try the lower of the gain settings on the MC channel because I assumed that it would be too low.  But I guess it's as easy as flicking a switch to see what happens.  

  I should have thought of that. Duhhh

lewn,

I agree with you.  The higher the number the LOWER the loading.  At low value of resistors (meaning a lot of loading) small numerical changes do matter a lot (like 30 ohms and 50 ohms are quite different), but, once one gets above 150 ohms, there already isn't much loading and it should not matter that much.  The only thing that does matter is where RFI is interfering and overloading the phonostage.  In that case, a small amount of loading may be needed to cure that problem and this should not affect the overall sound.  A friend suffered RFI that we traced to the default setting on his phonostage being 100kohms (essentially no loading); when we went with 1kohm loading, the problem went away.

On many cartridges, I prefer a lower level of loading (high value resistor)  than most people choose for their setup.  This delivers a wide open sound.  Jonathan Carr, the designer of Lyra cartridges said that modern MC cartridges do not need additional loading to tame high frequency resonant peaks because those peaks are primarily in the ultrasonic range.  When loading does improve the sound, it is because those ultrasonic peaks can overload phonostages that don't have enough margins for peak levels.  I don't have that issue myself, probably because my phono stage is a tube unit that doesn't have extended ultrasonic frequency response.

I am constantly surprised when others report they hear important differences between two different load resistances, using LOMC or LOMI cartridges, that are numerically very close to each other on a scale of 100 to 47K ohms. Like 725 vs 525 ohms or 800 vs 1000 ohms. I believe the reports because they’re subjective, but I’m surprised anyway; I don’t hear important differences between such values. In fact I think of loading in terms of logarithmic differences. So i might try 100, 1000, maybe 10,000 ohms and then 47K ohms. If the cartridge permits that array of load Rs, I choose one among them but usually the difference in sonics is not dramatic. Atmasphere points out that one is actually loading the phono stage. Maybe my array of phono stages is less sensitive than some others. One thing I would not do is choose a load resistance lower than recommended. Notice that no maker sets an upper limit on load R. None say not to use 47K ohms.

Have the SS Paua and Hyperion MR cartridges.  SS recommends on a loading above 470 ohms and states that below this level upper frequencies will be rolled off.  My phono is adjustable between 25 ohms and 1750 ohms in 25 ohm increments.  After my Paua was rebuilt a year ago it took a while for it to settle (about 15 hours at least) and initially was not happy with the minimal loading settings above 470 provides.  Ultimately, after a little experimentation and a lot of listening, it now performs best at 725 ohms in my system.  My Hyperion MR loads best at 525 ohms. 

My mistake - I definitely have the PS-1.  The setting I settled on was 200 ohm I believe.   

That's way too low. I would suggest trying at least 400 and check your set up - recheck your VTA, tracking weight etc . The Paua is a very smooth sound, slightly warmer than the more expensive soundsmith's due to the aluminium cantilever. It should not be sounding bright and thin at either 400 or 1000.

Have you tried the two gain settings on the MC input ?

My mistake - I definitely have the PS-1.  The setting I settled on was 200 ohm I believe.   

"Id say wait through 2-3 listening sessions at least one hour each in length, before making any judgement of a new cartridge, and that’s only if you’re very familiar on a long term basis with the phono stage. And even then, cartridges do change over time from new, probably more so than any other piece of gear."

Yes!  This excellent advice is worth repeating for emphasis.  Thanks lewm, well said.

The Zestos model I have is the PS-1 (bottom photo).  

I believe I ended up at 800 ohms (at least for now) and that setting gave a nice airy high end without it getting thin. 

If you have an 800 ohm loading option on the back panel then you probably have the upgraded version Zestro Andros 1.2

I’d say wait through 2-3 listening sessions at least one hour each in length, before making any judgement of a new cartridge, and that’s only if you’re very familiar on a long term basis with the phono stage. And even then, cartridges do change over time from new, probably more so than any other piece of gear.

FWIW, my favorite cartridge is a SoundSmith Hyperion, my SUTs are 10:1, but I also fearlessly interchange a variety of LOMC from Ortofon, AT (the recently introduced AT20 is quite nice), and others.  My philosophy is to try things and listen.  BTW, listen means for a while, not just for a minute or two, maybe at least an hour or more after making a change.  I like to give my ears and mind a chance to adjust to the sound of what I am trying.

The Zestos model I have is the PS-1 (bottom photo).  I did experiment when I got the cart (2 weeks ago) and found 1000 ohms to be too bright and thin. 

   I believe I ended up at 800 ohms (at least for now) and that setting gave a nice airy high end without it getting thin. 

    Lower settings started getting too dark or dull.  But I am told that carts have a break in period so all that could change.

An MI cartridge with a 10 ohm internal resistance like the Paua and some other soundsmith MIs is not comparable to an LOMC with the same internal R, because LOMI cartridges have a MUCH higher inductance, at least 100X to 1000X higher than the LOMC. The inductance adds to the resistance as frequently goes up. Thus the recommendation for a 470 ohm load as a minimum. Dave Slagle mentioned yet another reason for the recommendation. I run MI cartridges with a 1k ohm load, minimum, usually 47K ohms.

is this version yours?

or this earlier version?

In either case, you would use the MC input, and mess with your load options, try 100, try 500, hear any differences, preference, you cannot hurt anything