Just wondering...

At least some people who design DACs say "No!!" - at least for a modern DAC vs. CD player

which CD player do you have?

But listen for yourself: buy from a place that allows returns and do a blind listening test

I could not tell much difference between a Cambridge Audio DacMagic (original), a Cal Audio CD Player (with PowerBoss), and an Oppo 103.  I did not have a selection of the most revealing test music set up and did not have time to do many hours of listening, but it was clear the difference was not large.

Hello everyone,
Being new to the Forum on Audiogon.
I can contribute a suggestion here.
Schiit Audio has been offering notable somewhat unique DACs.
I have two versions of the Gungnir.
Both sound great to me, lossless files.
The Multibit version is about $1200, new.

" $32K DAC sound that different from a $1K DAC?"

Yes.

mb1audio02,

Exactly, to the (one) word, what I intended to reply.

kalali,

Why would a DAC be any different than amps, preamps, etc.? Do you think that a DAC only has a D-to-A chip inside of it? The quality of power supply, power filtering, power regulation, etc come into play just as much as with analog components and actually even more since there are two power supply circuits to contend with, digital and analog, as well as eliminating jitter and noise from the interface with the transport/music server/etc.

Dave

kalali BTW if you are still looking for a DAC I suggest you check this listing out:
https://www.audiogon.com/listings/da-converters-msb-technology-platinum-link-dac-d-a-converter-1005-...

I came close to buying it because its such a great deal and I love my current dac. No affiliation with the seller just looks like a steal.

Hate to use price as the only differential, but I plunked several thousand for a new DAC (Mytek Manhatten) that even uses the same chips as my old DAC, the Oppo 105.  The comparison isn't close, as the Mytek is the single greatest upgrade my system has ever known.
  It's important that the rest of your system can note a difference if you upgrade.  If you are using computer speakers from Best Buy, you won't be able to tell.

The only reason I had considered DACs in a separate group from the rest of the audio components was based on my assumption that the rate of improvement due to changes in technology is much faster in DACs. That said, I guess the point I should have considered is more relevant to willingness to pay rather than whether a more expensive piece is better than a lesser expensive one. Perhaps the right question to ask is will a very (very) expensive DAC today be equivalent to a moderately priced DAC five years from now.

I've run a Bryston BCD-1 almost since they were first released, a good number of years ago.  Last year I acquired a Schiit Gungnir (and a Cambridge transport) and alternated them in and out the system.  They now reside in my secondary system.  Taking into account the relative prices then and now, and the amount of time that has elapsed, I can only conclude that DACs are not directly comparable to the pace of progress of computers (a la Moore's law).  I have no doubt that one of the good $3K DACs of today would have bested the Bryston, but that's another story...

Welcome! rego

I would like to think that a DAC or CDP costing substantially more than entry -level, performs better (sounds better).

If $32k DAC is enclosed onto the marble chassis, it doesn't mean that it will sound better than one enclosed in metal one.
High End home audio is extremely dishonest business and it's blown like a soap bubble. $32k DAC is more boutique than professional similar to designer boutique wear or shoes. Same applies to everything else in high-end audio.

Hi kalali,

If the question is, "Is an ultra-expensive DAC a good investment considering the rapid advancements in digital technology?" The answer, even among those wealthy enough to afford them, would be a firm "NO" if they continually chase the latest digital technology. Just take a look at the selling prices of past high $$ DACs/digital players. However, many of those owners have no thoughts of "upgrading" their older TOTL players/DACs either, so the VALUE is relative to the period of ownership satisfaction.

If it is your priority to be an early-adopter of digital technology advancements, then it certainly is wise to look to products like Oppo that are relatively inexpensive and hold their value well upon resale. Heck, many owners of the Oppo 103/105 units are already chomping at the bit (pun intended) to "upgrade" to the new 203/205. Why? Because the new model has X times more theoretical processor speed than the last model, even though the budget power supply in the 103/105 limits their sonic performance, not the audio D-to-A section? The just-released 203 model proves the point superbly. Designed to outperform Panasonic, not Esoteric.

However, if you look at some of the best SACD-capable digital players/DACs of the past five years, they still deliver SOTA sound in any real-life audio system. Again, the best models had superior power supply/filtering/regulation that differentiates them sonically from the latest less-expensive models with higher bit rate D-to-A chipsets but lesser power supply quality. Obviously, what makes the newer products superior for those using music servers/laptops/etc as a source is their connectivity flexibility and that is not to be disputed.

Best to you kalali,
Dave

kalali,
For the last 4-5 years I pursued my system upgrades and find that the best sound comes from components and accessories which work well together.  Having said that, I think that having better quality earlier in the process is a good thing, so spending more on a DAC might be better than spending more on the "down line" components.
I had my eyes opened to what a better DAC could do, when I dipped my toe into the "higher end", buying my first SACD player, whose internal DAC made my regular CDs sound better, capturing much more detail than I ever knew was on those CDs.
About two years ago I bought a stand alone DAC (PS Audio DirectStream DAC), and that unit still puts a smile on my face.
As for the price, to say a $32k DAC is "worth the price", only you can make that judgement.
One thing I've found, shopping on Audiogon, is that there are people out there who seem to like to try new things, do so for a few months, then offer them on the site, where you can snag some good values.  I've bought a few things that way, and haven't been disappointed.

IMO - Think, comparable. Your amp(s) and speakers are the foundation of your system. I would get those to the level that you want, and that level should be to the point where you can easily hear differences to whatever else is plugged in. Otherwise, you're playing the game of smoke and mirrors, and wishful thinking. If you're content with your McIntosh amp and speakers, or you think that you're content, then you should hear obvious (big) differences between a $1K Dac and a $32K Dac. If not, then either the $32K Dac is BS, so try something else, or you need to invest in a new amp and/or speakers.
Kenny

" High End home audio is extremely dishonest business and it's blown like a soap bubble."

Only if you don't know what you're doing. If you let someone sell you a 32k dac, you're an idiot. At that level, you need the skills to make the decision yourself, or you have no business buying it to begin with.

Most people that think high end audio is an extremely dishonest business, come to this conclusion because they made bad choices. The term snake oil seems to be a popular label for expensive audio products. But what most people forget about snake oil, is that its relative. Here's an example. A friend of mine who loves music but doesn't know much about the equipment, wanted to upgrade his system and asked me for advice. After looking at his system, I thought a new CD player would be the best place to start, so I lent him one of mine. It was far more expensive than what his current player costs, and he never heard of the brand. He seemed a bit nervous, but I told him to relax. The whole point of me lending him a player was so he doesn't make an expensive mistake.

I said to use the player for a week or so, and report back when he formed an opinion. To make a long story short: Snake oil. He couldn't tell the difference between his player and mine. I was a bit surprised when he told me this so I went over to listen to his system. I had no problem hearing the differences between the 2. 

So, was my expensive CD player that sells for 7x more than my friends really snake oil? I don't think so, but my friend did. The cheap CD player was a Sony 5 disc changer($100), and the expensive one was my Rotel RCD-1072 ($700). In the audiophile world, the Rotel is considered to be one of the best budget CD players of all time. TAS gave it product of the year. Not budget product of the year, but actual product of the year which competes with everything, regardless of price. Its all relative.

Does not cost anywhere near $32K to make a great sounding DAC.

Some of the most highly regarded ones like Benchmark for example cost $1000 or so.

I have an mhdt DAC that is very competitive I picked up for $300 used.

So what do you get for teh extra $$$s?

Good question.

I’ve heard very expensive DCS DACs used in 6 digit systems that were very good indeed but could not say they were really much if any better than the ones most people who care about good sound use. I do not feel I am missing much if anything of real value by not having one.

But like most boutique items its a value judgement and I'm sure some with the $$$s to spend will find their value in pricier DACs to go along with all the rest.

IS Donald Trumps DAC gold plated for example?

mb1audio02

True you need to know what you're doing, but some of us don't and that's where real industry kicks in for mega profits.

That’s where simple math kills all the science behind:
calculate parts + chassis + labor and you’ll get max of $800 for that $32k ’state of art’ advertised piece of home audio playa.
Then you can proudly say weather it’s worth it or not.

What Czairvey said is very true. 

" True you need to know what you're doing, but some of us don't and that's where real industry kicks in for mega profits."

I'm not buying that one. Nobody's forced to buy expensive, high end audio components. There's absolutely no reason why a beginner can't exercise rational behavior when buying gear. If someone tries to sell you something that pulls you out of your comfort zone, for whatever reason, you can always choose to keep the money in your pocket. That applies to everything, not just audio.

" That’s where simple math kills all the science behind:
calculate parts + chassis + labor and you’ll get max of $800 for that $32k ’state of art’ advertised piece of home audio playa.
Then you can proudly say weather it’s worth it or not."

It doesn't matter how difficult the math is, if you don't have the right numbers, the whole thing is irrelevant. As far as parts cost goes, no business will ever let you know what they pay for something. Ever. Its the most fundamental concept that every business owner knows. The second you tell someone what you pay for something, you loose. You can try and make an educated guess, but its still a guess.

That said, parts cost is just scratching the surface. Fixed Op's, labor, length of product development, prototype/waste costs..., all play a factor, and under normal conditions, are almost always more costly than just the parts that go into making the product itself.

Just as a quick example, I have friends that manufacturer audio components. Not DIY. You've seen these products in stores, and have read the reviews. You have absolutely no idea what it takes to start with a concept and go through the design process until it becomes a finished product. These people can be working on just one product for years before its ready to be sold. A lot more goes into all this than the average person would think.

Now, if you want to challenge and debate me on this, that's OK. But before we start investing a lot of time going back and forth, I'm asking you for 1 thing. Pick a dac that you say is hugely overpriced and break down all the costs (direct and indirect), and lay it all out in a way that proves your point.

if you aren't doing blind listening tests you are the rightful prey of the snake oil salesmen

"if you aren't doing blind listening tests you are the rightful prey of the snake oil salesmen"

Even if that were true (and its not), nobody does them. A lot of people talk about DBT's, but I have yet to see one that's of any use. The ones I have seen were done to win arguments, and nothiong more.

kalali as I thought it would quickly the piece I posted is sold.

Price is not a factor in sound obviously.  But depending on any component, there can be significant differences in sonic quality.  To some degree this can be a really big improvement.  Someone mentioned something about profit, yeah make something and sell it and then tell me how much profit you think you will make!  I make DHT DAC & preamps, the parts alone in my DAC are $3K not including the chassis, shipping box, etc.  As mb1audio02 says, " $32K DAC sound that different from a $1K DAC?"  Yes.  So how will my DAC compete 5 years from now?  Good question.  My answer would be I can upgrade my DAC if/when the technology changes.  Second, you'd only find a few DACs that can sound like what I produce, and probably no body has heard a DHT DAC or a DHT preamp.  It is hard to design and build a product and then make a profit.  Every website for each manufacturer says theirs is the best for what ever reason.  You can find a bunch of opinions on all of the audio websites from people about what product is the best and what makes a difference in a system.  You have to try for yourself.  Most people do not have the experience to know what the differences are or what to look for to improve the sound in their system.  And cost also plays a big factor.  I don't have any tricks with my products, just listen and buy if you decide that is what you want.  I can make any component to a price point.  I can also advise you what on what changes or upgrades will get you to the next level.  Most manufacturers don't have the time to do something like that.


randy-11 if you aren't doing blind listening tests you are the rightful prey of the snake oil salesmen

Randy-11, if you have to do a blind listening test with one of my products, and you don't hear a difference within 30 seconds, then don't buy any of my products. 

Also if a $1000 sounds as good as a $30K DAC then don't buy the $30K DAC.  You have to take a look inside at the design to see what's really going on.  Circuit board with the same old chip set?  Or a design that is something special.  Custom wound transformers, power supplies, point-to-point wiring, copper chassis, cap selection, resistor selection, you need to get to understand how a product works and how it can make a sonic improvement.  Once you understand that, you can find products that will make an improvement in your system.

Happy Listening.  

 

Great post, bigkidz. Best wishes for success in your business.

Dave

"  Every established business wants to live on foolish and rich and will apply all possible and impossible tricks to convince."

If you actually believe that, I really don't see how we could have any meaningful conversation. That's a pretty extreme statement, and being a business owner myself, I know that I don't fit your description. You may not believe it, but it is possible for a survive by treating customers right and not playing tricks. 

" I'm not rich, but wealthy and the reason why I am is because I do math the following way: How not to spend much on automobile maintenance, how not to spend much on energy, gas, healthy meals, comfortable quality apparel and certainly home and pro audio! Believe me my profession IS finding right numbers just about for anything around me. I breath with numbers, figure out mind behind each word written or spoken WITH numbers."

I have no doubt that you are very good at whatever you do for a living, numbers or otherwise. But that doesn't mean you can see things better than anyone else. I'm an MBA. I know several people here are engineers. We have some equipment manufacturers as well. And the list goes on.

Anyway, you didn't get the point of my last post. I understand that you are capable of eating healthy, fixing your cars or whatever. I believe you, and don't doubt a word of it. I was trying to say something else. If, for example, you called a company that makes dac's and asked them how much they pay for things like chips, or any other parts that go into the making a product, they won't tell you. And if they do give you a number, 99% chance they're lying. That's just the way it has to be in business. And as a result, you'll never know what they pay for the parts that go into their machines. 

maybe "nobody" does blind listening tests, because "nobody" doesn't understand science

I know quite a few consumers who do them and many manf.s who do

" maybe "nobody" does blind listening tests, because "nobody" doesn't understand science"

Or maybe DBT's aren't necessary to select components and listen to music. 

"I know quite a few consumers who do them and many manf.s who do"

Like I said in my last post, I have yet to see anyone use DBT's in any meaningful way. Your post just reinforces what I'm talking about. You claim to know the science behind all of this, but you can't provide any real info or examples to support your position. Knowing a few people just doesn't cut it. You seem to have an ax to grind here. Maybe you're unhappy because your system is lacking. Why don't you list all of your components and let us help you out. 

I loved the story of the loaned CD player where the friend couldn’t hear the difference, but the owner could.

I think that’s what often involved with tests to see whether or not high res makes a difference. (Of course it could be the system itself that masks the benefits).

Its not the audiophile’s ears that are better, but our brains that have developed to hear and appreciate the subtle nuances that better playback brings.

After an upgrade I sometimes feel like my brain is not developed enough to fully appreciate the benefit of the upgrade/tweek. In time I can hear the benefits with greater contrast.

Recently when switching on/ off my subs for a friend, they thought it was a subtle difference. To my ear it was large and the full bandwidth (only coming in at about 35hz and a steep slope) sounded much more like a musician in the room.

I'm soon going to augment my Ethernet cable for an optical Ethernet isolation section.  I have a feeling the more relaxed nature of the optical (due to isolation from the computers power supply) will reap large benefits that the casual listener would regard as difficult to hear, or subtle at best.  

I'll cast my vote w/emailists on this thread...one notices the subtle differences of a change in one's equipment due to familiarity, having 'trained' oneself to a system response.  In another situation, a 'pedigreed' piece of equipment vs. a Best Buy bargains' performance may not be noticed unless the difference is really obvious to anyone.
IMHO there's an enormous variation in what any individual strives for in their audio tastes.  Some what sonic perfection, others will be pleased with ease of access, still others with something that just simply sounds good or looks the part.
When it comes to DACs and the like, I'm reminded of the 'help files' one sees when chasing a 'bug' in one's computer.  There's an infinite number of ways of combining hardware vs. operating systems vs. loaded software vs. one's habit's of use that it's no surprise to me that 'things don't play well with each other' on a regular basis.  Is there a cure?  No.  Too many variables...  I suspect that's what underlies most of the subjects in these forums.

Perfection will remain between the ears of the beholder.  What goes into those ears will always be subject to what one strives to perceive.
Again, IMHO.  And I'm just as trapped in the amber as y'all.  Viva la difference... ;)
Play on...

I would rather buy used a 5 year old DAC possessing a robust power supply and excellent analog output stage than a new DAC at the same price point. This would be particularily true if using DAC for redbook CD (or files therefrom) playback.

mb1audio02 

I'm B.S. on applied math and statistics. The difference between me and MBA that I shuffle numbers in my head on flight and MBA in computer or calculator.

I know how much all electronic parts worth and therefore I don't need to get this information from manufacturer. The figures I wrote for DAC is very-very maximum of what you can possible think of building. So considering profit and labor DAC can't possibly be more than $5k and for these $5k in pro-audio you get HUGE variety of settings and adjustments and with multiple inputs for integrating more than one digital source. 
If such $32k DAC offers that, than it's actual NEW price is fair to be at or near $5k.

"I would rather buy used a 5 year old DAC possessing a robust power supply and excellent analog output stage than a new DAC at the same price point."

Perfectly stated. 

Best to you mesch,
Dave

" I'm B.S. on applied math and statistics. The difference between me and MBA that I shuffle numbers in my head on flight and MBA in computer or calculator.

I know how much all electronic parts worth and therefore I don't need to get this information from manufacturer. The figures I wrote for DAC is very-very maximum of what you can possible think of building. So considering profit and labor DAC can't possibly be more than $5k and for these $5k in pro-audio you get HUGE variety of settings and adjustments and with multiple inputs for integrating more than one digital source.
If such $32k DAC offers that, than it's actual NEW price is fair to be at or near $5k. "

I'll admit, your method does have some appeal. You get to be right and nobody gets to question you. I'm sure if we could all read your mind, we would be bored with our own.

Parts can be very expensive if one wants to build state of the art. For example,  silver output caps made by Duelund will cost $1000 alone. What about high quality transformers, wire, film power supply caps, silver wire, and on and on. A nice chassis can be very expensive with circuit boards and parts isolated from each other and vibrations. Quality IEC, RCA and other jacks can also cost hundreds. 

Now that is only one part of the cost equation.  What about all the time and testing that went into the DAC? I know of designs that have taken two years. Some take more.  What about all those labor hours? What about the education level and expertise of the designer developed over many years? What is that worth?  I have not even mentioned real business costs beyond parts and R&D design. 

So we have all these costs, high costs, poured into a DAC that will garner the interest of a very small group of potential owners. The cost must be spread out over this small group of future owners. Yes, we can see why SOTA gear including DACS can indeed cost $15,000 -$25,000 after mark-ups etc...

Pro Audio Dacs = True to the source as best they can do 
Hifi dacs = Lets make a dac sound different than neutral 
Lets make a fancy case . Charge even more for this !
Skies the limit on what to charge !
Make it sound silky smooth - Charge even more !

I've been diving deeply into desktop audio & headphone listening for the past 1-2 years. In that connection, I've used 2 DACs that impressed me greatly, albeit for very different reasons:

1 - Peachtree Audio DAC iTx: It may be inexpensive (~$300 list), but this humble little box, complete w/remote control, outperformed every other DAC and/or CD player I've heard over the years. w/o delving into technicalities, let's just say that it sounded more natural, less bright/sibilant, and was altogether more listenable than any other device I've used. It also has great input flexibility, being able to rapidly switch via remote control from USB to optical to coax input. I'm fed it via the coax input, which sounds best to me (courtesy of a Musical Fidelity 192/24 V-Link & Oyaide RCA coax cable--the latter highly recommended).

2 - Audio GD NOS-19: It cost ~$1,000. Audio GD is a Chinese high-end company that gets much love in the headphone community. This DAC is one of 2 resistor ladder (R2-D) units they make. You'll have to do some reading on R2-D DACs, if you're not familiar with the term. My version of their R2-D DAC is non-oversampling (thus "NOS" in the model name), and is easily the best digital I've ever heard--relaxed, natural, analogue-like. Again, I use the coax input, which sounds best.

Both DACs are highly recommended.

By the way, I also own one of Audio GD's "all-in-one" products (combination of preamp, headphone amp, and DAC), the NFB-15.32. It's also very competent and good for what it does...

Note that'll I'll soon upgrade my S/PDIF convertor from the MF unit to a much touted new Chinese unit. This will only matter to those who obtain their signal from a computer via USB.

" Pro Audio Dacs = True to the source as best they can do
Hifi dacs = Lets make a dac sound different than neutral"

Then why don't all pro audio dac's cost and sound the same? Sound quality varies just like dacs for home use. 

What method do you use when determining what dac's come closer to the source than others?

I believe that as far as for home audio, this is as fancy as you can ever go with DACs:
http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/ZodiacPlus
There is also optional external power supply that makes this toy almost twice as pricey. 
Is there any sense to compare sizes of Antelope Audio and size of company that built $32K DAC?  Because size matter -- bigger better.. 

I home auditioned a couple of dacs and ended up buying the Schitt yggy DAC.  For 2399.00 it is far better than any I listens to.  Go to the headfi forum there are 2 threads you can read on for a month. 

Seems the question is this: Given the inevitable improvement in technology, do I go "all-out" on the best possible DAC or get a more reasonably priced DAC and replace more often?
I'll offer some insight based on a conversation I had with a tech at Ayre. His view is their new CODEX ($1800) sounds better than their older QB9 ($2900).  The simple interpretation from that would say that the "reasonable and replace" strategy has merit. 
Having said that I have seen reviews that dispute that SQ statement and reviews that support it. And I fully expect the "Ayre just wants to sell more DACs" comments so have at it. 
As for me, computer based audio technology is moving fast. When I bought my QB9 there was no Roon and no Tidal, and DSD downloads were a gleam in the eye. So, I go with the "reasonable and replace" strategy.  Too bad my definition of "reasonable" isn't a $32k DAC :-) 
And I think mesch is correct in his post. Buying a good used one is the most bang for the buck unless you need the latest bells & whistles. 

Hi
The DAC is really important but I would not spend too much money as there are good examples second hand and also the technology keeps advancing. Ahem, it so happens i have an exaSound e20 DAC Mk3 with femto second clock in mint condition which I was thinking of advertising in the New Year. DACs can be highly influenced by the integrity of the input signal. USB is very common as I am sure you know but you need to pay careful attention to eliminating noise and interference and also make sure your PC or media server has not done some hidden processing on your files. There are also some tricks you can play with CD standard files when a DAC has a 24 bit input that seem to help. For SPDIF I have found the Carver digital lens to be helpful, a bit ancient tech but well worth it at a sensible price. I used one last year with my old Marantz CD12 DAC and it was great on CD material. Carver of course make a modern version built in to the player... but at a price.  

Hi All,

Fairly new here but thought I would share and interesting article from Jim Austin at Stereophile. A little different perspective concerning the more expensive gear.

http://www.stereophile.com/content/living-lamms#MfMTeQmoZrQDuw26.97

I hope this adds to the conversation.

$26k monoblocks sounds more reasonable than $32k DAC, but still too much.

My chagrin regarding your assertions, czarivery, is whether business analysis is the best approach to putting together a superior sounding audio system or is it more experience/understanding of what does and doesn’t make significant sonic improvement.

Personally, I would not purchase a $32k DAC or digital player, not even one much over $5k. Why? Not because of performing a numerical business rationalization of manufacturing cost vs retail price, but rather because, through the act of listening, I and others have determined that there are some excellent sounding players and DACs under $5k. Further, additional money spent on optimizing AC quality and vibration/resonance elimination at the source delivers superior results with these products, delivering sound quality improvement that belies the cost of the DAC/player.

Certainly, one would be insane to buy ultra-expensive equipment of any ilk without first addressing issues with AC quality and vibration/resonance elimination, which equally benefit the $5k gear and the $32k gear.

A Symposium Acoustics Svelte shelf and Rollerblocks will transform the sound quality of any source component beyond that of a significantly more expensive component without them. Addressing AC quality optimization will lower the noise floor and eliminate sonic nasties such that the music is heard without the detriment of what has come to be known as "digititus".

Then, and only then, has one heard what their current source is capable of and able to accurately evaluate the true impact of alternative, more expensive components.

Dave

eis,

That has to be the most stupid "review" ever published by Stereophile. If the guy can’t afford air conditioning, by all means that should be addressed way before considering any audio equipment. How someone like that could become a reviewer for a major audiophile publication is beyond me.

There is a proper hierarchy of life’s pursuits, well represented by Maslow’s concept in his "Hierarchy of Needs", that makes clear the ludicrous nature of seeking self-actualization ahead of satisfying physiological needs. Perhaps an advent of the Milllennial generation?

Dave

Dave, after your response I had to check out the 'review'. I learned more about the reviewers' wife, living conditions, audio budget than the amplifiers. Must have needed to take up some space in that Stereophile issue. Though I am not familiar with Maslow's hierarchy, mine starts with oxygen, avoidance of thermal extremes does play in somewhere down the line. :-)

@eis .. thanks for sharing. I actually enjoyed the article. His perspective is one I'm sure many can relate to (except maybe for the air conditioning thing). My "listening space" is my living room and while I live alone, I want my gear to work with my lifestyle and taste. Rarely, it seems, do I read an audio review from someone who doesn't have a dedicated listening space.