Some history: I was the OP on a four year old thread about the Chinese LKS MH-DA004 DAC. It achieved an underground buzz. The open architecture of its predecessor MH-DA003 made it the object of a lot of user mods, usually to its analog section, rolling op amps or replacing with discrete. The MH-DA004 with its new ESS chips and JFET analog section was called better then the modified older units. It has two ES9038pro DAC chips deliberately run warm, massive power supply, powered Amanero USB board, JFET section, 3 Crystek femtosecond clocks, Mundorf caps, Cardas connectors, etc., for about $1500. For this vinyl guy any reservation about ESS chips was resolved by the LKS implimentaion, but their revelation of detail was preserved, something that a listener to classic music especially appreciated. I made a list of DACs (many far more expensive) it was compared favorably to in forums. Modifications continued, now to clocks and caps. Components built to a price can be improved by costlier parts and the modifiers wrote glowingly of the SQ they achieved.
Meanwhile, during the 4 years after release of the MH-DA004, LKS (now Musetec) worked on the new MH-DA005 design, also with a pair of ES9038pro chips. This time he used more of the best components available. One torroidal transformer has silver plated copper. Also banks of super capacitors that act like batteries, solid silver hookup wire, 4 femtoclocks each costing multiples of the Crysteks, a revised Amanero board, more of the best European caps and a new partitioned case. I can't say cost NO object, but costs well beyond. A higher price, of course. Details at http://www.mu-sound.com/DA005-detail.html
The question, surely, is: How does it sound? I'm only going to answer indirectly for the moment. I thought that the MH-DA004 was to be my last DAC, or at least for a very long time. I was persuaded to part with my $$ by research, and by satisfaction with the MH-DA004. Frankly, I have been overwhelmed by the improvement; just didn't think it was possible. Fluidity, clarity, bass extension. A post to another board summed it up better than I can after listening to piano trios: "I have probably attended hundreds of classical concerts (both orchestral and chamber) in my life. I know what live sounds like in a good and bad seat and in a good and mediocre hall. All I can say is HOLY CRAP, this sounds like the real thing from a good seat in a good hall. Not an approximation of reality, but reality."
@kairosmanagreed with your "measurements cult" comments. I whole heartedly believe that old technology used to measure new technology still leaves some grey areas where unexplained occurrences, where the sum total of measurements is eclipsed by the end product.
Someone once said, there are fools and then there are damn fools!
The Musetec is a DAC; that’s all. Show us the inside of the Okto you’re writing about. That’s also just a DAC. Most of the inside space of the much smaller Okto case is, in fact, empty.
The Oppo looks busy because it does a lot of things. But is does NOTHING really well. I own an Oppo. The Oppo is good mid-fi. People spend thousands of dollars modifying Oppos to get them to sound really good, typically twice what the Oppo originally cost. The Oppo also was a mass produced player and achieved economies of scale that no high end producer can match.
What the pictures don’t tell the uninitiated about the Musetec is the cost of the transformers particularly the large O-Ring transformer, the SOTA capacitors, the 8 transistor (FETs) analog section which is covered, the custom femto crystal clocks, and the super-capacitor network all of which contribute to SQ. The two capacitors seen just below the analog section cover probably cost more than either of the two principal boards on the Oppo.
The Oppo looks busy because it does a lot of things. But is does NOTHING really well. I own an Oppo. The Oppo is good mid-fi. People spend thousands of dollars modifying Oppos to get them to sound really good, typically twice what the Oppo originally cost
That's been my observation as well over the years. Furthermore elevated parts count is deceptive and not a barometer of the subsequent sound quality. Some superb sounding audio components have relatively few parts. However their individual part quaility (Rather than quantity) is high along with excellent execution of a simpler design pathway.
@melm, Grow up dude - don't show up your frustrations. People will definitely question before they plunk down a bunch of money. Yes the Musetec is a DAC and made in a place where labor is cheap. Still it costs that much, compared to say a Holo Audio which is not chip based and is expensive to make. I was trying to show that the internals of Oppo and Musetec are similar, not same. But the Musetec costs far more than other pure DACs that are also made in China. Why?
@kairosman, though Okto is mostly air, it sounds mighty fine according to the users and professional reviewers. Are you telling me that if you stuff components inside, that should make it sound better? And what trusted members are your talking about? The 3-4 people who keep posting here are not all that familiar to me. I have been here for quite sometime and have only recently seen their activity. In fact it seems these same posters post together on other DAC threads here (go look at the Meitner DAC thread). It seems as if they look out for each other and jump on anyone who other questions the or this product. They seems to be in very close contact with the manufacturer. I can understand that people love their products and the manufacturers. But feeling offended and defending it like crazy raises red flags. This seems to be going on the same track as the Tekton loudspeakers. You really don't have to use 4 letter words to force your opinion - it only shows frustration. And yes, I can delete my system page and claim to have a $100k system.
Some superb sounding audio components have relatively few parts.
Now this comes from a member whose threads I have read and reached out in the distant past. ozzy, lak, etc are the members that many here trust. ALMARG was another member that I trusted and miss him. And no one bad-mouthed others in their response. This is something you fanboys should learn. Take it easy.
And none of you are able to answer - why can one find Musetec so easily while you cannot lay your hands on the Okto? Musetec is a one man show. So ideally it should have been more difficult to find. On the other hand the Okto has a manufacturing facility that employs several people and make them in batches. Still the Oktos are hard to come by. Strange.
Like I mentioned before, I am looking to purchase a DAC in the next few months, but am in no rush. I will take my sweet time to find as much information as I can before I make a decision. Keeping my options open.
@milpai I didn't "bad mouth" anybody - I just voiced my frustration with folks who haven't heard the Musetec in their system opining about it. I recommend just trying it in one's rig to see if it synergizes. After all, it's affordable (for me at least) and easy to sell.
I don't post here often so maybe I don't know and therefore miss as many "trusted" AG folk as you apparently do. Seems to me the dudes who are posting in this thread who actually own the DAC in question are credible despite not being among the dudes you trust.
As for you implying I had once posted my rig here (wrong!) and then took it down so I could bullshit about the cost of my rig, dude, SERIOUSLY?
Just, wow.
But let's leave that ugliness aside and end on a more gentlemanly note... I suggest that since your sleuthing has revealed the Okto as more likely the real deal given its scarcity and positive reviews, not to mention 50% of the price of the Musetec, I'd advise you to buy it and feel happy you made a smart choice.
You know Mr. @milpai, there's an easy solution for your dilemma.
You've been lurking around here since mid-November AND you've done your due diligence AND you think the Musetec is overpriced for what it is physically AND it costs more than other DACs made in China AND you think that labor is cheaper in China than where the Okto is made (It is not!) AND the Okto is less expensive and has great reviews from the commercial press AND the HOLO is a better value because it has a greater number of parts.
Consequently it should be very easy for you to cross the Musetec off your "Options" list and be done with it. Have a good day. You should be happier now.
@kairosmanI had never even once mentioned in this thread about the sound quality of the Musetec. So where did you find my opinion about it, that caused the frustration? I did not say that you posted your system and took it down. What I meant was anyone can say that they own a $$$ system to prove their point. At least that is what I felt when you mentioned the price of your system. There are 3-5 posters on this thread who have been keeping this thread alive and almost defending this DAC. Example would be the response from OP. As for the advice - I can do my own research and reach a conclusion.
@melm I never asked for a solution from you. I will take my time, post on whichever threads I want and try to find answers. You should not have problems as long as I don’t offend you. Why are you so possessive about this DAC? “More parts means more value” is not what I concluded. Please read the “mostly air” comment from a poster above. The Holo is R2R and that takes some build effort was what I was implying. Obviously since such DACs do not use off the shelf chips, they are labor intensive to design and manufacture. So the prices probably reflect that.
These threads are there to share and gather information. I am not sure why you take these posts personally. Per my understanding, you all are owners on the DAC and not this company. But this thread has made me even more aware of what to look for in future when new products show up.
Show us the inside of the Okto you’re writing about. That’s also just a DAC. Most of the inside space of the much smaller Okto case is, in fact, empty.
AND the HOLO is a better value because it has a greater number of parts.
Seems like US fresh air is much more expensive than Czech fresh air. At about $9k the Ayre QX-5 Twenty has about $4k worth of fresh air. This blatant profiteering is what will destroy the US audio industry. Disgusting.
Well, I actually owned the Okto Dac8 stereo, LKS005, LKS004, Auralic Vega and total diy Frankenstein Perpetual Technologies setups all coincidentally or within short period of time from each other. All except the Okto large parts count, if parts count was measure of value it would seem getting full value with these. And then the Okto, mostly air, not getting good value? On the contrary, Okto was fine sounding unit, really not that far off 005 in my system at that point in time.
I also purchased that Okto based in part on measurements at ASR. Based on those measurements I expected relatively high resolving powers. But then, I also require subjective listening reviews prior to my purchases. All things being equal in subjective department, I prefer good measuring equipment, symptom of good engineering in my book. I also need good internal photos, I want to see neat and tidy layout and quality parts, lots of times what I see is foundation for mods. In the case of 005, internal photos illustrated no need for any diy mods, they already did what I would do if I had good foundation to start with. In fact my purchase of 004 was meant to be diy Frankenstein mod package, one look at 005 and I knew I wouldn't have that hassle.
By the way, Okto is smaller operation than Musetec, really is one man operation and extremely high demand due to ASR and Stereophile reviews. They also have the Pro 8 channel model which further limits stereo version production. Last I knew they had stopped taking orders, excessive wait list. I will tell you the Okto is one fine dac, quite amazing at that price, and not Chinese which will be big selling point with some. I suspect part of taking off market may be due to running modifications, it uses 9028 Sabre chips, I'd imagine they may go to better chip or perhaps off in some other direction.
I also think its informative, in regard to reviewers credentials or expertise/validity to know their reference for sound quality, entire present system and comparative experience with other highly regarded components. For audio reproduction, everyone's reference should be really high end vinyl setup, this is where the epitome of natural timbre will be found, this the one area where digital has traditionally lagged far behind. With the really high end analog setups you'll also get the highest resolving powers, micro dynamics, sound staging, imaging, and most important, the ease and natural pace of real live music. Digital can easily do the resolving thing, the rest not as easily achieved. While it would be nice to own the absolute best analog setup, most of us will have to rely on audio memory, still if heard often enough and over many years, the memory sticks. Also nice to hear non-amplified natural instruments in great sounding venues for the live reference.
And now I return to measurements, lots of negativity regarding ASR at the moment. People should recall that earlier iterations of digital had very little in the way of meaurements or means to measure some very important technical aspects of digital. Take jitter for example, early digital very bad here, over time jitter became critical issue due to correlation of jitter measurements to sound quality, improved jitter performance the result, and much less of that old digititus sound today. I'd only say measurements are critical in the design of audio equipment, especially digital, for us end users, the subjective listening is most important.
As for new interesting contenders in high end/value dacs, the Musician Aquarius looks like a real R2R dac contender.
@snsvery nice post. I would have gotten the Okto stereo last yr if they were in stock.
As for new interesting contenders in high end/value dacs, the Musician Aquarius looks like a real R2R dac contender.
The Musician Aquarius is another contender to Denafrips/Holo. Under the hood, it looks very similar to Denafrips and the R2R part might come from the same designer but oem’ed. I have heard some good feedback about this dac. Price in the same ballpark of 005.
You might want to be careful as you consider the Musician Aquarius DAC or any DAC from Musician, especially what you see and read about it. Apparently much of Musician’s output is sourced from Denafrips but may or may not be up to the Denafrips standard. You also might want to reevaluate the great reviews given as it is reliably reported that the company GIVES, rather than loans, DACs to reviewers.
More info here. The guys in this video are pretty reliable IMO:
@melmyes the Musician operation is undercutting Denafrips’ worldwide distributor Vinshine (Singapore based) on price/performance/build in cahoots with Denafrips. As in Musician is Denafrips’ B brand and another means of creating work and revenue for the Denafrips crew. I have always been treated well by Alvin the boss at Vinshine and feel sorry for him as his margins are most likely thin to begin with.
While I have no skin in the game and have no plans to try Musician products, seems from all the talk on net most don't get how China business operates. They operate under total war rules, whether this is Denafrips designed is of no consequence to the Chinese, all interested parties know the game.
While the review Melm referred to was problematic, I see plenty of positive amateur reviews for their products. For those who expect Chinese to operate according to one's own views of what is fair, forget about it. Whether this bothers your conscious is only for you to decide, I'd only say business practices, as they exist all over this world may also not conform to one's ideas of fairness.
Per usual, best practice for relying on reviews for purchasing decisions, seek out maximum number of amateur reviews over long period of time.
Based on the above, presuming I didn't own 005, I'd be wary about 005 purchase. My eyes were wide open in purchasing 005, product of totalitarian China with no reviews at time of my purchase. As for Chinese purchases, I've long been aware of the many compromises I've made in participating in capitalist system. I don't know the exact supply chain of so many products I've purchased over the years, I'm sure many lives have been negatively impacted by my participation in this system.
apart from what @sns said, I would like to add that Musician is not the first company that GIVES and will not be the last. I won't go into names but there has been American company who does the same. So this is not out of the blue. There are so many professional reviewers' listening room is cheap and a mess that they can't even have proper room treatment and yet they own expensive speakers, amps and not to mention multi-thousand $ cables. Its hard to digest that they buy them at the same price a normal consumer would.
So right debjit_g, why I don't give so called 'professional' reviewers much credence. They mostly all have agendas, and also the other liabilities you listed. Everyone should also realize negative reviews may gain notoriety for the reviewer, and the product being reviewed Better to be talked about than not talked about, I'm sure everyone knows about Tekton and Raven.
Beyond reviews, another good way to judge quality of equipment is many internal photos. Parts used, layout can give one a clue to quality of component, specifications can be helpful in spite of those averse to them.This is exactly the method I used in purchasing 005 without a single review.
The other thing about only relying on reviews is you'll usually find luke warm and negative reviews, in addition to the positives. Sometimes you just have to trust yourself and make a decision.
The only relevance of how China operates should relate to whether they have malpractices, etc. If the manufacturer operates a business without malpractices, then what happens between them and the Chinese government should not be something that the consumer should be pulled into or be aware of. If I missed the point, please elaborate.
Internal photos can be a good judge of quality of equipment, but not how it might sound. It might be similar to saying that the equipment performed excellent on test bench, like ASR, but then if it sounds sterile, then the numbers unfortunately don't mean anything.
I definitely look for user reviews when I try to search for a good product to buy. In fact the Rhumba, ProAcs and the Inakustiks are such products that do not have too many reviews, but user backing is strong. But when a handful of users take comments personally, defend the manufacturer for their issues, cuss others for not agreeing with them and then one user comes to rescue them all, that is a HUGE RED flag for me. So yes, user reviews are great, but everything should be taken with a grain of salt.
As for gifts to reviewers, it’s called an "accommodation" price, essentially the wholesale price--50 to 60 per cent of retail if it was new. So when a reviewer writes that he liked it so much he bought it, that’s an entirely different value assessment than his readers face. Moreover, accommodation units often go pretty quickly to the used market.
I had not heard, before Musician, of simply giving a new audio component to the reviewer. A bad review and he has a door stop for sale. A good review and there’s money to be made. Daniel1969 wrote in audiophilestyle.com, "I bought the sample Musician DAC from Sandu..." @debjit_gsays he won’t go into the name of an American company that does that. I say, please do. Not surprised about cables. Their margins are tremendous so the give-away means very little. Plus there’s possible continuing publicity as the reviewer hooks up new components for review with those same cables.
While a well established print reviewer might have the liberty to give a bad review (or at least one that seems bad when you read between the lines) I don’t think that’s the case for internet reviewers. IMO manufacturers simply won’t take the chance of sending a product for review to someone who doesn’t churn out favorable reviews.
I agree that the quality of parts and layout can give a pretty good clue as to sound. Of course you have to know something about audio to evaluate the build of a component. A component cannot give more to the sound than it has good stuff within. I also made a decision on the Musetec, and other components, to a great extent on what was inside. I recall appreciating Goldensound’s review of the Holo May and the detail in which he revealed the details of its manufacture. It gave me the impresson he’s a serious guy. Most commercial reviewers, even the better ones, merely recite the component’s advertising copy to describe what’s inside.
I value the opinions of people who actually paid for their components, especially when there is a reasonably good number of them.
As for gifts to reviewers, it’s called an "accommodation" price, essentially the wholesale price--50 to 60 per cent of retail if it was new.
@melmleaving beside what it's called (its actually of no interest to me what they are called), there isn't much difference between 50-60% vs 100%. Its a favor a reviewer gets which a normal consumer doesn't. It doesn't really matter if its 50% or 100%. Its all fine but to say Musician is the company that gives when others doesn't is just not correct. That's my point and I have no skin in the game.
All these Chinese brands are competing with each other in similar price range. There sounds will be in the similar ballpark, some will do this better, others will do something else better. Its just a matter of personal taste and system synergy. With technology advancement, some might replace a slightly higher priced DACs but the real question is will they ever be able to replace the higher priced MSBs or Wadax or Lampizator or Esoterics of the world ? If they do, you have a real winner, otherwise they continue to be midfi stuff at best and there is nothing wrong with that (and I am owned some as well).
@debjit_gI would say the general Chinese business plan is similar to the post War Japanese one. Which is first copy, dump the product on the market and when the competition is on it's knees bring out a cheaper quality product.
I would say the 005 and May and Termy are second generation products but as you say they are not absolute top end.
That is coming. There are many copies of FM Acoustics Pre and Power amps available at different price ranges. I've personally heard $2k copies and they sound really good, better than they should. Even the ICBs have been copied exactly. FM Acoustics is way up there $200k+ per unit.
@melm+1 On Goldensound, I respect the way he's stood up to dCS and the MQA scum, notwithstanding his truly excellent reviews of the May, Spring, Serene, Dave etc.
The Fat German keeps defending MQA to his last breath when everyone else has proved it's a scam in more ways than one.
I am disgusted by Bob Stuart being involved in MQA and doing his best to justify the scam. Shows you can't trust anyone.
They're all laughing now, I believe they sold MQA and someone else is carrying the can.
This is another reason Tidal calls MQA Tidal Masters. Legally different entities.
It's my understanding that most if not all reviewers can get the accommodation price, before, during, or after doing the review. The price is typically the same as what a retailer would pay the manufacturer for the product. There have been threads already on markup, so yes, 50-60% is typical. Impossible to know if a few manufacturers try to exert influence beyond this, but if they did it would typically be with "reviewers" who operate singly and are not part of a team (e.g. publishing in the major magazines).
That is coming. There are many copies of FM Acoustics Pre and Power amps available at different price ranges. I’ve personally heard $2k copies and they sound really good, better than they should. Even the ICBs have been copied exactly. FM Acoustics is way up there $200k+ per unit.
Here is a Dartzeel for only $650 for your consideration.. 😁
The 005 was delivered last week but I am having a little problem with one of my mono blocks so off it went for repair.
I just took delivery of a CODA CSiB integrated yesterday. So I am breaking them in together.
Also new to my system speaker wires ( Graceline L1) as my Silversmith Fideliums are not long enough.
Add in a Puritan 156 conditioner that is brand new and the coax cable being used (Cary DMS 700 has no USB out when used as a music player /streamer) says Belden video on the jacket, it sounds pretty good out of the box and can see the potential.
I really don't like breaking in a few different components at a time, but really had no choice.
I have the Bricasti M3 here also but having a little trouble get it going. It was a demo so its broken in. Figured I will work on the 005 first . I have the setting set as recommended in the manual. Streaming Qobuz/Tidal and playing files from attached hard drive and integrated SD card in the Cary.
@benzman I have something similar to you (previously had CSiB). Now have a CODA 07x preamp | CODA #8 amp | Musetec 005 | RAAL SR1a headphones. I love this combo. It is not easy to make the SR1a reach it’s full potential with a 2-channel amp (I know from a lot of experience).
The CODA stack comes as close to the top dog, the RAAL VM-1a headphone amp. I wanted to sell the CODA #8 to get the cheaper VM-1a but the CODA was too good for me to pull the trigger to sell. I will likely always keep it around for 2-channel speaker and headphone duties, unless I upgrade to the CODA #16.
I tried other DACs in this chain and any deficiency in the DAC showed up in the headphones (usually as fatigue). The 005 was the best DAC for the SR1a, followed very far behind by the AudioMirror Tubadour III SE.
The Musetec DAC is, I believe, a true balanced design. Whether you achieve a significant benefit from that may depend upon your related components.
Glad it appears to be working for you as you like, it will get better as it breaks in, but as others have written, break-in may not be a straight line.
It's been a while since I shared my impressions of my 005. Fully broken in now, it's an end-game DAC. One feature I like is how I can program the DPLL for my CD player (2) and music server (currently at 5). I do have DPLL question-How do I lower it?
I agree with Musetec, 1, or lowest dpll setting best, if one can't attain without dropouts you have issues with network, fix your network, worth it.
Latest upgrade to network, different macmini with I7 and PCIe ssd (vs I5 and sata ssd), Uptone MMK with Uptone JS2 lps, this one even further optimized with 3rd party app wipe and SIP disabled. Next server tried will be custom build atx motherboard based with optical out. Also, 101d replacement tube burning in. Another layer of noise eliminated, and more importantly, even more natural, life like presentation. Point being, 005 should only improve in this area with more exposure.
Thanks sns! I know where the DPLL button is on the remote. I just can't figure out how to make the settings go down. When I push it, the bandwidth goes up.
Using either the extreme right button on the DAC, or the 3rd button down on the right of the remote, and while the DAC reads out PCM, the DPLL cycles, going up until it reaches 15, and then going to 1, 2, etc. You’re looking for the lowest trouble free setting.
IIRC the two cycle settings are for PCM and DSD, not for particular inputs.
At the beginning of the digital era some CDs were recorded with a slightly different eq than most as a noise reduction technique. That was called pre-emphasis. CD players automatically look for the pre-emphasis "flag" on the disk and make an adjustment called de-emphasis. However if you rip a CD that has the pre-emphasis, it will sound brighter/thinner that it would on a CD player. So some DACs make provision for de-emphasis. Since these CDs are very old and very few, best just to keep the de-emphasis off.
@benzmanGive us some context for your decision. I know you had a Briscati M3 and some other new components coming in to your system. How did you set up 005 in system, and what were particulars of how 005 didn't measure up to preferred setup?
I'm certainly interested in hearing about possible sins of commission 005 may invoke, or deficiencies versus other dacs.
I had a problem with one of my mono blocks that had to go in for repair I received my Musitec with nothing to listen with till the Coda Csib arrived. Cost me over a week of my trial.
The Musitec was fed by my current Cary DMS 700 thru coax streaming Qobuz,Tidal and files from the HD and SD. No way of optimizing the USB input of the 005 which I am sure is it’s best input. Gave it about 8 days and figured I would try the Bricasti M3 using the same inputs. It was not even close. The Bricasti was on such a higher level there was no amount of break in time or input challenging that would get the 005 near the level of the Bricasti.
The M3 is so refined, just another animal , soundstage depth, layering of instruments, delicacy of cymbals and percussion. Just in another league.
The Bricasti was a demo w/network card ( which I didn’t use during the comparison) for 40% off list with full 2 year warranty. So the numbers also worked in the Bricasti’s favor.
I am sure the 005 is a great value but certainly at least in my system could not compete with the Bricasti which is 6500 list price so it’s really not a fair comparison.
I had already ordered the 005 when the Bricasti came available or I would not have tried it. It just cemented how good the Bricasti is.
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