Marantz pm8006 vs Denon PMA-1700NE for combined home theatre and music room

Perhaps I could just use something like the Rotel RKB-D8100

https://www.rotel.com/en-gb/product/rkb-d8100

Your front 3 speakers should all have the same amp to match as perfectly as possible. If you are using pre-outs to a separate amp use them for all 3 speakers (L-C-R). If you get a 3 channel amp you can use pre-outs for L-C-R. If you can biamp L-R speakers you can get a 5 channel amp which would be stellar and not a lot of money if you go with second hand.

Now, when you have speakers in a second room I would pivot and use a whole house audio system, it gives you more flexibility AND it can be run wireless.
I would connect the ceiling speakers in the second room to a Martin Logan Forte wireless amp (which also has ARC room correction.) It has a streamer built in so you can run it independently of your main system. If you want to have the same music in both room get a Martin Logan Unison preamp/streamer for your main system.
They are on sale at 50% off:

https://www.martinlogan.com/en/category/wireless-systems

@kota1 So something like this: https://www.rotel.com/en-gb/product/rmb-1506

If listening to stereo music meant for 2 channels and not movies, is it ok to have the center speaker connected too? 

Yes, something like that. When you play two channel stereo its fine to have your center channel connected. Your Denon receiver will play back in stereo to just your L-R speakers when selected. What speakers are you using for L-C-R channels?

@kota1  I've got the Fyne Audio 500 home theatre pack. I love Fyne Audio. I've got the 501SP speakers in my dedicated music room. They're great.

So for the home theatre I have:

2x F501 (L+R), 1x F500C (Center), 2x F500 (Surrounds), 1x F3-12 (Sub) and 4x FA500iC (heights).

Id like to have the option for playing the same music in this room to another but perhaps I'm over engineering it. I could just have a Wiim Pro connected to the Denon x3800H and then buy a cheap amp to serve the other room with another Wiim Pro connected to that. 

Do you think the Fyne Audio speakers would benefit from a power amp in addition to the Denon or do you think the Denon would suffice for both movies and music?

Thanks for your advice.

Is your higher priority HT or 2-channel?  If the latter I think you’ll be fine running the center channel from the Denon.  For the stereo amp I’d recommend this Yamaha that’s at a higher level than the ones you listed and can be had at a steep discount here…
https://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/yamas1200sl-rb/yamaha-a-s1200-stereo-integrated-amplifier-silver/1.html

It has a HT bypass (they call it “Main In”) so when you hook the front L/R preouts from the Denon into the Main In on the Yammy the amp’s volume control is fixed so when playing HT the Denon controls the volume.  Conversely when you choose an input from a stereo source the Denon is completely out of the signal path and only the integrated amp is active.  I used this type of setup for years until I got a dedicated listening room and it really works great.  Hope this helps, and best of luck. 

Id like to have the option for playing the same music in this room to another but perhaps I’m over engineering it. I could just have a Wiim Pro connected to the Denon x3800H and then buy a cheap amp to serve the other room with another Wiim Pro connected to that.

Buy a second Wiim Pro and hook that one up to the Denon for the second zone.

Do you think the Fyne Audio speakers would benefit from a power amp in addition to the Denon or do you think the Denon would suffice for both movies and music?

NO!!!! Absolutely not. You do NOT want to use the Denon for music unless 2-channel is not important, and I think your Fyne speakers deserve better. The beauty of the setup I described above is that the Denon is COMPLETELY out of the signal path for stereo, which is what you want. The amps in the AVR are subpar and its preamp section is even worse and will kill your stereo sound quality. If you care about 2-channel in this system go with the setup I listed above.

@soix thanks! So should I connect the center speaker to the Yamaha as well as per @kota1 suggestion above?

So as per my original message "I was thinking of using the x3800h for my Center Speaker, Surrounds and 4 Height Speakers. I was then thinking of running the fronts via pre-out to another amplifier which has a main-in/HT-bypass to drive the fronts whilst watching movies. If connected via a main-in, it converts the stereo amplifier into a power amp only with the Denon x3800 having full control over volume etc..."

Should I leave the center to be driven by the Denon and keep it out of the signal path for music? If I do this, the F+L will be driven by the Yamaha and the center by the Denon for home theatre.

But all music sources (Wiim Pro, Turntable) will go direct into the Yamaha.

The Fyne speakers are great, you CAN biamp them with 90db sensitivity that rotel should be "fine" to biamp. So:

Denon L-C-R pre outs to Rotel amp. Use a Y connector for L-R channels to biamp.

Denon amp driving the rest of the surrounds.

I would recommend the Martin Logan Forte amp for the speakers in the other room. No need to connect a source like the WIIM, it is also a streamer.

Before adding a dedicated dac/pre for two channel in your HT I would get all of the above sorted out first. Later you can do as Soix suggested, get a dedicated dac/pre amp for your two channel. I run mine that way and it works fine. But it gets confusing if you do everything at once. Get the amp sorted first. I think there are advantages using the rotel for biamping. I would not use different amps for your center, terrible idea. You want a seemless match for your front 3 channels.
This is the amp/streamer I recommend for the other room:

https://www.martinlogan.com/en/product/forte

thanks! So should I connect the center speaker to the Yamaha as well as per @kota1 suggestion above?

No, the Yammy is just a stereo integrated so can only power the front L/R. 
 

So as per my original message "I was thinking of using the x3800h for my Center Speaker, Surrounds and 4 Height Speakers. I was then thinking of running the fronts via pre-out to another amplifier which has a main-in/HT-bypass to drive the fronts whilst watching movies. If connected via a main-in, it converts the stereo amplifier into a power amp only with the Denon x3800 having full control over volume etc..."  Should I leave the center to be driven by the Denon and keep it out of the signal path for music? If I do this, the F+L will be driven by the Yamaha and the center by the Denon for home theatre.  But all music sources (Wiim Pro, Turntable) will go direct into the Yamaha.

Bingo!  You nailed it and that’s exactly what I’d do if I was you FWIW.  It really is a wonderfully elegant and effective setup, and getting the AVR completely out of the signal path for stereo is HUGE.

@soix

In my setup I use a Sony Signature DAC/pre for my two channel setup while using the exact same speaker/amp configuration for L-C-R channels. When you use an immersive format you need that center to match seemlessly. I agree with using a dedicated pre-amp for stereo but not a different amp.

@kota1 While I agree in principle, in practice I’ve found using the AVR to power the center works well.  To use the same amp across the front would entail buying a separate stereo preamp and a 3-channel amp that will cost A LOT more and add another box and set of interconnects.  To me it’s just not worth all that for the potential benefit, but the OP could certainly do that if he wishes. 

I guess we have had different experience. In a movie the center is the MOST important speaker, to cripple it with the lowest performing amp would not be something I would do. The OP is looking at a 6 channel amp and the Fyne speakers are biampable. The used prices for that amp and are under $1K so it won’t bust the budget. He would have dedicated channels for both low and high frequencies of each speaker (4 channels total) and the F500 channel for the center is also biampable. So, all 6 channels are biamping the front 3 speakers, it will be able to squeeze every bit of performance from those speakers. He also gets the benefits of separates when he adds a dedicated two channel pre with HT bypass in the future, right?

OP, I do agree with Soix about keeping the two channel separate from the receiver. Once you get the Rotel installed and the other room setup you will be able to get a dedicaated preamp with HT bypass. When you listen to stereo the preamp with be able to use that same rotel amp, here is an example of the type of pre I am referring to:

https://www.crutchfield.com/S-y4lHat37gwF/p_313P6B/Parasound-Halo-P-6-Black.html?cnxclid=16806364556292155308910080301008005

@kota1 I think it really depends on the OP’s priorities. If he really wants to squeeze the nth degree of performance for HT I could see going with a 3-channel amp and stereo pre, but I think bi-amping is unnecessary and he can just use bi-wire speaker cables. The Yammy integrated I recommended is no slouch, and the Fyne speakers are a fairly easy load as well so high-power amps are unnecessary. Yes the center channel in HT is critical, but especially for movies the center is usually doing something very different from the L/R speakers, which is probably why having an AVR driving the center channel hasn’t bothered me very much and still find the presentation very enjoyable. I think having the same amp across the front is more important for something like surround music but not sure that’s a priority for the OP. Bottom line — I think the OP will be perfectly happy using a good stereo integrated with the Denon handling the center, but if he wants to up the HT performance higher than that for what to me are marginal gains, that’s totally up to him. There is functionally no added benefit to using a separate stereo pre versus an integrated, although if he spends more on a better stereo pre and 3-channel amp there could obviously be some additional sonic benefits to be had, but this will come at a price. It really just comes down to priorities and budget and how far he wants to go. To me, he’s already got a dedicated stereo system so there’s not as much of a need to go further with this system, but that’s up to whatever the OP wants. Just my $0.02 FWIW.

I have a combined system...my Rowland amplifiers always drives my fronts and my Anthem components drives my center and rears in a 5.2 surround sound system. When I listen to 2-channel my Anthem components are turned off. Marantz component that I’ve owned caused ground loop issues. The ground loop issues were eliminated when I switched to Anthem.

but I think bi-amping is unnecessary 

You are telling the OP to get an integrated amp by Yamaha, even Yamaha says you should bi-amp:

THE PHYSICS BEHIND IT

When an electrical current (i.e., audio signal) flows through a speaker wire, a small magnetic field is generated. Conversely, when a magnetic field is passed through a wire, an electrical current is generated.

Low frequencies such as the sound of a bass drum need large amounts of current to move the woofer in the speaker and push air across the room (thus producing sound waves we can hear). The signals that are sent to the tweeters in speakers (such as, for example, the “ting” of a triangle) require much less electrical current to make the small dome of the tweeter move. Nonetheless, both cause magnetic fields to be generated in the wire.

The problem is this: If that thud of a bass drum and the ting of a triangle are sent down the same wire at the same time, there is potential for audio degradation of the sound of the triangle. That’s because high frequency signals (with their relatively low currents of electricity) are susceptible to being unduly influenced by the higher-current low frequency signals (and their associated magnetic fields) simultaneously being sent through the same wire.

The solution is to separate the two signals via bi-amping — something that greatly reduces interactions between the two signals. The internal crossover network in the speaker restricts low frequencies from traveling through the high-frequency wire, thus smoothing out the signal path for the tweeter. It’s like driving on a newly paved road versus a dirt road. You’ll get there either way, but traveling on the paved road will get you there in better shape.

By the way, you may think that bi-amping seems like a good way to make your speakers louder. After all, two 100-watt amplifiers powering a speaker should make it sound twice as loud, right? Wrong. Thanks to the laws of physics (which state that there’s an exponential relationship between power and loudness), in order to hear something “sound” twice as loud, a speaker needs to receive ten times the power. Simply the doubling the power only produces a small increase in level, so bi-amping really doesn’t make the sound any louder … but it definitely makes it better, with cleaner, solid bass and more detailed highs.

https://hub.yamaha.com/audio/a-how-to/how-and-why-to-bi-amp-your-speakers/

@kota1 Sure, all else being equal bi-amping is nice but obviously costs more, and remember this is the OP’s second system so he may or may not feel the need to throw the works into this mixed-use system when he already has a dedicated 2-channel system for more serious listening. Between us he’s got two good options so really comes down to what his priorities and budget are.

The cost is actually surprising, that Rotel 6 channel amp costs $500-$600 on the used market, its less than the receiver! 

I understand your dilemma as I've been through the same though-processing.  I understand you already have the Denon.  Would it be worth it though, in elegance or simplification, to sell it, if you don't feel it's good enough, and simply get a surround receiver that also plays well in two-channel mode?  There are plenty that do so.  Cut the number of boxes, cables, complications...  

@cainullah

Been there before and the best solution is to keep HT and two channel completely separated, except for one interconnect between the L/R pre outs of the Denon and the HT bypass inputs of whatever integrated you buy. This assumes that the AVR can output the front left and right channels separately and the integrated amplifier has a HT Bypass option.

This site should help.

http://www.audiophile.no/en/articles-tests-reviews/item/426-amplifiers-with-processor-input

you can't combine home theater and music....they are mutually exclusive

@stringreen 

Did you ever watch a movie before that had a soundtrack? You know, like Jurassic park, Star Wars, JAMES BOND? I agree YOU can't combine home theater and music, but for the rest of us its not a problem. LOL.

All, thanks so much for your time and effort to reply. As ever, there are a few differing opinions but all are valuable and give plenty of food for thought.

Having had the PM8006 and the Yamaha at my house for awhile, I personally preferred the Marantz. To me it was more musical and had the benefit of good tone controls when you wanted them including separate midrange or the capacity to run direct without tone controls. While I own other Yam gear, I found these new units to be clean but not engaging to my ears. YMMV.It could sound different with your speakers. Cant comment on the Denon. Not a HT guy but I do recall reading good reviews on a recent Anthem piece in Sterophile.

@cainullah +2 on considering an Anthem AVR I have the MRX series and I can attest to the the musicality of Anthem AVR's they sound much better than Marantz and Denon for music. The great thing about the MRX series is the main five channels are a/b 140 WPC and the MRX has the ability to create multiple profiles so you can assign two of the 140 WPC outputs to your second 2 channel listening area. You would in fact have a killer second listening area with the added bonus of top notch room correction.The Anthem 1140 MRX is a solid one box solution to your problem wihtout over complicating what you are seeking to do, plug in your WIIM Pro (don't use the built in "streaming") it is silly and overly complicated, go the true wireless route and simply use your Wiim, I have Wiims and love it.                 Anthem really is a cut above.

+1@balooo2, I agree the Anthem MRX series of AVR's are very versitile for setting up a home theater and 2 channel system with the same unit, by using their zone 2 function and also using their pre outs it is very easy to set this typa of system up, Anthem also has the excellent ACR room correction that includes a tripod and microphone to help with your set up.

Upscale audio has the Anthem MRX 1120 Home Theater Receiver on sale now for $2,799.00 it was the last version but it was the top of the line unit. I have the MRX 520 for the last 5 years and I have had no problems with it.

@alucard19 $2799 is a steal the MRX 1120 is still top notch gear.

What I love about your unit (and all Anthem products) is ALL channels driven ratings lots of folks are fooled by the specs with Marantz and Denon units. Your 5 channels will blow other “top of the line” avr’s out of the water, the 5 channels you have is serious power with outstanding SQ. And they don’t load up the units with stuff you will not likely use. To experience better than Anthem room correction and processing you are talking Trinnov territory.

OP, your Denon is a fine receiver, there is no need for you to spend $2799 unless you want to, you certainly don’t need to. You would be much better off using that $$ for other upgrades. That Denon receiver just got rave reviews last fall and it is fine. If you want to upgrade get the calibrated mic and the new Audyssey MultQ-X upgrade for the Denon.:

https://www.whathifi.com/reviews/denon-avc-x3800h

The upgrade for DIRAC was also just released if you want to go that way:

https://www.audioholics.com/editorials/dirac-road-map-denon-marantz-2022

I agree, there is no need to spend $2799 but I will say this. I've gone though the same upgrade,room addition sceanarios and auditioned every major brand of HT in the past 20 years and for the money nothing comes close to the Anthem AVR's. If you audition an Anthem you will kick the Denon's,Marantz etc to the curb and never look back. I don't like complicated, selling the Denon and going the one box route with the Anthem is simply a suggestion that would acheive in my opinion a better outcome with fewer points of possible failure than what has thus far been suggested for what could be a wash going with the previous gen top of the line MRX for $2799 selling the Denon,not to mention ARC will be included which is light years ahead of Audyessey, and the comparable to ARC DIRAC upgrade is $349 but with Anthem the room correction is included. Also,DIRAC is not done with getting into your pocket at $349...you have to buy the mike and stand separately so you are really at about $500 for DIRAC. Cost and value are two different things.

We are all simply offering suggestions and in my case perspective based on personal experience not something I read about in a reveiw. 

@balooo2

I use a Marantz processor with Audyssey (the upgraded version with the calibrated mic) and my streamer uses ARC. I also have two amps that power my rear surround channels and rear height channels that use ARC. You can see the graphs of both in my profile.

Audyssey does a MUCH better job of integrating the subs with the speakers and overall bass management. It also does a much better job with channel separation and the soundstage. I have a very well treated room so DSP changes are readily apparent. This is something I experienced, not read in a review. Your post is extremely shallow you have obviously 0 experience with the upgraded version of Audyssey.

Well, since you never "experienced" it at least you can read the review 🙄:

https://www.soundandvision.com/content/audyssey-multeq-x-room-eq-software-review

@kota1 I don’t care about ANOTHER review you want to cite,my point is Anthem avr’s and processors performed superior for me to Marantz etc. period. That is my perspective based on my experience. Yes the bass is a little lean after running ARC (and that is the only fault I find with ARC) but all you need do is increase the bass gain to one’s perference if they perfer, no big deal overall it is still a far superior RC software in MY opinion and plenty of other folks believe so as well, fact.How does this combative vibe help the individiual or address the original question being asked?

So let’s just cut to the nasty chase which is where you’re headed (I’ve seen your post and others like you in these forums)....

I am wrong and just a stupid "shallow’ troll with no experience that could have never used or know anyone with the latest version of Auyssey. You are the last word and always right.

All the best!

@balooo2

You are asking someone to shell out $$$$ for another receiver when they already own a perfectly good one. I don’t see the need that’s all. Better to squeeze the max performance from your current gear IMO.

I use my streamer with ARC using the digital out to my Sony Signature DAC/preamp. I use the Sony as a preamp in my two channel setup bypassing my Marantz processor. The ARC in my streamer enables me to still have room correction in two channel only mode. 

Has anyone got experience with the Audiolab 8300a? https://www.audiolab.co.uk/8300a/

I think this also meets my requirements.

@cainullah I have not experienced the 8300A but I have listened to 2 examples of Audiolab 6000a based systems and the SQ from the Audiolabs was outstanding; the Audiolab sound and quality of amplification in their units is top notch. I don’t want to get my head bit off again and not "asking" you to purchase anything but I would suggest you seriously consider this. You are feeding a $5,000.00+ speaker system with a $1,700 avr from where I sit that is a somewhat unbalanced. Those Fyne’s you have really deserve better amplification than the Denon avr you currently have and the add on you are considering is a FAR superior peice of kit to what you are supplementing it to, thats just the truth. Just Take a step back and really reconsider what you are trying to achieve. I’ve been exactly where you are now. If you bring in the Audiolab 8300a you’ll hear for yourself how lopsided the amplification/ SQ is compared to the Denon and likely sell it to balance things out. The Audiolab’s are that fanastic sounding. Last thought; if you are considering spending what the Audiolab 8300a cost consider a used Parasound Hint 6 approx same cost (if patient) it is way superior to the Audiolab 8300a in every way again you’ll likely sell the Denon after experiencing either scenario because you cannot unhear it, both are that much better than what you have now and those Fynes really deserve better juice. Just a different perspective to consider...I hope this helps.

Beware, the rabbit hole is deep!

Good luck!

@balooo2 +1 🤟

Reigniting a bit of an old thread. I think I am going to take @soix's advice and go with the Yamaha a-s1200. However, I have also noticed that NAD have the C 3050 coming out this month: https://nadelectronics.com/product/c-3050-stereophonic-amplifier/

The Limited Edition version came out last year. Has anyone experienced the NAD? Would it compare favourably to the Yamaha? The NAD comes in at about £500 cheaper than the Yamaha in the UK.

Again, I'd want this to work for driving the fronts in a HT setup (with Denon x3800 driving the centre, surrounds, heights and sub) as well as providing stereo when playing music.

Thanks

Cain