Is too much power in an amp really a problem?

If You have no hands, to turn the volume down?
And there only 1 single setting? FULL VOLUME or NOTHING?

Then Yes You have a problem.

Otherwise,NO, there is no such thing as "TOO MUCH POWER"

Consttraveler

Thanks. that is interesting. The butler is likewise a nulti ch mono setup in one box... using also leading edge technologies.

Setup and matching is certainly key to getting sound you can truly enjoy... in your room... with your tastes and ears.

Blindjim:

You have asked a couple of times for impressions of the sound of an ICE amp. Here goes; my Wyred-4-Sound with everything listed in my system, sounds CLEAN. I do not hear the amp as a separate component.

Prior to the W4S I was running the Emerald Physics (must be bi-amped) with a Sunfire Cinema Grand and I could hear its' effect (using either current or voltage taps) and I did not like it. It was not bad, it was just not to my liking. Prior to that the Sunfire was driving a pair of Talon Audio Khites and it was vary pleasing to my ear. All other components in my system were the same as listed including the Levinson 380-S pre-amp with its' 0.1 db gain control.

Listening volume level with all of the speakers and amps has remained virtually the same (+/- a couple of db).

My best guess as to why the W4S sounds better to my ears (and better means that I don't hear it), is probably due to the W4S multi-channels being constructed as multiple mono blocks in one container. I could be wrong, as I have made mistakes before. Once I even moved away from Analysis Plus cables, thinking greater cost must mean better sound. Wrong, wrong, wrong! As with the W4S, I do not hear the AP cables, just the recording.

This spring, I had the opportunity to listen to the top of the line offerings from B&W (driven by MacIntosh) and TAD (driven by Bel Canto) resulting in my being very happy with my system. For +/- 25% of the cost of the above speakers, electronics, and cables, I don't have to try to listen "around" or "through" the system to hear the music.

Yesterday I started with Beethoven Piano Concertos, moved to The Beach Boy's Pet Sounds, the Significant Other voted for Rod Stewart, I got a reprieve with a mix of early 70's R&B, and finished with SRV Blues at Sunrise. All of it was clean, clear, and in my living room. Over all, a very nice day with no thoughts of "If I changed amps...."

Best regards,

Dave

Kijanki

yep. Like myself and near everyone else has said at some point... There's watts... and then there's watts!

Hoepfully, Watt this new amp will do will be good enough.

If not I'll do Watt everyone else does that doesn't have either a decent outlet nearby from which to do business and hear things... '.... the Audiogone Shuffle'

Perhaps in the interim, I'll hit that red neck retirement jackpot and get a handful of those Pass xa amps or Rowlands, or such!

Blindjim - watts cost money, you're absolutely right. 100W amp is better than 200W because sound level is about the same and for the same money one can get much better 100W than 200W amp. Power in class D is cheap but not everybody likes the sound.

Answering my own Q as the result of all the input here and elsewhere, I have to say "No. Probably not, if within a reasonable context given system parameters or at least, speaker requirements."

Having some more horse power on tap is a good thing when it comes to the subject of amps, usually. Be it simply plain old watts, or immediately available responsiveness … ala current.

I feel enormous power isn't the primary, ‘end all be all’, consideration. Neither do I don’t feel it’s a bad thing what so ever. I believe it comes down to correctness more than anything else.

Watts, after all, do cost money. Some watts cost a lot more money than some others. Why then over spend, seems to arise as a significant factor in choosing the amp (s) for the speaker nearly as much as the quality of all them watts. Being sought does.

Consequently, IMO, it is as much a question of quality, as it is one of quantity.

The numeric values sort themselves out with respect to speaker needs and amp characteristics and their outputs if both speaker maker and amp maker have been forthright in assigning each their proper specifications.

The qualitative side of the amplifier coin is far, far more vague.

In seeking out a solution for my HT desires/needs (For me, it’s awful hard to see the difference between those two concerns at times), I felt perhaps a digital solution might be best after all.

In pursuing accounts from owners, and online editorials I ran across some interesting new topologies in that area aside from digital (ICE) amps. Keeping in mind availability on the new, and pre-owned front, tried and true designs as well and my own preferences, I’ve decided to give BK Butler a shot at satisfying the multi channel amplification duties for now. Naturally, this might well change but on paper, the TDB 5150 looks like the choice that interests me most and does appear to satisfy my system needs.

The digital amps pointed me towards some new thoughts in multi ch amptechnology, no transformers to speak of, going greener, operational temps, and overall size, which normally aren’t Audio Nut concerns as a rule, but they certainly do apply more and more lately.

Admittedly, I did pursue in spite of these newer notions in amplification some more venerable and proven themes from ATI, Anthem, Parasound, Wyred 4, Rowland, and Odyssey. Choosing to pull the trigger on this ASAP, provided limitations as to choice, so did the actual age of some amp selections, prices too caused some to be disallowed. Integration too was an issue… space too was a concern. Seeking to stay as current as possible brought me to pick between another likewise 3 ch newe, Odyssey amp and an available butler 5150.

Several other aspects of the design are very similar between these two ideas on amplification, and the tube facet of the butler configuration set it on top of the field.

I very much like the Odyssey amp I own, for it’s sound versus it’s price. It does indeed overachieve sonically. The butler and Odyssey use the same Sanken bi polar devices in their output stages, have similar power ratings, operational values, and accordingly run reasonably cool to warm at most…. Add the ‘tube’ element the TDB 5150 design contains and at an attractibve price point, my decision was about made for me… try the tubed gizmo from BK.

So the choice has been made and the unit will begin it’s undertaking in due time. It will also be a single bullet for all five channels rather than splitting up the duties between other amps, thus hopefully adding some greater cohesiveness and tonal symmetry across the sound field. I suppose that counts for something too.

Thanks for all the input, and thoughtful responses posted herein. By the end of the month I should be able to say how well it handles HT amplification responsibilities in my configuration. Hopefully this will become a more than satisfactory addition…. I’ll let you all know for sure.

Bill, my first post in this thread answers your question.

Dave

Dave, using your words, please "come out of your hole" and answer the question.

You already have one foot in your mouth; I'm sure there's room for the other.

Thanks in advance.

Now Dave, don’t let your lack of experience and mid-fi listening skills cloud the issue here. Please stick to the subject matter which you, in fact, initiated.

So, please tell all owners of 93dB speakers reading this thread why they need 1000WPC.

Thanks in advance.

This should be a hoot.

Bill said:

"Truly one of the dumbest statements you'll ever read here."

Hi Bill, I'm glad to see that you crawled back out of your hole. One day you'll remember how to contribute something positive to a discussion. Right now you seem focused on trying to manufacture something negative.

Dave

>>06-06-09: Dcstep
All that said, IME, 93dB sensitivity speakers benefit from 1000 watt amplification<<

Truly one of the dumbest statements you'll ever read here.

Thanks so much K... & G...

The Thor likely isn't going anywhere. It's working great, the remote sensor is entirely exposed and secured now and that was the sole issue with this unit that wasn't up to snuff IMO.

I've yet to hear another pre with comparitive sonics that I could possibly attain... in this lifetime, anyway.

About the only thing I'm considering changing out or to, are the speakers. I might make one more move up from these at some point. Maybe.

Adding another amp such as one of these W4S models kills two birds with one stone... the HT gets a lift, and the 2ch gets some diversity... from time to time.

Naturally this ICE/Digi amp HAS to be a step up from the Odyssey Stratos SE... I suspect it/they will be.

How much of a step up and what sort of change remains, as is usual, the primary variable.

The notion these amps are moderately priced, run time costs too are inexpensive, and as well are not hot in use, isn't hurting either.

The only prob what so ever, is I'm not seeing any preowned ones up for sale, and the better binding posts are another $100 upgrade. Additionally, W4S said the other day another version is about to be out soon which will carry a better esthetic... no mention of interior changes were made though and that'll up the price too I guess.

BlindJim, the W4S appears to have a slightly higher input impedance than the JRDG 102 (60.4KOhms vs 48KOhms). You might as well give W4S a try. Regarding your concerns for volume knob listening position, if you get a pre with a continuously rotating volume control and a fine resolution, e.g. 0.5dB or better, you should be able to raise the volume very gradually even with a more powerful amp like the W4S driving your sensitive speakers. G.

Blindjim - I'm sure there are preamps that won't drive well low input impedance (like 10k) of the power amp but it should be rather sound quality than its level. Assuming high output impedance - let say 1k and input impedance of 10k it will divide signal very little, 0.8dB to be exact.

I tried different jumper position on my Benchmark and the next one (-10dB) gives me best volume knob range but the worst sound (not as crisp and vivid). I checked Benchmarks manual and found that output impedance is the highest at this jumper setting = 1.6k. It should not make any difference with my 0.5m IC since it has only 5pF per foot but it does. I cannot explain it. Amp has 40k input impedance.

I've read reviews of 501 including some of the people who bought it after 201. Sound is pretty much the same but 501 is less congested at higher levels. Hearing scale is logarithmic so there is not much difference for us between 200W and 500W but a lot of difference for the speakers. I remember old concerts when bands used standard 100W Marshall amps and it was pretty loud. Now band like Rolling Stones count power in tens of kilowatts. For their concert in Chicago city had to update stadium electrical grid to provide necessary current.

A lot of power is good for one event but I listen at relatively low volumes most of the time. Lower volume makes for the better sound, at least in my room. My room is acoustically bright and has very tall ceiling. At low volumes I have good imaging and tone balance but at higher volume I start hearing more of an echo (multiple reflections) that before was to low to hear. In addition sound becomes brighter - not good thing in my setup.

Class D has this peculiar thing about listening at low levels that it keeps good sound/composure even at very low levels. My previous class AB amp was loosing highs and bass plus resolution was getting worse. I found this also mentioned in one of class D reviews.

Kijank

I’m pretty sure the relationship between output imp of the preamp & input imp of the amp do play a part in how easy or hard the preamp has to work to supply sufficient gain/amplitude of the signal to the speakers

From the Ten Audio review of the W4S ST 1000 (125wpc @ 8) ….

“The Wyred 4 Sound stereo amplifiers have a completely custom balanced FET input stage that raises the input impedance from 10k Ohms, which is a difficult load for some preamplifiers, to 60.4k Ohms.”

(this article was accomplished with 107db speakers @ 4 ohms)

With appox 1 db steps on the tube pre, and way less sized ones on the HT pre (which BTW has a higher output imp), I’ll likely still worry about the actual amount of control I’ll have with such a combination.. I’d prefer at least a third of the vol range… no less.

I’m also getting the impression an ICE amp with 500 + wpc @ 8 is over kill, given my current and likely future, loudspeakers. As with either circumstance, $$$ does matter too, and there’s no sense in overbuying an amp solely for the security of the power bands generosity with real world applications in mind for it’s use.

As I’m sure through the use of some discretion on my part, and system concerns, more power isn’t so much THE issue as is the sonic signature of the amp and it’s integration with the system… as with either the Dodds or the Odyssey SE, the Sonata’s never appear as if they are running out of gas or seem strained… there good headroom available with either amp… 120wpc or 200 wpc @ 4 ohms, appx.

Both the pre and the receiver also drive a DD 15 when in use, which I’m sure contributes to the input imp amounts for the amps. Currently I can’t reach the 11 AM n position with the 120 wpc tube monos… (that off the 4 ohm taps!) ….and tha’ts way loud! Too loud for any extended listening periods for sure! Comfortable for the next room however.

I think an important aspect here is practical usability. Feasibility and power reserves aside, the bottom line is just how will the amps be used I think. In a setting such as I have, a medium sized room (2600 cu ft.) , moderately high eff speakers, and leaning towards being a mature listener, inordinate amounts of applicable power aren’t the primary focus… or so it appears presently.

If there are any other considerations I am still missing, I’d sure prefer hearing them…

I’d also care to hear from any other ICE amp owners as to the actual sonic signatures of their own installations, comparatively speaking of course.

Thanks much so far… you folks are super.

Blindjim - I have similar problem. My 100W/8 ohm amp is driven by the Benchmark DAC1 used as line stage (volume control). Benchmark allows to adjust gain (jumpers inside) in 10dB steps but for some reason, I can't explain, it affects the sound. The best sound is at 0dB position (loudest - equivalent to nominal 26dB gain) what gives me full power at around 11 o'clock (89dB speakers).

Output/input impedance ratio have nothing to do with the power (very small division). Rowland uses instrumentation amp at the input (THAT1200) providing 40k input impedance, at least on my amp.

Jim, I just checked the manuals. The input impedance of the JRDG 102 is 48KOhms with a 27dB gain. The 250Wpc 201 monoblock has 40KOhms input impedance with user selectable 26db and 32db gain. Have not checked the W4S, but I suspect it's going to be similar to the 201 monos. Seems to me that with your speakers, besides impedance matching, the key may be a pre with moderate gain and very fine granularity on the volume knob. 0.5dB resolution or a little better may work. G.

Macrojack

Thanks as always, for the predominately insightful notes… albeit, 100 wpc isn’t 500 or 550 wpc. I do appreciate the efforts and time though

Kijanki - G-man

One practical part of this all is to have an enjoyable, user friendly exp. Not long ago I had a 250-400 wpc amp, w/26 db gain, and a pre w/23 db gain. I still have the pre…

The outcome with reportedly 89 db 6 ohm nominal’s combo did not allow for sweeping movements of the vol knob. The useable range of the knob became vastly reduced to an arc of around 20% of it’s normal span… or less.

This made for a tad more tedious use. Only little very quick zaps on the remote could be had to adjust the volume, thus very fine, precise sound levels may or may not be had. By the time the vol knob was at 10 am or so, one needed to be outside the home to prevent hearing loss with extensive listening periods. Normally, I’d not get much above the 9-9.30 range routinely.

That past exp while producing some really great sounds, hampered the exp with me always having to worry with getting to the ‘just right’ listening level… and of course, the ever present worry I could somehow nod off and somehow spin the vol up inadvertently some great degree and damage the speakers.

I see some wisdom in having finer control of the vol. Higher powered amps in my past reduced this greatly. I don’t recall getting my vol past 2pm in fact… and that’s a far cry from only being able to move it from 7.30AM to 9-9.30 before it’s very loud, and at 11 it runs you out of the house.

I figure impedance played a part in that scenario too. The BAT amp purported 100K… 50 + 50 on the xlr’s. I was only running RCA via adapters so 50K ??, back then.

The Wyred 4 report 62K roughly. Not sure as to Rowland, with some sort of imp matching device inline with the gain section.

My tube pre is 400 ohm output. My Onkyo Rec … well I’ve no idea but I’ll guess it’s higher by a good bit, given how it and the tube pre act with my SS amp… which may or may not make good sense to compare things that way.

Anyhow, I’d sure like to keep using at least half of the volume dial… not just 10-15% of it. I’ve noticed this vastly more sensitive vol knob action with SS amps having both high imp (100K) and good power, 150 to 250wpc into 8 ohms…. The higher the power the less I can move the volume knob.

Consequently, a 600 or 1000+ wpc into 4 ohm amp does imply a similar circumstance may well prevail again, were such an amp (s) be employed… or does this not reflect high powered ICE amp implementation?

Oshag

Not being the sort that unquestionably takes the notes of any reviewer as golden, I look for supportive comments from other's I trust more... here. Hemce my posted concerns.... duh.

Oh Shucks Macro. . . now my dark secret's out! G.

Spectron - Awesome. Spectron amps deliver a natural and realistic sound for pretty much any genre. Immediately noticalbe are these attributes; transient speed with no overhang - resulting in a tremendous sense of control but in a very natural way, tonal rightness, lack of distortion, transparency - these are some of the descriptors that come to mind. The spectrons never sound cold or uninvolving. I've had the highly-touted Nuforce Ref9s and the Spectron amps sound righter to me. Although I don;t currently own the Musician III MK2 (yet) I do have, among other amps, the original Spectron 1KW (serial#2 John's personal amp)and serial #1 of the Model 10 preamp(a superb preamp) The 1KW, 'old buzzard' that it is, positively kicks the crap out of most amps - and I own or have owned some top amps. It makes me laugh the way people take everything the reviewers say as gospel. Some audio mfrs / press have tried to convince everyone that Class D is not reasdy for prime time. The best Class D amps are really and truly superb - and I do still have excellent hearing. Just listen to some little in-car and in-tv amps and marvel at how good they can sound for such a basic installation. that gentlemen, is Class D.

Kijanki - It appears that I missed your deadline. For next time it would be helpful to know where you are.

Guido - You describe food with the same lascivious glee as Hannibal Lector. That makes me wary of your menu.

Hmmm, looks like my circle of health conscious, Asian-food-loving, Icepower-module-twiddling friends may be greater than the threatened empty set after all.

BTW, Tofoo did not accompany the flat noodles with Tuk Ku choi tonight. . . slivers of tender pork lightly stir-fried with Chinese dried mushrooms of the genus Russula, soya sauce and garlic did instead. Of course, I did perfect my wife's fine preparation with a teaspoon of hot Chinese chili paste for good measure.

Now that all's well with the World. . . back to the music. Ms. Uchida playing Mozart on my 91dB sensitive Vienna Mahlers (V1.5 of course). Amplification courtesy of my 500W per channel Icepower-based. . . oops, but you already know that. (grins!)

G.

PS. Smile people, life's too short for long faces. . .

Macrojack - strange coincidence, I just finished cooking shiitaki mushrooms with beans in sesame oil with ginger and toasted sesame seeds. Can you make it here in next 5-10 min. I will wait.

Yes. Prefer toasted sesame oil.

And I suspect you are aware that most others do not live as you do.

Do you deliver, Guido? I'm not willing to travel.

"people who smoke cigarettes and eat fast food. . . "

hmmm, I may be an anally retentive listener. . . but I do not smoke and do not touch fast food. . . want to share some flat Chinese noodles stir fried with tofoo and Tuk Ku Choy MacroJack? (grins!)

I bought my PC-1 at the same time I bought the Capri and 102. I hooked them all up together. I have never compared them to anything else. I have never listened without the PC-1. The 102 does not see anything below 400 Hz. I have a Perreaux PMF 1850 to drive my woofers from 400 down to around 45 or 50 Hz. My system doesn't reproduce from 20 to 20K. I don't even want to know how loud it can play. I'm quite happy but might someday upgrade to a Continuum 500 or just get my Audio Mirror stuff out of the boxes again.

I don't know what modules are in use or what thinking went into their selection. It amazes me that so much concern is expended over such things by people who smoke cigarettes and eat fast food. Way too much emphasis is put on cosmetics, parts lists and pedigrees and way too little on the passive enjoyment of music. Critcal listening, as so many of you like to call it, is not passive or enjoyable. It is anal and obsessive and just gets in the way. Too many armchair quarterbacks in this game.

I've heard the JRDG Capri/102 driving speakers with "only" 92 dB sensitivity and there was some trouble with too much bloom in the bass. That went away when we upped the power to 500 watts. With 108dB sensitivity I would imagine this combination to be exceptional.

Blindjim was inquiring about lots of power with sensitivity around 93dB. That's a totally different issue vs. speakers with 108dB sensitivity. Yes, I suppose that you could drive them with 1000 watts, but why? It may do no harm, but since watts cost money, all other things being equal, it makes sense to not go overboard with power, once the speakers' needs have been made.

All that said, IME, 93dB sensitivity speakers benefit from 1000 watt amplification. Would 700 watts be sufficient? Maybe so, but after you get past the first 250W, amps seem to come in 250 and 500 watt increments.

Dave

Guido - Both have power supply built-in and connect to mains. 200ASC has switcher while 250ASP has traditional power supply. The strange thing is that there is no large transformer on the module - only something that looks like big choke on EI type square core. I checked block diagram and it shows that they rectify and filter mains and feed it to DC/DC converter. DC/DC converter is a switcher so no matter how you slice it both use switchers. Judging by size 250ASP is a little more robust and it shows in ability to drive lower impedance than 200ASC.

I had opportunity to buy cheap REF1000 from the dealer who was loosing Bel Canto line but was afraid of 1000W with my modest size speakers. On the other hand I don't listen very loud. 200ASC is described as sweeter but 1000ASP is praised to be a little more coherent and focused. The difference is very very small and the main thing is raw power that they deliver. Stronger Mosfets are always slower therefore switching frequency has to be adjusted to avoid losses and bandwidth has to follow. 1000ASP has -3dB bandwidth of 38kHz (8 Ohm load) while 200ASC is rated 60kHz (same load).

Thank you Kijanki, do you mean to say that 200 AS incorporates SMPS on-module, while 250 ASP relies on external PS, which can be traditional as well as switch mode?

Guido - 250ASP uses traditional power supply while 200ASC has SMPS. 250ASP delivers 250W at 1% THD while 200ASC is 230W at the same 1% distortion level. Bel Canto specifies S300 and M300 amps as 300W (200ASC) because it is at 10% THD. I concluded that Rowland is a little bit more mature.

250ASP is still a little stronger where it counts - it can drive 2 Ohm impedance while 200ASC needs 3 Ohms minimum.

I would not pay so much attention to power. In order to listen twice louder one needs 10x more power but changing listening distance by 2 is equal to changing power 4x.
It is therefore very difficult to say how much power is needed. Room size and absorption also plays big role.

Macrojack - do you have PC-1? If so, how did it affect the sound?

Macrojack, have you ever compared the JRDG 102 with the Wired4Sound? They seem to be in the same price range, although they do not use the same modules. The Wired4Sound seems to be based on the ICEpower 250 ASP which delivers 250W over 8 Ohms; The JRDG 102 is based on the apparently newer ICEpower 200 AS, which delivers a more modest 100W per channel over 8 Ohms and is thought to be a little sweeter in the treble than the 250 ASP. Unfortunately I have no direct experience with either amps, and the sound of an amp is even more the product of its design than its underlying componentry, so I can't even venture to guess which one I would prefer. G.

OK, I'm back on track now: amp power is completely speaker dependant. I have Maggies, and like lots of tordial power from Parasound, Bryston, and currently Cary (there are others). I have not really liked the digital amps I have tried, with the notable exception of the Innersound/Sanders Sound ESL amps. For some reason those sound much less dry to me.

I love tube amps for any speaker, of course depending on the speaker they need more or less power. But, power alone doesn't matter, it's more the load the speaker presents. That said, wow, more power is always better, never worse.

After you have thoroughly examined my posting history, please note that I use a Rowland Capri into a dbx Drive Rack and out to a Rowland 102 amplifier driving 108 db horns. I have a slight rushing sound from the dbx. When I bypass it and go straight from the 102 to the horns there is dead silence.

I have owned some kind of Rowland equipment or other since 1979 and have seen steady improvement in performance from every upgrade. During these years I have, of course, owned a lot of other gear concurrently. For reasons of convenience, preference and security, I keep returning to Jeff's stuff.

Despite the warnings that sometimes are issued against Class D, I have found it to be sonically exceptional and very user friendly. I'm quite happy with mine.

Blindjim said:

"...ICE AMPS and their similarities & relationships with real world speakers, mainly in the moderate to high eff arena... 91-93db or greater.

Can a 'lots o watts ICE amp make beautiful music with reasonably high eff loudspeakers?

or should the two never meet?"

Myself and several others that I know really like the Rowland Continuum 500 and/or 312 combined with speakers in this sensitivity range. The 91 to 93 range can actually be quite demanding if you enjoy peak sound pressure levels over 100 dB (think Mahler, etc.).

I think when you get sensitivity of 97dB and above, then I'm wondering if the power is of any use or could it even harm. I haven't tried that so I can't comment directly, but I'm very confident that there is a place for high power with 91-93dB sensitivity.

Dave

Macdadtexas

We paused for some further station identification and a few words on our sponsors.

I apologize for this interuption and now return to the show... (with any luck at all)

...ICE AMPS and their similarities & relationships with real world speakers, mainly in the moderate to high eff arena... 91-93db or greater.

Can a 'lots o watts ICE amp make beautiful music with reasonably high eff loudspeakers?

or should the two never meet?

Hey I was going to answer this thread with some esoteric audio-crap opinion, but now I have forgotten what the thread was about.

So, what are we talking about again??

Thank you Raquel, my PDF of the Mahler review shows "V1.5" in the title and one more in the sidebar on the MasterSet process. One further instance seems to have been elided during final typesetting. It referred to the new ferro-silicon mount of the tweeter as a 1.5 enhancement.

The Price of $12800 is listed. The missing mention of price increase was my bad.

Regretably I did not have an opportunity of comparing v1.0 and 1.5 side by side, hence I decided not to write a comparative review based on a 18 months old memory of an RMAF audition of the 1.0.

Regards, G.

Raquel - I read review and could not find any reference to $9800. It states clearly in product description that it is v1.5 and MSRP is $12800. Are you saying that reviewers have to mention MSRPs of previous versions. For what purpose? Am I missing something?

I did not purchase the "very same equipment" - I own a Coherence II preamp (since 2003), a Cadence phono stage (since 2000), and owned the battery-powered Model 6 monoblocks. I owned the original version of the Mahlers - I do not know which version Guido owns.

Read Guidocorona's contributions to Rowland threads and judge for yourself.

His review of the Vienna Acoustics Mahler in the Absolute Sound was curious because he did not discuss that a new version of the speaker (the "V1.5") was being reviewed and that the price had increased from $9,800 to $12,800. The review:

http://www.avguide.com/review/tested-vienna-acoustics-mahler-v15-loudspeaker

Maybe I should give him the benefit of the doubt and assume that Harry Pearson edited this information out.

Raquel seems to question Guido's motives, yet he has purchased the very same equipment. Is that an endorsement of Guido or of Ill-Will-Bill??

I suspect, like me, Guido likes his Rowland/VA equipment very much. He also wrote about it. Like the rest of us, Guido invested in his own equipment. I personally know that he had no financial interest in Rowland when he wrote those reviews, other than the cost of buying the equipment, which he actually owns.

He's since reviewed Bel Canto and others on loan, but, like most reviewers, he owns his reference equipment and makes comparative reviews in order to provide some value to the reader. I also personally know that he spends a lot of time seeking out other systems to compare with his and listens to other equipment every chance that he gets.

I value his contributions here. Like any contributor, we come to know his likes and dislikes and take them into account when we read his writings. Whether I'm reading Stereophile, Audio Critic, A'gon or TAS, I take those preferences into account when evaluating the information for my own use. Conflict is unavoidable, othewise all reviewers wouldn't love music enough to own their own systems and would switch from one loaner to another month after month in a dismal pursuit of musical nothingness. I want my reviewers to love music, own their own systems and tell me what's in those systems so that I can then consider that as I read their writings.

Dave

Better yet...

How many high powered ICE users here have high eff speakers with dubious impedance loads? Like the sonata IIIs ... 93db & approx. 4 ohms -/+ ?

As much rhetoric is being cast about here with regard to Rowland, it's merits and perhaps some suspicious intents, which I've dismissed completely from my mind, would anyone care to compare any of these Lillyputian Giant killers to other more well known topologies and/or brands of amps by way of sonic diffs?

I should think that would glean certainly myself, and any other's on the digi ICE fence more palpable insights on what to expect.

Like for example: my xxx was as dynamic as my Krell, but sweet as my Carrisa on the top end.

or ... My xxx was as warm and musical as my SET mono's in the mids but far greater slam in the lower regions... etc.

guido, among others here has already seen in this instance anyways, I'll not be diving into a pair of Spectron Musician s, rowland 312s, or BC 500 - 1000 monos, anytime soon.

had I that sort of duckets to spend I'd be looking at Pass' XA 60.5 or 100.5 amps probably first... then the Spectron's & Rowlands thereafter. Maybe.

Thanks eternally.

"Mr. Corona's writings about Rowland on this forum, and his review of the revised Vienna Acoustics Mahler for TAS, are indeed curious"

Raquel - Beauty is in the eye of beerholder. If Mr. Corona likes Rowland's gear let him write about it. I hope you don't suspect some conspiracy here.

Myself, I bought Rowland class D amp based partially on reputation of the company that did not release any other than great products for almost 30 years. I'm writing as well a lot of positives on this forum about Rowland and amp that I enjoy a lot.

If there is no benefit to higher power in any particular user's case, based on preferred listening SPL, room size, speaker efficiency, etc., then no reason to go there.

It will add cost to do a higher power amp well as Raquel relates so the benefits need matter.

A curious thread to the extent that only Larryi has addressed any of the downsides of higher powered amps. An amp with more output devices and higher wattage requires feedback to stabilize the circuit, a bad thing that, for lack of a better description, takes the life and vividness away from the sound. Amps with more output devices, and thus more complex circuits, are also noisier, something that can be audible in high resolution systems. It is often said that the best sounding amp in a particular line of amps is the lowest powered one.

Of course, a high-powered amp can sound better on inefficient speakers because such speakers require current to come alive, but precisely because such speakers have to be paired with high-powered amps featuring feedback, many consider inefficiency in speakers to be a design defect.

Very low-powered amps of course have their drawbacks, too. I run a darTZeel or a 65 watt/channel VAC 70/70 triode tube amp with zero feedback.

On another note, it pains me to endorse anything Audiofeil has written on this thread, but Mr. Corona's writings about Rowland on this forum, and his review of the revised Vienna Acoustics Mahler for TAS, are indeed curious (I have run Rowland gear without interruption since 1993 and owned the original version of Mahlers for six years - I have nothing against this gear and at least with respect to Rowland, stand to benefit from his positive comments if I sell).

Shadorne: Your observation about distortion causing a system to be "perceptively loud" squares with my experience. My recent system change (described above) helped me to appreciate exactly what you are saying. The SD135, which has much greater current reserves than the 150.2 it replaced, allows me to listen at much higher volume levels without the distortion nasties causing listener fatigue. I'm not sure that is why the new amp sounds so much better (smoother, more detailed, more dimensional, etc) but I'm guessing the distortion introduced when the 150.2 was pressed is a contributing factor. Thanks for putting what I'm hearing in such concise terms.

The OHm F-5 speakers in my system are a good example of speaks that benefit from high power and high current with adequate damping based on my experience and all reports.

They are largely omnidirectional, less than 90Db efficient can move a lot of air, and present a challenging low impedance load at some frequencies.

These are some big, powerful, current hungry beasts. They seem to drink however much juice you throw at them. They need this in order to be able to pressurize a larger room to the extent they are capable. More current/power results in increased dynamics and impact.

Its like comparing the sound produced by a drummer that is bearing down hard as he plays versus one that is more politely striking his kit.

Some day hopefully soon, I will throw one of those SOTA Class D monster amps at them. My expectation is that that will take them to a higher level than possible with my current modest 120W/ch amp.

For speaks that are easier to drive however, this might be overkill and perhaps even a bit risky.

For example, in the case of original OHM Fs, which were notoriously sensitive to being overdriven (their achilles heel), you would be more at risk of over driving the speaker and causing permanent damage to the Walsh driver with a modern day monster amp, I would say.

Jim, I think that positive impact of more power is very dependent on the speakers' efficiency and response to damping and power. The first watts loses no importance, but the extra watts are not going to make much difference except with medium and low sensitivity speakers that respond positively to high damping. The extra watts are not there to add volume, but rather to add control. IME, it's pretty easy to hear the positive impact when it's there.

Dave

Sounds exciting Jim, if indeed the Wired4Sound are similar in sonic signature to the current Bel Canto Reference series, they aught to be excellent. I was hoping to hear them last fall at RMAF, but I lost my way and ended up missing the suite. I'll develop better caning technique coming October I hope. In the meantime, keep us posted and let us know your impressions if you get the Wired4Sound devices.

Again… Thanks to everyone who has contributed so far…
Consttraveler, Ptmconsulting, Ericjcabrera, Jaybo, Sprink, Viridian, Shadorne, Dodgealum, Mapman, Kijanki, Markwatkiss, Larryi, Jaymark, Joeylawn36111, Spectron, and Dcstep. I sincerely appreciate it.

To all other’s… thanks. I know you gave it your best shot.

I doubt anyone in this online membership, and pursuing this hobby for any length of time who have had success in parting together a system or 3, won’t have some allegiances, loyalties, fondness, or kind words for the gear they feel made those efforts bare fruit. Add to that many of us here are over the age of twelve acting accordingly as it were, so IMO there is no need to give precautionary notes as to just where one member’s fondness lays. It’s like the sound we strive for, it is too ambiguous and ambitious to define exactly. Nor do I suspect it matters given any veracity propels the statements posted when help is sought. For that matter too, Even dealers well vested experiences and as well intentioned remarks are welcome IMO. Several sellers have already joined in here and I see it as a plus.

There’s really only two sorts of people in this world, the one that spreads happiness and joy where ever they go, and those who spread happiness and joy, when ever they go.

Those with ‘agenda’s’ for or against a product line or other’s, always seem to illuminate more so themselves than those they wish to spotlight, with that self same torch, so to speak.

Personally, I don’t need any such direction or detection. Even for me, spotting a person with less than virtuous motives, or otherwise detractors, isn’t difficult at all.

With most of the music we experience being made in the first 20 wpc or so, the notion of power seems over played at times. This note on how much is being done with so little came as a big surprise to me as I’d never taken the time to actually look at the relationship between power and the sound I heard.

My experience informs me having on hand substantial reserves in that regard are most often beneficial and prove themselves out as an added layer of peace of mind… not to mention a seamless and involving presentation.

As necessary as is power, too much of it can undermine or affect the voice of the audio recreation, as I have seen in the past, once or twice… with a thinly oriented articulated and more often than not sterile depiction of the recording. It can come off flat or lifeless.

Maybe it’s sheer coincidence but when I’ve had rigs where I can only just barely crack the throttle open and the sound is already approaching unbareable levels, I’ve not liked the resultant sound. Conversely, when I’ve been able to ‘get into’ the amps power range a bit more, I’ve been far more pleased.

As I understand it, where the two most important facilities for listening come into play are, the volume knob, and good sense.

Most of the time, I’ll win half that battle. Sometimes, both! Remember, even a blind acorn can find a squirrel!

All the ‘preamps’ at muy disposal have from 0.2 to 1.0 ‘db’ step incremental controls.

With the input here and by talking with a couple makers of these ICE outfitted power plants the primary concerns have been addressed satisfactorily. Now I just gotta plug one in and see for myself.

If John Potis’ review of the Wyred 4 Sound ST 500 ( http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue39/wyred4sound.htm ) is even 90% accurate, that amp will do the job…. Whether or not I like how it sounds in my system (s) is a whole other thread perhaps. Much can be done too to massage a components presentation. So as I have a couple of options for where it will reside ultimately, or for how long, I’m looking forward to giving one of these interesting products a go asap.