There is an assumption on the part of the OP and others that audiophiles spend more money based mainly on sound quality. I would challenge this basic assumption.
This hobby has morphed into a luxury pursuit where there is no longer any practical limit on the cost of gear. There are speakers, for example, that retail for over $1 million. Burmester released mono amps that cost $350,000 a pair. I could go on. At the same time there are dozens of documented blind tests that show that listeners can't tell most gear apart on sound quality. Therefore, I think the question of diminishing returns is mostly irrelevant.
We buy and upgrade our gear because it makes us feel good to do so. We get an emotional response to the story behind the product, the design and aesthetics, input from members of our tribe, and the brand identity. Confirmation bias will insure that it sounds better than the previous stuff and there's nothing wrong with that. If it makes us happy then it was money well spent.
In my direct experience I have tried to determine if upgrading will bring a worthwhile benefit. The core of my system is about 25 years old (Thiel CS6, Krell KSA300s, etc.). I could afford to buy some fairly expensive new stuff if I really wanted it. I've been to 3 audio shows and I have heard a bunch of 6 figure systems that didn't sound better than my setup and some that sounded considerably worse. I have also heard a few systems that I would love to audition in my home; MBL 101 E Mk II, for example. But if I spend the money it will be as much for the pride of ownership as the improvement in sound quality. I would simply love to have a pair of 101 E's plus a pair of those beautiful black MBL monoblocks in my listening room. You can bet they would sound glorious.
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@jjss49
diminishing returns does not mean lack of positive returns, that last few percent improvement may well be worth it for those who choose to pay for it - this applies for many many fine things in life, not just hifi
Sorta agree and disagree as this is mostly personal. If I would have known the last few percent improvement cost 6 times more than my first system, I wouldn't do it. Yup, it's my fault as I pulled the trigger without carefully evaluate "what kind of volume I want to listen to most of the time". While my new system gives me better clarity but I really need to crank up the volume to enjoy it. At low/normal volume, I would prefer my old system as it is way cheaper. I guess there's that word..synergy when you've found it.
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Another element of the audio journey which both OP and respondents have left out is the pleasure of the journey itself. As with travel, often the voyage is as important as the destination. With every equipment upgrade, and slow adoption of every new technology, I have found the process of adaptation and expansion just simply a Fun Activity. When upgrading components I focus on ONE at a time (including cables) so all other variables are kept constant. Is the $5k amp 2x better than the $2500 amp? Not even close. But is it noticeably better? Sure. I find the degree of improvement best tested by moving backward: once the ears have embraced the $5k amp, backshift to the $2500 amp now in your secondary system. The downgrade is more noticeable than the upgrade. And there is great enjoyment in Learning Experiences such as this one.
very well said @hickamore
this is a very nice articulation of my own journey over the many many years in this wonderful pursuit
to the other comments made, i would remind everyone that there are plenty of people in society with more money than sense, with more money than good taste, with more money than time, with more money than good values -- this is hardly news... maybe the news is that some hifi manufacturers are more overtly profiting from this age-old reality
the presumption in this thread, and in this forum, i think, is to have well meaning discussions and assistance provided to help people interested in doing the smart thing, make wise purchases, to maximize enjoyment for the effort and resources expended in this field of home hifi music production...
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@henry53 Focal Clear headphones never sold for $2200. Both the original model and the later Mg model came on the market for $1500.
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I think most everything we do in life involves the concept of "diminishing returns".
I love cigars. And happily I've found that I don't have to break the bank to buy, say, Cuban puros over other less expensive smokes.
Same goes for wine, cars and yes, audio.
Do I begrudge the OP's friend who spent all that cash? Not a bit. Have at it and enjoy, I say. But I have to wonder were I in his well-heeled shoes if I would make the same call. Fun to think about! 😉
Happy listening...
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To each his own...enjoy the music, don't buy "trinkets" that you cannot afford.
And yes, there is a point of diminishing returns, although it happens on a personal level!
Regards,
barts
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Certainly buy runout gear, examples Focal Clear phones AUD$2200, bought for AUD$800, Audio Physic Speakers AUD$5700 bought for AUD$2900, Cayin tube ampAUD $3600 bought for AUD$1900 there are plenty out there. I rarely pay more than 60% for anything.
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The expectations curve keeps rising. Where does your friend go after spending $100K, and the old restlessness returns? $500K for that next 20% of satisfaction?
Perhaps climbing the cost/benefit ladder rung by rung would be wiser.
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@dadawada
Ok, on Wagyu beef. I was somewhat skeptical on how much better it could be… then I spent a lot of time in Japan… wow… only the Japanese could create something so over the top and incredibly delicious. Makes our best steaks tastes like “Sizzler steaks”.
Makes me think I should put together a Shinto system somewhere.
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Agree with most above.
I built what I call a mid-fi room with a $15,000 budget (and was able to buybthriugh a local dealer at about 60% of internet retail which I think is normal).
Since that point my top end budget has changed. But I really have little interest in upgrading. It’s a great room for me. Instead I have scratched the upgradis itch by building two new setup in my office and in my formal living room against a WAF.
This is an industry of light assembly, tried and true engineering, and heavy markting.
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As you can see there are many "opinions" related to your question. Personally I think the best advise is never pay retail for something you can buy used. It is true that the latest and greatest is hard to find used but that may not be an issue on certain components as you may not need the latest and greatest. I have a combination of new and used for instance my Thorens TD-124 was built in 1961 and restored this year, I will never sell it. My speakers are Klipsch Cornwall IV's that I purchased new and absolutely love (no listening fatigue ever) there are those on this forum who will speak critically of them but they are the perfect speakers "for me". From someone who has always had issues finding balance, I simply suggest that you enjoy your journey and the love of music.
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In the '70s I started with a Kenwood integrated (which I still have) and Large Advents. In the '90s I moved up to a big Adcom amp and Proac 2.5s. In the '10s it was McIntosh and used Avalon Eidolons. And now I have a dedicated room with Esoteric electronics and Audio Physic Avanteras. Most of these upgrades have made me happy. And I can't wait for Axpona to begin exploring what my next moves will be. I guess I'm just a dumb happy guy.
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Diminishing returns is a term of art in economics originating with Jeremy Bentham. A classic example is that for most people, the fifth ice cream cone they consume today will have less value than the first or second. it is not linear, and it does not kick in from the first dollar spent. Someone who upgrades from the IEMs that come with a Samsung phone to a $200 pair of IEMs might gain a net higher return from that additional investment. Where diminishing returns begin to be felt is subjective. We might hypothesize that they begin to kick in at the point where someone is 75% satisfied with all parts of her $10K audio system, and is considering an upgrade to gain an extra 20% of satisfaction. Generally speaking, an economist would say that if she has to spend $20K to gain that extra 20% of satisfaction, returns to investment are objectively diminishing. That certainly does not mean, however, that she shouldn't spend the extra money to improve her system. That depends on her bank balance, her subjective valuation of the additional 20% in satisfaction, and her opportunity cost (what else she might do with that amount of money instead of spending it to improve her audio system).
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I had a friend that went through a similar process at great expense.
I took him to a local shop that has a heritage system consisting of original Quad ESL speakers and amplification. The owner played some acoustic music and my friend jusy said "Fzck!" because the reproduction of strings was so amazingly realistic - better than his megabuck system.
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Third post nailed it (mulveling). Is that $10k cartridge THAT much better? Only if the rest of your system is.
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I think what sets my threshold for diminishing returns lower than many other audiophiles on this forum has to do with unrealistic expectations on my part. Just to throw out a number, I’ll say that an affordable system for me will get me 65% towards what my mind might idealize as the ultimate in reproduced sound. I expect a very high end system in an excellent room to get me to 95%. It instead gets me to 75%. Some of the major shortcomings of 2 channel audio recordings, which are what I listen to mostly, are still plainly evident to me, even on the best recordings. It’s like I’m expecting a $1,000,000 supercar to be able to silently hover and fly me across oceans at supersonic speeds. Instead, it just rolls along on the ground like my Nissan, faster and a lot classier but no where near as fast as I’d really like to go, or expect to go for $1M. A car is a car, not an anti-gravity flying machine. The truth is, $1M isn’t really all that much money in the grand scheme of things. I just don’t have that much so my expectations are inflated.
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The concept of diminishing returns does apply to the audio world. However, "hifi sound" is entirely subjective. Most people will tell you they're getting it for < $1000. A few people will tell you that you can't get it for $100,000. They're both right - they just have different standards, and there's nothing wrong with that.
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Buy and assemble what you love and can afford, hell with diminishing returns. Some people will base the change in equipment for the simple reason they love the way a pair of Sonus Faber speaker looks and not necessarily because it sounded better than their previous speaker. Someone may switch from solid state to tubes again for the same reason. Others may change because the new piece of equipment has more features they require. The concept of diminishing returns does not matter if what you changed to brings you more enjoyment and satisfaction.
With all that said, certainly as you spend more for pieces of equipment the next one right above it in the product line may not sound significantly better however if you switch to the higher end line and jump up in models you are going to hear a much more pronounced improvement the majority of time. So once you hit really expensive equipment more than likely to easily hear a big difference means you need to spend a lot more money where if you are in the entry level area the jump in dollars to hear a significant difference is not going to cost you as great a spread in the amount of money required. All this assumes that you have the correct synergy already going with your equipment and your room has been worked on so your equipment is properly placed, particularly the speakers and the corners and walls have been treated.
A better room with treatment is going to make a bigger difference than spending a five hundred to a thousand dollars for a new pair of speakers.
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If you can’t hear the difference between two totally different set ups...you don’t really have a discerning ear...
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I have an excellent sounding system. I don’t have $20k invested. Most would believe that I must have more invested. Here it is
Martin Logan Spire loudspeakers-used for $3300
Primaluna Prologue 6 tube monoblocks-used for $1800
Dennis Had Inspire LP3.1 preamplifier - used $1150
PSAudio PerfectWave dac-new $1600
Marantz TT15S1 turntable- new $1200
Benz Micro MC cartridge- used $500
PSAudio phono stage- used $450
Threshold T3i preamplifier-used $1200
Pass ACM monoblocks 25 watts Class A amplifiers -used $600
CambridgeAudio CXC transport-new $600
Nordost Purple Flare speaker cables 3Meter-used $500
Total $12,450
It’s a very decent sounding system. And I didn’t need to spend an additional $2k for a SS preamplifier and SS mono’s to gain the joy of the tube mono’s. So a very conservative system that plays way above its weight. But of course, buying used definitely helps. Instead of spending $9k for new speakers I purchased the identical speakers used @ $3300. Same for the tube mono’s at half off.
So basically $10k for an entire system. But it helps buying the speakers locally as I did to avoid shipping costs and avoiding shipping damage. So yeah, it can be done by a normal Joe Blow working stiff.
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The cost/value curve starts turning sharply upward at a point slightly greater than the amount that I’ve spent on my own audio system. 😏😆
theaudioatticvinylsundays.com
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@coltrane1 love your post, also the key is you are content (for now?) with your system. Great job!
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@jeffstrick , yes extremely content. In fact I’m done. Now, if I can only clean and play vinyl as often as I’d like to!
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I hear you @coltrane1 I find myself using the the demo Innous Zenith I bought on the cheap more and more.
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What you can afford. At the end it plays music. People like to catergorize EQ as hifi, midfi, lowfi.
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I'm a big fan of 80/20 rule and 20% improvement of something is pretty good.
I believe it's important to appreciate the hear and now.
Some people are ecstatic with a Bose lantern and good for them.
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