"Verdi's Requiem, track 2, Dies Irae" Oh yes, sir !!!!!
The biggest dynamic range I have experienced when (at holidays only) I use Sony early SACD where Eugine Ormandy conducts Philadelphia Orchestra.
I stand corrected - live FM transmissions are probably compressed, indeed. However, when I see them in my own listening room singing and talking and I am actually away hundreds of miles away and did not pay hundreds of dollars for ticket - my knees are shaken !!!! It is the best system in my life, system which transfers me there (or them to me - I don;t understand he difference) sometimes so realistic I almost cry...
You are great man Ralph! and you undertsand us "obsessed" as few can
Mike |
Mike, If you have a large room that may be true. But if your room is average size (17' x 25' or thereabouts) then I would not be so certain. FWIW, the live transmissions over FM have to be compressed to fit the dynamic range of the medium.
I share your interest in dynamic range- its one of my pet peeves that I feel plague many systems I have heard.
If you really want to hear dynamic range you can actually do better with an LP. Here's a recommendation, a bit hard to find but one of the bigger dynamic ranges on LP, Verdi's Requiem, on the old RCA Soria set. Try track 2, Dies Irae and then see if you can play it at actual lifelike levels. I have seen that LP bring many 'state of the art' systems to their knees. It was recorded about 1959 or so and most systems still have trouble with it... |
Atmasphere, least of all I want to argue with you. However, I did not expressed any doubt that your "bigger" amplifiers (or similar OTL amps) can drive Sasha too. Surely, they will show magical midrange there as well.
I love to audition operas e.g. Saturday's "live" transmissions from Metropoliten Opera in NY, big symphonic music and I do stand behind my statement that any OTL I know of: "cannot drive my Sasha by Wilson and provide the same dynamic range as Spectron does ". PERIOD !!! I believe Spectron has 7kW peak power and it shows!
Mike |
Atmasphere,
Carvin makes 2050W class D bass heads. Ampeg makes 2500W one. |
Michael_moskowich, Tim Aucremann of The Audio Beat http://www.theaudiobeat.com uses a set of MA-1s (with a set of ZEROs) with Sashas. I myself heard the Sashas on MA-1s at Paul Bolin's home. It didn't seem like the speaker was hard to drive at all! So yes, obviously our bigger amps can drive the speaker too. In fact it seems to me that with a set of M-60s and a set of ZEROs you would have plenty of power with Sashas in most rooms. Here's an article Tim wrote about the MA-1s, scroll down and you will see the Sashas: http://www.theaudiobeat.com/blog/atma_sphere_ma1_mk31_upgrade.htmClass D, as you can imagine, has made big inroads in the pro-audio and music world. For example Orange now has a class D bass amp that makes 500 watts. Its small and light! It can't keep up with an all-tube Peavey 400-watt bass head though. The Peavey has more punch and bottom end. Mind you we are comparing apples to oranges in a fashion, because its likely that music amps are not built to the same standards as high end stuff. But I find it interesting (and perhaps no coincidence) that the relationship I have observed between class D and tubes in general seems similar to what I have seen in the music field as well. |
" Mike do you think Ralph's MA2 or MA3 could drive those speakers?"
Hello Rlff: I think this question is best to be addressed to Ralph... |
I've owned several variants of TA2024 including Trends 10.1, a few TA2020 amps from Muse, Topping, etc, and currently use a LM1875 from Brian Bell (chipamp_dot_com.)
This last one is a pure gainclone, minimalistic, very few parts. The best 20wpc I've ever heard from solid state, and better in most ways than many single-ended triode and pentode 6BQ5 amps. I've owned Almarro, Decware copies, rebuilt vintage SEs by Magnavox, Motorola, Zenith, some killer DIY 6bq5 SE using a chip voltage regulator and tube rectifier, and lots more. I've also owned many rebuilt vintage tube amps from EICO, Fisher, Scott, Pilot (SA232 is AMAZING) Allied (6BM8), Conn Organ (6L6), Harman Kardon, etc. I've owned solid-state by Belles, Van Alstine, Nelson Pass, Dynaco and much more. Pair a well-designed class-d with good speakers from Tang Band, Fostex, Mission, etc and they are near perfect, IMO. Great amps have been around since the 1940s. I think even a basic run-of-the-mill Class D will out-perform any Mosfet amp at any price. More accurate midrange, better bass, nicer higs, less audible distortion, lower noise floor, better reliability.
We are in the second "golden age" of audio. If your class-d doesn't sound like tubes, add a tube buffer between your passive attenuator and amp. For me, though, musical truth and emotional experience is more important than nostalgia. |
Mike do you think Ralph's MA2 or MA3 could drive those speakers? |
" ...the bar that has to be met by class D is not how they compare to traditional transistor designs but (especially on SoundLabs) how well they compare to tube amplification. "
Hello Athmaspere. I don't like to put all amps together into single group as "class D" and even more tube amps.
I mentioned in my post Spectrons and Wayne Donnelly, reviewer from Enjoy The Music, sent back his $50k VTL Zigfrieds (spl) when he got his Spectron. I also much prefer Spectron over my former amp, McIntosh 2202 etc
On other hand, I truly love OTLs - your and that of Jud Barber of Joule-Electra but I can't stand their heat and high maintanence. Moreover, only you know how well your amps can drive Soundlab (I suspect very well) but 100% they cannot drive my Sasha by Wilson and provide the same dynamic range as Spectron does - Sashas are the most power hungry speakers in entire David Wilson line.
Mike |
Mapman - second generation of REF1000 not only have huge bank of additional capacitors but also converts huge narrow spikes of current to more of resistive load. Was it worth extra price? I'm sure it was. Any small improvement at this point costs a lot and is worth any money if you know that it works in your system. I might upgrade to this amp in future. I understand that "m" stands for mk II (new generation) but am not sure about "s" suffix? |
"No signs of stress or distortion"
- that might be due to line and load regulated power supply in your REF1000."
I'm thinking that is a part of it. At least I'm hoping so because I know that is the main reason I opted to pay a hefty premium for the BC ref1000ms rather than go with other similar designs for a lot less. |
"No signs of stress or distortion"
- that might be due to line and load regulated power supply in your REF1000. 99% of the other amps have completely unregulated supplies - that is why class AB amps have monstrous size toroidal transformers and a lot of capacitors (to minimize voltage drops). |
"Continuos power rating doesn't make much sense anyway since average music power delivered is only few percent of the peak."
I think that is the essence of how a switching amp is able to achieve the performance levels it does in such a small and energy efficient package.
Regardless of design, in the end, its all in the execution. How well does a product do its thing. The better Class D amps these days would seem to indicate that the answer is "really good", even if not to everyone's particular taste. |
I'll add that my OHM F5s are about as power hungry as they come. I bought the Bel Canto ref1000ms as a low or no compromise solution for reasonable cost. I like to play music that should be loud, loud. The BC has fit the bill perfectly. They are the first amps I have tried (of 3) that have never run out of steam no matter what I do. THe music just continues to expand and inflate as I increase the volume to whatever high level might be needed. No signs of stress or distortion and one often does not even realize how loud things are until you try to hear somebody near you talk.
I cannot find any fault. Some might prefer a more lively top end I suspect, but the top end is all there quite nicely. That's about it. |
"Atmasphere, OK. But FWIW, there should be no problem with almost any preamp, tube or transistor, driving a class D amp.
From my non professional experience. I was immediately taken by my first switching amplifiers lack of fatigue and its unusually transparent presentation. It did, however, pose some difficult issues regarding RF and/or EMI. An afternoons worth of a VAC upgrade and the RF issues were resolved. Now I was hearing my tube preamp, its noise and sonic colorations. After some extensive auditioning I found my current battery powered solid state preamp to be a key partnering with my switching amplifiers technology.
I agree, there shouldn't be a problem with other preamps and to a great extent there aren't. Still, the isolation of a battery powered pre proved to be a surprising sonic advancement in my system. Partnering the H2O with the Fire pre is another example.
I'd like to mirror Muralman, switching amplifiers require system refinement to varying degrees. Cable materials and size, shielding, and VAC supply all play a large part in system refinement.
All my amplifiers have their shortcomings but the switchers have far less. They are different and they do have their own presentation. None that I've auditioned even come close to sounding like a tube amplifier or solid state. |
Ckoffend - I might be wrong about heatsink since they talked about ADDITIONAL heatsink (module has its own) but I don't really know If REF100 has additional heatsink (picture shows some heatsink).
Continuos power rating doesn't make much sense anyway since average music power delivered is only few percent of the peak. |
"First off, the Ref 1000 is not a 1000 WPC amp, it is a 500 WPC amp (but that is really only for peak/short periods, not continuous)."
REF1000 is rated 1000W/4ohm. By "short periods" only you probably referring to specification of Icepower module 1000ASP used in REF1000 showing only 150W FTC?
First of all in reality it is much better than that (attached test below conducted by DIY member - read below), second of all it is rating of the module WITHOUT ANY HEATSINK!!! REF1000 uses heatsink and I suspect can output 1000W per FTC requirement but it is not even necessary because average music power is only few percent of the peak power.
Originally posted by dmfraser
"I operated a sample 1000ASP on the bench delivering 350W average of pink noise into a 4 ohm load for over one hour with no additional heatsink and the metal case stayed below 55°C.
However, higher levels would make the power supply voltage go down to act as a thermal compensation. Much nicer than just shutting down.
However, with 1214W of sine wave, partly into clipping, after about 35 seconds, the output level would drop to about 600W by the protection circuitry. Remember this is with no additional heatsink." |
Soundlabs don't actually need all that much power, but transistor amps (including class D) have trouble making power into the impedances of the Soundlab. Its for this reason that people using transistors tend to use very high power amps with them.
For example if you have an amp with 600 watt/8 ohms, on the Soundlab the amp will make about 150 watts. IMO/IME the bar that has to be met by class D is not how they compare to traditional transistor designs but (especially on SoundLabs) how well they compare to tube amplification. |
" Any of the class D users driving a pair of soundlab speakers;if so whats your opinion?"
A friend of mine with soundlab (latest A1) have auditioned my Wilson's Sasha driven by the pair of Spectron monoblocks and also bought the pair. (He used to have Pass Lab X350.5) I love the sound of his system and so does he.
Pass Lab, rather suprisingly for me, sounded "grayish" or "grainy" with shallow bass and very little dynamics in comparison to Spectron. I suspect this is only because these electrostatics demand power and power and power and Spectrons have about 7kW peak power.
Mike |
Correction:
The Class G Hitachi receiver I owned was a sr-804, not an sr-803. |
I also used to own a 1970's vintage Class G Hitachi sr803 receiver for many years. Class G is an older similar but much different relative of Class D.
The Class G amp there clearly exhibited its advertised ability to deliver double its rated 50w/ch for only brief periods. THough it had some guts for a smaller 50w receiver, it did not perform as well as its true 100w/ch brethren of the time. That sound was quite meh, nothing even close to the modern bar set by the better modern amps. |
I replaced a 120 w/ch Musical Fidelity A3CR with the 500w/ch BelCanto ref1000m monoblocks.
This was primarily for the benefit of my big OHM F5 series 3 speakers, the largest and most power hungry I own also in teh largest room.
In my case, the difference in performance I can hear is clearly in line with the difference in specs, so my findings in my case differ from Ckoffend's case.
The BC ref1000m monoblocks also seemed to benefit my smaller OHM 100S3s and my Dynaudio Contour 1.3mkII monitors as well, although to a lesser degree with the smaller speakers.
I also run a pair of little Realistic Minimus 7's off the Bel Canto amps on my deck. The sound here is top notch for those little speakers as well compared to prior amps, but the practical difference with such small speakers in that application is practically nill. |
First off, the Ref 1000 is not a 1000 WPC amp, it is a 500 WPC amp (but that is really only for peak/short periods, not continuous). My experience has been that my BC1000 does not have sufficient power for my Thiel CS6 speakers, whereas, my 125 WPC all class A Mark Levinson has much better control over these speakers. I also feel that the 125 wpc Levinson amp holds together better than the BC Ref 1000 when driving my Watt/Puppies (a sign of running out of power?) at high volume levels.
My prior Krell FPB 300-C was rated at 300 WPC, continuous, at 8 ohms (in reality it was closer to 380-400+ WPC, continuous at 8 ohms from 20-20K htz.) and that amp had a lot more power than my current Levinson amp.
From my limited experience with non-cone drivers combined with the class D amps is that they seem to shine a bit more with these speakers than with box speakers - that being preliminary as my listening has been brief to date with this set-up.
I love the idea of what the class D amps bring to the table, size, weight, heat, power consumption. But as a believer in class A over A/B, these issues are all secondary to sound for me. And so far, it has been the sound performance that has been lacking in my system, in my experience, with my sound goals with the class D amps. |
Any of the class D users driving a pair of soundlab speakers;if so whats your opinion? |
"On the other hand it would be hard to find 2x1000W class A amplifier to compete with BC Ref 1000 not only for monetary reasons but also for power requirements (10kW@110V=91A)"
Not to mention size and weight.
I pay no attention to this sounds better than that discussions. There are many viable high quality options. You just have to pick and chose. Everyone has different wants/needs/requirements.
The undeniable advantages of Class D is size, weight and power consumption. Also frequently, but not always, cost. That matters to some (like me) and not others.
I do not expect any new amp technology to sound radically better than older technologies categorically these days. There is a limit to how good any system can sound, usually determined most by source material and listening room characteristics.
I will say that the clear benefits of Class D are of the most significance when compared to similar high powered monster amps.
In cases where smaller, lowered powered Class A or Class A/B amps suffice, Class D amps may still suffice as well but they tend to lose their distinct advantages. |
I think it is just that to SOME people class D sounds great and for OTHERS not so great. You happened to be in the second group. Some reviewers and makers (like Jeff Rowland) love class D while others hate it. It is all subjective.
On the other hand it would be hard to find 2x1000W class A amplifier to compete with BC Ref 1000 not only for monetary reasons but also for power requirements (10kW@110V=91A) |
Another poster stated: "Sir Timtim,with a price difference of around 4500 buckaroos i would expect complete annihilation." refering to how a non-class D amp (McCormich to be specific) compared to a class D amp (W4S to be specific).
This is where the line needs to be drawn. The class D amp manufacturers and the owner proponents of them make statements that these amps blow away the best of the class A amps at many times the price. Yet when anybody compares them to another (non class D amp) at a higher price and the class A (or whatever) amp wins, this reference to price is always drawn.
Are the proponents and manufacturers therefore saying that "their" class D amp only beats faulty amps that cost much more or the "good" amps that cost much more?
I honestly cannot put my finger exactly on the part of the class D amps performance (that I have owned and/or auditioned), but I do know that over time installed in my system I listen to music less and enjoy it less when the class D amps are installed. When putting my class A amps back into the systems, I find that I return to listening to more music and enjoying it more.
Is there a future where class D amps will compare performance wise with the better class A amps (regardless of cost)? I sure hope so, but so far, I have not heard a class D amp that can compare to the class A amps that I "like" or own.
Most recently, I installed my BC Ref 1000s on a pair of maggies I picked up recently, and this seems to be the best I have heard from these amps. But I have yet to install these speakers on my main system with my class A amp as a comparison. |
Anybody ever heard the International Rectifier 'd' offering?
I've got a stereo module out in the garage needing a +-50 volt ps / case/ and all the wiring / connectors.
They sell OEM and I've never seem 'em referred to at all anywhere. |
LOL,
Sound advise fron Audiofeil , when , where, how ? Bill is not just abrasive, he is down right disrespectful and rude with his personal attacks, it would be nice if he actually discussed audio.
Maybe we can get back to discussing class-d amplifiers, likes and dislikes.
Regards.. |
"(audiofeil) offers no nonsense, sound advice."
Unsound, Audiofeil barges in every time I post. He does this to denigrated what he DOES NOT sell. That is nonsense. Sound advice cannot be made about something one knows nothing about. |
Some might find Bill abrasive, but I find him refreshing. He offers no nonsense, sound advice. If anything, I would suspect his frankness might hurt rather than help his business. I respect his opinion and welcome his contributions. |
Why the attack on Audiofeil? As far as I can see ha has done nothing wrong and at least he is honest about being a dealer. Many posters on the forum will not say that they have a commercial interest in audio. While I might not always agree with him I do think he knows a lot about audio. |
Bill has a very dry wit, but he is usually correct. |
My method of dealing with Bill Feil (Audiofeil) is simple and, if followed by enough other Goners, would be very effective. I just don't buy anything from him. If he insults or belittles you or your opinions, or your system or your choices, just cross him off your shopping list permanently. It should be obvious to everyone that he is only in this for the money. Take that away and he will dry up and blow away. POOF!!!! ........just like an expired dandelion. |
LOL...
You can run Audiofeil, but you can't hide....
Now what is a sophisticated system ? how does one determine such? is it a case of placing grey poupon on the speakers when listening...
regards, |
"I can assure you from speaking to customers with systems far more sophisticated than yours"
This one I missed.... There in lies the proof of Audiofeil's agenda. What makes him think he knows any systems more sophisticated than mine, or Mapman, or any of the others here? What is meant by singling his customers out? It is because they spent a lot more money than I. He has to justify their purchases. Money don't buy love and money doesn't insure you of getting the best.
Atmasphere, your amps are lovely, and I am sure they sound wonderful. I have had the pleasure of hearing a six figure tube system a number of times, and the sound is quite lovely. |
|
Audiofeil,
You denounced his system without hearing it, funny how the cookie crumbles for those with an agenda.<<
I did not denounce his system. This was my post:
"I can assure you from speaking to customers with systems far more sophisticated than yours"
That is simply a true statement. Perhaps you're dyslexic.
Agenda? Absolutely not. I've not mentioned nor discussed a single product in which I have a financial interest. Please see my dyslexia comment again.
If you are able. |
Atmasphere:
It was not directed at you and i do not have an axe to grind, just calling it as i see it, but I'm sure there are others who recognize the tone..
Regardless of the discussion, Tube amps,Soundlab speakers or special gravity defying horns, anything else brought up for discussion is dismissed by such. Weseixas, OK- Perhaps I am experiencing some form of cognitive disorder, but I'm just not making sense of what you are saying here. What do you mean by 'others who recognize the tone' and 'dismissed by such'? |
Audiofeil,
You denounced his system without hearing it, funny how the cookie crumbles for those with an agenda.
Atmasphere:
It was not directed at you and i do not have an axe to grind, just calling it as i see it, but I'm sure there are others who recognize the tone..
Regardless of the discussion, Tube amps,Soundlab speakers or special gravity defying horns, anything else brought up for discussion is dismissed by such.
Regards, |
>>02-24-11: Muralman1
the truth of the matter is, you can't make any worthwhile recommendation on my system unheard.<<
Agree, I already posted words to that very effect.
>>Perchance you hear my system I suggest you would not have the temerity to challenge any component comprising my system<<
Of course I would.
No system is beyond improvement.
Thank you. |
Atmasphere, thank you. The respect is mutual. |
OK. But FWIW, there should be no problem with almost any preamp, tube or transistor, driving a class D amp. |
Audiofeil, the truth of the matter is, you can't make any worthwhile recommendation on my system unheard. Perchance you hear my system I suggest you would not have the temerity to challenge any component comprising my system. |
Atmasphere, I have walked away from that part of my discussion. The move to the preamp I am using was made years ago when the audio picture was different. I am just happy with the way things turned out. |
What is very apparent and holds true to any and every concern here on AG is that someone selling Atmasphere amplifiers will attack, like wolves in a pack and with some of the most made up science heevar. Uh Weseixas, do you have an ax to grind? Is that you grinding it? Maybe you could explain what you mean here- its hard to tell who its directed to. Regarding the context of this thread though, Muralman1 made a comment that did not seem to make sense, and I asked him to clarify. Now Unsound and I often come down on opposite sides of a conversation, but he never attacks me and I have always respected him for that. He often challenges me- that is different and as far as I know, there is no rancor. He and I were in agreement regarding the need for clarification. OTOH, Audiofeil is not usually one to get deep into the technical aspects of a subject, so I have to assume to that the 'made up science' part of your comment is directed at me. Do you care to explain that or is my assumption incorrect? Who is the 'wolves in a pack'? |
>>Ag waits your intelluctual response<<
Well, that's really nice of you first of all.
I'd have to hear his components in his room to make a recommendation.
Make sense to you?
Thanks for your thoughts.
I know you speak for the entire ag readership.
Or think you do. |
Audiofiel why not answer Muralman's question ?
" Might you suggest a preamp that can do better than I have? Perhaps I can get a dealer near here to bring one over for a listen." -02-24-11: Muralman1
AG, awaits your intellectual response..
regards, |
Witty and clever, not by a long shot...
What is very apparent and holds true to any and every concern here on AG is that someone selling Atmasphere amplifiers will attack, like wolves in a pack and with some of the most made up science heevar.
They lay claim to Audio nirvana and frankly i have yet to see anything that is remotely SOTA.
Well Audio by opinion is not uncommon and Audiofiel has shown his worth again, now he derides Muralman's system by claiming it is nothing special, he has "friends" with better,
Business must be booming.................
|
I like Macrojack.
He's a stand up guy.
Speaks his mind and has refreshing opinions. |
