Is Rap a valid musical form?

@tylermunns + 1

I would guess lots of us have read the writings and seen the footage of people from the ‘50s referring to rock n’ roll as “not a valid form of music,” “lacking in musical merit,” “lacking deep and broad emotional content,” “obscene, vulgar,” “a byproduct of societal decline,” “a contributing factor to juvenile delinquency,” “something that degrades the moral values of our youth,” etc. etc.

Do you see and hear that stuff and feel a combination of pity and delight at the unintentional hilarity of it?

Do those people sound laughably ignorant, petty, and miserable, to a comical degree?

Are you glad that your parents or grandparents were not the people captured on camera saying those things, ultimately used as documentary fodder to be laughed at and mocked by later generations for their preposterous, hateful blather?

Don’t be the 2040 documentary versions of the turds wearing crew cuts and browline glasses embarrassing themselves saying unintentionally hilarious blather like rap is “not a valid form of music…lacks musical merit…lacks deep and broad emotional content, blah, blah blah…”
thusly embarrassing yourself and your grandkids.

You sound exactly like those turds from the ‘50s.

Finally, it’s just f***ing music, man.
You either like it, or you don’t.
It’s not a sociopolitical movement, it’s not a political platform, it’s not a religion, it’s just art. A person is not some demon worthy of chastisement and slander if they don’t like it, and a person does not deserve a pat on the back if they like it, or “gave it a try.”

As long as this zombie thread has been revived 8 months after it's demise, I might as well post again, also.

As my previous posts have made clear, I dislike rap and hip-hop, based purely on what I perceive, musically speaking, as simplistic, lack of instrumental sophistication.

But let me make this clear. From a political point of view, as one of the only outlets African Americans, had to get their word out about how they are mistreated, I support that aspect 100%.

Also, not being knowledgeable, nor a fan of spoken word art forms, I will not judge it from that standpoint.

It's fascinating to see how your perspective on rap and hip-hop music has evolved over time. "To Pimp a Butterfly" by Kendrick Lamar is indeed a critically acclaimed album that has pushed the boundaries of the genre and is often regarded as a masterpiece. Your description of the album's complexity, the interplay between music and lyrics, and the depth of emotion it conveys is a testament to its artistic significance.

Rap and hip-hop, like any genre of music, encompass a wide range of styles and artists, each with their own unique approach and message. It's great that you're open to exploring more of this genre to discover the depth and diversity it offers. Drake, for example, has been known for blending elements of rap, R&B, and unconventional musical forms in his work, which can be quite innovative.

As you continue to explore rap and hip-hop, you may find artists and albums that resonate with you in different ways. Some artists focus more on storytelling, social commentary, or personal experiences, while others emphasize wordplay, rhythm, and flow. It's a genre that constantly evolves and incorporates elements from various musical traditions, making it a rich and dynamic form of expression.

Your willingness to give it a chance and your recognition of the musical and emotional depth within these works are signs of an open-minded approach to music appreciation. Keep exploring, and you might discover more gems within the world of rap and hip-hop that resonate with you on a profound level. It's a genre that has touched the lives of millions and continues to be a powerful voice for self-expression and cultural commentary.

@czarivey you made my day then. Gang Starr was Guru and DJ Premier. Agree that Guru’s Jazzmatazz albums were solid throughout. 

@toro3 , I was quoting GURU Gifted Unlimited Rhyming Universal

Guru's Jazzmatazz albums.

All Arts Matter

RIP Guru

@czarivey are you referencing Guru from Gang Starr??? If yes, this would be next level on Audiogon my friend.

...cause hip-hop, rap music is REAL its musical and cultural expression is based on reality and at the same time JAZZ is real and based on reality...

All Arts Matter

RIP Guru

@larsman 

Bought "Damn" LP from Amazon for $28. 

Listening to the YouTube now. Super interesting and musically terrific. Drama and content!

If only there was no "Us and Them".

@mglik - Alas, I've been watching it all develop over the past 6 or 7 years with a sense of 'deja vu all over again'. I guess 'instructive lessons of history' can go both ways. 😕

Thanks for the tip on Kendrick's 'Damn'! 

@larsman 

The similarities to today are shocking. Cult mentalities. Propaganda.Violence.

And even worse, a propaganda machine unimagined.

On the Rap side, just learned that Kendrick Lemar won the Pulitzer Prize in 2018 for “Damn”. For “capturing the complexity of modern African American life”.

Started to listen to it. Seems like it is even more sophisticated than “To Pimp a Butterfly”. Starts with a narrative statement in normal, non rhythmic voice and evolves from that. 

@mglik + 1 Just finished re-reading 'Rise and Fall of the Third Reich', in fact....

ghasley

So true that there are “material negative societal circumstances”.

So much still and so disturbing. So much so that it is the underlying theme of so much Rap. 
I always thought that Nazi Germany was not unique and that it could happen any time in the U.S. … never imagined that it could manifest so quickly and completely.

70 years ago most Germans believed that their country was made great again.

Protest songs in the 60's, punk rock in the 70's, hip-hop in the 80's and beyond - music has always addressed negative social circumstances; it's a great way of reaching a lot of people.... 

@mglik 

It is sad that there seems to be so much energy of expression devoted to negative societal statements.

Indeed and well said. It is sad that there are material negative societal circumstances.

Now having listened to many Rap artists I feel I can give a more complete evaluation. In general, Rap is not made for audiophiles. Mostly, it is electronically based. Acoustic instruments are mostly absent. Surely, I have heard some pieces that are musically brilliant. However, most are rather mundane and somewhat redundant and boring. Surely, there are words that are interesting but the bulk are still angry and/or confrontational. It is sad that there seems to be so much energy of expression devoted to negative societal statements.

Yes, of course Rap is a valid music form. 

It is, the early stuff ,when political, stories of life, banging, etc were real.

not til late 90’s when it turned to tripe.

krs-1  was cool at DePaul university speach.

long story. 

[I hate Opera, Heavy Metal, Grunge Rock, Post-Romantic Classical, Bebop Jazz, etc.

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

WOW that’s a lot of hate. And the etc. scares me to death.

"Tip toe through the tulips" how about "I like Beer"

How could someone not like "Da Club" or "I know You Want Me", your ears would have to be broke. :-)

Hat on the floor, that’s right. As I slowly walk around the hat to the beat of the music and my faithful dog follows me. I stop! I stomp my foot, TWICE. and we slowly back around the hat to the beat of the music.. OLAY amigo..

Come on dog, time to feed the chickens..

Regards

@holmz

maybe try the group Tool?

I am already a fan of Tool. Not as big a fan as I used to be, but I still like them.

@larsman 

good that you checked it out! But does quality, enjoyable music have to be 'musically complex' or 'sophisticated'? 

It does for me. Obviously, it doesn't have to be for everyone.

I get bored unless music meets most or all of the criteria* I like in music. And it's not like I made a conscious decision to only enjoy complex and sophisticated music. When I was younger, I just found myself listening to more and more complex and sophisticated music, and getting bored with popular, mainstream forms of music.

*my criteria is: very high level of musicianship, complexity, deep and broad levels of emotional and intellectual content, avoidance of 'hooks' and simple to sing along with melodies, avoidance of verse>chorus>bridge song structure, avoidance of receptiveness, 

@larsman

Seems to me that criticizing hip-hop for lack of 'musical creativity' or whatever, is like criticizing a symphony because you don't like tympani - it's not the point of the music. It's about rhythm and words and the rhythm of words....

I don't understand this post.

My criticism of rap and hip-hop is for exactly the reasons you mention. There is so much more to music than rhythm and words.

Why is criticizing rap for it's main attributes not fair game? 

I criticize pop for it's simplistic chord progressions, its repetitiveness, its reliance of a simple hook, its lack of harmonic sophistication. 

And I criticize country and mainstream rock, for much he same reasons. 

@holmz - No seriously, in the earlier days, the band got so tired of everybody equating ’Blondie’ with Debbie that they made up buttons saying ’Blondie Is A Group’....

When the lead singer is a stunner, it is hard to see that there is a group…

Old boss was telling me about his first date with his wife. They were in Santa Barbara and roller blading on the sidewalk. They passed a woman and fellow going the other way, and he said he just about fell over seeing the woman.
The (now) Mrs said, “You don’t see that every day!”
And he said, “I agree.”
She then said, “In fact I have never seen a one legged guy on skate(s).”
He said that he was surprized when he turned around and “shu-nuf” the guy was on one leg.

@holmz - No seriously, in the earlier days, the band got so tired of everybody equating 'Blondie' with Debbie that they made up buttons saying 'Blondie Is A Group'.... 

@simonmoon - good that you checked it out! But does quality, enjoyable music have to be 'musically complex' or 'sophisticated'? 

Personally, that's not what I listen to music for. I've heard way too many 'virtuosos' who do not interest me even a little but cure insomnia for me very reliably! 😁

It's hard for me to care how well or with what sophistication they play their instruments if I don't like the music they play on them. Some music I love is like that; much of it is not. Nothing against it or any other genre; I don't require music to be to my particular taste to consider it good or valid. 

@simonmoon maybe try the group Tool?

@mglik 

As said in my OP, Kendrick Lamar’s “To Pimp a 🦋 Butterfly” is as sophisticated musically as any music I know. The musical themes evolve and develop including a brilliant rhythmic rap and sound effects that create “deep and broad emotional and intellectual content”. If you check it out keep an open mind and judge it in its entirety. I think you will find it interesting if not gripping. In my superficial and introductory dive into Rap, it is firmly in the genre yet unique.

So, over the weekend, I had a chance to listen to most of it. 

jssmith207 did a pretty good run down. 

The sax player, Kamasi Washington, and the bass player, Thundercat, are good players, and I have recordings (non rap) with them, which are quite good.

And while I can say, this album might be creatively a step up from most rap I have heard, it still has all the drawbacks of the genre I have a problem with. Simplistic song structure, unsophisticated harmonies, mediocre musicianship (even though Kamasi and Thundercat play on this album, they don't do anything their skills require), repetitive, etc. Sure, there is some real creativity here, just not in the realm of composition and musicianship. 

Sorry if this sounds insulting, but rap, even this recording, is about as musically simple as music can get. Even, with the various layering, sound effects, and overdubs, etc. 

Seriously, there are genres and subgenres of music, with ridiculously complex time signatures, complex chord progressions (and more than 3 or 4 chords per song), with very little or no repetition, with musicians that have otherworldly levels of musicianship, and they are still able to convey deep and broad levels of emotional and/or intellectual content, even with no lyrics at all. 

@holmz - More than just ’she’ - as the saying goes, ’Blondie is a group’!

Wow, I only saw one person all this time. 😁

I guess the “They” and “them” in this case is noun-verb coherence or agreement, and not political.

Listening to Kendrick’s “M.A.A.D City”. There are comparisons to “To Pimp a Butterfly” but it pales in comparison. So far, it just moves from one musical line to another more like other Rap. However, it does add some spoken dramatic sections.

”Butterfly” evolves the musical lines and sound effects not unlike a form of 20th century Classical. Elements of a composer like John Cage. Don’t misunderstand, Kendrick is firmly Rap but even “M.A.A.D” is even uniquely Kendrick. I enjoy the way he delivers his rap lines in an interesting rhythmic way.

But M.A.A.D., I believe, is the album which set the Billboard record of 400 weeks on the charts. Hearing it now, my opinion is that the less complex composition must be more appealing to the masses. Whereas I was held and interested in “Pimp”, not so much with “M.A.A.D”. 

I like some, but most of what I heard the dudes talking they sound like retards, du, du,du, du. Makes feel like effing myself when I hear those retards sounding dudes.

What's the point of tearing down one musical genre for another?

Remember "every generation throws a hero up the pop charts"?

Rap and Hip-hop speaks to countless millions of people. Just because it does not speak so much to me personally is meaningless. 

I've definitely found some rap/hip-hop that I find very worthwhile-- Kendrick Lamar, Blood Orange, The Internet, A Tribe Called Quest, and others. These are all accomplished artists with seriously formidable musical talents that span decades.

To each his/her/there own.

@holmz - More than just 'she' - as the saying goes, 'Blondie is a group'! 😎 - and Chris Stein writes most of the songs. And Clem Burke is one of the greatest drummers in rock. But yeah, the lyrics in 'Rapture' pay tribute to GM Flash and Fab 5 Freddy, so no surprise there! 

@holmz - Hah! I see so much weird stuff on these forums that I DON'T know that!  🤔  I have no doubt that there are people who think that was the first rap song....I love 'Rapture' - such a haunting melody, and I like Debbie's rap, too! 

There is a channel in Australia called SBS (“Special Broadcasting Service”), which airs all the foreign news, and does translation services. It’s sort of like a combination of PBS and NetFlix. The news shows run most of the day, and the evenings are foreign films. Tour deFrance, Dakar, etc.

They have a sub channel called NITV (“National Indigenous TV”) and show a lot of Canadian and US indigenous and African-American programs.
It was only because I saw the show “The Evolution of HipHop” that I knew that.

She was actually a fan of G.M.Flash and I think some of the other groups in NY, like the Fabulous Five (and Fab 5 Freddy).

@holmz - Hah! I see so much weird stuff on these forums that I DON'T know that!  🤔  I have no doubt that there are people who think that was the first rap song....I love 'Rapture' - such a haunting melody, and I like Debbie's rap, too! 

Is there any rap that doesn't include some sort of vocal? I say vocal instead of words because I've heard of something called "mumble rap." Can "instrumental" rap exist?

@larsman you know he meant the first rap song that was snuck onto the mainstream… (by a blond crackeress.)

Seems to me that criticizing hip-hop for lack of 'musical creativity' or whatever, is like criticizing a symphony because you don't like tympani - it's not the point of the music. It's about rhythm and words and the rhythm of words....

@sounds_real_audio - Uh, no - 'Rapture' was not the first rap song; very, very far from it - it was paying tribute to earlier rappers like Grandmaster Flash...  

Unfortunately yes it is. I just don’t care for it.

What I really don’t like is how it’s jammed down our throats on the various streaming services. Do we really need another rap playlist?  It's to the level also that if god forbid I search for a rap song just once, the logarithms they have then over value rap as a genre I am interested in. 

Valid? Just as much as the spoken world pieces our conductor had us do in college in the ’80s. I liked them as much as I do Rap but to each his/her/thon’s own.

I find Rap quickly boring. Then again, I am always drawn the the music much more than the words in any piece. When I was singing, at least for me, the words conveyed the music.

if everyone liked to listen to the same thing, there would be only one genre and that would be a bad, bad thing.

I love the first rap song,  Some of you might remember.  " Rapture " Blondie

@mglik 

As said in my OP, Kendrick Lamar’s “To Pimp a 🦋 Butterfly” is as sophisticated musically as any music I know. The musical themes evolve and develop including a brilliant rhythmic rap and sound effects that create “deep and broad emotional and intellectual content”. 

I listened to it. I don't hear it. Ignoring the questionable lyrics ...

Wesley's Theory - Sounds like early 70's funk with some simplistic EDM synthesizer added.

King Kunta - More 70's funk. Very repetitive four-chord bass-dominant rhythm. The beat sounds like something from the disco era.

Institutionalized - Fake drums really obvious on this one. Almost no changes on the drum rhythm through the whole song. Very simple keyboards with strange, but not interesting time signature that doesn't fit the rhythm.

These Walls - Here we go with the obvious repetitive fake drums again. The female vocals sound extremely familiar. Expose (the group) maybe? Something from early 80's. Upbeat rhythm is good. Guitar line is extremely familiar too. This song is heavily influenced from something I've heard decades ago, but I can't place the exact song.

u - Decent sax. Repetitive lyrics are irritating. Bass line drags. Weird rap voicing halfway through.

Alright - This is the third song where the sax sounds like a continuation. Again, it's buried in the background. Irritating repetitive lyrics again. Backing chorus adds the flavor this song needs.

For Sale? - Very nice chorus. First song with a more complex bass line. Nice texture added by the synth.

That's enough. Compared to other rap I can see the complexity, but that isn't saying much. There is no technical mastery, except the sax, but technical mastery isn't always needed to make a great song. I don't see compositional complexity either, except for maybe the sax lines and maybe a few of the harmonies.

If we're talking Julliard-approved here and it's considered compositionally complex rap let's compare it to something like 40-year-old Rush - Xanadu. I won't even touch on the technical differences.

I think it's too hard to ask those of us who are used to something like Rush to take a step back and appreciate Lamar. I can appreciate simpler music, but it must be virtuosic, either in technical ability or in composition. But there isn't a bass line on that album I couldn't master in 5 minutes. And I'm not that good. So I just don't see it.

@simonmoon 

As said in my OP, Kendrick Lamar’s “To Pimp a 🦋 Butterfly” is as sophisticated musically as any music I know. The musical themes evolve and develop including a brilliant rhythmic rap and sound effects that create “deep and broad emotional and intellectual content”. If you check it out keep an open mind and judge it in its entirety. I think you will find it interesting if not gripping. In my superficial and introductory dive into Rap, it is firmly in the genre yet unique.

Since I originally posted on this thread, stating my dislike for RAP based entirely on its musical merit, I have listened to most of what has been recommended.

I'd like to say I discovered something I deem of musical merit, but it was not to be.

Still the same simple song structures, lack of a high level of musicianship*, repetitiveness, lack of sophisticated arrangements (especially harmonically), etc.

So, please don't stereotype me as an old guy yelling at people to get off his lawn. That is not me at all. 

My only reason for not liking RAP, is, that it lacks complexity, lacks a high level of musicianship, lacks deep and broad emotional and intellectual content (referring to the music, not the lyrics), it is repetitive, it is too reliant on image and attitude, and not substance (again, referring to musical substance, not lyrical substance). 

@holmz - So selling you my Harbeth speakers would be out of the question then, yes? 😆

Well likely flying through SFO soon, so it seemed good to ask.

I don’t think I will be packing up a TT as luggage though. ;)

@holmz - Heya! No, I've got some speakers and headphones up for sale, but not any TT.... 

I find band Asian Dub Foundation (UK) is phenomenal rap band with big music and arrangements behind. I wish Mac Miller was alive, because I haven't got the chance to see him live.

Style doesn't matter. What matters is whether there's or there isn't music.

@larsman you are not the fellow with the old 240v TT up for sale in SF are you?

@holmz - I was just listening to The Streets a couple of nights ago - his first album, 'Original Pirate Material' is also excellent.... I got to see him perform here in San Francisco about 10 years ago or so...