Moderately priced audio

Two thoughts:

1. A few thousand dollars is actually the sweet spot, where you get high quality gear, and the first derivative of quality per dollar from there is decreasing rapidly.

2. All the folks with the audio bug are letting stuff go for a song.  The 5 years ago $50k system can be had for this price with some searching, particular if the manufacturer is out of business.

Yeah, another point is that what one calls moderately priced, either new or used, is very subjective, at least to the point. $5k new excellent amp is moderately priced in my view, $5k excellent cartridge is not. It doesn't matter whether or not I can afford it right away or ever. I try to assess the intrinsic value of these things and will not pay $3k for mediocre amp but might pay $5k for an excellent one.
However, I think I reached the limit of what is possible to achieve with inexpensive components. If I really want to make a big step up it is going to cost even used. As an example, the least expensive speakers that I might want is Kharma for about $4k used, on ebay right now.

Quite a number of people have good hearing. I demonstrated to a few of them how changing one pair of interconnects or one power cord can significantly make the sound better or worse. They were surprised indeed. And none of those interconnects and power cords were junk, they were all good but a few were excellent. The less expensive power cord was $150 used and the best was $650 used, the interconnects were $500, $800, $1500 and $1700, all suggested retail prices new. Overall the best were the most expensive in this case, the $800 ones were the best value, the $500 ones were not acceptable. By the way, in my complicated set-up I use them all except the $500 ones, for those experiments I just simplified the signal chain and used only one source.

I have a good ear, picky about my sound but not the income to jusify a levenson or better. I never will. I love music of all types and since a teen have followed stereo review and other mags. I now follow the web. What hi-fi and try to keep up on the latest gear I can and cannot afford. Over the years I have heard really great systems.  The best I remember was a Mark Levenson mono block system playing from a lynn sondek back in the late 70's.  I have found, and only my opinion with my home systems when you have $2,000 - $3000 system it takes a significant amount of investment to get that small bump in quality of sound that makes you go wow! Significant for me is over $1,000.   But it is a personal financial decision if the "wow" is worth the double or triple price tag? Or if you can still have a thrill off the other lower priced system?  Or could this all boil down to perzdx onal taste? The next system I have will most likey last me till life end.  The preamp, power amp I use now is 40 and 45 years old. I do not need to change systems just to do it.  I simply love listening and experiencing music. I like dynamics, low end authority, crisp highs smooth mids as my ears hear it.  I  wonder if the majority of music lovers and Hi Fi enthusiasts could tell much difference between a $2'000 pair of speakers $20,000, $50,000 or $100,000? The  same goes with the electronics.  My experience has been your sound system is no better than it weakest link which is usually room accoustics. It is beyond my imagination the cost of some of these systems.  It would be a thrill and a life experience I am sure if an average guy like me could tour home like settings and hear for myself these esoteric systems.  I am so happy those more fortune than myself can share the knowlege and experience they have with excellent products and some that we also can afford. Thank you again!

Well, I don't have a single component in the system that cost me over $1k, either new or used, including cables and power cords. I count turntable/tonearm/cartridge as three components. But there are a lot of them, the components, so the total cost is not particularly low bit it is not high either. Moderate cost. And I see no reason to waist funds on anything that would not perform as good as what I have. I did have to pay for two pairs of new interconnects each almost as much as for a used turntable because I couldn't find them used, and the Purist Dominus power cord on my amp was about $2k when new.
So, the total system cost is probably around $11k, but most component were bought used.
$5k new for a system with one source ? It won't sound bad but it will sound much worse than what I got. I don't need it, better listen to computer with $200 Grado headphones.

I have put together at least a dozen inexpensive ($1000) to moderate priced (under $2500) audio systems for friends over the years.  I purchase used equipment in almost all instances, with turntables and cartridges often being purchased new.  The systems have late 1970s early 1980s receivers from Yamaha and Marantz.  They often have Dynaco or ADS speakers.  They use either download from computers for digital or older CD players of which I stockpiled dozens back in the early 2000s for really cheap ($10 - $100).  These systems get the fundamentals of the music right.  They do not pretend to be a high end system.  However, I can enjoy listening to them as do the new owners.  Note that most get into or back into LPs after inheriting or wanting to hear their collections again. 

I hate to judge too quickly but I suspect I’m bringing down the curve just a little bit with my $10 system. A thousand pardons. 😬

Knowledge is what’s left after you subtract out all that good stuff you forgot from school.

Count me among the lower-budget audiophiles, one who takes great pleasure in continuously tweaking my sub-$5,000 system to get the best out of it for not alot of money, and enjoying my music collection through it. Every small tweak in cables, mostly, has resulted in a very recognizable and positive increase in sound performance (to my ear; my wife is even hearing the same audible differences and articulating them in her own terms with no prompting or suggestions by me). I just replaced my DIY Moonshine/White Lightning speaker cables with straight-up 12 gauge, single conductor THHN speaker cables (sheathed in Techflex and a pair of cable pants; no twisting, braiding, etc.) with bare wire going to the amp binding posts and speaker inputs. Wow. I thought the Moonshine cables were a step up from the 16 gauge zip cord I started with!

I replaced my modded Hafler DH-220 amp with a B&K EX-442 Sonata a couple years ago, and THAT was a substantial increase in performance. The Hafler was good (itself a nice upgrade over the Adcom GFA6000 it replaced) but the extra 100 watts or so into 4 ohms delivered by the 442 really perks up the Maggies. My 2-channel listening rig:  
 
Parasound P5 preamp

Oppo BDP-93 used as CD transport or Pandora streaming source

Denon DVD-2900 used as a CD transport

B&K EX-442 Sonata 2-channel amp

Magnepan MMG mains

Rhythmik FG12 subwoofer (that, for being only a single sub, integrates VERY nicely with the Maggies, thank you very much)

I now use BLE Design 10 gauge Rhodium Plated power cables for the pre-amp and main amp (very reasonably priced off eBay) which were added a couple months ago. Another great addition that upped the audio revelation. The rest of my gear is powered with standard 16-gauge power cables. My interconnects are a mixture of Monster and Monoprice cables - nothing special, and the the next likely candidates for the next tweak.

With the speaker cable "upgrade" of a couple evenings ago, what was a well-defined, deep and wide soundstage with precise imaging has been fleshed out into a more forward and robust presentation. I detected a small decrease in soundstage depth with the new cables immediately after install, but at the same time, what I presume many would call the "dynamics" of the sound increased. The bass is a bit fuller and tighter (was pretty damned good before), the middle filled in substantially, and I gained height in the soundstage. I may have bought an extra decibel in volume as well. As the cables are burning in, I’ve noted that some of the immediately lost soundstage depth has returned. The overall sound image/presentation is what I would consider to be more cohesive instead of what what I would call the surgically separated sound I had prior. I believe I’m also getting a smidge more detail, though I had what I thought was excellent detail before. My wife said she hears the overall sound presentation "gel" better - it’s really helpful when you can bounce your perceptions off someone who is hearing the same differences you are. I haven’t yet sat to critically listen to most of my reference material other than a few pieces here and there, but so far I’m very pleased with the fit of the cables in my system now that they’re settling in. A completely new sounding system - which sounded pretty fine already - due to a $40 set of DIY speaker cables.

Yeah, I’m enjoying my mid-fi system immensely. I’m here, present, loud and proud.

Your 1970, $1,000 system is about $7,000 today.  I would venture that if you spend your $7,000 carefully, you can easily get a system that sounds better than the 1970 $1,000 system. 

I started out in 1970 with a system that cost about $700 - and that included a Dual turntable, 35 watt stereo amplifier, TEAC 10-inch reel-to-reel.  I built the speakers myself.

Today, that $700 system is the equivalent of about $4700.

The first job I got after graduating from college in 1971 paid $9,000.  With some bonuses the first year I made about $11,000.  Doesn't sound like much does it?  Well, in today's dollars that's equal to $70,000.

What I'm suggesting is that you have to adjust your budget thinking. The "low cost" systems of the 1970's, in reality, represent a larger amount of money spent that the "low cost" dollar amount sounds.

There are countless "budget" components out there (some are truly excellent) & excellent systems can be assembled from them.

I've subscribed to T.A.S. & Stereophile for ~35 years, also some other publications that came & went. Generally print media focus on larger/more expensive gear, multi-channel & audio/video, or both. Neither really helps me much.

But that's OK. I found many other sources for information online. Besides, I love music, always have--that's a constant motivator to maintain at least one audio system that really works for my ears. This is my life & I'm living it, no matter how crazy expensive things get out there...

My small room vinyl setup:ELAC Debut B6 speakers $180 on amazon open box warehouse sale, Emotiva Bas-X A-150 amp $240 open box on amazon, Emotiva PT-100 Preamp $300, Audio-Technica ATLP 7 direct drive turntable$360 Amazon open box, Nagaoka MP110 cart $120, Sony CD changer $18.00 w/Sr. discount at Goodwill, Polk Audio PSW10 subwoofer $70.00 Amazon open-box for a grand total of $1288. Sounds pretty good to my tired old ears.

Been reading comments. Several questions. First, Millercarban  what are these $2500, $1200 systems you put together for several impressed and happy people. Please point us in a starting point direction.

So many talk speak of great inexpensive systems that sound killer, and leave use wandering as to what the system is. What the heck, a little more info please.
Don't mean to ramble just my 2¢.

So you spent the same "Hours and Minutes" and got a heck of a lot more!

+1 for dweller’s inflation-adjusted example. And it’s accurate in my case. In 1975 I got my first job and spent $700 for a new stereo: Marantz 2230, Advent speakers and AR turntable/cartridge. In 2015 I retired, claimed a former bedroom for my music room and used it as an excuse to put in new audio equipment: Magnapan .7, Rogue Sphinx amp, Pro-Ject TT, Marantz CDP, Musical Fidelity DAC and an Apple Airport Express streamer. Cost was about $4000, or just about the same adjusted price as the 1975 kit. 

(Reprinted from one of my previous posts) "I once observed a blind evaluation where a pair of Boston Acoustic bookshelf speakers were preferred over a pair of Linn counterparts by several "experienced" listeners from within AV industry. Removing the expectancy of performance based upon price can often be very enlightening."    

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This!

Very well said.

One facet not touched on is what is 'adequate' for the listener.  I literally did not listen to much music for about 15 years, despite having a 'decent' stereo.  One day the wife asked why, and after some thought I replied because it really did not sound much like music to me. 

Fast forward about 3 years - I listen to music every day and look forward to it.  I spent the time changing my system to components that sounded like music to me.  All equipment was used, often obscure, only a few pricey bits, and the amp and speakers built by me. 

It was a real experience to listen to the system in progress, try to determine what the problems were that were nagging at the back of my mind, and figure out what was at fault and how to resolve it.  Everything got touched, and there were a number of real revelations. 

Money may help you get a good system, but it certainly won't guarantee one.  I went to a local high end hi-fi shop during one of their events, and could not believe how bad their show systems sounded.  Often it is flash rather than quality sound.  It is the job of the listener to assess that one, and money won't help.

Conrad Johnson Sonographe 250A Amp - bought used for $600
Apt Holman Pre-Amp 2 - bought used in a record shop for $150
Sony DVP-NS 999ES SACD player - bought used for $125
Magnepan 1.7i speakers bought new on sale at Take5 Audio $1500
Fantastic audio system for under $2500.  

Recently restarted my love affair with the blues and jazz. Today I’m getting a second Adcom 555mk2 power amp and will try them out in monoblock mode, so gobs of power. Need to upgrade my preamp-while the Emotiva pt-100 has the basics covered well, it’s just that; basic. Looking at the PS Audio Stellar Gain Cell preamp/DAC. All feeding a pair of ADS L810’s. My favorite sounding speakers and ones I’ll likely never sell.

EDIT: Forgot to mention using an SVS PB-2000. Competent and serves my needs well. This system is sound for a gaming pc, in near-field on this desktop, so I doubt I'll keep the monoblock in there. Instead, I'll keep the better sounding of the two and trade-in the other Adcom for the PS Audio gear.

Audio Cheapskate Sam Tellig used to review low to moderately priced gear for Stereophile. His articles were fun reading.

What was the point?

Wasn’t it that people describe their experiences with less expensive equipment?

Achieving good sound has very little to do with equipment, cables, speakers. That’s so 1980s.  Infuriating, isn’t it? 🥵

OP

I actually thought there had been a lot of good examples of how to achieve good audio on the cheap in this thread.

Maybe last few posts had drifted a bit but if you think THIS is off track you should check out a few more threads…. LOL

You aint see nothing yet......

Is it possible to stay on track.  Ha I think not. Point was lost a long time ago. 

I do not think that people who buy McIntosh put price/performance high on their list of concerns. Looks definitely account for a lot there.

uberwaltz,

Now, when I think about it, you are right. I got scammed and never realized it. I also had one beach chair (around $5) which disintegrated after a few days. One bed (upgrade from mattress on the floor for 4 years prior to that) and that was all the furniture for a couple of years. No wonder that sitting in the car was like going to the opera. On the brighter side, all my music at home got standing ovation.

uberwaltz:

Okay, I see what you meant by ’mystique’ -- McIntosh has those blue and green lights and Old English font, and it makes good products.

However, there are good used products from other brands that can be had readily for half the price of new. One doesn’t need to own McIntosh -- in fact, buying McIntosh never crossed my mind in the last fifty years.

Glupson.

That was one EXPENSIVE Wal-Mart stool!

yyzsantabarbara,

I had SONY CFD-S33 ($100 at that time) boombox as my only home system for five years. It was standing on a stool from Wal-Mart ($16) in the middle of an empty (dining) room. In those days, if I wanted to feel like I have some more refined sound, I would sit in the car in the parking lot.

I have to admit, both of those systems dragged me into music much more than many, actually any and all, more sophisticated systems I have heard since then. There is something about the moment and point in life, etc., I guess. To make it even more bizarre, at least to admit on an obsessive audiophile forum, both of those systems (boombox and that particular car) still sound just right. Live in the sense that I am alive again.

Try scanning listings for current McIntosh gear and see how many you can find at 50% retail........

That is what I term as evidence.

Not saying I agree with it but it is not a myth.

uberwaltz:

There's no evidence of that 'mystique' preclusion AFAIK.

Unfortunately the "mystique" of certain "hea" brands can preclude that type of purchase methodology.

For example McIntosh or Pass.

Buy used to maximize bang for the buck. Expect to pay about half-price. Never pay more than half-price for used except for Tannoys which retain their value.

I had the AudioEngine 2 speakers as my MAIN and only system for 5 years. Yikes, those were not fun music times but at least I had music. I was space and noise constrained living very close to the ocean. I am away from the ocean now with more space for audio, much happier musically.

And who said you can't have great sound on a budget!
3 perfect examples right there.

It's going to be interesting to see what the AudioEngines sound like. Be here Wed.

I put this together for my work space for under $400:

$100 - Dayton Audio DTA-120
$120 - Pioneer SP-BS22-LR
$100 - Apple TV2
$  50 - Monoprice cables

The old Apple TV2 has since been replaced with a Bluesound Node 2 ($500) bringing the price up to just below $800. This simple system sounds far better than expected and I can't tell you how many nice comments/compliments I've gotten on the sound over the past few years. 

In my bedroom system I use a $140 Chinese tube amp fed by a Sony blu-ray player from Target with my Zu DefHead speakers.  Sounds just as good as my living room system.  I tried much more expensive amps/DACs in that room and realized it didn't really sound any better.  

For my home (office), pair of SONOS Play 3’s and a Sub, all under $1300. The sound is freakishly good on all genre of music. Unlimited streaming via Tidal/Qobuz. 

Hogwash!
NOBODY TOLD you to "join in" at all, you need to learn to read!

It was merely a suggestion that you should consider it instead of dissing it and its MANY users so disparagingly out of hand.

If you cannot take some heat yourself maybe you should count to 200 before you post.

Let go with both barrels? nope what you did was post a truly disgracefull diatribe which you should be thoroughly ashamed of.( very probable as you have now deleted all your posts on the subject here)

Enough said on the subject but do NOT try to place blame elsewhere , you knew full well what type of reply your post would garner.

Now you have a great day dearie....

But back to our regular programming....
I decided to put my money where my mouth was and ordered a pair of the AudioEngine 2+ speakers for my computer room, at that price well worth a risk.

This will be fed from Win10 pc, will play ripped cds, real cds (using JRiver) and stream from Qobuz all over USB to the speaker direct.

Should be a tidy little system for not very many bucks at all.

I decided I did not need to add the turntable as we already have 4 tables in the house......

Gee whiz, you get MY post removed and yet your disgracefull post remains, well sort of glad because now everybody can see you for just what you are.

You are more than old enough to be held accountable for your words and in the full knowledge that said words could and most likely will provoke repercussions.

Well, who put a bee in her bonnet? Elizabeth, you are on several threads praising how much of a positive effect it had on your system when you installed many expensive upgraded duplex outlets. How about your upgraded cables? Power conditioning? Or your tweaking the internals of your speakers? Aftermarket fuses? Speaker placement? How are the things you’ve done and the money you’ve spent any different than what anyone else is doing or using to enhance his system? I don’t see anyone spitting vitriol at you for what you’ve done to enhance yours...

Elizabeth.

I sincerely hoped your attitude towards PPT and the possibility that their products do truly work may have changed somewhat.

I guess not.

You may not want to believe it but unless you think myself and many other members are on some bad sh#t, they do their intended job.
Nope, no idea how or why and could not care less tbh.

But I will leave that touchy subject alone as far you are concerned in the future.

You are all grown up and can make up your own mind.

After all it is your system .

Enjoy your music this fine day, I certainly am!

Jackson Browne playing right now.

This thread helped give me some perspective. 

I felt like I have a fairly "modest" system, especially in comparison to some I've seen at friend's houses. 

In fact, I have 4 systems, and the one I am listening to as I read this thread is my second system that I use mainly for streaming from my PC and listening to headphones.  I started adding up the list price of the components in this system and it's somewhere around $12-$13K before cables, power cords, stands, vibration control, headphones, etc.  Needless to say, there are more expensive pieces in my main system. 

Having said that, for the most part, I've cobbled all of my systems together one piece at a time, often buying used gear (so this system probably cost me more in the realm of $5-$7K) and often "flipping" pieces I don't like or that don't work well with the rest of the system for close to what I paid for them.

I ask myself when I'll be happy.  I always seem to be close, but there's always "If I just add______ or change ______, I'll be good". 

I went through this phase with my photography hobby, and over the last 2 - 3 years I've hardly bought anything.  That may be in part due to most of my purchases being for this hobby, but I think it's more that I've reached the point where I'm happy with what I have for the most part.  There are always new camera bodies, lenses, and accessories coming out, but once I reached the point where I felt like I had all my bases covered and the gear wasn't holding me back, I felt like I could stand pat for the most part.  

That's where I hope to get to with this hobby.  I think I'm close, but I see my speakers changing in my main system at some point and there may be a better integrated in my future.  For now the most pressing issue is to see about getting some acoustic treatment done as I think that my room(s) are probably holding my enjoyment back more than anything else.

+1 geoffkait

The manifesto of those who’ve not caught up. 🤗