Is Rap a valid musical form?

Of course it is - It's every bit as 'valid' as any other musical form or genre.

May as well ask if rock music is valid, and I know there are some snobs who think it's not, but I couldn't care less what people like that think about anything. I have no use for arbiters of validity. 

I was in the music business back when Sugarhill Gang's 'Rapper's Delight' came out in 1979, and the genre has been going full on since then - yeah!!! 

And Kendrick Lamar IS pretty awesome, yeah? 

As @larsman said – unquestionably "valid".

And for those interested, here is an excellent documentary that is well worth watching:

Rick Rubin: The Invisibility of Hip Hop's Greatest Producer

Among many other remarkable achievements, Rubin resurrected Johnny Cash's career!

I remember the interview with James Brown. "We started that" He claimed to be the original.

I heard Beethoven was a real heavy underground rapper in his time too. He’d sneak across the border and go to other countries under the name of RhymerHoven. Serious pipes and skills.

The conductor/composer thing was really played up.. He was really a rapper at heart.

I heard the Magna Carta was originally meant to be "Rapped". The French were way ahead of the music curve.

Enjoy.  

I'll stick to Tone Loc, Digital Underground and Last Poets.

It is and it wasn’t always filled with so many colorful adjectives. I worked at a record store for years after high school and saw it grow in popularity. My favorite rap album to this day came out in 1989. De La Soul’s “Three Feet High and Rising”. If you haven’t heard that one you need to give it a try. 

I guess one can say that the world of Hip Hop and Rap is yet another true American art form. 

Beastie Boys - So What’Cha Want 

Crank that SH!T ;-) 

Yes.

How many units sold?

Case closed.

Have checked out the Beastie Boys before. The problem I have with them and most other older Rap is that I find it monotonous. It seems like Rap has evolved into a more complex and engaging experience. Not to overly generalize.

I did start to watch the Rick Rubin doc. I think that I may gain insight into a way to reconcile the difference and relative value of Rap vis a vis Pop, etc.

@mglik - In a way, yes, but being a big reggae fan, when I first heard rap/hip-hop, I was thinking, 'This is like Jamaican toasting', which had been going on since earlier in the 70's, and it was. But it was different too, so I like both!! 

I stand by J. Garcia's comments on this topic, not because I'm m a deadhead (believe me-- I'm not) but because they make sense to me. 

Garcia asserted Rap is not music because it lacks two of the three essential qualities of music-- melody and harmony. In his view, rhythm (the third quality) alone does not constitute "music" and I agree.  

IMO, Rap is most accurately described as a spoken word art, like Slam Poetry.  

BTW, this topic has been done before. 

Garcia asserted Rap is not music because it lacks two of the three essential qualities of music-- melody and harmony. In his view, rhythm (the third quality) alone does not constitute "music" and I agree.  

It's grossly inaccurate to suggest that Rap incorporates rhythm alone. Anyone who asserts that hasn't the slightest idea what they are talking about.

It is true only of some Rap.

Rap is valid form of art that has nothing to do with music. Same applies to most of rock.

Yes it is but I do not care for it except some early hip-hop. 

Sure it is, who's to say any music form isn't valid! I do prefer hip hop to rap, however, like some melodicism in my chosen music.

"It's grossly inaccurate to suggest that Rap incorporates rhythm alone. Anyone who asserts that hasn't the slightest idea what they are talking about.

It is true only of some Rap."

Think this is why I seem to be interested in more contemporary Rap which incorporates musical themes and motifs. To me, then it becomes a more complete musical experience.

C-RAP

😅

Rap is a valid music form. Just like a Big Mac is classified as food.

All kidding aside. I like Latino rap too. Guys like Pitbull and then mix it up with a lively Caribbean flavor, merenque, mombo, steel pans. If that music was playing all the time there no reason not to stay in shape.. Grab the mail lady or man, and dance. Everybody likes that music. Unless you’re weird.. Like sayin’ you don’t like Donna Summers, or the Pointer Sisters.. "I get Excited".

I like it when someone breaks down what rap is or is not. Like saying Ragtime isn’t or Jazz or la-te-da.. My humming has to please me NOT anyone else. The measure of music is not for someone else to determan. The quality however, only by our peers. Everyone else’s opinions are like sands on the beach, One of many, between my toes and the crack of my _____.

Regards

Meanwhile, in some alternate universe, a thread is made asking if classical is a valid form of music.

@whipsaw:

"It's grossly inaccurate to suggest that Rap incorporates rhythm alone. Anyone who asserts that hasn't the slightest idea what they are talking about.

It is true only of some Rap"

You are entirely justified in calling me on my ignorance-- it's always a mistake to try to validate one's subjective tastes via objective arguments.

As a long time fan of other African-American music genres, it's weird to feel as I do about Rap but the Rap I have heard has not elicited any desire to hear more. We each have our esthetic inclinations-- I don't like Big Band, New Country, Hair Metal, or most Pop, either. 

.

@sonic79 + 1

Rap stopped being valid for me when I heard Lord Tariq & Peter Gunz steal (sorry, I mean sample) the bass line from Steely Dan's "Black Cow".

C'mon, it's only 6 notes - you couldn't have come up with something on your own?

I think most rap is noise flavored with trendy vulgarities.  

But this is America and everyone has the right to listen to whatever they want so long as they don't make me listen to it. 

Exactly.

It certainly can't be considered musical by any stretch of the imagination and listening to it with headphones should be compulsory.

As it is there's enough noise pollution without adding more

I'm old, it's not for me.

Watch Blue Note Records - Beyond The Notes.

Outlines the relevance of Jazz in the birth of rap.

Holy moley, I'm 50 and this is the most Boomer post I've read in awhile. How old are you, OP?

Throw on some Whodini or Sugarhill's "Rapper's Delight. That's the OG stuff right there.

I mean, it's okay to say you don't understand hip hop or even like it. But please, spare us some kinda pseudo thinkpiece on how it may or may not be a valid musical art form. I mean, people said a bunch of stupid crap about Elvis not being real music back in the day. This is just another version of that.

Personally, I love myself some old school Young MC (who has an economics degree from USC for those elitists who pay attention to that sort of thing). There's all sorts of great rap/hip hop out there including newer stuff, from Childish Gambino to Post Malone and a whole bunch more.

If you only like "music" you can always throw on some Run DMC/Aerosmith "Walk This Way." :)

Yes it is and there is a lot of rap/hip hop that isn't "angry, offensive or abrasive." Check out De La Soul's "3 Feet High and Rising."

Please not this topic again. 

No. It is a waste of listening time.

@stuartk 

Thanks for your honest re-appraisal.

Yes

I like the story of your journey

(I will come with “5 songs for listening, if you haven’t listened to hip hop”)

I think I'll keep my comments to my self and skip over this one....🙄

I don't like Big Band, New Country, Hair Metal, or most Pop, either. 

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

So is bell ringing in or out?

Picky eater are you? :-)

I like Indian music. Belly dancing competitions. :-)

Regards

No

Sure it is—it just sucks!

Sure it’s a valid musical form. Not a very good one, for me, but still valid.

It’s just one I happen to dislike immensely. While I can appreciate the political messages, especially in the earlier days of rap, the simplistic musical delivery system for those messages, is boring, cliché, repetitive, poorly played, IMO. In other words, it has a very limited musical language.

My criteria for what I consider good musical forms are: very high level of musicianship, musical complexity, deep and broad emotional and intellectual content, avoidance of verse>chorus>bridge song structure, no need for simple hooks.

In other words, almost the complete opposite of rap.

And yes, I have listened to rap many times, in all eras. Every time I mention on music forums why I don’t like it, someone will invariably mention rap that they believe fits some of my criteria. Having an open mind, I will listen to it, and always come away disappointed. It is always simple, repetitive, lacks any real musicianship, etc.

Just to sum up, my dislike for rap is purely based on musical content and merit. No other criteria at all enters my judgement. I also put pop, mainstream rock, punk, disco, country at just a slightly higher level than rap, again due to those criteria I mentioned above.

Fun topic

If music is defined by melody, harmony and rhythm, then somebody needs to go tell Bartok, Schoenberg, Coltrane and Thelonious Monk. Because they didn’t care about any of it ( @stuartk )

(I love the dead, but Jerry Garcia is just a folksinger who got lucky)

Here are five songs to try if you haven’t listened to rap or think you don’t like it. Personally, I think a lot of people forget that a lot of rap is funny, and much of it tongue-in-cheek parody. And many don’t really listen to lyrics - structure, rhyme scheme, meter. They just hear the words. And like any art form, understanding context can assist appreciation

This isn’t a “greatest of all time” list.  It’s just a list of good songs that maybe are accessible to a new-comer, and demonstrate some facet of hip-hop/rap worth that is worth understanding 

1) All Fall Down, Kanye West. May expand your mind on the themes of hip-hop. Btw, Kanye literally changed popular music with this album (College Dropout), reintroducing melody and introspection after some years defined by sampling, and then beats.  Bonus track: Breathe In, Breathe Out. So funny, amazing parody

2) Jay-Z, The Story of OJ. Speaks for itself. A song by a 50 year old man, who has seen every side of America (look up who’s providing the backing vocal sample and what they are singing). Sean Carter understands American history with unflinching clarity

3) Ludacris, Southern Hospitality. First, it’s really funny. Second, grab a pencil and parse the rhyme scheme, scansion, form, alliteration, assonance, etc. Chris Bridges is a very shrewd lyricist

4) Missy Elliot, The Rain. Probably the most influential song ever written by a female hip-hop artist. If someone on the thread understands music theory, please explain to us that rhythm. It might as well have come from Mars, because there wasn’t much like it before. Written by Missy and her childhood friend Tim Mosely (“Timbalad”), now considered one of hip-hop’s greatest producers

The Rain also contains the best use of onomatopoeia in all music, at the beginning of the third verse

5) Warning, Biggie. A fantastic example of storytelling in hip-hop.  The song is a journey. And Biggie’s delivery is a good introduction to the concept of “flow”.  The producer, Osten Harvey, is good enough that Miles Davis asked him to produce for him

@mrskeptic + 1 @atlvalet ​​+1 ​@larsman + 1

@jonwatches1 - 'Jerry Garcia is just a folksinger who got lucky'? That's the funniest thing I've read this year so far! 🤣🤣🤣

And yes, I love the Dead too, but I sure ain't buyin' THAT!

@atlvalet - I'm 70 and totally enjoy hip-hop, rap, punk, post-punk, etc etc. so maybe all 'boomers' ain't the same, yeah? 

@larsman , ok, maybe I said that for a little effect 😂.  But let me remain sacrilegious and point out that John Mayer is a better singer, musician and songwriter than Jerry Garcia, by, like, 1000%. He’s still not Jerry, nor should he want to be

I’m a musical omnivore and really do think there is great art in hip-hop as well.  And, like all music forms, 98% of it will be forgotten in a hundred years. I mean, who remembers what was #2 on the charts in 1723, or whenever Bach finished his cello suites?

@simonmoon , appreciate the thoughtful addition to the conversation

@jonwatches1 - Hah! Nothing wrong with a little old time sacreligion! Dunno what the criteria for 'better' would be, but not for me he ain't - never mind ballpark; not even the same planet! Gimme Jerry 👍, not John Mayer 👎! 😃

Interesting that Bach was 'lost' for about 150 years, including just about all of the 19th century, I believe, before he went on his 'Last Tour'! 

"But let me remain sacrilegious and point out that John Mayer is a better singer, musician and songwriter than Jerry Garcia, by, like, 1000%"

Sure, by all means, point out your OPINION-- we've all got 'em !

@whipsaw:

Hey-- fair's fair-- you were right and I was wrong!  

"If music is defined by melody, harmony and rhythm, then somebody needs to go tell Bartok, Schoenberg, Coltrane and Thelonious Monk. Because they didn’t care about any of it"

Right. Whatever you say, chief. 

@stuartk @larsman - the John Mayer reference could be qualified something like “as an objective/technical matter…”. Trust me, I listen to 100 songs by Jerry for every one by John Mayer (basically, his rendition of “Free Fallin”, which is actually good) (i regret ever bringing up the comparison🤦🏻)

Btw, have you ever read the article “Phish Has Been a Band for Thirty Years Now, and They Have Sucked the Whole Time”? Very funny, even if one is a fan

@stuartk re: above you’re a smart guy, you can do better than that in a conversation - we’re here to share ideas

I am 68. Have been a pro musician for most of my life. 
Thanks for the list of stuff to check out.

Listened to Drake “Scorpion” yesterday. Was disappointed. Especially after my incredible experience with Kendrick. It lacked the complex use of musical themes and sound design… for want of a better phrase. 
And the raw energy was missing. That held my interest and was sincerely emotional. This Drake left me feeling “so what?”.

Will check out the list.
 

@jonwatches1 - that does sound funny; thanks for the tip!! 👍