Tried several power conditioners over the years. Didn’t hear much difference. Frankly, wasn’t sure what I was supposed to hear. My system "had no noise". Ear up to the speaker. No noise.
One day, I installed another conditioner, and the image floated. Completely free from the loudspeakers. Deeper. Wider.
Oh! So this is what power conditioning can do.
Before that moment, I had no idea.
Now, I listen for more of that, or equal of that, and definitely not less of that.
The answer to how, is by trying. |
Getting in is hard. In the late ‘70s when I got captivated by high end audio. One of the things was listening to a set of Acoustat 2 + 2s. The sound was awesome. I probably could not tell you why. It triggered purchases, reading, talking and listening. But lots of times I couldn’t identify the variable. But every few years I would finally get one. I got a used preamp. I was listening to it, thinking how good it was, and suddenly I remember my face turning red as I suddenly realized it was grainy… I had read about this, but never experienced it. It went back. After that grain was easy for me to detect.
It took me decades to be able to identify rhythm and pace. I guess this is what makes the pursuit so fascinating for some and so frustrating for others. You can spend a lifetime learning and still discover stuff… or you can become frustrated and claim it is all BS. |
A common experience for me and my partner (she: better hearing) is to go into a high end audio store and have the junior sales rep come over and lead us to a mid-FI system and turn it on (too loud) and say, “Doesn’t this sound amazing!”. We clasp out hands over our ears and quickly leave the room as I mentally start mentally listing all the horrible sonic characteristic of the system… starting with high noise, distortion, bad balance. My partner just claims how it hurt her ears and sounded bad. |
hilde45-
I love this topic, OP. Well chosen and set up.
Here are a couple questions I'm especially interested in hearing your take on. These are earnest questions.
1. When you initially were trying to hear more, what was the reason? What motivated you to develop your listening acumen? I love music. Reviewers and others were talking about things I couldn't hear. Even though I couldn't hear them, I was determined to have really good music at home and wanted this so bad I would do just about anything. Plus I often had the vague sense of some things begin better, but in a way that was more a feeling than anything that could be put into words. So there was the motivation to understand something new. 2.
As you were initially listening around to try to hear more, you say you
only heard differences between "receivers." But you were listening to
different kinds of speakers -- did the big differences between speakers
contribute to your eventual "aha" moment? (I'm wondering because
sometimes there are multiple things at work in effectuating a change,
and only later, in retrospect, do I realize the subordinate factors at
work). No, the speakers and stuff had nothing to do with it. Receivers just sounded so distorted it was easy to write them off. Now being better at it I would say they are grainy, etched, congested, flat, and so on. But back then it was just they sounded bad. No matter what speakers. No matter what else. The harsh part of this was I started out totally sold on the idea of building a Home Theater around a "good" AVR! I was NOT looking for stereo! I just wanted the classic good sounding HT that is good for music. Because I love both. It was a real hard lesson to learn, that AVR is such a wasteland of dreck. Real hard. But it is such a wasteland of dreck that this was the first thing I was easily and reliably able to hear! 3. Around the time you developed your initial, stable
checklist of audiophile terms to listen for, how did that affect your
ability to listen for pleasure? Were you simply in critical listening
mode all the time? Did you already possess an "off switch" for the
critical way of listening or was that something you figured out later? Oh man this is a good one! In the beginning this turned me into the classic audiophile playing his "reference" CDs listening for this and that. Analytical listening got so bad that at one point I was turning my speakers over listening to compare stainless steel, mild steel, and brass studs. The studs that hold the Cones on the speakers. The studs inside the Cones. And hearing the difference. Another time listening to the Reference Recording From the Age of Swing I noticed the Radio Shack Bulk Tape Eraser improvement faded out after about 10 min. You have to be listening awfully close to the cymbals to pick that one up. Especially when no one is talking or even thinking about such a thing. But there it is. So yeah, serious case of audiophilia nervosa. The cure it turns out is tubes and turntables. Well, sorta. There is a bit more to it. 4.
In the case of the seasoned audiophiles who couldn't hear a difference
in what sounded to you like impressive gear, did you find out what in
particular *they* listen for -- and could you hear it? Or was there no
difference in that case for you? All I know is they said don't hear nuttin. My response was pretty much this thread: there are a lot of things people can hear that we haven't yet learned to hear. Thus the question: How do you do it? How do you learn to hear what you don't know how to hear??
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ghdprentice- Getting in is hard. In the late ‘70s when I got captivated by high end audio. One of the things was listening to a set of Acoustat 2 + 2s. The sound was awesome. I probably could not tell you why. It triggered purchases, reading, talking and listening. But lots of times I couldn’t identify the variable. But every few years I would finally get one. I got a used preamp. I was listening to it, thinking how good it was, and suddenly I remember my face turning red as I suddenly realized it was grainy… I had read about this, but never experienced it. It went back. After that grain was easy for me to detect. Good one. Beautiful. Thanks. You had the concept "grain" but it was just a word. Then suddenly one day listening to that preamp you made the connection. Now it is made you can hear grain and know it is grain. Very similar experience to mine. Thanks! |
Dude, where did the other thread go? Wait, this is a repost of the same post...
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The usual villians refused to stay on topic and so I had the discussion closed. There was useful information there so rather than have it removed I had it closed. This way the useful information remains for people to read and learn.
Certain people feel entitled to wreck any discussion and make it their own. No one in real life would barge in on a conversation the way they do. Even now after some of the worst have been banned, even now they still do not get it. Just move along. Please.
This discussion will continue for as long as it stays on topic. If they want to wreck it there will be another, and after a while then this approach will make it crystal clear they have no real desire to do anything but wreck productive conversation. They will by their own actions demonstrate the only course left is to ban them. If this happens it will be them doing it to themselves.
Bear in mind this is a last resort. Need I remind you of the letters these people have mailed trying to threaten and harass me even to the point of filing fraudulent charges against my x-ray license? They all know about this, and yet not a one of them has spoken out against it. So that shows just how aberrant they are.
Others are catching on to what is going on. Eventually enough people will speak up to put a stop to this. Put a stop to them. Until then, we will try this. Close discussion, thereby creating a record. Giving them all the rope they need, so to speak.
Meantime, I am genuinely curious how it is people learn to recognize new sounds. My hunch is even those who say they just sit and listen "to music" must eventually gradually somehow notice things like timbre, attack, decay, etc and that with certain components these sound more "right" than with others.
But, how? How did the sounds and the words that describe the sounds become linked and one in their mind? My hunch, another one, it is like my experience and like ghdprentice, after a long long time suddenly one day, AHA! Eureka!
But it is only a hunch. Hence the discussion. May it stay on topic....
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It’s a free and open forum. People can say what they want. Enough of the censorship mentality and cancel culture. If someone has continuous issues with what people say maybe look in the mirror. Chances are you are part of the problem. You can only control yourself not others. Everyone should work hard to get along and make things better. |
Bear in mind this is a last resort. Need I remind you of the letters these people have mailed trying to threaten and harass me even to the point of filing fraudulent charges against my x-ray license? They all know about this, and yet not a one of them has spoken out against it. So that shows just how aberrant they are. This is a pretty serious accusation that you have made twice now. I am a certified public accounant who retired a couple of years ago after 45 years as the tax director of the largest electric company in Vermont, which is still very small compared to most other states. I have worked for some very large fortune 100 companies before that. In other words, I have been around. If someone was to file a negative performance report on you with your place of business or a review board it would need to be signed by the person complaining so it could be verified that it was filed by an actual customer. No business or especially review board would or should take seriously an anonymous, unsigned complaint. How would someone on this forum who was not an actual customer of your place of business file a complaint? Is it possible that you are blaming Agoners for the actions of some of your actual customers? I can only speak for myself, but it is my impression that very few or more likely none of us takes this hobby, or any of the other posters, including yourself, that seriously to do the underhanded, vile things you are describing. |
Your name is on the letter. Mapman’s name is on the letter.
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If this is the case someone else put it, and I am sure Mapman’s name on this complaint. How would you or any other Agoners other than whom I have bought or sold from even know what my name is? Besides that, I have only PM’d a couple of people ever on this forum in 20 years.
Or are you saying the complaint letter was signed by jetter and mapman and other Agon names? |
filing fraudulent charges against my x-ray license? That’s bizarre. I’ve never got anything like that. Why is this happening to you? |
On the subject of listening skills...I have never given it much thought. On reflection, it’s been a saga of almost 40 years. An evolution where I keep the good things and let go the things that do not work. Most of the record(!) is on my Virtual System. What isn’t there is the countless hours of tweaking, reconditioning tube gear, tube rolling, and building a reference quality phono preamp from scratch which would sell for $10k today. Each improvement removed a veil allowing the music to come through. Like that crystalline blackness of live music. Layers of depth, emerging 3D soundstage, transient speed, timbre of instruments, and most importantly, the color of everything.
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Millercarbon I am aware that you claim my “name” is on some letter that I know nothing about. You can take that to the bank. The mods supposedly addressed this with you but apparently not. I will take it up with Tammy once again. |
Along w Audiogon it actually sounds like something the WA state license body should take up, along with the people who are being slandered, etc. |
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mapman: "if someone has continuos issues with what people say maybe look in the mirror" Map, those personality disorderd won't, as they feel others have the problem. Personality disorder: evil intent. Hey, no one can take my jiver's license away 😄 MC is spot on. |
I will isochronism How about you? I k now of no letter so MC is slandering my name. Enjoy laughing boy. |
So if my point of view fails to be exactly as yours, that makes me a "Villain". Geez, what a disappointingly low bar . What ever happened to the days of at the least you had to tie Nell to the tracks...
I'm guessing this thread will soon evaporate as well... |
I’d rather it stay as evidence.....
I was informed by a member MC claimed my "name" was on some letter as he describes. Tammy and I had a nice discussion about it and she assured me it would be addressed but apparently not. Let me be PERFECTLY CLEAR. I did not sign or endorse any letters to anyone here including Millercarbon.You can take that to the bank MC. If there is such a letter someone committed forgery. So that is serious stuff ! |
Millercarbon,
Do you honestly believe that I, and the others named on whatever letter you’ve received from some nut case had anything at all to do with it??!!
Just because said nut case decided to use our user names, you truly believe that we all somehow got together and conspired to threaten you?? You truly believe that enough to print our user names on this thread as if we did??! Good God man, think a little.
Get a grip. I had zero, and I mean ZERO to do with whatever it is you received. Yeah, we’ve all nothing better to do with our time than to forge a secret cabal against you. You are that ingrained in our lives. Ridiculous. This is what I posted after miller brought up this letter previously. Not only did he bring it up, he posted our user names. Apparently he is still somehow under the impression we had anything to do with some letter, I or apparently anyone else named, knows nothing about. I am getting tired of his libelous delusions, and if he mentions it again, I will indeed take it up with Tammy to have him suspended at the very least. I believe Admin would look most unfavorably at libel on their forum. What a pitiable notion of self importance he must have to still think we all somehow got together and sent him whatever it is he got. I will make myself quite clear; you are of zero relevance to me, other than an occasional amusing distraction. |
Your name is on the letter. Mapman’s name is on the letter. Let's just copy that, shall we... |
Yes!!! We have to get to the bottom of this one this time. |
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Ask Tammy, map.
That's what I did. |
Yes looking for the chat button to do that again...not finding it. |
Bear in mind this is a last resort. Need I remind you of the letters these people have mailed trying to threaten and harass me even to the point of filing fraudulent charges against my x-ray license? They all know about this, and yet not a one of them has spoken out against it. So that shows just how aberrant they are.
That's a better one. |
@mapman, It’s a free and open forum. People can say what they want. Enough of the censorship mentality and cancel culture. If someone has continuous issues with what people say maybe look in the mirror. Chances are you are part of the problem. You can only control yourself not others. Everyone should work hard to get along and make things better. Well said. In the meantime whilst we wait for MC to get it back together here’s a great video from Daily HiFi that sheds some light on the subject. Audio According to Science! https://youtu.be/qOXUcQPjYvc |
So just to summarize everyone can take it to the bank that if there is a letter as MC claims, and somehow it has my name or agon moniker on it, that is a forgery. So we will see. |
The one point I intended to offer ... but of course I was feebly/weakly taken in animalistically, 😣 so my thought was side/tracked ... the most and important advise given to young music students is: "learn to listen"!!! Some may not understand that simplistic obviousness. Yes, life is simple enough to understand, but complications are thrown at us to confuse. Map, while getting to the bottom of it, understand that you are in turn scraping the bottom. We are to strive for the highest level. |
@mapman I was informed by a member MC claimed my "name" was on some letter as he describes. MC repeats this in one of his posts above. Your name is on the letter. Mapman’s name is on the letter. |
So Millercarbon you made the accusation: what say you? |
Map, while getting to the bottom of it, understand that you are in turn scraping the bottom. Nope. THis needs to be resolved. That should benefit Millercarbon as well since he is the one who says he got a letter. |
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Indeed...What say you MC Borg Drones...How do you look now... So very amusing LoL!!!!! |
Be nice! Someone supposedly committed forgery if there is a letter as described. We don’t know who for sure yet. But MC was supposedly warned about this prior so .... |
@isochronism
Map, while getting to the bottom of it, understand that you are in turn scraping the bottom. We are to strive for the highest level.
I know you were addressing mapman, but obviously I don't live in the same world that you and some of these other people live in. In mine, when someone accuses me of signing and sending complaint letters to a persons place of business or worse yet his professional review board and I have zero idea what he is talking about that needs to be addressed. |
Let us keep in mind that MC stating he has a letter signed with our user names is in no way libel if he truly has it in his possession.
What is libel is this:
"Bear in mind this is a last resort. Need I remind you of the letters these people have mailed trying to threaten and harass me even to the point of filing fraudulent charges against my x-ray license? They all know about this, and yet not a one of them has spoken out against it. So that shows just how aberrant they are."
This, I will not stand for. I don't care if this a a simple audio forum or the World News. It will be addressed with the moderators whether he deletes his post, this thread, or not. |
Well since it has gone public lets just get to the bottom of it. That is the only way. |
He complains of his threads going off track, when he is the catalyst.
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@thecarpathian Let us keep in mind that MC stating he has a letter signed with our user names is in no way libel if he truly has it in his possession. Ha, who is going to take seriously a letter signed by jetter, mapman and last but not least, thecarpathian? Might as well be Mo, Larry and Curley. I was assuming, if there is a lettter, somehow someone found out our real names. But agree, let’s get to the bottom of this once and for all. |
I wondered about that as well which is another reason to want to see this letter if it in fact exists. |
Last time I was able to find a button and chat live with Tammy. Not finding that today? |
MC still waiting for your response. You made the accusation and it has been responded to. What say you? |
Wow...
Listening skill and letter writing.
Both rapidly becoming lost arts.
Great thread.
DeKay |
I see the OP as offering self learned evaluations. Otherwise, read The Scarlet Letter". MC's room is basically red. Some of you are Self-Punked!! 😄HA |
I don’t believe any of our real names were involved.
And yes, I agree, I couldn’t care less that some idiot signed a letter ’thecarpathian’ among other usernames.
Who indeed, in his right mind is going to take seriously a letter signed by these silly made up names? Well, we know who is.
The guy who continues to bring it up as if the actual people behind these silly names somehow decided to get together and threaten him. The guy who printed our usernames more than once on this forum attaching blame to us for whatever those letters contained even though the notion is ridiculous. The guy who still clings to that asinine belief even though he was told repeatedly by us the notion is ridiculous. That, is libel, and that is what I care about. Certainly not enough to lose any sleep over.
Now, if you’ll excuse me, it’s time for my Yankee Doodles and a glass of milk....
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And for the record, I don’t think my username is silly.
Just you guys...😉 |
checking out now, please somebody let me know if Tomic601 appears somewhere untowards… it is by the way my favorite salmon fishing plug Tomic ( made in Canada ), color is 601
Jim |
thecarpathian, and you'll need to be burped. 😄 |
