More Power or use subwoofer to boost bass for music

@ erik_squires Hi, you seem to be on a crusade to put down something which is valid and sorts out what is a real and common bass problem. I think the recommendations, for a DBA including from myself are in response to an understandable and innocent question from the OP.

I've never put down the swarm on the technical claims, and your claim of my crusade is clear projection.  I've even seen fake / one time use accounts created to refute any other options beside the swarm are viable.
People can ask about FM tuners and some one will jump in to recommend the swarm as a fix.

It's not the technology, it is the cult and those who push it.

Best,
E

@ erik_squires  Hi, you seem to be on a crusade to put down something which is valid and sorts out what is a real and common bass problem. I think the recommendations, for a DBA including from myself are in response to an understandable and innocent question from the OP.

By making these recommendations nobody stands to gain anything except for audiokinesis who can be commended for not relentlessly punting his product, unlike some vendors.

Casting aspersions on somebodies honesty and integrity is off-field and you need to wind your neck in on this. I think the ethos of a thread like this is to contribute in some meaningful way and not thread crap.

The moral of all this is one size doesn't fit all; in fact, the very opposite, every case is unique.  Variables, among other things: size of room, construction of room (floor, walls, ceiling); viable positions for speakers; speakers themselves, etc.  Some people will achieve excellent results with 2 subs, a happy few (?) with one.  And some may need more for "equitable" bass.  The upshot: one solution doesn't suit all.

Fixing bass in a room is not always thanks to bass traps.
Having the correct mid/treble diffusion and absorption can also increase the perceived bass by reducing the mid/treble energy, plus better imaging and reduced echo. All good side effects.

In other words, you don't increase the bass, you just reduce the mid/treble energy, while bass traps reduce bass energy somewhat, they smooth it out as well.

Have you actually tried sufficiently large traps in sufficient quantity to make an audible difference? I see guys using hopelessly small bits of foam or similar that at beat could only trap dust.

@lemonhaze  Certainly! Bass traps saved the day in our room at one of the last T.H.E. Shows in Las Vegas.

But a DBA simply does it better, that's all. You do the DBA first, **then** the bass traps (if needed), since the DBA is far more effective at sorting out bass problems.

Lemonhaze is correct on this, traps do work, but most people have woefully inadequate traps which are either large, expensive, or both. That is one of the reasons for many why a bass array is a better proposition for most within the limits of what they are going to achieve. 

You touch on a point that many miss, in that you have to be careful with the materials you use. Absorbent foam can often throw off tonal balance by absorbing too much mid-highs compared to base. Foam tends to be pretty useless in bass frequencies. Sound deadening fibreglass/rock-wool is far better. In the vast majority of listening spaces, I don't think standard bass traps with massive amount of fibre/rockwool and hence enormous size, like yours are practical and hence perhaps that is why atmasphere says they literally do not work ... because for most people they don't. In most listening rooms, the only practical acoustic solution for truly controlling bass resonant modes is a Helmholz resonator and to use one effectively, you need to take measurements and install the right ones and and/or get tunable ones. Strangely enough, the most "ardent" audiophiles, rarely have this simple and low cost measurement equipment preferring to "trust" their ears.

In my opinion a subwoofer's main purpose is not LOUDER bass, but deeper bass, higher quality bass. Few "full range" speakers are truly full range. 

@atmasphere  Hi, I think we are out of phase on your one statement.

no, you don't treat a room with traps because it literally doesn't work

I have assisted many people installing broadband absorbers and bass traps, some for friends and some to make pocket money, in between jobs. In every case they have been overjoyed with the results. In my own home I used Omnimic V2 to measure the before and after results of the room treatments. The CSD plots show less ringing in the time domain and a general smoothing of all frequencies after treatment.

Measurements show that I am slightly overdamped in the upper mid-range but do actually need, I would guess, about  20/ 25% more bass trapping, however the sound I'm getting now has totally transformed the sound to the point where my wife and I are spending more time just wallowing in music and discovering new delights.

Have you actually tried sufficiently large traps in sufficient quantity to make an audible difference? I see guys using hopelessly small bits of foam or similar that at beat could only trap dust.

Nice post lemonhaze.

@ cowan21737  Hi, It would be great if it were that simple. The big peaks and dips/nulls happen at low frequency and boosting in that range will unduly tax the amplifier and the dip will largely remain due to cancellation.  Unfortunately that smoothing can really only be accomplished in 3 ways. Use multiple subs or bass traps or preferably both.

I am amazed at the hostility evident on threads like this with people who have apparently never tried something reacting negatively towards it and offering 'advice' which in some cases is clearly wrong.

The DBA concept works, and works in such a way that it seems to defy credulity. Yes its science and reading Toole, Geddes and Beranek will bear this out, although the latter is heavy going.

In a nutshell, the multiple sub approach will smooth out the bass, something that can not be achieved with EQ. I can understand the general reluctance to adopt this approach with all the imagined clutter and inconvenience. If that is the main objection then I suppose your turntable, pre and power amp/s, steamer, dac, a stand or two to house it all and then speakers and cables across the floor can also be considered as clutter. Its part of what it takes to enjoy music. A little imagination can reduce the perceived clutter by using a sub as support for a bookshelf or have a lamp or beautiful plant placed on top etc.

Bass traps will also smooth out the response. Multiple standing waves in a room combine constructively and destructively causing peaks and nulls and  the traps help with this and more importantly reduce the decay time.

Science shows that if the reflected sound is not delayed by 6ms. minimum, relative to the direct sound, the ear has trouble differentiating between the two, resulting in detail smear, so do not push the speakers towards the corners for more bass as someone earlier suggested.

Science also shows that there is a target reverberation time that is required for optimum audio reproduction. This is not guesswork, there are tables providing this information and it will be seen that it varies according to the size of the room. It demands the sound decay evenly across the spectrum by 60dB in about 400ms. for the average listening room. This is known as T60

I fully agree with a DBA but they need to obey the T60 rule. Bass traps, Big Bad Bass Traps. Untamed bass, no matter how smooth, if left to decay naturally will cause congestion and obscure detail.

Correct decay time is achieved by introducing absorption. There is much to be gained by reading up on how to accomplish this and also, if you are serious, by measuring the effects of any treatment you add. REW and Holm Impulse are free to download, then buy a suitable microphone. Will be your cheapest and most useful investment ever.

Science also shows that to absorb low frequencies (bass) it requires large space-taking devices. They of course can also be mounted hotizontaly up high against the wall/ceiling corners where they are out of the way, unless you are consuming strange substances and spend time flying around the room  :)  Do a search for DIY superchunk bass traps.  If any body thinks that little pieces of foam will absorb bass, they won't.  Look at the formula:  Lambda=velocity/frequency,  where velocity of sound is 343m/s That means 100Hz wavelength is 3.43 meters long!

I have recently installed bass traps in the two front corners of my room running vertically from floor to ceiling and measure 900mm (35.5") across. They have made a remarkable difference but measurement shows I need more!

@OP to address your question after this long winded rant, I suggest you will be fine with your existing amp. Look seriously at room treatment and get a sub or 2 or 3 or 4. Strongly recommend acquiring the means to measure your room. I see guys paying much more for a power cable and I think I can safely guarantee a treated room will have a HUGE transformative result. I have a friend with the same speakers you have driven by a 135W Bryston integrated amp producing tight, clean bass after some basic room treatments.

@millercarbon: It appears you have spent considerable time and money on your room but one picture shows some black foam looking things in the wall/wall corners and tiny pieces in the upper trihedrals. If they are intended to absorb bass then I'm afraid they will be failing in that duty. I'm making an observation, not a criticism.

One interesting and inexpensive method to adjust your frequency response humps and dips in the room is to use the built in parametric EQ function in Roon - you can even use Roon for 14 days for free to try it out, play around with the EQ and if you can boost bass in the right frequency ranges and avoid "bloat" you may find that the $129 for a year is well worth it in addition to the user interface it provides...

It you're thinking about a new pre amp you could demo the Anthem STR and play with ARC (Anthem's room correction). Also equipped with a very nice DAC. 

Good luck!

Hi very intresting tread and i want to add a little focus to another detail.

its ofcourse very importaint with the correct speaker placement but it is the same for the placement of the lisining position.
long ago Kevin Woecks from Shell/ Revel designed a smart software to calculate the first 3 standing waves in all 3 direktions x,y, z for the individual room size you plottet in.
The program even suggested some ideal ( best compromise ) placement for the speakers and the lisining position.
Beside that, you could print out the result and see how the standing waves increased or decreased when you changed positions of the speaker or lisining position.
Again in all direktions x,y and z.
This is a very nice tool to start your positioning. Depending on you speakers response in the bass you can make position corrections and actually have an idear what will happend.
Maybee some dealer still has the program installed and can help you.
If the standing waves are better controled it makes the bass feel more lifelike with better artikulation and punch beside that the midrange opends up.

I also expirenced that correct decoupling of all the equipment strongly affects the sound and in particular the bass very much but thats comon known but is actually also is very importaint what else you have in you lisining room. Every item that is in the room will somehow absorb music energy ( air preassure ) and even contribute to the sound with resonances, so you need to find a good ballance here too.

Also the placement of all the  equipment is critical and the worst place is right between the speakers where the SPL has the highest level. 

A cheap tweak is to get the equipment including all the cabels away from the floor so that there is no direct pfysical path for the vibrations between the speakers and equipment. 
Solid floor, walls and roof minimises the absorbtion of the depest bass but can be difficult to change but that might be a huge diffrence between the dealers room and yours.
I too think a pair of active subwoofer with frequency correction are a easy way the solve many of the problems in the bass range. And they have become so easy to operate via build in automation. 
 
Stay healthy and enjoy the music.

A small REL might be an intriguing option.  T/5i maybe. Their claim to fame is precise blending with existing speakers, using hi-level output and small fast subwoofers.

Tweak the room by placing the speakers and dial in a sub so that it disappears. 

@xcool - Hey if anyone wants to accuse me of being a DBA Swarm cult member, I will proudly wear that moniker. But to your point regarding room space (or lack thereof), I have just installed a DBA Swarm from AudioKinesis in a 10’ X 14’ room.
3 subs are placed up high facing the ceiling.
Just one sub is on the floor next to my desk facing forward.

If this room feels cramped, it’s certainly not because of the sub on the floor (which is a nice place for my lamp!).

No "forest" of subs nor mess of wires.

Through some fluke with Parts Express (in a positive way!) I ended up with an extra Dayton amp.

I am so impressed with the results in my small office that I will likely be purchasing 4 (or more) subs for the extra Dayton to have a second Swarm in my living room.

Hi xcool!  Definitely a subwoofer.  Realize that 250 watts Is only 10 db louder than 25 watts. EVEN IF YOU WENT TO 750 WATTS (eek!) it would only sound 6 db louder. The problem is not power, it's room placement and calling in a specialist - the sub.  Play with placement and be amazed. Keep Smiling!

My room is 10' x 14' that includes the audio system, a television, a 75" sofa, an end table, a coffee table, a big honking radiator that could heat a room twice its size and a second door located in a very poor spot. I also have a 4 sub dba. My subs are not small and not located any where near what anyone would consider an ideal location. I put them where ever they would fit, and along with the cables runs to them, not be in anybody's way or intrusive into the room. I can add a couple of chairs in the seating area if I want to.

My point to this diatribe is, even without a single sub being in an optimum location the improvement in how even the bass is over using two subs was quite noticeable. Impact and sound stage were unaffected with the additional subs other than the that everything was little more clear. IOW multiple subs make locating and integrating subs much easier.

I also felt the improvement gained by adding a third sub was greater than the improvement gained when the fourth sub was added.

If you have the floor space for one unit, then go up UP U P!!

Position as good as you can, treat as much as you can stand, without being yelled at. and go UP... A Column, a stack, hung from the rafters.
If you get them swinging, who know what you might hear.. Whole new craze, SWINGING bass, not swarming...LOL 

Regards

tgrisham:
”Multiple subs are not a cult but are scientifically proven to even out bass nodes but are they really necessary?  Where do you want to spend your limited funds?  Here is their conclusion:” Four subwoofers are enough to get the best results of any configuration tried. Two subwoofers is very nearly as good and has very good low frequency support as well.”

     I think tgrisham has it about right and, if xcool would read my previous post from 4-21-20, he will discover I was stating the same thing that Harman had concluded:
” Four subwoofers are enough to get the best results of any configuration tried. Two subwoofers is very nearly as good and has very good low frequency support as well.”

     I would first like all readers of this thread to understand that I have always adamantly refused to be a member of any club or Cult that would accept me as a member.   After all, I believe maintaining some semblance of minimum member standards is important and I prefer the sharing of knowledge and experiences between independent and honest individuals based on their personal knowledge and experience.  Isn’t this basically the purpose of this site?       My sole intent for commenting on the virtues of the 4-sub DBA concept so annoyingly often has been to spread the word about an excellent bass solution concept that I researched extensively,,finally purchased and was stunned by how extremely well it performed in my room and system.       I learned of the distributed bass array concept on another internet site, had been experimenting for years with single and dual subs trying to incorporate powerful, accurate, detailed, effortless, dynamicand realistic bass which I knew my various models of Magnepan main speakers notoriously lacked.       I realized that many Magnepan fans claim the bass is sufficient, however, I believe the accurate and realistic reproduction of the bottom two octaves is the main distinguishing trait betweeN hearing and feeling music played live at a small venue with good acoustics and a recording of the exact same musical performance played back on a home audio system in a domestic sized room.       I’m still astounded by the fact that, in over 15 years of reading and participating in thousands of threads here on a boatload of 2-ch music and HT audio reproduction subjects on a giga-plenty number of threads, I.never read a single mention of, or reference to, the DBA system concept.  Maybe it was mentioned and I missed it but I would think something this effective would be mentioned, or at least referred to, on a regular basis.
     Anyways, I want to make it perfectly clear that I definitely know high quality bass performance can be attained, at a single designated listening position,  utilizing both 1 or 2 properly positioned subs.  I know this not only from my own knowledge and experience but also from the shared knowledge and experienced numerous fellow Audiogon members.  For the benefit of newbies and any others searching for good in-room bass performance, here are some lessons I’ve learned over many years of researching, learning from others and experimenting in the same search:

1. In most rooms, achieving good bass performance is more difficult than achieving good midrange, treble and imaging performance, mainly due to their very different sound wave length and propagation patterns.

2. With speakers having separate bass,midrange and treble drivers in a single cabinet, it’s highly unlikely that the optimum room location for bass performance is so close in proximity to the optimum room location for midrange, treble and imaging Performance.  Bass performance is significantly improved with the drivers launching bass sound waves into the room can be independently optimally positioned.

3.  Virtually all humans are unable to localize sounds, perceive exactly where the sounds are originating from, that have sound wave frequencies below about 80 Hz.  Virtually all humans are increasingly adept at localizing sounds as their sound wave frequencies rise above about 80 Hz, this ability continues to be reliable up to the generally accepted high frequency human audible sound wave frequency limit of about 20,000 Hz, with this upper limit often being reduced by the aging process.

4.  Virtually all commercially available audio recordings on all formats, even the audio content on DVD and Blu-ray A/V discs, have all recorded bass below about 100 Hz mixed as mono.  Recording engineers mainly do this because they’ve known about point #3 above for at least the past 70 years.      They also do this because very deep recorded bass tones on LPs can cause the stylus to be forced out of the groove and many mass consumer grade speakers such as sound bars, mass produced speakers and TV speakers cannot handle very deep bass frequencies without seriously distorting or even being physically damaged.     Current recording technology is capable of recording bass frequencies below 100 

5.  Because of the reality of points #3 and #4 above, it’s fairly obvious that creating and configuring a home audio system capable of reproducing bass frequencies in true stereo makes little sense.  The first dilemma is that listeners, assuming they’re all humans, will be unable to localize and perceive discrete left and right bass channels.     The listeners will perceive all the discrete left and right channel bass as summed mono bass and this, by definition, prevents even the existence of the required discrete left and right channel components of a true stereo image from becoming a reality, never mind the subsequent perceived 3D stereo illusion like our brains regularly create with discrete left and right channels on sound wave frequencies above about 80 Hz.
     There is no stereo imaging below about 80 Hz, it’s not even a theoretical thing due to physics and human perceptual limitations.  The second dilemma is that, even if a human mutant was capable of localizing bass sounds with frequencies below 80 Hz and built an audio system with appropriately positioned left and right channel subs in preparation, there’s virtually no current commercially available recordings on any audio or HT format for our superhuman mutant to play on his hot-riddled audio system.
     That’s quite a ‘chicken and egg’ sequencing dilemma, right? But all hope is not  lost just yet, grasshoppers, There is one last lesson I learned along my audio journey that I sometimes like to call The Saving Grace, and most other times I just call it point#6.

6.  While it’s definitely true that we can’t localize bass sounds that have sound wave frequencies below about 80 Hz, anyone who has one or more subs in their room and systems should be able to attest with absolute certainty that they are perceiving the sound in true stereo from the deepest bass notes to the highest frequency treble notes and every and all the various frequency notes in between.  This holds true whether you understand or even believe points #3-5 above or not.
     How is this even possible with all the truthful information I mentioned in points #3-5 above?  Well, I’ll explain using my own system as an example below:

     My system is located in an approximately 23’ x15’ living room with 8’ ceilings.  I use a pair of 6’x2’ 3-way Magnepans panels as my main speakers.  I run them full range but they only reproduce high quality bass down to a rated 35 Hz +/- 3 db.  I use an Audio Kinesis Debra 4-sub DBA system to reproduce bass frequencies between 20 to 40 Hz.      A 1K watt class AB sub amp/control unit Is used to power and control the 4 relatively small passive subs that are each 12” x 14.5” x 28” and about 40lbs. Two of these subs are located along my front 15’ wall, with each located at opposite ends of this wall and about 2’ away away from the nearest corner.       The other 2 subs are positioned along the 23’ side walls, with one on each opposite side wall about 2’ away from each rear corner.  My listening seat is roughly centered on the rear 15’ wall and directly between and about 6’ away from each left right side wall sub.       So, with the above setup and me sitting in my listening chair, I perceive a three dimensional soundstage along the front of my room that usually spans the full 15’ width of the room with the soundstage front usually beginning roughly at the front plane formed by the fronts of my main speakers and extending back at least the 3‘-4’ distance from the rear of my main speakers to the front wall behind them, but I often perceive the soundstage as much deeper Zane even wider on very good recordings.       Even though I have a sub about 6’ away from me to the right and left, I perceive all of the bass as coming from the solid and stable stereo soundstage illusion existing In front of me at the opposite side of the room, beginning about 16’ away from me. and with the deep bass seeming to originate from the appropriate musical instruments within this illusionary soundstage.
     The explanation is that while the 4 subs are reproducing and launching very long and omnidirectional deep fundamental bass sound waves and notes at frequencies as low as 20 Hz in mono throughout the room, the main speakers are reproducing and launching the much shorter and more directional midrange sound waves that are the overtones or harmonics of the original much deeper fundamental bass tones reproduced by the 4 subs.  These overtones or harmonics are at frequencies that extend above the approximate 80 Hz threshold and are, therefore, able to be localized by us humans.        The final key component is our amazing brains.  They are able to associate the deep mono bass fundamental tones that we cannot localize with the higher frequency stereo overtones or harmonics, that extend beyond 80 Hz and are naturally related to the fundamental bas tones, that we can localize.       As long as the lower frequency deeper sound waves below 80 Hz and the higher frequency overtone or harmonics sound waves above 80 Hz are both detected by our ears within a few milliseconds of each other, our brains are able to process these sound waves as related and create the perception of the overall bass tone sound and exactly where within the sound stage the tone originated from.  For example, it allows the perception that there’s a double bass located at the front left side of the sound stage and the drums are located at the back center of the sound stage.
     I believe that even if I configured my system with discrete left and right channel stereo subs, and there were commercially available music formats that had  separate left and right channel bass content down to 20 Hz, my overall perception of the sound stage would be very similar to the current overall perception I’ve been enjoying for over 5 years now with my 4-sub DBA system.  I think this would be the reality since I’d stil be iunable to localize bass tones with frequencies below about 80 Hz.     Tim 

Clearthink, if you took the time to read and understand my posts (if you have the requisite knowledge), you will note that I was pointing out that simply saying the amp does not double from 8 to 4 ohms, provides no real guidance on whether it can supply adequate bass to a load that bottoms out at 3-3.2 ohms, and that all we know is the distortion is 1% at 4ohms at a given wattage (what georgehifi posted) which means we know how it behaves at some level under those conditions and absent the output impedance / damping factor, (not to mention distortion w.r.t. frequency), the conclusion he made is simply not possible.

As a matter of fact, if a link to the full range of tests was provided, as in here: https://www.soundstagenetwork.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1373:bhk-labs...
then one could see that the limitation is very low until the output hits a hard limit at which time the distortion rapidly increases. One can surmise from the shape of the graph as it hits the limit that it is primarily voltage limited. The damping factor is also very high at 8 ohms, >500 throughout the bass region, indicating no output impedance issues through the speaker impedance range. Further, the rise in distortion across the frequency range when the power is increased from 150 to 200 watts coupled with the lower distortion at 4 ohms (SMPTE) again, communicates it is primarily running into a voltage limit. The decrease in distortion from 8 to 4 ohms, also indicates that it is unlikely to have issues with the odd dip to 3-3.2 ohms. Furthermore, that 422 watts (albeit at 10% THD), is all channels driven, or about 1260 watts total.

Since you have exceptional knowledge, perhaps you can point out exactly where the errors are in my analysis, using the best information I had at my fingertips.

xcool, based on the SoundStageNetwork test, unless you are running your amplifier into clipping or there is something wrong with it, it is highly unlikely to be causing your bass issue.

Very much interesting and excellent suggestions presented here.  My only contribution to the discussion addresses what I believe to be missing.  That is, in my opinion, the OP has never actually measured whether he/she actually has a bass loss problem.  The OP discussed how the bass sounded different in the store (real surprise here) than in the home.

The first thing I would do in this case is to actually measure the frequency response of the system from the listening position.  Using free Ipad/ipod software such as Audiotools, and a test cd such as Stereophiles test cds, you can farily accurately measure where the frequency response is at the listening position.  Do that first.  See where the peaks and valleys actually are in your system.

You actually may not have a problem at all.  My experience is that yes, the room quite often negatively affects the sound.  But, you have to measure it first to know if you have a problem and where it is.

Then, work of fixing it.  Many systems actually boost bass to get a physical response from people.  "Wow, that bass sounds great".  However, that bass response you hear often isn't accurate.  I've heard systems with wayyyyy too much bass.  

Anyway, not trying to argue with anyone here, but I would measure first, then determine if I actually have a problem and then find ways of fixing it.  It may be room treatment as opposed to bigger more powerful amps or multiple subwoofers.

just a thought.

enjoy and stay safe

Or, as my experience and measurements have shown, you treat the room with some decent bass traps and wall coverings to ensure the treble/bass balance is correct but no.... that's too much ....???

@erik_squires I used to think that way too. Then I encountered the Swarm, and in looking into the theory behind it, realized that its the elegant approach to a vexing problem- reliably getting the bass right in nearly any room.


Duke didn't invent the idea- and he would be the first to tell you usually, but in this case I beat him to the punch. It comes from a guy pretty well known in audio engineering circles; Dr. Floyd Toole.


So this isn't a cult thing- its just that its an idea whose time has come, and all that's happening here is you've not read up on it. So I suggest you read or look at some of Dr. Toole's talks on YouTube. Here's a good place to start:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrpUDuUtxPM
Now this link doesn't say anything about a DBA, but it does very successfully show how the bass is so important in the way a speaker presents itself. Take the time to play the whole thing (the intro is done at about 4 minutes).


In a nutshell, you put Dr. Toole down at your own peril. He's one of the top engineers in his field. So- when someone is complaining about bass, no, you don't treat a room with traps because it literally doesn't work- although prior to running a DBA you might think it does. Its not a cult, its science. Don't be that guy who contributes to the death of science- look at how Dr. Toole developed this.

Thanks Duke 

@jl35 wrote: "when using 2 subs with floor standers, do they need to be identical or can they be close models..."  

They do not need to be the same. 

Duke

heaudio123"No "sunshine", all the numbers show is that it can deliver 350 watts approx into 4 ohms with 1% distortion. Those numbers do not show output impedance which is what would actually jmpact frequency response"

As has already been sufficiently, properly, and correctly explained you are once again completely wrong even though you are partly correct but being partly correct is not fully correct. Output impedance is only one factor in this equation which you have sought to oversimplify by overlooking others factors as has been duly noted to you hear by others you’re pretending to be some kind of electronics/audio/acoustics "expert" suggests based on you’re own summation that you "perhaps" once worked for Radio Shack and are now qualified to call your self a "conskltant" even though you have such incomplete understanding of basic, rudimentary, fundamental elements involving audio and Music Reproduction Systems.

thanks for that @audiokinesis
Duke..when using 2 subs with floor standers, do they need to be identical or can they be close models...Could i use a REL S/3 with my REL S/5 ? thanks...I also have no room for 4

Well unless someone here is interested in a professionally designed sound system, complete with 3D modelling of the acoustic field based on architectural drawings, industry measured material properties, and sufficient speaker models or they are trying to design tolerable audio into the latest miniscule consumer gadget and need to design and model the acoustic performance before finalizing the design and committing to tooling, or they need help with designing and implementing psychoacoustic experiments, or, and this would be unlikely, they need a device for medical or industrial "sonic" treatment (or measurement) then yes, I would be guilty about my motives. This is not the case, here.

The swarm was an interesting idea which is promoted by fetishists whose motives and honesty I question.

The truth is many modest systems achieved great bass with proper speaker placement, modest acoustics, and soemtimes a sub with an EQ long before the swarm and there will still be systems with great bass long after the swarm.

To hear the fanatics tell it, no one has even heard bass before them, and only they can fix it. Also, only they know about room acoustics. It's magic. Ignore all the previous work that has gone before, because it's bunk before the swarm.

Hey @audiokinesis thanks a lot for your suggestion, and also everyone else for such a colorful discussion.   :-)  

There are a lot of good information here.  One thing for sure though is I don't have the space for 4+ subs.    I definitely have space for one sub.  That is to replace my old one that I only use for movie right now.   It's sitting in the corner of my room, but partially obstructed by piece of furniture about 1 foot in front of it.   So the location is not ideal.   It will be a challenge for me to try to fit a 2nd sub in the room.   BTW, my speakers are already very close to the back wall - right around 1 foot away.    So technically, I'm already placing my speakers at a good location from the bass perspective.

Anyway,  I think I might give a new sub with EQ a try, and get myself out of this 'purist' mode :-).   Will also do some research on room treatment.   

Actually I might start with a new dedicated stereo preamp for my 2 channel music and work from there.   

There are definitely a lot of moving parts in this hobby, and a lot of trial and error to pursue the best sound.  But it's all fun stuff.  :-) 

@erik_squires wrote:

"The swarm was an interesting idea which is promoted by fetishists whose motives and honesty I question...

Please mark me down as some one who no longer believes those people are well meaning. I’ll no longer bother arguing with anyone of that ilk. You have convinced me of your intension$$$$$$$$$$$$."

For the record, NOBODY here has a financial interest in the Swarm except for me.

Erik if you feel that the main fetishist behind the Swarm needs to have his motives and honesty questioned, I’d like to hear you out.

* * * *

Xcool, I apologize for entering your thread to squabble with someone. Erik and I are not enemies (far as I know), but we do have differences of opinion on some subjects (that NEVER happens among audiophiles, right??). Imo bass traps (absorbers) are not the solution when you’re trying to increase the net in-room bass energy, but I am absolutely a fan of GIK Acoustics.

Anyway let me try to offer some thoughts about your bass situation, taking into account that four small subs probably isn’t feasible:

Your B&W’s gently roll off by about 4 dB per octave from 100 Hz down to 30 Hz before boundary reinforcement according to Stereophile’s measurements, with the rolloff accelerating rapidly below 30 Hz. In rooms with generous boundary reinforcement, this can give bass extension down to 30 Hz ballpark.

Presumably your room does not provide generous boundary reinforcement at your listening position with the speaker positioning you have. Just for fun, you might try standing at the wall in the back of the room to see how the bass sounds there.

You asked about amp or sub. I am inclined to think that sub(s) will make a bigger difference, and a more fine-tuneable one. I was a Parasound dealer for many years and think your B&W’s are well within your amp’s comfort zone.

You might consider this: Adding two smallish subs, one along a side wall (but not centered), and another along the rear wall (again, not centered). Considering your B&W’s to be bass sources down to 30 Hz, this would give you four in-room bass sources, with two of them (your B&W’s) symmetrical with respect to one another, and the other two asymmetrically placed. I can explain why this might be beneficial if you would like.

I see now that this suggestion is pretty much a repeat of heaudio123’s post above. Nice job, heaudio123.

Xcool, best of luck with your quest.

Duke
Grand Poobah of the Swarm Fetish Cult

The swarm was an interesting idea which is promoted by fetishists whose motives and honesty I question.

The truth is many modest systems achieved great bass with proper speaker placement, modest acoustics, and soemtimes a sub with an EQ long before the swarm and there will still be systems with great bass long after the swarm.

To hear the fanatics tell it, no one has even heard bass before them, and only they can fix it. Also, only they know about room acoustics.  It's magic.  Ignore all the previous work that has gone before, because it's bunk before the swarm.

Please mark me down as some one who no longer believes those people are well meaning.  I'll no longer bother arguing with anyone of that ilk. You have convinced me of your intension$$$$$$$$$$$$.

I already had made an argument for them. However in an apartment a bass array has far more chance of a successful implementation and likely less obtrusive.

Uh huh..... yeah, we have nothing at all but space in an apartment, space and money for 4 subs, and the wiring.... yeah, lots of that.

Or, as my experience and measurements have shown, you treat the room with some decent bass traps and wall coverings to ensure the treble/bass balance is correct but no.... that's too much ....???


Hahahha.  Cult.

Cheers George

BHK Labs Measurements: Parasound Halo A31 Three-Channel Amplifier

1% THD 232.8W @ 8 ohms, 352.0W @ 4 ohms

10%THD 285.0W @ 8 ohms, 422.9W @ 4 ohms

heaudio
This is a misinterpretation of how an amplifier will behave or at least an interpretation without adequate knowledge.

Once again it’s you that has the inadequate knowledge sunshine, those wattage figures from 8ohm to 4ohm clearly show a lack of good current delivery in this amp especially even though it’s not shown for obvious reasons down to 2ohm where these speakers need power.

Their room is set up for best sound!

 Get a average sub and enjoy.
no need to spend a lot.

 Newegg has An Energy sub for 112$ this weekend.
great sub, better price!

Eric, as the OP has a set of speakers that retail(ed) for about $8-10K USD, I think it is fair that true quality is his goal. He is also in an apartment, so you really want to avoid modes as that can increase the noise transfer to your neighbors and limit how much bass you can practically get.

Yeah, and you just made the argument for bass traps and room treatment.  Thank you.

Erik

I would start with a better amp and attention to placement. Regardless of power specs I think they deserve a better amp. After that I would consider sub(s). A pair of 6.5 inch drivers in a relatively small cabinet can only put out so much real bass at real volume out to the listening position.

Ralph :

 I have nothing against 4 subs. They are technically a good idea.

What I have a problem with is the cult that they are the one thing that should be discussed when a poster asks for help with a little more bass.

That is the cult. 

It's like some one who won't go to the store to buy a bag of rice because all they have is a Mercedes and the Ferrari is in the shop.

Start with 1 sub: 2 would be better: REL, Martin-Logan or JL would be great options. Doing a more powerful amp may lead to frustration. The subs will give you more flexibility and adjustments to compensate for room variations.

Are any of you listening to yourselves?? Really??

Yes, we non-cult-DBA-knowers are- however you might want to take a dive into the research. Put another way, you know how you are sounding right now??

sub will also make the mids and highs sound better.

But since statistics is science, let’s consider the “odds “ of getting 4  or as some would say 5 objects placed in a convenient location vs. one....

:)  


Of course, the science shows that multiple subs don't have to be placed perfectly for them to do the job much better...

The OP: I have 2 speakers and I’d like a little more bass, closer to what was in the showroom.

The cult: Your problem is you have 1/3 the number of speakers you need!! You must add 4 more, bring it up to six!!!

Are any of you listening to yourselves?? Really??

In an attempt to be helpful to the OP I want to present the research data from Harman regarding multiple subs. The research is extensive with computer modeling and multiple variations in numbers and placement. It’s easy find online and well worth the reading. Multiple subs are not a cult but are scientifically proven to even out bass nodes but are they really necessary?  Where do you want to spend your limited funds?  Here is their conclusion:
” Four subwoofers are enough to get the best results of any configuration tried. Two subwoofers is very nearly as good and has very good low frequency support as well.”

The midrange is where most of the fidelity in reproduced recordings lies, in my opinion. Proper speaker positioning and an excellent midrange would be my first goal. If money is left over considering amplification, room treatments, cabling and two matched subs, then get two more. But as their research shows you can do very well with two high quality matched subs.