More Power or use subwoofer to boost bass for music

Persephone: "I disagree with the suggestion to moving the speakers closer to the wall."
     Persephone accurately and succinctly explained why this is true by stating: "That may give you more bass, but it will adversely affect the soundstage. "

atmasphere: "If you run subs moving them closer to the wall is very practical!"
        Atmasphere is correct whether he’s stating moving the subs closer to the wall may be very practical (either to reinforce the bass output or to keep them out of the way) or if he’s stating that moving the main speakers closer to the wall is very practical ( either to optimize their midrange, treble and stereo imaging or to keep them out of the way).
      Typically however, positioning the subs closer to the wall and corner results in more bass and positioning the main speakers closer to the wall results in poorer midrange, treble and stereo imaging performance being perceived at the listening seat, especially the quality of sound stage depth.

     I agree with both of these statements and they support my statements on my previous post about the inherent problem with obtaining, at a single designated listening seat, both very good bass performance AND very good midrange, treble and stereo imaging from a floor standing pair of speakers.
     The main problem is that all the drivers are permanently affixed, usually in a vertical configuration, in the same cabinet and the bass drivers therefore lack the very important ability to be separately and independently positioned in the room, and in relation to the listening seat, to optimize the bass performance along with the midrange/treble drivers lacking the ability to be separately and independently positioned in the room, and in relation to the listening seat, to optimize the midrange, treble and stereo imaging performance. One or the other can be optimized but not both since it’s highly unlikely that both are optimized at the exact same footprint location in the room.

     I believe most floor standing speaker owners position them in relation to their listening seat to optimize the midrange, treble and stereo imaging performance and just accept the less than optimal bass performance resulting from this compromise.
     My suggestion is that there’s a better solution and that floor standing speaker owners would be very pleasantly surprised by the significantly improved overall performance quality they would gain by incorporating at least a pair of good quality, properly positioned and configured subs into their systems.
     Of course, the bass power, impact and dynamics will definitely be improved but they’ll also clearly perceive the bass detail and realism as being significantly improved along with a greater sense of bass ease, naturalness, seamless integration with the main speakers and an improved overall stereo sound stage illusion being presented.
     Utilizing multiple subs in a system provides a higher capacity of bass quantity to meet any source demands but also provides significantly improved bass quality no matter the source or volume level chosen.

Tim


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I would disagree with the suggestion to moving the speakers closer to the wall.

If you run subs moving them closer to the wall is very practical!

I would disagree with the suggestion to moving the speakers closer to the wall.  That may give you more bass, but it will adversely affect the soundstage.  When I changed the power cord on my Audio Valve mono blocks and my Ref 6 to PAD Diamond I had deeper and tighter bass. That really improved the bass on my Bella Voce speakers.  Also, the speaker cable you use will also help. 

Not seeing too much on the JL Audio subwoofers. I think them and REL seem to have top experience and engineering know how.

I guess I would ask " how is the mid range " ?

save $
look at the BIC America subs.
inexpensive and a 7 yr warranty on driver.

 Are the the top tier in subs,...?no!
 They will play loud and add some serious bass. Powered subs, 
wont use your amps power.

Hello gweedoargus,

     Your description makes perfect sense to me. The B&W 804 d3s are no doubt a very high quality pair of speakers with impressive bass extension down to 20 Hz +/- 3 db. However, I still think you’d be pleasantly surprised by how much a good quality pair of subs would improve the performance and enjoyment of your system.
     The main reason I’m confident in this belief is only due to the fact that the 804s share a problem common to all full range tower speakers; the bass, midrange and treble drivers are all contained in the same cabinet. The main issue with this configuration is that it’s highly unlikely that the same stacked vertical footprint position of the drivers in the room, and in relation to the listening position, is optimum for midrange, treble and stereo imaging performance AND optimum bass performance.
     It’s much more likely that the position of the midrange and treble drivers in the room, and in relation to the listening position, for optimum midrange, treble and stereo imaging performance are at an entirely unique. precise and separate stacked vertical footprint location than the position of the bass drivers would be in the room for optimum bass performance.
     So, I’m suggesting you may want to try adding at least a pair of good quality subs to your room and system sometime if you’re feeling curious and adventurous. I think you’ll be surprised at what a significant upgrade this would make to your system for both music and HT.

Tim

I’m using a pass labs xa25 to drive my 804 d3s. No problems with bass. The bass is controlled, deep and detailed. The xa25 loves pushing those loads being stable down to 1 ohm along with a damping factor of 500. Positioning from the front wall was key for me also. The bass power would vary by each 1/4". It took time to dial it in. Literally, 3/4" was the difference between too much bass that began to smear the mid-range slightly to having the perfect bass for me. My speakers are toed in, so measuring from the inside corner of each speaker to the wall is 31". (30.25" was too much bass, 31.50" was too little bass). Measuring from the tweeter to the wall perpendicularly is 33.5". Measuring in parallel from the tweeter to the wall is 35". I do use bass traps on the 4 corners of my front wall. I have no need for rear bass traps because my back wall is 35’ away. I also use isoacoustic Gaia ii for the 804s which tightens up bass. This is my experience with the 804s.

danvignau:”I use matched amps and pre-amps for my older 803's and subs. This gives me control of the bass without creating out of phase signals. It also allows me to tailor the bass for the recording. “

     If your tailoring the bass for individual recordings, that indicates to me the subs are are either not positioned properly in relation to the listen seat or the primary controls on one or more subs, volume, crossover frequency and phase, are not properly set.  Setting these 3 primary controls properly on each sub is very important for seamlessly integrating subs into a system and room, just as important as properly locating each sub in the room in relation to the listening seat.       It’s also usually the most time consuming step When incorporating subs into the system and room.  This is due to the reality that a good sampling of musical tracks, of different genres and containing significant bass content, need to be played to determine the optimum settings on these controls that provides the most natural sounding bass.
     If adequate time is not devoted to thoroughly completing this step and arriving at the optimum balance of bass settings for all subs that sounds very good on all music genres listened to, individuals may feel a need to adjust these settings prior to or even during playback.  Who would willingly accept doing that?

Tim 

Also, you might want to use your amp for the subs, then get a less powerful amp for the 804's, if price is a consideration.  100 watts will easily power them, as long as you are using subs.

I use matched amps and pre-amps for my older 803's and subs. This gives me control of the bass without creating out of phase signals. It also allows me to tailor the bass for the recording.  Many old albums really open up when the bass is not relegated to a recording mixed for what a 1960's 35 wpc amp could produce, or a modern AVR receiver.  Powered subs with frequency roll off controls, as well as tone controls, alter the phasing, thus negating B&W's primary design philosophy.  They are also hard to adjust for each recording. 

That's Fletcher Munson equal loudness curves you're talking about. Duke has said pretty much the same thing. One consequence of this is its important when setting sub levels to do it at a level you care most about. 

One thing that usually isn’t taken into account is the fact that, regardless of power, placement or how great we think our hearing is, human hearing is Not equally sensitive to all frequencies at lower to moderate volumes. So if you are speaking of low bass down near 30Hz, you would have to be listening at a nominal volume of about 80db before the bass seemed adequately loud and for frequencies approaching 20Hz, the listening volume would have to be up near 100db (considerably louder than I care to listen, any more). On the high end, frequencies perceptively balance out at about 60db. Thus was the purpose of the old loud button on many of the vintage amps.
One advantage to a good, well integrated sub/subs, is the ability to boost the bass volume to accommodate listening at moderate volume levels, without loosing the bottom end bass. It could be that you were listening to the music, at the dealer, at a louder level than it seemed. Not to take away from the other suggestions, but just another case for a good, well integrated sub/subs...Jim

My thoughts: 1. The speakers can sound "punchier" at the dealer because they usually crank-them-up. Since a typical Magnolia room is larger than a normal home room, they can play a lot louder without overloading the room. Being placed close to the wall enhances the bass. 2. Are the foam plugs in the ports? This reduces bass quantity. 3. I'm a proud 804D3 owner and, yes, these speakers need reinforcement.

     For HT and LFE, it may be possible to adjust the crossover frequency through your surround processor, DVD or Blu-ray player.  I know both my Oppo 105 and 205 Blu-ray players have this capacity, yours may too.

Tim

 

The information I found on their website is that the low pass filter doesn't apply to LFE.

I could be mistaken here, but I believe that REL is using the low pass filter in LFE mode, it's just not adjustable. It is permanently set at 120hz.

Check out HSU & Martin Logan subs.  At less than $1000, you will get a remarkable sub.

Sub woofer gives you more flexibility and maybe cheaper.  It would be cheaper because you need to increase your amp power by a factor of 2 to 3 to really make a difference in the bass for those B&Ws..  This will almost always cost more.

Furthermore, a sub is specifically designed to have special speakers/motor which can handle more power.

Hey @noble100 xcool means I used to be cool, but no longer.  But I'm older and wiser though.  :-)

Xcool wrote: "Later that evening the building manager sent out an email to all residents that he received a complaint from some residents that they hear very loud bass music coming through their wall..."

Also they both seem to reduce vibration to the floor.  I wonder by reducing that, will it also reduce vibration to the wall.   Do you have any suggestion on reducing vibration to the wall behind and to the side of my subwoofer?  Would acoustic panel or bass trap help?

   

What about THE GRs OB, are you interested in good bass that won't threaten your neighbors sanity, and the same floor space or smaller?Look into it.. It works very well. Room treatment, and again sub lite outside, pretty punchy inside...Works very well. Not a sealed unit. It pressures the room from both sides of the cone..Harmonics are less of an issue..

Regards

Guys!, his amps aren't up to it in the bass with that kind of load, sure they're 250w at 8ohm, but they start s*****g themselves even into 4ohms let alone 2ohms!! which is the kind of load the 804 d3's give in the bass.

232.8W @ 8 ohms, 

352.0W @ 4 ohms

Look at the Stereophile 804 review, the reviewer used the same amps and complained also about the bass also.

Cheers George 

Hello xcool,
     Does “xcool” mean you were cool previously but not currently, or does it mean you’re multiples of cool?

     One option to significantly reduce bass vibrations reaching the floor below is to place the subs on a slab of a solid material that will reflect the vibration-inducing deep bass sound waves rather than vibrating itself and transferring the vibration to the floor below.  I know slabs of granite are good to use and remnant pieces at reduced prices are often available from local retail stone vendors.       The bass sound waves launched from the passive bass driver, which are typically used just to vent excess air pressure from inside the sub ‘s cabinet, strike the very hard surface of the granite and are redirected out into the room through the spaces between the bottom of the sub and the surface of the granite.
     I believe Subdude platforms do the same thing, but I’ve never used them, so I’m not certain.

Tim 

Thanks for the recommendation.  I was looking at both REL and SVS.   I really like the REL feature.  It can accommodate both 2 channel music with a low pass filter setting, and Home Theater usage with a LFE input.   The information I found on their website is that the low pass filter doesn't apply to LFE.  It only applies to 2 channel input.   This is exactly what I want.   However, my only concern with REL is their passive downward firing drive.   I'm really trying to reduce any vibration onto the floor.

As with the SVS subs, they just seem to get a lot of good reviews, and reasonably priced.  So it seems to be a good option.   But according to the answer I got back from their support team, the low pass filter does apply to both 2 channels input and LFE - which is not what I want.

Hi Duke, thanks for the suggestion on Auralex SubDude.   I wonder how they compare to the SVS SoundPath Isolator that I just ordered.

I have the SVS isolators under my SVS subs and they did help tighten up the bass a bit. My results were fairly subtle. I believe that they are designed to reduce the transmission of the vibrations of the sub cabinet itself, to the floor. I don't think they will have any impact on the airborne vibrations created by the speakers. I have no experience with Auralex.

If you like fat bass the REL is a good choice, if you like punchy bass I would go with some one else like Rythmik or SVS, though there are many other brands that would work also.

Xcool asked,

" Do you have any suggestion on reducing vibration to the wall behind and to the side of my subwoofer? Would acoustic panel or bass trap help? "

To the extent that the vibrations in the walls are structure-borne, the SVS SoundPath Isolator should help.

As for reducing air-borne vibrations by using an acoustic panel or bass trap, I don’t know how effective that would be, nor the best way to go about it.

This is much more likely to fall within @erik_squires’ area of expertise. Erik?

Duke

On topic... I have an Auralex subdude in my bedroom and while it seems to help with isolating the bass to that room, don't expect miracles. Bass waves carry. How many times have you heard the bass from a car half a block away? If it's too loud, others are going to hear it. 

@erik_squires It's unfortunate when one or more people suggest there's only one "best" way to get good bass. It's also unfortunate that you've seen fit to classify all proponents of a multiple sub setup as belonging to a "cult", especially since you display "fanboy" tendencies towards certain products, in particular, GIK Acoustics.

It's a bit of hello Mr. Pot, meet Mr. Kettle.

I use 4 subs in my main 2 channel system (5 for movies). I also have room treatments (not GIK). Going to a four sub setup was transformational and one of, if not the most noticeable upgrades I've made. 

I have three other systems, each of which has ONE subwoofer. For my goals for those systems and the rooms they are in, one sub is enough. I've also shared more than once on this forum that one of the best systems for bass that I've ever heard was at a friend's house. He uses two subs and extensive room treatments. 

When it comes to bass, there's more than one way to achieve great results. Besides, "great" is subjective...

Hi Duke, thanks for the suggestion on Auralex SubDude.   I wonder how they compare to the SVS SoundPath Isolator that I just ordered.  They are both highly rated in Amazon.

Also they both seem to reduce vibration to the floor.  I wonder by reducing that, will it also reduce vibration to the wall.   Do you have any suggestion on reducing vibration to the wall behind and to the side of my subwoofer?  Would acoustic panel or bass trap help?

Thanks.  

Hello @erik_squires ,

     Well, I guess we’re all fan boys of something. You seem to be a big fan of acoustic room treatments in general and GIK in particular. I’ve read many of your posts over the years praising both. I’ve always considered your posts interesting, informative and earnest. I’ve always just assumed you had treated your room most likely with GIK products, experienced very positive results and thereafter often recommended them to others due to their efficacy.  I never thought of accusing you of having ulterior motives.
     Have you ever considered that members of your imaginary Swarm Cult may have just independently followed similar paths as you after experiencing very positive results with their DBA systems?

Tim

Xcool wrote: "Later that evening the building manager sent out an email to all residents that he received a complaint from some residents that they hear very loud bass music coming through their wall..."

My guess is that the heavy passive radiator moving up and down was effectively transmitting its vibrations into the floor itself, whereas if that motion had been in the horizontal plane the vibration transmission to the floor would have been much less.

In addition to avoiding vertical cone motion, you might consider the use of an isolation platform such as the Auralex SubDude. It is designed to very significantly reduce the transmission of vibrations to your floor.

Air-borne vibrations are more of a challenge because that’s what sound waves are. One possible strategy would be to place the subwoofer as close to the listening position as possible, so that you don’t have to turn it up quite as loud.

Duke

Thanks @jl35 @bonsai15 for suggesting REL subwoofers. I just checked out their website and they seem very nice. I was thinking about trying out SVS SB16-Ultra. It seems to get a lot good review. But somehow REL got mentioned quite a bit in this discussion, so I will trust your recommendations.

One thing about REL that might be a show stopper for me is the down firing passive driver. Let me just share a quick story with you guys. Just a couple of days ago, I decided to give my old 1990’s era DefTech subwoofer (250 watt & 15" driver) a try and hook it up to play music with my B&W speakers, and I also pushed the subwoofer farther into the corner of my living room. I was messing with the gain switch a little to get some good thumping out of it. Later that evening the building manager sent out an email to all residents that he received a complaint from some residents that they hear very loud bass music coming through their wall, and reminded us this is against condo rule. I’ve been using my subwoofer for TV and movies for years and this is the first time I get a complain so I need to be very careful going forward. I think pushing the subwoofer farther into the corner might be the main culprit. Anyway, I immediately ordered a pair of SVS SoundPath Isolator from Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00NCSQ5GK/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 Does anyone have experience with these? Do you know if they work?

Anyway, back to the REL subwoofer, I’m afraid the downward passive driver might be a problem in my situation. Unless maybe I can stack it on top of my old sub.

@erik_squires wrote: "Maybe there’s a different way for swarm fan boys to behave more respectfully towards others and try to answer the OP’s question without asking him to triple the number of speakers in his home??"

"Swarm fan boys" are not perfect either, and neither am I. I have seen "swarm fan boys" come across as mocking other solutions, and hope I have not done that. But I didn’t see them labelling others as a "cult" or accusing them of dishonesty.

Erik: "Invariably, the swarm people attempt sideline any other solution that is not swarm."

"Invariably"? This is an exaggeration. As far as "sidelining any other solution", that’s a judgment call; could such terminology be applied to your posts advocating room treatments? In practice nobody has time to make a truly comprehensive post so we focus on a few things.

"My perception of the intent of the swarm promoters has gone from thinking they are merely happy fanboys to something entirely different as a result of enough interactions."

This is innuendo, and assumes the worst about a whole group of people based on interaction with a few. And in case you are implying that there is some sort of "promotion" effort by "swarm promoters", I have NEVER asked any of my customers to either post, or not post, anything. I seldom even thank them.

"The combination of lack of acceptance of previous knowledge and science as well as the attempt of fitting into every system..."

These are exaggerations.

"... and random people showing up trying to make up reasons why only swarm could possibly work".

I have not noticed these alleged posts by random people, can you point them out? And did they REALLY say that "only swarm could possibly work"?

"... and misquoting experts..."

That’s possible, but not necessarily evidence of nefarious intentions. Can you show me?

"I cannot imagine this type of behavior as coming from sincerity anymore."

When we assume the worst about someone else, who does that say the most about, them or us?

"Maybe there’s a way the swarm cult can stop thinking I’m a fool who would not notice?"

Name-calling, and assuming facts not in evidence.

Erik, I do not question your integrity. I think you are sincerely pissed off, and I think you are seeing what you want to see. I also think that’s a choice, but of a type we tend not to be aware of.  I think you are defending something which does not need defending. 

"Just spit balling."

Me too.

Duke

(At RMAF 2017, Schitt was displaying in the room next to ours. I proposed a trade: a pair of my speakers for one of their amps. They declined; apparently my speakers aren't worth a Schitt... sorry, couldn't resist... )

@audiokinesis - Well Duke I think you lucked out, sometimes the best trades are the ones that are never made. Had you gone through with it you probably would have felt like Schitt afterwards.

@erik_squires - I feel you. In fact there is one particular "swarm" user whose posts I entirely skip now.

As a happy DBA user I don't propose it is the answer to all things bass related, but I also don't feel room treatments is the answer either (and let's face it @erik_squires you do propose it as a solution quite a bit and in the process always mention GIK - whose stuff has never wowed me). In fact in my opinion room treatments invariably do more harm than good, mainly because of the suspect claims some manufacturers out there make regarding what their products can actually do. Getting rid of my room treatments and replacing them with a DBA is probably the best thing I ever did. Don't even get me started on DSP.

Duke is one of the good guys around here and I would like to thank him for his assistance in helping me pick out some new 10" drivers for my next DBA adventure when he had no financial gain in doing so.

Maybe there is a different way for you to perceive people who advocate a technology which you concede has merit?

@audiokinesis

Maybe there’s a different way for swarm fan boys to behave more respectfully towards others and try to answer the OP’s question without asking him to triple the number of speakers in his home??

I did not get to this opinion randomly or without experience. Invariably, the swarm people attempt sideline any other solution that is not swarm.

My perception of the intent of the swarm promoters has gone from thinking they are merely happy fanboys to something entirely different as a result of enough interactions. The combination of lack of acceptance of previous knowledge and science as well as the attempt of fitting into every system, and random people showing up trying to make up reasons why only swarm could possibly work and misquoting experts has really worn my nerves thin.

I cannot imagine this type of behavior as coming from sincerity anymore. Maybe there’s a way the swarm cult can stop thinking I’m a fool who would not notice? Just spit balling.

This has always been there achilles heal. They lack in the low octaves.

Only if driven by amps that can't handle their loading (impedance +negative phase angle) in the bottom end with copious amounts of current,  which nearly all the mid/upper end models have.

Cheers George

Hello.
Sorry that you have bought a pair of B&Ws.
This has always been there achilles heal. They lack in the low octaves. I know of many B&W owners that have had to add sub woofers to fix this issue.But saying that as you said you are a purist and i used to think the same as you. But the REL subs is the answer as they are faster than nearly all others out there. The key is you need 2. Caution if you go to cheap subs this will head you down the path of no return.
Regards Alex

You know I read your question again. What about a single double 8" or 12" OB  servo, like GR Research.  That would fit the bill of purest, a little better.  The H or W frames pressure the room in a way that's not near as intrusive as a conventional bass systems They can reach an honest 20hz, if the signal is there, though. A cleaner, more precise bass.  Maybe purest, can also mean "The Bass lite crowd", not everyone need heart stopping bass, ay?

Regards

Xcool wrote:  

" Actually, overall it didn't sound that great in the Magnolia show room.  I thought the speakers were very bright, but it did leave an impression of good bass.  I vaguely remember it was driven by a Rotel Integrated. " 

My understanding is that Rotels have tone controls, so it is POSSIBLE that the bass (and perhaps also the treble) were boosted when you heard the B&W's.  Boosted bass & treble tends to sound impressive in a quick audition, so back in the day when tone controls were the norm rather than the exception it was something we had to watch out for. 

Schitt makes a very nice and nicely-priced external tone control unit called the Loki which you could add to your system. 

(At RMAF 2017, Schitt was displaying in the room next to ours.  I proposed a trade:  a pair of my speakers for one of their amps.  They declined; apparently my speakers aren't worth a Schitt... sorry, couldn't resist... ) 

Duke

I wonder if a 128kbps file even has deep bass...I’m one of the lucky ones whose system sounds great with one sub, and the REL made a big difference over my large floor standers, so would definitely recommend an REL trial...the S models have just been replaced, so there are some good deals out there...

Hi @jl35 that experience of hearing punchy bass out of the B&W 804 D3 was almost 2 years ago in the Magnolia studio of Best Buy.  I wasn't super serious at the time of buying a new pair of speakers, but just happened was able to listen to them that day.   Actually, overall it didn't sound that great in the Magnolia show room.  I thought the speakers were very bright, but it did leave an impression of good bass.  I vaguely remember it was driven by a Rotel Integrated.  I think the source was my iPhone playing 128 kbps AAC files.   Wonder if the compressed AAC music actually generated some good bass.  :-)

I eventually bought the speakers a couple of months ago from a local dealer after auditioning them against a pair of Sonus Faber Olympica Nova II.

Hey @noble100 no need to apologize,  I appreciate all the suggestions and opinions offered by many of you,  and learned quite a bit from this thread.

Cheers!

we've also lost track of the fact that the OP was satisfied with the speakers bass at the dealers...so the difference is his set-up/room and equipment...I would certainly start by going back to the dealer and see what equipment was being used and recheck their set up...now if you demoed them there but bought them elsewhere they won't be much help...

It seems like this thread has drifted away a bit from helping the OP, xcool, with his specific bass issue and toward how to attain very good in-room bass performance in general. I think I’ve contributed to this drift off topic as much or more than anyone and I apologize to xcool for doing so.
      The 4-sub DBA concept has provided the best bass quality I’ve ever experienced in my system and room. Because of this, and the fact that the DBA concept has the capacity to work equally as well in virtually any room and seamlessly integrate with any pair of main speakers, I’ve felt a responsibility to spread the word to fellow music and a/v equipment enthusiasts on the efficacy of the DBA concept.      I realize that some may attribute my enthusiastic advocacy of the DBA concept to ulterior motives but I can’t control that. I can only honestly state that I have none and my intent is solely to share my very positive DBA experiences. I’m actually very surprised with the apparent lack of awareness and usage of the DBA concept here on Audiogon. It’s not exactly a new concept and it’s effectiveness has been consistently proven both scientifically and anecdotally.

     However, contrary to popular belief I also realize and believe that a 4-sub DBA may not be the best bass solution for everyone, For example, the OP xcool.
     The first consideration is that he lives in an apartment, with limited space and likely lease restrictions on allowable modifications he can make within it. While 4 subs would undoubtably offer the best bass performance, they may not be practical for him. But I believe even a single very good quality larger sub with rated bass extension down to 20 Hz, and optimally positioned in the room in relation to the listening seat using the crawl method, would result in a significant improvement in bass performance. It may even be possible to create a mini-DBA effect at your listening seat utilizing just 3 bass transducers in your room. One woofer in each of your main speakers equals 2 and the woofer in the added sub makes the total number of bass transducers launching bass sound waves into your room equal 3. The sub crawl method of locating the sub would ensure you don’t position the sub at a specific room position that results in standing waves and poor bass at your listening seat.
     Having the added sub also capable of outputting bass down to 20 Hz could result in the perception that the overall bass extension of your system has been deepened. I want to be clear that I’m not stating this will definitely work in your room, just that it may be worth a try. I don’t think it would be difficult to find a dealer willing to let you borrow a larger, very good quality sub capable of bass extension down to 20 Hz.      The second consideration is that your using B&W floor standing speakers, with the bass, midrange and treble transducers all in a single cabinet, likely arranged vertically. Assuming your positioning your main speakers like most individuals do, in a triangular configuration in relation to the listening seat to optimize the mid/treble and stereo imaging performance, the positioning of the bass drver(s) in each speaker have not been optimized in the room and in relation to your listening seat for optimum bass performance perception at the listening seat.      In other words, because the bass producing woofer drivers in your main speakers are not capable of being independently positioned In your room, it’s not possible to optimize the bass quality at your listening.seat. This is an issue with virtually all floor standing full range speakers. By optimizing the mid/high frequency and stereo imaging performance at the listening seat via precise locating of the speakers in the room and in relation to the listening seat, the bass performance is compromised since the bass drivers are fixed in place, typically below the midrange driver and tweeter, and they cannot be precisely located in the room and in relation to the listening seat to optimize bass performance at the listening seat. Even if your floor standing speakers have multiple woofers or built in self amplified subs and had a rated bass extension flat down to 20 Hz, this high quality bass will not be perceived at the listening seat if they are not positioned in your room and in relation to your listening seat to optimize bass performance.
     The above explains why I suggested in a prior post the use of 2 relatively small subs that can be independently positioned in your room for optimized bass performance at your listening seat such as the SVS-SB-1000 or similar Hsu subs with rated bass extension close to 20 Hz, may be the best bass solution for you.      You would need to optimize the positioning of one sub first in your room using the crawl method and then optimize the room location of the other sub, with the first sub operating, and again using the crawl method.      In general, 2 subs will perform and sound about twice as well as a single sub. The benefits of using 2 subs are that both subs are operating well below their limits, the bass is smoother, faster, more detailed, with a general sense of ease and the bass will be better integrated or blended with your main speakers. You also have the option of using whatever pair of subs you’d like that meet your preferences and budget.

Best wishes,
Tim

A lot of good answers. Sounds like a room problem. Two basic problems, speakers not coupling to room walls or bass cancelation based on room size relative to listening area. If moving your speakers don't do the trick, then try adding a sub. Check dealer for return policy. A single sub should provide enough punch and accuracy to satisfy most tastes.

I have had very good results with 2 REL T9i subs (that’s 9" plus passive radiators). I use the high level speaker outs and let REL’s internals do their magic. (On movies the REL "listens" to the Sub LFE output, but it’s not stereo.)
Very nice lower bass that enhances mid-range imaging. Flat to <25hz with few nodes as I roam about with my sound level meter, or just my ears. I use the old Stereo Review Test Record for node checking, then music.
Chest thumping impact on movies, but it’s the stereo listening that is really enhanced.
I followed the REL instructions for setup, which were unlike any technique I had used before. Then it’s just dialing in levels.
(Parasound A51, Dynaudio floorstanders + surounds. 18X35 room. I also have a window wall. Wood floors, area rugs and some minor wall treatments.)
Trying to EQ flat bass below 50hz on those B&W will drive them into directionality, if not distortion. Letting the REL’s do their internal crossover reduces overdriving the main speakers and they will be happier.
I drive 85dB as reference, without listener fatigue (the true measure of distortion(s)). That’s way too loud for an apartment.
Little subs, easy placement. Smaller REL’s in a small room would probably work well, too.
I have never liked big subs for stereo listening, although I have spent time with HSU and SVS. Great for "I have a SUB!" display to visitors but marginal for pure stereo. (Also had a Hartley 36" for fun.)

Atmasphere:”But a DBA simply does it better, that’s all. You do the DBA first, **then** the bass traps (if needed), since the DBA is far more effective at sorting out bass problems.”


Hello atmasphere,

     Based on my experience using the Audio Kinesis Debra 4-sub DBA for the past 5years, I believe your advise is exactly correct. I didn’t plan on buying the DBA first and then add bass traps if needed, I just happened to inadvertently follow the advice you’d give 5 years later. I used my 4-sub DBA for abut 4 years with absolutely no room treatments except wall to wall carpeting. I currently use it in a fully GIK treated room per their suggested reasonably expensive room treatment plan following a free room analysis.      Their plan called for 2 of their fairly large TriTrap bass traps stacked in all 4 corners of my room, four 2’x2’x 5.5” thick bass trap wall panels. GIK’s plan also called for about sixteen 4’x2’ acoustic wall panels installed that are a combination of strategically placed absorption and diffusion panels.
     My main focus for having a professional room analysis done was to determine whether room treatments could make even further incremental improvements to my system’s midrange, treble and imaging quality. I was very concerned, however, with GIK’s suggestion of fairly extensive bass traps in my room. The bass quality in my room with the DBA in use was already, at that time, what I considered near state of the art without a single bass trap. I definitely wanted to avoid compromising my system’s excellent bass quality by deploying bass traps. After receiving assurances from GIK and A K’s Duke Lejeune that was traps would not negatively effect the DBA’s bass quality, l decided to include them all in my room treatment install.
     They were correct, I’ve noticed no negative effects in The DBA’s bass quality with a full complement of acoustic room treatments, including bass traps. I have noticed significant improvements in my system’s overall clarity, articulation and imaging, mainly in the midrange and treble range, I believe the bass traps helped extend this increase in overall clarity and detail down into the bass region but it’s difficult to claim with any certainty, since the bass was already very clear and detailed prior to adding the bass traps.      I can state with certainty that the added bass traps have had no negative effects on the DBA’s bass quality in my room. I actually think your previous comment, I believe I read on another thread, perfectly sums up my opinion on the DBA concept in actual application: “The DBA is an elegant bass solution”. Well stated and true.

Tim

The question of the day which I believe George came close to asking you is what system was driving the 804’s when you were listening to them in the store? Also did you ask them to make sure the subwoofer was off when they demo’d the speaker’s? A lot of advise offered and some were excellent advice but start at the beginning of why you bought the speakers in the first place and what was driving them. You may be shocked on what you find out especially if you bought them from Best Buy Magnolia. Some of the sales force is not the best when it comes to operating their demo systems (Like turning off the subwoofer while the speakers are being demo’d. Just a thought.

lemonhaze62 posts04-24-2020 4:58am

which in some cases is clearly wrong.

I took a paragraph to explain what you did in a chapter.

I'm getting better.  or am I? LOL

But I like "Lemon Haze", the Haze brothers, THC Titans for sure.


I'm with Eric in a lot of this. Squat, grunt ,and crap out another sub/unit, anywhere works!!  It my work but sure muddies the waters for me..

It may improve the SQ of that system, but I question where that system was before swarm/DBA.  

I can honestly say, my old way is better, not by a small margin either.
Less distortion, and far more directed. I don't want BASS everywhere, I want it at the listening position(S) not everywhere in the house and the room for that matter..Control that sh#t.. get rid of it, don't make it..

Have any of you measured the bass distortion with these swarm rich environment. It's gotta be off the chart, unless it's all digital. What's the fun in that, anyone can do that. There is a trick or two though., and NO digital correction.

I have 6 units, usually 2 bass columns and one or two sub units, if at all. Sometimes when the kids are over, I'll flip off the columns and used the 4 lowriders, KID stuff, BIG BOOM, in the ROOM..local PD has been here to give it a listen..LOL, they all like it too, bunch of kids, too from what I see.

Regards

Posted by Erik Squires in this thread:

" Jesus, the 4 sub cult is strong here. "

" The cult: Your problem is you have 1/3 the number of speakers you need!! You must add 4 more, bring it up to six!!! "

" What I have a problem with is the cult that they are the one thing that should be discussed when a poster asks for help with a little more bass. "

" Are any of you listening to yourselves?? Really?? "

" Hahahha. Cult. "

" The swarm was an interesting idea which is promoted by fetishists whose motives and honesty I question. "

" To hear the fanatics tell it, no one has even heard bass before them, and only they can fix it. Also, only they know about room acoustics. It’s magic. Ignore all the previous work that has gone before, because it’s bunk before the swarm. "

" You have convinced me of your intension$$$$$$$$$$$$. "

" People can ask about FM tuners and some one will jump in to recommend the swarm as a fix. "

" It’s not the technology, it is the cult and those who push it. "

Erik, I really am surprised to see you engage in what looks to me like name-calling, straw man arguments, mocking, innuendo, and hyperbole... though I must admit the one about FM tuners was kinda funny.

Maybe there is a different way for you to perceive people who advocate a technology which you concede has merit? Maybe they are not enemies, but fellow audiophiles who are sometimes overly enthusiastic about something?

Nobody here is taking offense and/or accusing you of cultish behavior because you consistently advocate for room treatments, another technology which has merit. That would be out of place, wouldn’t it?

Hopefully we can get to the point where we can disagree without being disagreeable.

Duke

Duke and Ralph did a great job of clarifying the swarm concept and it's applications to different settings, with related options...great to get the info finally from very knowledgeable members...

This might be a shot in the dark, but have you experimented with power cords at all?
I had a power amp that changing out the stock power cord, was like Jesus showing up in the room. (Thought I'd throw that in since we were talking about cults)
Also Schiit makes that inexpensive equalizer..