Power cords or power conditioner

OP,

Congratulations on your purchase. Once you have listened to your system with your conditioner for a couple weeks… then take it out. This typically really demonstrates what it has been doing.

It is important to compare equipment critically… by switching…but

Be a bit cautious on swapping too much stuff too close in time. The real arbitrator of sound is your subconscious’ appraisal of the music through your system. But it needs just to listen with your analytical brain turned off. Hence after a couple weeks of no change it will make differences pretty obvious.

Also, given what you have said about your location. It is very likely your equipment will be very susceptible to improvements using vibration control. It need not be expensive. You can dip your toe in with Nobsound Springs under components… and move over time to stuff like Townsend Podiums.

I bought them.  If I am not happy with the sound of them, I will return and then go down the lending library rabbit hole!   

Was this from their landing library or you purchased it? I’d highly recommend borrowing these from them first before buying. 

@nyev I did't order a new USB cable.  That one is going to have to wait.   This is what was said to me regarding my signal cables. 

"My advice would be to bypass power cord auditions for now and try a loom of a brand that has a more balanced approach than the split personality you're running now. Nordost is all about speed, transparency and leading edge transients. Transparent blunts all of that, rounds off the edges and warms things up. However, these two together don't make anywhere near as balanced a whole as you might hope and I'd encourage you to consider listening to signal cables instead. You've got to get the signal side right before you start playing with the power side."
 

I ended up ordering an Acoustic Zen Silver Reference II XLR, and Acoustic Zen Hologram II speaker cables- Bi-Wired.  Nice thing with The Cable Company is if I don't like the sound, I can swap for something else.  However I've read a lot of people say how well both Luxman and KEF sound with this combo.   I'll soon find out. 

@wheelndeal1099 I find it interesting that TheCableCo found Transparent speaker cables and Nordost USB interconnects (not familiar with Wireworld). I’ve demo’d Nordost USB cords before and found them to be quite neutral. Not a personal fan of Transparent speaker cables (I’ve tried them), but I can’t say they are bad. Just not my thing, in my system. But I can’t think of why that combo would elicit such a strong reaction from TheCableCo. Did they explain this at all? Anyone else have experience with this combo?  What are they sending you?

Hopefully you are trying a 1.5m or longer USB cord (as I mentioned I found 1m and in particular shorter than 1m cords compress the soundstage).

They are entirely different and they both serve useful purposes.

A conditioner makes certain the power is as clean as possible.

Power cords are shielded to reduce contamination of equipment that results from AC emissions.

@markiew Thanks for the tip on the TA-102 tape! I’ll give it a try!

The Shinyata Triton and Alpha XC PC arrived today. I’m going to let it play for a while before I have an opinion on it. But so far I do think it is an improvement.

I also contacted the Cable Company on power cord choices. They asked what else I was running. They said my DYI cords are fine for now. But they did not like my combo of interconnects and speaker cables. They said the two couldn’t be more different and the synergy between them was probably poor. So I have some new cables on the way.

@thyname I was checking out GK Acoustics today. I like their products better than Acoustimac, that is where I have bought my treatments in the past.

Gonna agree with some and and offer some of my experience.

1) As above, first thing is to experiment with speaker placement.  Definitely do this, take a couple of hours and test out different positions, separations etc to get a feel for how it changes things in your room.

2) Get hold of a Puritan PSM156 on demo or sale and return. Brilliant piece of kit.  Will add clarity first, then image second in my experience.  A reasonable priced bit of kit.  Try out the ultimate power cable supplying it too if you can, although std cable is no slouch.

3)  Ultimate upgrade for stereo image is Fo.Q TA-102 thick tape.  Open up your source equipment and apply squares of it to the top of every cap you can find.  An exceptionally cheap upgrade that will by far give you what you want.  Given the budget you are considering, this will give you what you want almost for free.  Try it, its on ebay or lotususa do it I think too (https://www.lotusgroupusa.com/foq.html)

I am not sure what "not shire" means. Did you mean "not sure if you have used tube traps"?

I have the following GIK panels (4" on the front wall and 6" on the back wall): 

They are a combination absorber / diffuser / bass trap. They can be turned around too, to only get absorption and no diffusion. But I do strictly use absorbers only (4" 242s) on the side walls and my ceiling. Maybe time to experiment moving things around

Hello Thyname,

not shire if you have used tube traps. They have an absorption side and a reflective side. As you turn them, you get more of one or the other.

For the ceiling and front soundstage, I use RPG skyline.

@labpro :

I would start with diffusion across the soundstage, back wall behind the listening position and at the fist reflection points on the side walls and ceiling

Interesting. You are doing Diffusors (not absorbers) on the side walls (first reflection points)?

I would start with the room and speaker positioning then you can better determine the effects of various changes, like power cords and conditioners. By the way, I have a Torus AVR, replaced my Shunyata conditioner. Sounds great by letting the music flow.
 

As for optimizing your room, read articles from Art Noxon of Acoustical Sciences Corporation (ASC). I would start with diffusion across the soundstage, back wall behind the listening position and at the fist reflection points on the side walls and ceiling. I would also use base traps in each corner. 
 

Be prepared to spend as much as you would on a component upgrade. 

I have had some expensive audience and shunyatas.I remember my first run with a simple hydra 4.It was like ok this is something i can get use to...it still remains the simple effective box after all these years of not having one and installing one i had bought a couple weeks ago.Triton 3 and cable should be off the charts....hope it makes for a great experience for you WD1099

Also - AC noise (THD) is not something you consciously hear from your speakers in most cases. But when it’s removed, if effective in your system, you may notice a quietness that surrounds vocals and instruments that wasn’t there before, allowing more detail, air and soundstage depth to come through.

@nyev - that is usually my first clue that a system is getting good.
When the system has a sort of quietness, but the SPL meter is high and one cannot hold a conversation… that is pretty good sign that the distortion is not wildly high.

@wheelndeal1099 , good luck and let us know the results. Try to resist making any judgements for at least a week if not longer, and leave your system on quietly.

I always get impatient and make rush judgements when trying new gear. My final assessment after at least a week with it is rarely consistent with my initial assessment (although my amp was an exception, as it was awesome from the start and remained that way).

After burn-in and after you adjust, try removing the new cord and conditioner and then see what you think.

Also - AC noise (THD) is not something you consciously hear from your speakers in most cases. But when it’s removed, if effective in your system, you may notice a quietness that surrounds vocals and instruments that wasn’t there before, allowing more detail, air and soundstage depth to come through. I agree with others that connecting amps to conditioners is detrimental to them (except for Torus which is not a conditioner), but your results could easily vary. Nothing is a sure thing in this hobby.

@nyev  My Shunyata Triton V3 arrives tomorrow, along with a Shunyata Alpha XC PC for the conditioner.  I will soon see if there is any black magic with a conditioner.  Seeing that I live in Chicago, and 3/4 of a block from my house is a busy main street for my neighborhood.  I have a hard time believing I have clean power.  

While I don't have any auditable noise coming out of my speakers.  I do from time to time get transistor hum from my amps.  The McIntosh amp was the worst, my ATI amps it's rare and the Luxman never makes a sound.  Either way I'm sure there is room for improvement. 

@jl1ny   I have a JL Audio Fathom 113V2.  At first I was only using it with the Datasat for HT.  A few days ago I used the pre out on the Luxman to see how it would integrate.  Let's just say it is still connected to the Luxman.  

While the KEFs have nice bass, the addition of the 113 just made everything so much better!  

@coachpoconnor , well put. And I’ve experienced the phenomenon that you have, with your system becoming WAY more sensitive to certain variables as you upgrade it to become more resolving. In my case this happened when I upgraded to Nordost Valhalla 2 speaker cables, from Clarus Crimson Biwire’s. I had them pre burned-in by my dealer, and connected them up late at night and was floored at the detail and the 3D soundstage depth that they exposed. Everything became clear and snapped into focus. Woke up next day and was excited to listen again over morning coffee, and…. What the hell? What happened to my soundstage depth? Everything is compressed and foggy now! I thought I might be imagining it but then I tried again late at night and again I was treated to a mesmerizing and holographic experience. After a few weeks of this I realized my incoming power is cleaner at night when my neighborhood is asleep. Bought a Torus, installed dedicated lines, and now all is (mostly) well. In that now it sounds great in the day and I can’t complain. But it STILL sounds best at night. I think most have this experience, for those who have highly resolving systems.

And to your point, after upgrading to the Valhalla 2 speaker cables, there is no doubt the differences in power cords became magnified.  It’s not the highest impact component in the system, but I do find power cords can have a profound impact soundstage depth, and the 3D presentation of vocals and instruments, and the “air” around vocals and instruments.

Fwiw, you might want to consider adding a subwoofer into your rig. That alone will change the depth and scale of the presentation.

When I was getting back into Audio a few years ago, I purchased a $100 Silnote power cord for a NuForce STA-200. The change was HUGE! My deaf mother and father could have probably heard the difference.

Pass Labs and First Watt includes a very substantial generic power cord with his amplifiers. I have tried various power cords with his amps, some I liked a little better than the included cord and others I did not. In several emails, I attempted to get Nelson Pass to recommend an aftermarket power for his equipment. He has always stated that the cord he sends out is very good, but never indicated that there might be cords that some might like better. Getting into the power cord recommendation business might be a rabbit hole that Nelson does not want to travel.

In my system the BorderPartrol DAC responded quite well to a aftermarket power cord.

From my experience, Horn speakers and single driver speakers are more resolving than other more conventional speakers and tend to reveal changes in cabling more readily.

To disagree with the double naught spy crowd; in a good resolving system it all matters.

Yah...and the election was stolen.

@secretguy @jasonbourne52 

"If changing an interconnect or power cord brought a real sonic improvement it would be a wonderful world indeed! Alas ..."

What a wonderful world we live in!

Lol…. I do get a kick out of the audiosciencereview channel.  I find it amusing and utterly useless.  I do agree with Amir’s take on the importance of blind testing though.  Everyone is subject to confirmation bias, to varying degrees.  But nobody today can simply measure what gear will sound good or bad.  And given the small niche of our hobby I have a hunch that developing formulas to calculate performance of audiophile-grade equipment is not really considered a burning problem for humanity to tackle.  I think it’s one notch down from finding the cure for sleep.

@juanmanuelfangioii 

+1

FACT!

It's like Audio Science Review, if the site owner can't measure it, then it doesn't matter.  Problem with that theory is most of the stuff that guy suggests as great due to measurements, sounds like garbage. 

@audphile1 That is what I intend to do.  It's like Audio Science Review, if the site owner can't measure it, then it doesn't matter.  Problem with that theory is most of the stuff that guy suggests as great due to measurements, sounds like garbage.  

Pulling my speakers out into my room has helped to broaden my soundstage and create more air around individual instruments.  The problem is, this isn't a dedicated music room.  I could pull the speakers out another foot, but it would ruin the function of the room.  

I'll soon find out how the other things improve or don't improve things.   

Thanks for all the advise and suggestions! 

Agree with @audphile1 .  In my case, just for fun I tried substituting my very expensive Audioquest Dragon cord feeding my Torus RM20 with the stock Torus power cord.  The Torus in turn powers my entire system.

My initial impression was, it sounds much different, and actually not bad at all!  There was an immediacy and crispness that became more apparent with the stock cord.  But, the major difference was that the soundstage was all on one level, with less dimensionality to vocals and instruments, less air, and less of a holographic presentation.  

As stated your results may vary.  Of note, Torus told me they thought the cord from the Torus to your components matters more than the cord from the wall to the Torus, but as always, they said listen to your own ears.  Great advice.

@wheelndeal1099 don’t let anyone tell you what you will hear. Go ahead and explore it for yourself. If you do or do not hear an improvement, you know you tried and move on. 

@avanti1960 ​​@secretguy

Excerpt from the Pass Labs XA30.8 manual…

Power Cords: Pass Labs provides a power supply cord that meets all legislated requirements for the market in which the product was originally sold. If you choose to substitute an af- ter-market product we urge you to choose one that is fully safety rated by the necessary local authority.

Hey even in the older .5 series the manual stated the exactly the same as the X.8 series manual I cited above.

I have owned both the .5 and the .8 series Pass amps and each amp reacted to power cord changes.

Just curious…what is your source for this information? Link us to the article where Pass says he doesn’t think aftermarket cords make a difference. The “quote” you posted says nothing about that and just translates to the capabilities of the stock cord to adequately power the amp

What’s your personal experience with pass amps and aftermarket cords? If you have none you’re just theorizing.

No matter the vendor they always say that their products cannot be improved on. 

Correct. Almost always. Yet, if you encounter them in audio shows, various in-house demonstrations, at dealers, etc. etc.... you will never find them hooked up to $2 junk power cords, or colored (also junk) interconnects, or lamp cords for speakers.

power cord - si......power condition- non

@wheelndeal1099 , try a demo of 1.5 or 2m quality USB cord. You might be surprised at the results….

No matter the vendor they always say that their products cannot be improved on. Best policy is to try for yourself, ideally with a blind test so it is objective, and see what you hear. Power cables can help improve soundstage depth, but I agree they shouldn’t be your first focus to address this issue though.

Meh. What does Nelson Pass know?

@nyev  My usb cable is pretty short, I'll have to look at it but I think it is around a meter.  I've also heard that a longer power cord will work better than short one.   Never experimented with it thought.   

As to speaker toe in, KEF states in their owners manual for the KEF Reference to not toe the speaker in much.  They claim that their speaker design doesn't need toe in like many other speakers.  I've played extensively with this over the 2 years I've had these speakers and I agree.  When I used Monitor Audio speakers they responded well with pointing the speakers at ones shoulders as someone suggested. 

While I'm new to a dedicated 2 channel set up, I've had many very high end HT processors over the years.  Lyngdorf MP-50, Lydgdorf MP-60 2.1, and now a Datasat LS-10.  I've also had some very nice amps including 3 BHK 300's that ran my front speakers.  The issue that I kept running into with the amps is nothing really sounded better than my current ATI amps.  A Mcintosh MC207 was the worst amp I've ever had in my system.   Now with the Luxman, I am seeing a nice improvement with things.

I did order a Shunyata Triton V3 with an Alpha HC PC.  I should have that possibly tomorrow.  It was between the Shunyata and the Torus I'm going to also order some sound panels to take care of the first reflection point.   I live in the City of Chicago, so I have a hard time believing my power supply is clean.  We will see, if the Triton doesn't do anything for me, I'll sell it.  

in the words of Nelson Pass the power cables supplied with Pass amplifiers are sufficient to deliver more current than the amplifier is capable of.  Typical of most reputable amplifiers.  

Bark up another tree to improve the sound in the ways you are attempting.  

One clarification - when I mentioned that the Torus is not a conditioner, I meant not in the traditional sense. Rather than filtering noise out, it electrically isolates your system from your house’s AC.

Interestingly, it was Nordost who first turned me on to Torus, when I had some questions about my Valhalla 2 speaker cables. They told me they thought conditioners can be tricky and unpredictable and yes, they also mentioned they can have an effect on tonal balance. They then suggested I look into Torus, along with another industry-veteran contact of mine who also strongly suggested Torus.

The RM20 definitely helps with soundstage depth. Details become more coherent, and I find that mid and upper detail are prerequisites for soundstage depth. Or maybe they just happen to always go together, not sure. But as mentioned speaker position and room treatment first…

And, dare I say it given the controversy in my other thread regarding power cord length: I think @ghdprentice found that when comparing like power cords of differing lengths, the longer cord offered a deeper soundstage? His test was with Audioquest Hurricanes.  And while I think of it - in my experience if you are using a USB cord shorter than 1.5m that will also clobber your soundstage depth somewhat and will compress everything more.  I did this test with two Audioquest  Diamond USB cords and two Nordost Valhalla 2 USB cords.  The longer cords from both manufacturers were blatantly better than the shorter cords in terms of openness, detail and soundstage depth.  I thought it might be a burn in issue at first so I actually ran the cords hundreds of hours, with no change - longer cords were superior.  So you might want to ensure you have no ultra short USB cables.  

I agree with most here that speaker placement and room treatments is the place to start. You need to get that right first.  The biggest thing that made an impact to soundstage depth for me is having the speakers towed out, so that they are almost firing straight ahead.  But that applies to my B&W 802’s, it might be different for you.  Definitely suggest playing with toeing out your speakers though, in addition to the other suggestions regarding speaker placement.

After that, for sure, I find power cables (and other cabling) and conditioners all play into the degree of soundstage depth as well.   However I found that the few conditioners I tried altered the tonal balance adversely.  I found that the Torus RM20 (which is not a conditioner but rather a big honking isolation transformer that weighs 90 pounds - super simple and super effective) was far more even handed and has more instantaneous current supply than your amp could ever want.  Torus told me that moving up to the more expensive AVR20 is pointless provided your AC supply stays within 4V of 120VAC.  They suggested I purchase a Kill-A-Watt meter from Amazon, which I did, and I found my voltage to be fine.  So I stuck with the RM20.  

After testing my amp (Gryphon Diablo 300 integrated) connected to the Torus and to the wall, I found it was actually best through the Torus.  This was NOT the case with the Audioquest Niagara 5000 I demoed where my amp sounded unquestionably better connected directly to the wall.

I know everybody is different but to this day best improvement I’ve experienced was adding a power conditioner. I added a Pass Seymour outlet and was a little taken back with what I heard so decided to try a Running Springs Hayley almost 20 years ago.

Noise floor went black from what it was. Every musician in the sound stage had there own space/air around them. I had never heard anything like that, with every move up the Running Springs line was an improvement. 

Maybe everyone’s system reacts different but I have always used a passive conditioner since the day I put the Running Springs in my system. Power cables are also as important in my room. They all have there own flavor which makes things fun. Don’t even get me talking about high end outlets.

@secretguy I believe you, and I think you’ve formulated your statement in the best way possible when you stated

I have yet to hear a power cord make a difference

I don’t doubt that at all and I think that’s totally cool. Many reasons why that could be.
However, it doesn’t mean others don’t hear a difference or shouldn’t try to explore what potential changes different power cords have to offer. But this isn’t what this thread is about anyways so we’ll stay on topic.

ozzy62

2,458 posts

09-05-2022 at 07:17am 

 

 

 

 

secretguy

1,023 posts

09-04-2022 at 09:49pm 

I have yet to hear a power cord make a difference.

 

My money is on “you’ve never even tried”…..

You would be wrong. Doubtless, not the first time.

If you have dirty/noisy power, than a power conditioner can be great. If you have clean and quiet power, than a power conditioner is most likely a waste of money. A couple of houses ago I had noisy power and I bought an Audience AR-6 and it worked like a charm. A few years later, we moved out to gods country.  A brand new subdivision, new everything  and the power was excellent. I ended up putting the AR-6 back in mostly because of the magnetic circuit breaker.  Now I’m back in the city again and my power is mostly good at night, but it’s all over the place during the day, so the AR-6 is in.

Hello Op

You have a great start to your system but you will find over time you will continue to chase the elusive dream of perfect sound for the rest of your life.  Yes, a good Power Conditioner will help.  I have an Inakustic 3500P.   Yes, a good Power cord will help and so will interconnects.  Even a great fuse will help a lot in your system. 

As others have mentioned speaker placement is important and a no-cost option.  Room treatments are really important depending on your room.  Do you have bass boom or echoing?    

I had the Lumin U-1 mini, D-2, A-1 and X-1 Streamer / DAC's.  As you go up the line each improved my sound dramatically.  Now I have a Lampizator Pacific DAC and Lucas Audio Music Server and my SQ is several notches up.  And if you go to tubes, just changing the tubes can alter the sound.

I have been testing multiple RCA, SPDIF, and USB cables in the last two weeks.  I will play the same songs for hours using different cables.  It is amazing to see how each cable affects the sound.  My next test will be with a few Power Cords.

So in summary, to answer your questions...Yes and Yes.  Everything you do will help improve the sound.  It might not be much but every detail counts.  Enjoy the journey and when your wife asks you is this it...just smile at her and wink.  

I would start with speaker placement and room acoustics. What’s on the floor between you and the speakers? Place an area rug if you have bare floors. 

Move speakers to be about 4ft from the front wall. That should deepen the soundstage. 

Treat first reflection points at a minimum since you already have bass traps. Diffusion or absorption on first reflection points should help widen the soundstage. 
GIK Acoustics panels work pretty good  

Power conditioner on source components should also help. Depending on how dirty your power is, lowering the noise floor will help the details emerge out of a much quieter background. You have decent power cords but it wouldn’t hurt to experiment. If you’re changing the power cords tackle the amp cord first.

I’ve found higher end Audioquest Storm series high-current power cables on power conditioner and amplifier make a nice improvement in my system.
I’m using AQ Hurricane on power conditioner and Tornado on amp. There are tons of other options you just need to try…after you get your room acoustics squared away. Just my thoughts. Have fun and good luck!

I recently replaced my stock power cables with Cardas Clear Beyond to my Electrocompaniet AW400's which run Kef Blades and I and my wife noticed a definite improvement with what you're looking for. Yes my room is already treated.

Great sonic improvements were made with a dedicated 20A circuit, a PS Audio PowerPort Plug, and a good power cord to my amp. Did try plugging my amp to a Panamax conditioner that I use for low current components, it was awful.

@thyname

Let’s just leave it here:

OK. Fair. Nothing you said is essentially terribly wrong.

Once the OP sees if anything helpful can be done with speaker placement, then they can do the power cords.

My main statement was that I would do the easy stuff first.

Since we seem to agree on that, let’s just stop there for now.

OK. Fair. Nothing you said is essentially terribly wrong. Show me your room & your room treatments and I will eat crow. You can PM me or post a picture of your system here under “systems”.

also:

But I am more of a cable denier

The good thing , again, is admit this 😂

And for some reason, you folks believe that people who spend $1,000+ on a power cord do not take care of their room and the room treatments and speakers positioning 🤦‍♂️🙄

You quoted me on this:

From my own experience with real people, those who proclaim power cords and conditioners make zero difference, and room is all that matters, typically have zero room treatments in their rooms. They just love to bash cables. As they say, don’t pay attention to the preaching of a naked priest. Or something like that.

 

Why not both, power (distributor and cables) and room treatments. And honestly implementing room treatment is relatively inexpensive in the grand scheme of things.It just needs a lot of work. For me, I gotten everything I could possibly need, goods and advice, from GIK Acoustics. And of course, speaker placement, toe in, distance from listening position, etc. which are of course …. Free. Just some work.

From my own experience with real people, those who proclaim power cords and conditioners make zero difference, and room is all that matters, typically have zero room treatments in their rooms. They just love to bash cables. As they say, don’t pay attention to the preaching of a naked priest. Or something like that.

“Why not both,” is because the power cord and conditioner cannot fix a room, nor fix placement.

One cannot change the physics of the room interaction with a high $ cable.

Secondly, it is better to do the things have have a greater impact first, as well as the things that do not require a trip to the store.

Cleaning corrosion off the RCA/XLR and speaker connectors… and making sure that outlets connections are tight are some of the things that can make a difference. But moving a speaker almost always has a huge impact. And it can take hours or days of futzing around.

Once all that is done, I stop… But I am more of a cable denier so there is that. But a believer should probably start their cable search when the system is “as right as it can be.” And not start with cables and power conditioners as a strategy to fix and room and speaker placement issues.