Linn LP12 turntable

yoyoyaya

totally agree!

Sometimes it’s advisable to think outside of the box (and cover) !!

’You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete’ Buckmaster Fuller.

Begs the question, why have Linn never produced another model turntable? Money pit?

l have said before (as an example)

Car dealerships make more money servicing, selling extended warranties and finance than selling you a new car.

@yoyoyaya   I don't think the upgrades are as you say..'fixing flaws in the original design and engineering'. Instead, I think the upgrades are exactly that..upgrades. Brought about by evolution of the design and fresh thinking as time has gone by. 

Any older product could be labeled as insufficient if compared to what has come since, and evolved. For just one example, one could say that cars from the past were flawed in their designs and engineering compared to today's vehicle...but i think that would be a disingenuous statement.

@mylogic   You ask would it be more economical to sell your early Nirvana model LP12 and buy a second hand or new model with all of the upgrades. The answer to that is possibly, but not always. It would depend on what upgrades are required and the ability to budget for a 'once and done' move ( which is not feasible for most folks). The benefit to the LP12 is that one can incrementally upgrade upwards...'as budget allows'. This aspect seems to be overlooked by the many detractors. But, I believe it is a very important one and one that has significant value. 

Short answer: Buy it. It is a quality classic turntable. With those upgrades, $2400 is a value. And, a safe investment - it is unlikely that it will ever be worth significantly less than $2400..

I have had many turntables over the years and currently own three.

1- Nottingham Systemdeck with Koetsu RSP cartridge

2- New Rega P10 with Transfiguration Proteus D cartridge

3- Four year old Linn LP 12, Lingo 3 and many other upgrades with Grado Aeon 3 cartridge.

Of the three, it's the LP12 which brings me the most joy. I did add a steel wall mount to eliminate footfall issues.

For what it's worth, the LP12 kicked out of my system a VPI Classic 3 Signature table.

@panzrwagn Agreed. But I am not a TT collector. I stated earlier the reasons this particular TT was a no go, but a newer LP12 could be… better shape… better arm.

@awise1961 A very interesting observation, in that you own both but prefer your LP12 over your P10. If you don’t mind sharing, why specifically does your LP12 bring you more joy?

@signaforce Given your description of the LP12 at your dealers, I would say that this is not a particularly outstanding deal. If budget allows, I would definitely look for a table with a Karousel bearing, or at least a Cirkus with a better power supply than a Valhalla. ( maybe pass on a shoe box Lingo ( due to age), but later versions should be considered). As I said before, I think the new Majik is a nice table..and a decent buy. Plus you will get it set up by an authorized dealer. ( The set-up is worth $$).

@mylogic - re your question, IMO it's not in Linn's interest to produce a ground up new turntable design for two reasons:

One, because, as demonstrated by this thread, the upgradeability is a major selling point.

Secondly, from the time that Linn introduced the LK 1&2 amplifiers they started a strategic shift from mechanical engineering to electronics.

Taking both of those together, I doubt that the business case for designing and manufacturing an entirely new turntable stacks up for them.

@mylogic Buckminster Fuller, icydk.

Back on 2022. I stupidly got back in the Vinyl Rabbit Hole. I got a good deal from Music Direct on a MoFi StudioDeck/MoFi StudioPhono/Ortofon Quintet Black. The standard MoFi was included but they installed the Ortofon for me shipped the MoFo Cart in the Ortofon box. I loved it! Dead quiet phono pre with proper MC loading for $350 ! The Table is built well and I loved the Delron Platter.

The Phono pre within 3 months was replaced with the PS Audio Stellar Phono pre after a friend bought his over and I later found one used on USA Audio Mart.

Then a member of our AZAVCLub 8 months later told me he has a full Linn Package for sale which was just given a full checkup by an autrhorized Linn Dealer here in Phoenix.

Fxxxxck !!! He only wanted $2k for....get this.....Linn LP12/Ekos Arm/Lingo P.S/Benz Micro Wood Bodied MC Cart. And he took a payment plan from me and entrusted me take it off of his hands ASAP.

So I had the MoFi checked out by an authorized MoFi Dealer here in Phoenix and reinstall the MoFi Cart. for me. Then I sold the Deck at a loss of course.

I’ve always wanted a full blown Linn Deck since seeing the ads and reviews in Audio Magazine in the 1980’s/1990’s (Stereophool and The Absolute Ass weren’t on my radar until many years later).

The Kicker is no difference to my "Digital Man" ears. Ok the Benz is warmer (Woodier sounding ) than the Ortofonn Quintet Black (yeah I do my own Cart swaps - easy peasey).

But the Linn looks cool and that’s what counts to me. I’ve always been a technology 1st, sound 2nd person. And if it looks sharp or "Vintage". So be it.

Like my 1968 resto modded Bose 901’s with miniDSP shoved inside the old EQ case. These are iconic pieces of Audio Gear.

Hate Them of Love them....They’ve stood the test of time !

So “to look good is better than to sound good”. But how does that make you a technology firster? It doesn’t seem that your LP12 is near to a full upgrade, if that’s what you mean by “full blown”..

Linn's founder, Ivor Tiefenbrun, is above all an engineer who believes in measuring what caused changes. He figured that if a turntable could be assembled with a screwdriver, it could be repaired with one. It could also be upgraded.  By having each unit assembled and signed by an individual, it could be returned to that individual for repairs.  This became a learning process feeding into engineered improvements.

There's a fascinating read here A Wee Dram of Scotch: Linn Products' Ivor Tiefenbrun | Stereophile.com

gordon

Buckminster Fuller

Typing from memory…. I stand corrected !

l have been listening to Elton John’s (self titled) album recently that features Paul Buckmaster, the composer and instrumentalist. Ha!

Now that’s a great recording on LP and SACD.

lewm ref. rajugsw

l sound better than l look !

And could do with an upgrade !

@Richardbrand - having serviced many Linn LP 12's, I never came across a case of a turntable being returned to the factory. Anyway, to be fair to the LP12, the only things that ever breaks in them is the electronics and, very very rarely, the motor. The "we don't use a production line" (from the 1994 interview) is just spin. Linn's production volumes and the simplicity of the TT assembly process wouldn't have justified a production line. Working from memory, there are about 20 fastenings in total - screws nuts and bolts  required to assemble an 1990's-era LP12. I don't service them any more but I don't see radical changes to the basic structure of the TT in that regard,

What can break in any turntable that hasn’t been defenestrated by an angry owner? Only the motor and any related electronics to control the motor. Basically they are all very simple devices.

What can break in any turntable that hasn’t been defenestrated by an angry owner? 

Great word!

Was gonna say “thrown out of a window”. Then I thought “defenestrated” is easier to type on my cell phone.

lewm and your reply ref. rajugsw.

Reading back reminded me of an event on ‘looks or sound?’

Laskys we’re a London hi-fi store in the 1970s. They later opened stores across England in the 1980s. It was on a visit to one in Exeter l heard a few lads very excitably talking about a Marantz PM310 on display. I remember it like it was yesterday. The Amplifier was champagne in colour with led displays and really stood out from the crowd!

One of the guy’s suddenly and enthusiastically shouted out, ‘’I would like to SEE that one working!’’ Obviously this amplifier with added ‘bling’ was more of a consideration looks wise than sound wise! Not the normal ‘old way’ to audition a nice, but not too expensive piece of kit.

It all sounded wrong to me and totally illogical !
l had a quiet chuckle to myself and thought, how times were changing.

The Linn LP 12 in its various declinations is a great turntable. Its sound is warm, musical, and rich in detail (obviously a lot depends on the cartridge used, the better it is and the better the positive result will be). It is, in my opinion, a turntable that can give great emotions! I am currently using an SME turntable that has been giving me great satisfaction for many years. For me the only alternative could be the Linn LP 12 ... on the other hand the British sound has truly set a precedent.
Having said that, what can I recommend ... if you can, certainly get it and then eventually improve it little by little with its upgrades. But in the meantime, organize a perfect calibration by a certified Linn expert ... it is essential!

Kind regards

Alessandro Catalano

ericba

l first heard the LP12 in the early days at a demonstration room in Laskys Tottenham Court Road, London in the early 1980s. A v B tests with a Systemdek lll turntable. I can’t be sure of exactly what arms or cartridges but they were identical.

A few preferred the Linn…..bass bloomy reproduction and others preferred the neutral cleaner bass of the Systemdek.
I stayed for a while and listened again. Only one customer made a positive decision that day and bought the Systemdek.

I remembered this and years later (1990s) l bought a second hand Systemdek lll from a local guy for £150 and I still have it today. Never needed to be modified, is still totally original except for changes of MM cartridges and has remained my number two deck. It has never needed recalibration and just plays on…….

l did by the way prefer the Systemdek over the Linn at Laskys.

Pleased it proved to be value for money and a keeper.

@signaforce

I see you’re thinking about changing to a piano black plinth.

My wife insisted I do that last year because she doesn’t like the retro look of the fluted rosewood. It didn’t make any difference to the sound, but it sure looks good. I can post before and after photos if they are any help.

There’s an argument to be made that it would be better to keep the money to spend on upgrades that do improve the sound quality.

However, there is another option that my dealer didn’t tell me about until it was too late. You could get an old plinth sprayed with piano black lacquer. That may necessitate acquiring a second hand non-fluted plinth, but should still work out cheaper than ordering a new one from Linn. You may find that your dealer has a suitable old plinth lying around gathering dust.

@awise1961 A very interesting observation, in that you own both but prefer your LP12 over your P10. If you don’t mind sharing, why specifically does your LP12 bring you more joy?

The LP12 with the AEON 3 has that midrange bliss with very good bass and upper end detail that suits my ears well. My other setups are wonderful as well with the P10 providing more detail and still great bass. The Rega RB1000 is a great tonearm. I like the LP12's Lingo 3 power supply. My TT power supplies get installed behind the door in a salamander cabinet. When I want to pause the LP12, I use the swith on the TT itself. With the Rega, there is no such swith on the TT. You have to press a button on the power supply which means opening the cabinet door and first moving any LP's which may be waiting in the wings in front of it.

I'm listening to Steely Dan Gaucho via the LP 12 as I write this and it is beautiful 

The rest of my system consists of a Conrad Johnson TEA3 phono stage into a CJ GAT S1 preamp into CJ LP276M tube monoblocks into Wilson Alexia speakers. Al cabling is Audience Front Row. This all resides in a dedicated listening room which measures 23' X 25' with a vaulted ceiling. 

In this system, for me, the LP12 is very musical.

Your system will possibly invoke a different outcome.

@newton_john Would love to see before & after. Thanks!

@awise1961 Very nice system, turntables & cartridges!! I don’t have the power supply issues, but nice to know I could hide the Lingo! Sounds like I could not go wrong either way. Thanks!

@yoyoyaya 

I guess the further you are from Glasgow, the less likely you are to return a unit for repair!  Linn's early market was the UK and that Stereophile article is itself over 30 years old.

Strangely, an inverse law seems to hold for Scotch.  The further you are from Scotland, the lower the price.  Another good reason to live in Australia ...

I have tried many TT from a Project to a Clearaudio Emotion and finally a Linn LP12.  Mine is a 1988 vintage with a corner braced plinth.  It has the Cirkus bearing, Hercules II PS, an Akito l tonearm w/Adikt cartridge, Trampoline ll, and a few other minor bits.  I am in it for just under $2K.  I had it setup by a Linn dealer after it shipped to my home.  I will say it sounds fantastic and doesn't leave e wanting anything more.  Based on what upgrades yours may have it sounds like a good buy.

@richardbrand. I'm not that far from Glasgow. But glad to know that Scotch is cheap down under - it certainly isn't in my neck of the woods - proving your scotch theory :))

@ alessandrocat - SME and Linn's turntables are the proverbial chalk and cheese when it comes to sonics. If you love your SME then I very much doubt you would like an LP12.

Price seems low, hopefully it's ok.  I have had my LP12 since June 1984.  Some

upgrades have been installed.  The Ittok arm was probably the best.  You should see an LP12 up close.  Hold the outer platter and feel its mass/weight.  It has been

perimeter weighted and dynamically balanced.  The inner platter is similar.  Even the belt pulley is machined, not made from inexpensive plastic. Its my understanding that the metal is nonmagnetic so that there will be no interference with the magnets in the phono cartridge.

I could say more, but don't wish to be too verbose.  I will close by saying I have no intention of disposing of my LP12.

@yoyoyaya

SME and Linn have quite similar origin stories, albeit with a couple of decades separating them. Both had access to high-precision engineering facilities. In SME’s case their founder was looking for a tone arm and asked the workshop if they had any tubing. The resulting 3009 and its relatives were a perfect match for the likes of the Garrard 301 and the high compliance, high trackability, Shure V15 cartridges. Almost half a million tone arms were sold.

Fast forward, and the founder of Linn was unhappy with his turntable - it was not as good as his dad’s. So he built one, but it was not an improvement. He worked out that acoustic isolation was important, hence soft springing, but also that any slack between the stylus and the record would be amplified. Very tight bearing tolerances and rigid tone arms were needed.

SME responded by casting one-piece magnesium tone arms and eventually made their own turntables at pretty eyewatering prices. Eventually SME even picked up the remnants of Garrard’s turntable business and now offer a ’new’ Garrard 301 at prices that make me wonder if they are serious about it.

There is some speculation here about why Linn has not introduced new designs for vinyl playback. This only makes sense to me if the new design moves away from the modular, belt drive, suspended deck platform with rigid tone arm model. Maybe a direct drive, massive table like the half-ton Wilson Benesch GMT One System. Or something like the bargain price (by comparison) tangential tracking, air bearing Holbo deck?

From Linn's business perspective it probably makes more sense to continue down the digital path they once decried ...

Currently listening to my buddy's highly upgraded LP12. Highly recommended.

@richardbrand. I've been involved in the industry since the late seventies, so I'm pretty conversant with the history.

Hi @Yoyoyaya, it's true that I love my SME turntable but I can assure you that if I had the chance to buy a Linn LP 12 I would certainly do it. I had the chance to try my SME Model 10 for a long time and at the same time with a Linn LP 12 in my system and both had the same cartridge (Lyra Titan i) and I loved both turntables. They both have a great quality in presenting the musical message generating great emotions. I can assure you that I have not found other turntables from other brands that can reproduce vinyl at this level. I believe that their secret is precisely in the belt transmission. Direct drive turntables, even high-end ones like the Technics SL 1000R or the Brinkmann Taurus, are certainly fine but they certainly do not give the emotion of a Linn or an SME. So I can confirm that with a Linn LP 12 I would be very happy and I hope to have one one day.

Alessandro

Hi @allesandrocat. I'm delighted you have found a TT you love. If you like the SME 10 then you would be well served by an SME 20 or 30, or, depending on the age of your SME 10, one of the newer power supplies. Regards Y

There’s al LP12 listed here for $54k.  Will probably sell quickly, so if you’re in the market…(no, I don’t have anything to do with the sale)

Also, Linn are coming out with a new plinth @ 9k pounds.  Save up.

@gordon 

I will jump on it… not!
9k plinth… incredible! Once again… not!
Their profit margins must be outrageous. 

I’m guessing the $9K plinth is taken from the 50th anniversary LP12, the one for sale at $54K here on Audiogon. Reportedly it’s made from a densified wood, a la Panzerholz. I’m guessing Linn has decided to make that new plinth available to owners of lower level LP12s, as an upgrade. Since the 50th anniversary unit for sale here seems to be “pre-owned”, I wonder what is or was the cost when new.

Geez, I thought he meant 9000 lbs.!

@lewm ,

Scuttlebutt around the barbershop is the 50th goes for $60,000 US new.

I'm gonna offer him $53,980 and see if he bites...

New ones probably sold out at that bargain price, especially since I think they’re limited production (maybe 50 units?).

According to the guy selling it, they made 250 and of course "They're reported to be almost sold out." 🙄😆

There is an engraved with Ivor Tiefenbrun signature 25 year anniversary edition SME tonearm, Majik power supply on eBay for just over $4k. I can only imagine the long term depreciation of this 50 year anniversary model. 
I am not sure why, but the internal phono stage for both the 50th anniversary & Klimax does Analog to digital conversions. I am sure they have their reasons, but not something I would ever want… regardless of how well done, turntables & phono stages should be pure analog IMHO. 

don't get me started on the Jony Ive 60K turntable. There were so many things wrong with the LP12, thank god he fixed it

@signaforce

The old saying……

‘It is easy to part a fool from his money!’

Springs to mind Tulip Mania (Dutch tulpenmanie)

The golden age of collectable bulbs began in 1634 and reached extraordinary levels of fashion and became a form of currency. ‘The Emperors Clothes’ story all over again because in 1637 the tulip prices dramatically collapsed. Fortunes were wiped out and peoples lives ruined.

This may not bode well for Deluxe, Anniversary, Special Edition (or however you want to dress it up) LP12 owners l fear.

Thats my logic by what has been posted lately.

I strongly doubt anyone who stepped up for the 50 year LP12 will be financially devastated even if the resale value goes to zero. Relax, guys.

@lewm

True to form.

l have always found it to be very profitable to be just behind a self titled audiophile (is as good as it gets) and snap up the bargain second hand equipment.

Wow….that is logical!

@signaforce

Here are the before and after photos.

https://i.postimg.cc/Bn9jHG7v/IMG-0249.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/43Xn2Qgk/IMG-4074.jpg

On the subject of plinths, Linn have just launched the Bedrok from their LP12-50 for all LP12s. It’s now available for a mere £8,750.

By the way, the LP12s with conversion from analogue to digital sound amazing. That’s because they significantly reduce the distortion, noise and interference that arises in analogue RIAA processing, pre-amplifiers and potentially crossovers.

@mylogic ,

I bet you and Mr. Spock would get along great...

@mylogic

That’s how I got my LP12 last year. Considerably less expensive than buying new for full retail price, but still unlikely to ever be profitable.

OP, I agree with you 100% that using an internal phono stage to do a A to D conversion is not ideal. Much better to have a stand alone phono stage that is all analog. ( which is why i use a CAT all tube phono stage).

The new Bedrok plinth is being discussed on the Linn based forums. It is the shape of the current plinth, without the radius corners of the 50th Anniversary model.

The asking price makes me question who would swing for it? There are options in tables that would be more adaptable to far superior arms ( this is the main area that i think Linn has been left behind with...their Ekos-SE is an old war horse that is well past its sell by date) that are now in reach price wise.

Presumably, ’if’ and when Linn does get around to replacing the Ekos-SE with a more competitive arm, the price will be jaw dropping! Certainly going by what they hope to get for the new Bedrok plinth. IMO, someone in their marketing department might must know something about their customer base, that the rest of us do not.