Metrum Octave versus Eastern Electric DAC
/ Thankful: would you give us an update of the comparisons between the EE MinMax Dac Plus with Dexa opamps, the Lampizator Level 4 and the PS Audio PWD MKII? Thanks! To other EE MiniMax owners: do you have a good experience upgrading other components? E.g. the output capacitors (if so, Auricap or Mundorf) ? |
Morganc, I sent a couple of messages to you through Audiogon, but haven't heard back. Please check your inbox |
All this talk about the Metrum Octave has me intrigued. I'd like to hear one without committing to buy new. I'd love to compare it to my Bel Canto DAC3. I had an original EE DAC and liked it quite a bit, but didn't feel it offered an improvement over the Bel Canto. The EE was stock, but with a Telefunken smooth plate. Briefly, I ran it direct to my amp, but heard a definite roll off in the low end. That was to be expected with its incredibly high output impedance of 22k and my amp's unusually low input impedance of 24k. I live in the Bay area (Berkeley). I don't expect anyone local to reply, but it would be warmly welcomed. |
Hi Morganc, I have started my dac search with Metrum Octave, which is currently burning in at about 200 hours in my system. I'm very interested in your dac shootout with NAD M51 and EE+. I'm also waiting for Oppo105 to come out (it is attractive to me because I'm sure Modwright will offer tube upgrade for 105 later on). |
when you compare dacs, there are really four variables, the transport, the digital cable and the analog interconnect cable to the preamp. it is important to specify the other links when making a comparison. just saying the metrum is better than the eastern electric without naming what cables and transport are used is insufficient. making dac comparisons is almost impossible because of the other variables. if you say dac a is better than dac b, you assume that the other variables don't count. |
I'm waiting on an Audiphileo 2 and a Coax Cable to give a proper comparison. I'm currently using a Digital Optical Cable and I think it is Limiting the Computer Upsampling out of the Metrum. After I receive them, we will be doing a DAC shootout including the NAD Dac. We will be sure to post our impressions. |
I am going to have a Eastern Electric DAC Plus with the level 2 modifications-$2K mod with Hynes regulators hand built in Scotland)to demo. It might be the only one completed at this time, not sure. I should have it this Friday and will have it for a couple of weeks to try. I will be comparing it to my PS Audio Perfect Wave MKII. I really like the PWD MKII but it can bite from time to time. In about three weeks I will have a Lampizator Level 4 coming to demo. Stereomojo raves about this DAC. The winner stays. Bill at Morningstar states the Dexa Discrete Omp amps make a big difference in the EE DAC Plus. Has anyone compared the EE DAC Plus or Lampizator Level 4 to the PS Audio PWD MKII? |
I did some digging and there are a couple true 75ohm RCA jacks, but they're pretty darn spendy!! At $86+ shipping is the WBT-0210 NextGen RCA socket uses conductor material made of pure copper, and is direct gold plated. The signal pin hole is a spring loaded WBT double prism contact, while the ground/return portion utilizes a patented double-wave contact. The socket also uses a Teflon dielectric with torsion proof mounting. Tightens from outside using the included three-hole counter nut. Transmission bandwidth is 1 Ghz, and the socket has a characteristic impedence of 75 ohms, meaning this is an ideal socket for digital components, as well as analog components. Also available in a solid silver version. And at $58+ shipping is the Eichmann HC-XTC PhonoPod uses a full 20 micron direct gold plating over pure copper. One of the most intriguing parts of this design is that it is a true 75 ohm connection, which means it's perfect for digital SPDIF inputs and outputs. Will accomodate chassis thicknesses to .19". Please click below for more information Anyone know of cheaper options or at least sources for single rather then pairs of the sockets? For digital I only need one... |
I'm using a Wywire LTESpeed digital cable which is fantastic. It is terminated with Xhadow RCA connectors which are a true 75ohm unlike other RCA connectors and don't want to change this cable... I wonder if installing a nice aftermarket RCA plug would have the same effect as the BNC upgrade provided I keep things 75ohm? Any suggestions? |
Naggots may I suggest the Stereovox Ultra. I just did a shoot out between the Veloce,which I've owned for a year, the Silverstar 75 and the Ultra. Hands down the Ultra was significantly better. I believe you are not really hearing your DAC until you hear it with the Ultra, I was not.I'd not eat for a week if that's what it took to afford the Ultra....it's that much better. Chris is coming out with a new updated connector for the Ultra which will even increase the bandwidth more. |
Morganc, I see that you do not mention the type of digital cable you are using. Reason why I ask is that I just demoed a Stereovox Ultra digital cable and it elevated my digital front end to very significant levels. Honestly, one of the most significant upgrades I've ever done.My Rega DAC really sound so good now. |
Abruce, Going from memory my modified EE DAC had a different presentation then the Metrum. The EE DAC being more resolved and dynamic, maybe a little less body (could be slightly analytical) while the Metrum is more harmonically rich and organic. Morgan, You're using that Twin Imapact w/ Kora just for a SPDIF out? Seems complicated--any reason you did that instead of a Jkenny or Audiophileo? Has it proven a lower jitter solution? |
I have the Metrum in the system now and am enjoying it a lot. I have not A/B'd it against the EE Plus as I'm waiting to break it in properly. I also just added a new Pre-Amp into my sytem, so the enjoyment factor could be the Pre or the Metrum or the synergy between them. Right now I can say that the imaging, sound stage, and overall tone has never been better in my system. Right now I am using a Mac Mini-->Twin Impact Dac/Converter (Dac off) w/ Kora PSU-->digital cable-->Metrum Octave-->Allnic L-3000A Pre-->Art Audio Px-25--> Zu Defintion mk III. I'm also trying to put together a shootout in the next few weeks between the NAD, the Metrum, the EE Plus with Sonic Frontier Opamps, and if we can find a PWD we will add that in the mix. Will keep you updated. |
Last Friday I had the opportunity to compare my Metrum Octave to my buddy's AMR DAP-777 in my own system and the results were somewhat surprising. The Metrum had a more forward presentation and was a bit more textured while the AMR was sweeter and more laid back. Generally speaking the AMR was preferred with acoustic or simple vocal driven stuff (i.e. civil wars) but I actually preferred the Metrum with blues, rock and male voices! In both cases the differences weren't huge and as my friend put it, the two units were too close for comfort. The transport was my Bolder modified Squeezebox Touch with Bolder (music railed) PSU. We're planning on doing the comparo again at his house with his rig, and the transport will be the LampizatOr Transport (heavily modified Sqeezebox Duet with tube spdif out). |
the problem with all of the comments made about the minimax is the lack of specificity regarding what tube was used. i owned the minimax. it was never offensive, and with the right tube, i preferred it to the ps audio power wave dac, which i own. the reason i sold the minimax is that i have some cd players which i prefer. i would like someone to explain, logically, how a solid state component can out perorm a tubed component, when the latter's sound is tube dependant, and can vary greatly with the tube selected. i have always found the better tube dacs to exhibit more realistic timbre than solid state dacs. |
You may want to also consider the NAD M52 DAC. It's the equal of the PWD MK2, with differences mostly to do with synergy rather than anything else. I recently sold my PWD MK2 to a local Audiogon member who has it paired with a Yamaha A-S2000 integrated stereo amp. It sounded better in his system and his Harbeths than it ever sounded in my system with NC400 mono blocks and Selah Tempesta speakers. On the other hand, albeit after only a day of listening, my very recently acquired NAD M51 sounds better direct to the Hypex NC400s than the PWD MK2 did. Highly recommend both the PWD MK2 and the M51. |
Ok after a full day of evaluating my minimax plus with burson\dexa opamps, with the PS Audio perfectwave mkII, I have come to an conclusion. The minimax with any tube\opamp configuration simply isn't in the same league. In fact after listening to the perfect wave all day, switching back I find the minimax to sound very generic and offensive. My wife wishes I hadn't made the comparison, because now I simply need to make the upgrade. Not to knock the minimax. It's excellent for the price. The perfectwave is 3x the cost, so this extra performance should be expected. |
Very interesting findings, guys. It sounds like the Dexa opamps really brought the EE DAC performance up significantly. Unfortunately I did not have them in my modified first gen dac to offer insight. Yes the Metrum is definitely more laid back then the Sabre32 which I found could be slightly analytical at times, but also very exciting with the right material. Make no mistake the modded first gen dac was excellent! I see the first gen minimaxes go cheaply these days--can the Dexa opamps fit in it to see what the fuss is about for myself in comparison to my Octave? |
Devilboy, I am using a Wavelink HS with the Havana and a Weiss INT203 with the Octave. Also had an Audiophilleo 2 and John Kenny Mk3 modded HiFace (v1, not Hiface 2). Buffer size does matter. What software are you using? Greg, you may want to hold onto that Havana. Some straightforwards mods can greatly improve the sound. There is an enormous thread on Head-Fi. I have had OIMP V-Cap output coupling caps in for a while and it indeed did add a good deal more detail and transparency, but I have an R-core transformer on the way and will probably ditch the OIMP for much better CuTF V-Caps as well as Schottky diodes and some tantalum resistors. A couple of guys over there have replaced the 2uF output caps with .47uF CuTF caps and get a huge improvement. I recently put the CuTF caps in my Almarro A205A MkII and it still blows my mind how profoundly this mod has transformed the amp into one of the best I've ever heard, period. ESPECIALLY in terms of natural timbre and bass definition. As good as the Metrum is, it still doesn't have all of that Havana "magic". I am wondering if the mods can bring the Havana to the level of the Metrum in terms of detail, transparency, and precision. I will report back once the mods are done. Maybe start a new thread. |
I'm about to compare my minimax plus with Burson duals combined with Dexa singles with the PS Audio Perfectwave MKII tomorrow. I'll be running the PS Audio directly, and the Minimax through a transformer based passive preamp to a dual mono Hypex Ncore amp. Various highly revealing speakers will be used in the audition. I will post my impressions. |
Eugene81: Forgive me if you've already mentioned this, but what USB/spdif converter are you using? I had the Mach2Music HiFace2 but ultimately returned it because I was getting "clicks and pops" during playback. According to the advice of some members, I was supposed to increase the buffer size. I've asked those members how this is done, but have yet to receive an answer. |
I have the Eastern Electric DAC Plus with Dexa Discrete opamps but have not had the opportunity to compare it to the PS Audio PWD MKII. With that said, I cannot foresee a time when I'd wish to replace the EE DAC Plus in its current iteration of configuration. Pulling the tube and deploying the Dexa's delivers a sonic purity that renders all of my previous, numerous searches in the land of Dac's fruitless. |
Greg, I was in the same boat as you and if you are a big fan of the Havana, as I am, then the Octave is right up your alley. I've had the Bel Canto DAC2.5 and DAC3, Calyx 24/192, and Berkeley Alpha DAC 1 and 2 since moving my Havana out of my main system, and the Metrum Octave comes the closest in terms of the beautifully rich, saturated tone, but does not overdo it as much as the Havana can sometimes and has the inner detail and transparency that Havana owners are eventually left wanting. My Octave is not broken in yet, but I peg the sound as somewhere in between the Havana and Berkeley Alpha DAC Series 2. It started off more like the BADA2 but is going more towards the Havana as it breaks in (a good thing to me!!). ALL THINGS CONSIDERED I am happy to trade the BADA2 for the Octave while saving thousands of dollars. Certainly there are tradeoffs but I am not left thinking about having the BADA2 back. Whatever you do get a GOOD USB/firewire-SPDIF converter (or transport if you are using CD). I am finding that it makes a big difference in subtle ways (funny how that works) as I move up the chain. |
Devilboy: Overall I listened to the Metrum Octave for about 16-17 hours over 6 separate sessions. The sonic character of the Octave was extremely consistant over all my listening sessions. The musical differences between the Metrum (NOS) and modded EE DAC + (SABRE) were very apparent from the beginning. I would venture to guess that the vast majority of listeners would be able to identify which of the two DACs they preferred rather quickly. I think it might be harder when comparing two NOS DACS or two SABRE DACS. Since my sonic preference never wavered over the entire time I compared the DACS I felt comfortable in my decision. |
Sonic Imagery seems to offer for this opamp a DIY kit. Once again, a caution in regards to jumping to conclusions with the DEXA and Burson discrete Opamps for the EE Minimax DAC Plus; if you only have one rig and never want to change out anything again, sure you can claim whichever is "best". I have built multiple rigs since the article and have consistently found no predictable result in which combination or set of DEXA and Burson Opamps will be superior. Case in point, I just put in new speakers two days ago and clearly with these speakers and components the Burson are more to my liking, although in the system just prior the NewClassD Opamps were my choice. It's just not as simple as this or that is better. Thus I recommended the two sets so as to have a system-change-proof solution. |
Morgan: Enjoy the Metrum. It's on its way. Have not heard of Sonic Imagery. Would be interested in hearing them sometime. In addition to the Dexas I also have Burson discrete opamps that have a completely different sonic signature. Where the Dexas are clean and crystaline in character, the Bursons have more meat on the bone with better bass. |
For those of us watching from the bleachers, please continue to give us your results and opinions from your comparisons. The DACs you are comparing seem to be in the sweet spot for price/performance/value and are great components which many of us are interested in, but don't have the resources to buy/compare/sell/return, so thanks for your efforts. |
Hi Guys, I just live a few miles from Sibelius and I just bought his Metrum Octave as I too have an EE+ Dac with upgraded discrete opamps, but I used Sonic Imagery opamps (a local California company). I will post my impressions after I receive the unit. I will say that the opamp upgrade was a huge upgrade and really brought the emotional enjoyment factor in my system up several notches! I also have the latest version of the Tranquility SE Dac so it maybe fun to compare all three. And Sibelius it maybe fun sometime also to compare the Sonic Imagery opamps with the Dexa. Maybe we can find a time to do that in person! |
I concur with Sibelus' findings ... the EE DAC Plus is a very 'exciting' sounding DAC. The Metrum is more laid back and smooth, but sometimes overly so in my opinion. I have the DEXA's in my EE DAC, and they are a very noticable upgrade that I'd suggest all buyers opt for direct from Bill at Morningstar. |
Sibelius, The emotional response you mention is more significant than any supposed accuracy(how would you determine it anyway?). Live music provokes an emotional involvement. If your system provides that you`ve done something right in putting it together.This attribute has the highest priority for me,without it what`s the point of listening if there`s no connection.HE speakers and low power amps is a good pathway. Regards, |
Devilboy: Thank you. It's taken me a lot of time and experimenting to get to the point where I recognize my musical biases and feel like I've matched my equipment reasonably well. I would never claim that HE speaker/low power amp camp is the most accurate way to reproduce music. However, I find I respond emotionally to the music more with this combo than any other I've tried to date. |
Wow Sibelius. After checking out the equipment in your system, I really am quite envious and hold your opinion regarding the EE/Metrum comparison in high regard. High efficiency speakers driven by low power tube amps is definitely my cup of tea. Thanks for you input and looking forward to a follow up. |
Received my new Metrum Octave last Tuesday and have had 5 extended sessions listening to a variety of music (jazz, rock, solo piano, solo violin, orchestral). In all sessions I have also been switching in and out my modded Eastern Electric Dac Plus (with Dexa discrete opamps and Mullard NOS tube) for comparison purposes. My impression of the Metrum is that this NOS DAC is very smooth and analog like. The music has great flow with little sibilance or listener fatigue. When I swap the modded EE Dac plus back in my system there is more resolution and dynamics while also eliminating any unpleasant digital glare. This has been my impression across all listening sessions and musical selections. The smoothness of the Metrum renders every disc I've played extremely listenable and satisfying. However,the modded EE Dac just seems to capture a bit more detail and nuance in the music and in the end I find I have a stronger emotional connection while listening with the EE Dac. That being said, I can see situations where a Metrum may be preferred. Folks with very detailed systems might enjoy the more laid back presentation of the Metrum compared to the more dynamic EE. As with everything in Audio, system synergy and musical priorities are paramount. For reference,the following is the rest of the equipment I have been using: Shindo Vosne-Romanee Preamp Shindo Haut-Brion Amp PS Audio PWT Transport Tonian classic 12 Speakers I will continue to play around with the Metrum for a while to see if any of my impressions change over time. |
