I've been using a pair of Velodyne HGS-10s to supplement KEF LS50s below 50 Hz, but I read that larger subs are better for music because the cone needs excursion. Is there any truth to this? I have a pair of HGS-15s that I could use to supplement the LS50s or Reference 1s (below 40 Hz) if I go there. The HGS-15s do HT superbly.
@wolf_garcia wrote: "I’ve been in the actual music biz for over 5 decades...back when we used Altec A7s (extremely efficient) we typically ran maybe 200 watts into the bass speakers and 50 to 100 into the horns to make things balanced. Now I use 1500 watt powered bass systems, with maybe 350 watts per side for full range main speakers. Look at meters for output on home gear and you get the story...bass frequencies take up a lot of juice, even with efficient speakers...they simply do."
I think I see where our disconnect lies. I think you and I are mis-communicating.
You’re saying that you have observed amplifying (or reproducing) bass takes more power than reproducing the rest of the spectrum, and I’ve been saying that if a speaker has a flat frequency response, by definition the same power input produces the same SPL output up and down the spectrum (including in the bass region).
I think we are both right. What we are missing is, equal-loudness curves. I think they will explain why the needle jumps on the drum hits.
In order for the fundamental of the kick (ballpark 50 Hz) to be perceived as being as loud as the electric guitars, its actual SPL must be MUCH higher, like about 20 dB higher!
That 20 dB peak for the kickdrum’s fundamental would call for a 100-fold increase in power over what the guitar needs (assuming the speaker’s efficiency is the same at 50 Hz as in the mids and low treble). In other words, the kick must be LOUD for its fundamental to come through with authority! THAT is why the needles jump!
My numbers may be off a bit - the kick’s fundamental is probably not as loud as the guitars - but I think the principle is valid, and I think it explains the apparent discrepancy between what you and I have been saying.
For one thing we’re discussing subs, not full range. For another thing the reason you need a lot of power for many speakers to produce bass is that they are 3 dB or 6 dB or 9dB down at very low frequencies. Many speakers are more than 9 dB down 25 Hz. Which is why you sometimes need a sub in the first place. Hel-loo! If you need a lot of power to get decent bass you’re doing it all wrong. This ain’t rocket science, folks. 🚀
I've been in the actual music biz for over 5 decades...back when we used Altec A7s (extremely efficient) we typically ran maybe 200 watts into the bass speakers and 50 to 100 into the horns to make things balanced. Now I use 1500 watt powered bass systems, with maybe 350 watts per side for full range main speakers. Look at meters for output on home gear and you get the story...bass frequencies take up a lot of juice, even with efficient speakers...they simply do.
"Bass frequencies absolutely require MUCH more power than treble or mids, to state otherwise is ridiculous."
The musical spectrum normally has more energy at low frequencies than at mid and high frequencies, with 400 Hz being the approximate midpoint for power distribution.
But if a speaker is "flat" down to 20 Hz, then by definition that means it requires the same amount of power to reach a given SPL at 20 Hz as it does elsewhere in the spectrum.
The reason a subwoofer might need a 500 watt amp to keep up with speakers that only need 50 watts is, the subwoofer is perhaps 10 dB less efficient than the main speakers. The way to get deep bass extension in a small box is to trade off efficiency (or to equalize, which is another way of doing the same thing). If the subwoofer box was 10 times larger, its efficiency would be 10 dB higher (perhaps matching that of the main speakers). But it’s more practical to build a 500 watt amp into a small sub than to have a much more efficient large sub.
As I've stated previously, I was originally very skeptical about the DEBRA dba system. The $3K price, having the space in my room to locate 4 subs in my 23 x 16 foot room without issues, would the system actually work as advertised and would it disturb my system's already very good sound stage illusion (that I really enjoyed) were all important concerns I had. I justified the price as about the same amount I was already going to spend on my original bass improvement plan of buying 2 conventional self-amplified Vandersteen, JL or REL subs and positioning them to optimize the bass response at my listening seat. The room space concern I resolved by just committing to rearranging my living/listening room furniture and system if required for the sake of good bass response throughout my entire room. Fortunately, after completing the progressive sub setup procedure I discovered this was no longer an issue. Subs #1 and #2 sounded best positioned along my front 16' wall with each hidden from view by a 6'h x2'w mains speaker panel. Subs #3 and #4 sounded best positioned with one along each 23' side wall. Both are out of the way and partially hidden from view, one by a large end table and the other by a large reclining leather chair. My concern about whether the DEBRA dba system would provide sota bass response as advertised was lessened gradually. It began to be reduced as I began researching and learning online about the theory behind dba systems, experimental results and practical applications. White Papers (summaries of their research) I read authored by leading dba researchers Dr. Earl Geddes and Dr. Floyd O'Toole, along with email and phone discussions with James Romeyn of Audio Kinesis, continued to increase my confidence in dba systems and alleviate my concerns . The 30-day free in-home trial period offered by Audio Kinesis on the DEBRA system overcame my final concern about whether the mono dba would negatively affect my system's already very good sound stage illusion so I decided to purchase the DEBRA. Ultimately, the sota bass of the DEBRA, even though it's the combined outputted sound of 4 separate mono subs, integrated precisely and seamlessly. I perceived the bass as originating from all the proper bass instruments and singers within my still very good sound stage illusion. As I understand it, the extremely accurate, defined, natural and dynamic sounding bass reproduced by the DEBRA dba subs are all operating in mono, partially being reproduced from 4 separate subs located at different directions and distances from my 'sweet spot' listening seat (sub#1 along the front 16' wall about 3' in from the right 23' wall and about 18' away from my seat, sub#2 along the front 16' wall about 3' in from the left 23' wall and about 18' away from my seat, sub#3 along my left 23' side wall about 3' in from the rear 16' wall and about 8' away from my seat and sub#4 along my right 23' side wall about 3' in from the rear 16' wall and about 8' away from my seat.) and with each launching long bass sound waves that are all deep enough in frequency response that they should not be able to be perceived by myself as directional.
So how am I able to perceive these long bass sound waves as emanating from the proper physical locations within the very stable and solid sound stage illusion seemingly spread across the front of my 16' front wall (with the width, depth and specific locations of the lllusionary musicians and instruments varying with this sound stage illusion depending on the recording) if these bass sound waves are truly non-directional?
I believe the answer lies in the fact that all recorded deep bass sound is comprised not only of the fundamental notes that are physically represented by low frequency sound waves that are non-directional but also of the deep bass note's harmonic notes that are physically represented by higher frequency sound waves that are directional. It is these higher frequency bass note harmonics, high enough in frequency that they are reproduced by my system's main l+r speakers and not by any of the 4 subs that are typically restricted by the crossover setting to reproducing those that are 40 Hz and below, that actually allows the brain to determine where the fundamental bass note is emanating from. Well, I hope my words were adequate in communicating this rather complex concept. If not, please let me know if you need me to clarify anything. If so, please let me know your thoughts on this concept.
I definitely don't consider myself an expert on in-home bass systems. I'm just a music and ht enthusiast who's always enjoyed the realism provided in both by very good bass response and I've been searching for a method to attain this in my system for decades. I believe I've discovered a concept, the distributed bass array system, and a couple of complete dba kit products , the Audio Kinesis Swarm and DEBRA 4 sub dbas, that I'm thrilled with because the DEBRA system I bought and installed has finally provided what I consider sota bass response to my system for both music and ht. I now feel an obligation to spread the word on this high performance bass system solution on this high performance audio/video internet discussion forum site. I have no connections to Audio Kinesis besides being a very satisfied customer.
It depends on the power available and the efficiency of the subwoofer. And of course the capability of the subwoofer, Bass frequencies do not inherently require more power than any other frequencies. Other factors can be involved such as absorption of frequencies in a given room, standing waves, etc.
"Also lower bass frequencies take exponentially more power to produce flat response so you better have plenty of good clean amp power in those subs too to carry the load. The more the better. Not enough power in reserve is perhaps the most common cause of bad sounding bass."
Well, it depends on the specifics. Some subs rely on aggressive EQ to go deep. The DEBRA and Swarm systems do not.
The DEBRA and Swarm systems use individual subwoofer modules whose native response is the approximate inverse of typical room gain from boundary reinforcement (which is +3 dB per octave south of 100 Hz, according to Martin Colloms). The Debra and Swarm subs have a native response that falls at about 3 dB per octave from 80 Hz down to 20 Hz. This is a more gentle rolloff that you can get from an unequalized sealed box.
In many smaller rooms this ends up giving you more low end than you need. One option is to invert the polarity of one of the four subs. Doing so often further improves the in-room bass smoothness in my experience. And since small rooms are the ones that usually have the most room for improvement in the bass region, this works out well. This is not the only trick the DEBRA and Swarm systems have up their sleeves - they are highly adjustable in the acoustic domain, and still have EQ available in their amplifier if needed.
One advantage of not relying on power-hungry EQ to go deep is, we’ve never had an amplifier fail due to being over-driven. And we’ve only had one woofer failure in twelve years. That's less than 1%, and it was an 8" woofer (which we no longer use) in an early version of the Swarm.
Size and # drivers (including passive radiators) is often a general indicator of how low a sub might go but you really have to check the specs to get a good idea how a sub will perform
Also lower bass frequencies take exponentially more power to produce flat response so you better have plenty of good clean amp power in those subs too to carry the load. The more the better. Not enough power in reserve is perhaps the most common cause of bad sounding bass.
erik_squires: " TBC, having the space and money to have 4 subs is not the normal music lover's situation."
erik, Understood. I consider myself fortunate that I was able to accommodate the relatively small 4 Debra subs in my room without issue and inconspicuously. As for the money, I don't have an abundance but I could afford $3K and consider it a bargain.
erik_squires: "@mapman was talking to that. He was not discrediting the use of 4 subs." mapman: "
noble yes for 20 hz in large room you need at least 1 larger sub up to the task (check specs) or multiple subs or drivers. Distributed multiple subs or sub array allows more for smoother bass response throughout a room than extending low end frequency response."
erik and mapman, Yes, I didn't think mapman was discrediting the use of 4 subs, either. I just wasn't sure if he knew that the Debra/Swarm dbas are capable of reproducing deep bass down to 20 Hz +/- 3 dB in any sized room (running in mono and in combination) and that 'at least 1 larger sub up to the task' is not required to reproduce bass this deep even in a large room.
wolf_garcia: "
Why does anybody care if the bass is distributed evenly around the room? Is this so you can enjoy accurate bass while doing your yoga headstand against the wall?"
wolf, I find it disturbing that you're aware I enjoy accurate bass while I'm doing my yoga headstands against my wall. As to why I care if the bass is distributed evenly around the room, see clio09's post and my reply below:
clio09: "
I hardly ever sit in the sweet spot. and I have never been concerned with getting the deepest bass. I can't think of any of my guests wanting to stack up on or behind the sweet spot either, but we all want to hear good sound wherever we are in the room, or house for that matter. Not to mention I disliked having my guests ask me about all the acoustic panels I had and why. They appreciate my art collection that hangs on the wall now much more. Thanks to the 4 box distributed array we can eat, drink and enjoy music. Room size is 14 x 20 so with their small footprint they fit quite nicely and nobody trips over them."
clio and wolf, I agree with clio, my guests and I all want to hear good sound wherever we are in my room. There is just one 'sweet spot' seat in my room for best overall performance but I and my guests think music still sounds good throughout the entire room because it's full range everywhere, from as deepest bass to highest treble as the musical content possesses. Yes, the very realistic, solid and stable sound stage illusion existing only at the 'sweet spot' seat is missing. But the overall sound of well recorded music reproduced in high quality utilizing the actual complete audible range can still be enjoyed throughout the entire room, even when seated at a table in the adjoining dining room. My wife, guests and I also enjoy the evenly distributed sota bass response for ht. Our room has 6 seats with good views of a 65" plasma hdtv. The 4 sub Debra dba is part of a 5.4 DD surround sound system that, along with the large hdtv, allows for very good A/V reproduction experiences to be enjoyed at each of these 6 seats. I realize this ht capacity is not relevant to some of you but it is to me, my wife, guests and likely some readers of this thread.
I hardly ever sit in the sweet spot. and I have never been concerned with getting the deepest bass. I can't think of any of my guests wanting to stack up on or behind the sweet spot either, but we all want to hear good sound wherever we are in the room, or house for that matter. Not to mention I disliked having my guests ask me about all the acoustic panels I had and why. They appreciate my art collection that hangs on the wall now much more. Thanks to the 4 box distributed array we can eat, drink and enjoy music. Room size is 14 x 20 so with their small footprint they fit quite nicely and nobody trips over them.
Why does anybody care if the bass is distributed evenly around the room? Is this so you can enjoy accurate bass while doing your yoga headstand against the wall? Weeping about things in the corner until the housekeeper finds you? I use 2 subs that seem to help cancel some room standing wave issues, but I do serious listening from my specific sweet spot (like most audio geeks) which is where stereo mixes actually work. If anybody wants to really appreciate my rig along with me, it's necessary they sit in my lap or stand behind me while I sit in my "magic" spot. Also, it's possible to get great (and musically rewarding) sound from one sub as this is generally better than no sub at all. Movie sound is the McDonalds of audio...lots of salt and fat to make you feel good initially, but it has very little to do with good food...as a reference for audio, film sound is a ridiculous mix of extremes that isn't really designed for music appreciation. If you spend your time listening to and enjoying the digital reproduction of Army tanks and explosions, you're unique and hat's off to you!
Ideally I would want 2-4 larger quality subs distributed around a room but practically I do not want to have to deal with all that so I go with just a single smaller sub that is easier to manage. This is in a second system. My main system has full range speakers so no subs needed.
noble yes for 20 hz in large room you need at least 1 larger sub up to teh task (check specs) or multiple subs or drivers. Distributed multiple subs or sub array allows more for smoother bass response throughout a room than extending low end frequency response..
TBC, having the space and money to have 4 subs is not the normal music lover's situation.
@mapman was talking to that. He was not discrediting the use of 4 subs.
I too will never be able to have more than 1 sub in my listening area so to me, the 4 sub array point is moot.
That doesn't mean I don't see the merits. From a cost/performance space situation, the bass traps + eq are the far better and cheaper option, but hey, I make my own loudspeakers so the measurement and calibration is waaay easier for me than the average music lover.
Sorry, I'm a bit confused by your last post. As I understand it and in other words, you're stating that deep bass extension down to about 20 Hz can be achieved in most larger rooms through either a single large sub with a large driver or through multiple subs each with smaller drivers.possibly also incorporating passive radiators. And you add that you're unaware of any single 8" driver sub that can reproduce deep bass down to the typical audible limit of 20 Hz. If the above accurately reflects your thoughts, I agree with you.
But then you go on to state: "
If your mains are larger and more full range you will likely have to go with a larger 12" or even larger sub in order to cover the lowest frequencies not covered otherwise by the mains."
I think I clearly understand your statement but disagree with it. I believe, in your quoted example above, that excellent in-room bass response down to 20 Hz +/- 3 dB can be achieved in virtually any sized room through the use of 4 smaller subs with 10" drivers if configured as a distributed bass array system. I believe this because my mains are larger and are run full range but only extend down to about 34 Hz. I utilize a db, consisting of 4 smaller subs with 10" drivers, in my medium sized? (23 x 16 foot) room to provide excellent in-room bass response from 20-40 Hz +/- 3 dB that integrate seamlessly with my large Magnepan panel mains for both music and ht. I understand you don't currently require this degree of bass extension in your own system but thought you'd like to know this type of bass extension is possible in virtually any sized room without the need for subs with 12" or larger drivers .
Room size and low frequency extension desired determines how large a sub need be. In general you need a larger sub with a larger bass driver or possibly somewhat smaller if multiple drivers or passive radiators are used if your room is larger and you want bass to extend all the way down to 20 hz or so which is typically about as low as any music like low pipe organ notes might go.
So basically size does matter when it comes to extended bass.
For example I use a 8" sub with dual pasive radiators that can go down to almost 30 hz or so in a modest sized room. I use these with small monitors somewhat similar in size to kef ls50 that do little below 60hz or so. I don't know of any any single driver 8" sub that can do that.
If your mains are larger and more full range you will likely have to go with a larger 12" or even larger sub iin order to cover the lowest frequencies not covered otherwise by the mains.
No matter how high quality or expensive the subs utilized, having just 2 subs in any given room/system is incapable of producing sota bass response throughout the entire room. The optimum potential is good bass reproduction at a single 'sweet spot'. Is there a recommended positioning method that Vandersteen or you provide to customers? Thanks, Tim
Without prejudice to all the good comments highlighting the warts introduced by poor room acoustics, It’s not about size of the sub but rather the quality of build of a sub that has a large determinate in how it sounds to you.
There are good ones out there including ATC and the Vandy highlighted herein and others. Their common element is quality build .
here is a repost .... The following article has been posted before and is rehashed again below - one of the finer reads in the subwoofer selection tree .... best article I’ve seen discussing subwoofers for non-HT applications.
"…And Why a Really Good Subwoofer is so Hard to Find
Audiophiles and music lovers are missing out on one of the most dramatic improvements they can make to their audio system: Powered Subwoofers.
Most audiophiles won’t even use the word “subwoofer” in public, let alone plug one in to their precious systems. There is a kind of snobbery that exists in the world of high-end audio aimed primarily at receivers, car audio, home theater and especially subwoofers. As a matter of fact, subwoofers are responsible for many people disliking both car audio and home theater, since it is the subwoofer in both of those situations that tends to call attention to the system and cause many of the problems.
The truth of the matter is that subwoofers have fully earned their bad reputation. They usually suck. Most of them sound boomy, muddy and out of control with an obnoxious bass overhang that lingers so long as to blur most of the musical information up until the next bass note is struck.
We have all had our fair share of bad subwoofer experiences, whether it’s from a nearby car thumping so loud that it appears to be bouncing up off the road, or a home theater with such overblown bass that it causes you to feel nauseous half-way through the movie. You would think that high-end audio manufacturers would be above all of that, but you would be wrong. In many cases, their subwoofers are almost as bad as the mass-market models because they too, are trying to capitalize on the home theater trend that is sweeping the land.
You see, it’s very difficult and expensive to build a good subwoofer. One reason is that a sub has to move a tremendous amount of air, which places big demands on the driver (or drivers). Moving lots of air requires a lot of power and that means an amp with a huge power supply, which can cost huge money.
Finally, in trying to move all of this air, the driver (or drivers) which operate in an enclosure, create tremendous pressure inside of the box itself. The cabinet walls must be able to handle this pressure without flexing or resonating. Building such a box involves heavy damping and bracing which gets very expensive. When you consider these requirements, you quickly realize that it is virtually impossible to build a really good subwoofer (I mean good enough for a high-end music system) for under $1000. Yet most of the subwoofers out there sell for between $500 and $900. Manufacturers do this because their marketing research has shown them that that is what people want to spend on a sub, never mind the fact that what people want to spend and what it takes to get the job done right may be two different things. The result is that even most high-end manufacturers are putting out poorly constructed subwoofers that just don’t sound very good.
I don’t want to give you the impression that anyone who really wants to can build a good subwoofer so long as they are willing to throw enough money at the problem, because that really isn’t true either. There are some pretty expensive and well-constructed subwoofers out there that you would never want to plug into your music system because they would most certainly make the sound worse.
Why? Because of their crossovers.
A crossover is inserted into your signal path in order to remove the lowest frequencies (the deep bass) from your main speakers so that they no longer have to do all of the dirty work. The deep bass will instead be dealt with by the subwoofer.
The #1 benefit of adding a high quality subwoofer to your system is not how it further extends the bass response, but how it can dramatically improve the sound of your existing power amp and main speakers from the midrange on up. That, my friends, is by far the most compelling reason to add a sub to your high-end music system. Once your main speakers are freed from the burden of making deep bass, they will sound cleaner, faster and clearer, especially in the midrange and midbass.
They will also image way better because there will be far less air pressure and therefore resonance and vibration affecting their cabinet walls.
And since the power required to make the deep bass is provided by the subwoofer’s built-in amplifier, your main power amp will be free from that burden and begin to sound like a much more powerful amplifier.
The one big problem with all of this is that you need a crossover to roll off the deep bass in your system and achieve all of these benefits. And the crossover that comes with almost every subwoofer on the market will cause more damage to your signal than can be overcome by these benefits. That is the main reason that audiophiles refuse to consider adding subwoofers, even very expensive ones with well built cabinets.
Enter the Vandersteen 2Wq 300 watt powered subwoofer. This is the only subwoofer that is specifically designed to be inserted into the highest of high-end music systems without doing any harm to the precious signal.
So how does Vandersteen do it?
Simply. In fact his crossover scheme is so ingeniously simple that it’s a wonder nobody else thought of doing it the same way. I’ll spare you an in-depth description and just say that the only thing you end up inserting into your system is a couple of high quality capacitors. That’s it, nothing more!
No additional wires or gadgets enter your signal path. Hell, you don’t even have to disconnect the wire between your amp and speakers to add this subwoofer. The model 2Wq sub uses the same basic crossover scheme as the $15,000 flagship Model 5As. As a matter of fact, you can even run the specially designed Model 5A crossovers (M5-HP) with the 2Wq if you want the most transparent sound imaginable.
So what about the other reason to add a subwoofer to your system: for more powerful and extended bass? I don’t care how big your main speakers are, they’re no match for a good subwoofer in the bass.
A really good subwoofer can run rings around the best floorstanding speakers when it comes to bass extension, power and control because it is designed to be good at that and nothing but that, whereas main speakers have to be good at higher frequencies as well. Ideally, you want two subwoofers so that you have true stereo separation down deep into the bass. Stereo subs can also help to lessen room interaction problems by providing two discrete sources of bass information. Remember, if you can’t afford to buy two subwoofers at once, you can always add the second one later. Adding a pair of 300 watt powered subwoofers is exactly like adding a pair of 300 watt monoblock amplifiers to your system and upgrading to a pair of better main speakers at the same time. The beauty is that you don’t have to replace your main power amp or speakers to do it.
But there is a problem here as well.
Everything comes at a price, and the price you pay with most subwoofers is that when you add them and their built-in amplifiers to your system, they don’t tend to blend or integrate well with the sound of your power amp and speakers. This is especially true if you own a tube amp, because the character of your amp is nothing like the character of the big solid-state amp that is built into most subwoofers.
The result is that your system sounds split in half. You can hear where one part of the system leaves off (namely your amp and speakers) and where the other part takes over (the sub and its amp). This is a HUGE problem for audiophiles who aren’t willing to destroy their system’s coherence for additional power and bass extension.
Fortunately, Vandersteen has the perfect solution for this problem that is, again, so simple, I wonder why nobody else thought of it first. His solution is to build a very powerful 300 watt amplifier that strictly provides the huge current needed to drive the subwoofer. You can think of this amplifier as only half of an amplifier; or just the power portion of an amplifier. The release of this power is controlled by the signal that is provided by your power amp. Vandersteen’s amplifier needs a voltage to modulate its current output, and what better place to get that voltage than from your main power amp? This way, your power amplifier is directly responsible for the sonic character of the deep bass coming from the subwoofer because it provides the necessary voltage signal. This voltage signal contains the unique and characteristic sound of your main power amplifier and insures that that character is maintained in the sound of the subwoofer itself. The beauty of it is that your amplifier is only providing a voltage reference and no actual current, so it is not taxed with the burden of “driving” the subwoofer in any way. As a matter of fact, your amplifier doesn’t even know that the sub is connected to it. The 2Wq’s potential is almost unlimited given that it will ratchet up its performance as you improve your power amp. Remember that you always want your subwoofer to sound just like your power amp. No better, no worse. NO DIFFERENT!
After having spent time with the amazing Vandersteen Model 5A loudspeakers with their 400-watt powered, metal cone subwoofers, we were reminded of the sound we had with the awesome Audio Research Reference 600 mono power amps. With the Ref 600s there was a sense of effortlessness, openness and unrestricted dynamic freedom that we have only otherwise heard with live unamplified music.
Listening to those monstrously powerful amps made us realize that all other systems sound compressed by comparison. Only when we heard the new Vandersteen Model 5As with their hugely powerful built-in subwoofers, did we again have a strikingly similar sonic experience. The reason is that the Model 5As provide a total of 800 high-quality watts, to which you have to remember to add the power of the amp we were using, the ARC VT-100, at 200 watts.
This means we were listening to about 1000 total watts of amplifier power – not far from the 1200 total watts provided by the Ref 600s. With the Vandersteen subwoofer crossover and amplifier, you are able to get those hundreds of subwoofer watts to blend seamlessly and even take on the character of the ARC VT-100. It’s amazing! What’s even better is that the price of the system with the Model 5As and the VT-100 is under half the cost of the Ref 600s alone! Since this discovery, we have achieved the same kind of unbelievable dynamics and seamless blending with ProAc loudspeakers and twin Vandersteen 2Wq 300 watt powered subs.
So, if you want the sound of Ref 600s but cannot afford them, buy a pair of Model 5As or your favorite pair of ProAcs plus a couple of 2Wq subwoofers and mate them with a VT100 and you’ll get surprisingly close.
You can cut the cost even further by running a pair of Vandersteen 2Wq 300-watt subwoofers with your existing speakers.
Or mate a pair of 2Wqs with your favorite ProAc. In any case, it is the magic of SUBWOOFERS that allows this to happen.
It is for all of the above reasons that there is only one subwoofer in existence capable of integrating seamlessly into a high-end music system, allowing you to reap all of the benefits of having a subwoofer, with none of the drawbacks.
And the Vandersteen 2Wq is the one. And just in case you think I am a biased source, our correspondent Blaine Peck (who, for all you know is also a biased source) recently wrote the following, with no discussion between us about the topic prior to his sending us his comments.
Whether reproducing the plucked string of an acoustic bass or the sound of an analog synthesizer, the Vandersteen 2Wq subwoofer is a seamless extension of any system. Nothing else need be added! With its internal 300-watt power amplifier, it is the perfect compliment to any sound system. Designed to take on the characteristics of your main stereo amplifier, the amp in the 2Wq will not sound foreign in your system. Also, through an extension of the Vandersteen design philosophy, a unique gradually sloping crossover system is implemented so you simply do not know where your main speakers stop and the 2Wq begins.
Now that your main speaker/amplifier combination need not concern themselves with those power demanding low frequencies, they are freed up to work in a more comfortable range. Yes, now what is coming from your main speakers will sound better than ever.
The 2Wq is not just another subwoofer. It consists of three 8″ floor-facing drivers, each with a massive motor. So why not a more typical single 12″ or 15″ design? Well frankly, the mass of a larger driver will not allow it to respond as quickly as the Vandersteen 8″ drivers to today’s demanding recordings. The 2Wq’s 8″ drivers are designed to handle the content but be “fleet of foot” at the same time. Concerned about where to put them? You need not worry. With the control of both its respective level and the “q” (how loose or tight the low end is) you have the flexibility to place them in a location that fits your living environment and not sacrifice performance. The simple beauty of this product will soon become an addition to your room.
So whether on orchestral music, hard rock or something in between, the Vandersteen 2Wq will exceed your expectations...."
Iseanheis 1: "I would disagree and say that getting the phase, crossover, sub volume, and room modes taken care of are more important than a high quality sub.""
I agree and would suggest getting the room modes taken care of (significantly reduced or eliminated) is a good place to start. In my experience, this is relatively easy to do with 4 subs but more difficult to do with just 2 subs. With 2 subs, the goal needs to be lowered to taking care of room modes solely at the listening position, which is acceptable for many systems. I believe many are under the false impression that if you just use 2 high quality/expensive subs and place them in convenient positions it will result in good bass response. I would caution that this approach will likely provide plenty of bass but whether one would perceive this as 'good bass' is much less likely. I can state with certainty that utilizing 4 properly positioned subs, even if they are of lower quality and size, will result in more accurate bass that is better integrated along with the capacity for impressive bass power as well as the agility to keep pace with the fastest main speakers that never produces bass that lags behind or seems disconnected. I consider getting the crossover frequency, volume and phase set correctly as final fine tuning steps to attain a desired in-room bass response standard or preference. I just want to stress that attaining state of the art bass response via a properly setup distributed bass array system is not a matter of opinion. It is a scientifically proven method that works incredibly well in virtually any room. It just happens to have the added benefits of not requiring the highest quality subs, having the option of being bought as a complete kit or custom assembled and being affordable. I'm also certain that most, if not all, readers who audition a dba would recognize its obvious excellence quickly in their or really any system. Tim
I have a “full” range speakers supported by 2 JL212 subs. The subs Integrated with the main speakers so well that now I cannot listen to the system without the subs. The quality of the subs is very critical.
I would disagree and say that getting the phase, crossover, sub volume, and room modes taken care of are more important than a high quality sub.
A few well integrated Dayton subs can outperform a hifi subwoofer that is much higher quality.
One of the reasons some hifi folks hate subwoofers is because you can’t just spend more to get better bass. Ironically more expensive subs can just amplify problems with the room and setup since they are so powerful.
mceryn: Finally, I think DSP is a great idea when placement and room treatments have not worked. I see the three all working together as a system.
Proper positioning of my subwoofers and their onboard customizable Room Optimization has always improved their performance. I've never been satisfied with low frequency room treatments. A mater of taste and probably just lucky with my last three rooms.
"
As far as room treatments, I believe that most rooms can benefit from them. The speakers and their interaction with the room are by far the largest determining factor in sound. I do believe in optimizing placement as a first step, but then what? Most rooms have long decay times and the first reflection points are too close, causing image smearing and brightness. $500-1000 in room treatments can transform how a system sounds. There is very solid science behind the reasons for and how to treat a room. You might find this article interesting:
Finally, I think DSP is a great idea when placement and room treatments have not worked. I see the three all working together as a system."
Perhaps I wasn't clear but my comments were concerning the use of room treatments for optimizing in-room bass response, not midrange and treble response, and their general futility. I've come to the conclusion that it's best to treat my system as 2 systems: a bass system and a midrange/treble/sound stage illusion system. The 4 sub dba gets the bass sounding powerful, accurate and defined throughout my entire room without the need for any dsp, equalization or bass room treatments. It creates a solid foundation for all music and is excellent for ht. The final step is positioning the main speakers to optimize the midrange. treble and sound stage illusion at the listening position sweet spot (unfortunately, there's currently no known method of optimizing this response throughout the entire room as currently exists for bass response. via the 4 sub dba.) I completely agree with you that there are very necessary and beneficial methods, backed by solid science, of employing room treatments for optimizing the in-room midrange and treble response along with optimizing the sound stage illusion/imaging at the designated listening position. Tim
Subwoofers are a bad solution for inadequate speakers. They are mutually exclusive with high fidelity because they can never perfectly integrate. Some people and rappers don’t care about sound quality. Low-Fi is fine for them. For the rest of us, subwoofers only belong in the home theatre.
I guess it depends on what you mean by the term inadequate. After 45 years of audio and hundreds of speakers (I used to be an audio dealer and distributor) I have come to the conclusion that, for most rooms and most speaker designs, the concept of a "perfect" full range speaker is very hard to achieve; bordering on the impossible.
These days I play almost exclusively through tube components, SET and low output PP. I have extensively tested many high efficiency, single driver speakers and find that, to my ears, limiting the driver size to 8" or smaller and mating to a pair of good sealed subs gives my more audio joy and sense of performance realism than the (many pairs) pf much more expensive "full range" speakers I have played and owned in the past.
It's true: getting the best sound out of a pair of standmount speakers and separate subs isn't easy. It's a lot of work to get it just right. But IMO it's worth it.
We are going to have to disagree. The issue I have with my office is not a subwoofer issue, it is centered at 140hz, at which point a sub would be down over 20db assuming a normal 24db/octave low pass at 80hz. It doesn't matter whether I am using 1,2, 3 or 4 subs, the huge mode I have is way outside of that range.
In my office, I have 3 potential spots to put a single subwoofer. I have measured all of them carefully and done the crawl, this is the best position of my choices.
As far as room treatments, I believe that most rooms can benefit from them. The speakers and their interaction with the room are by far the largest determining factor in sound. I do believe in optimizing placement as a first step, but then what? Most rooms have long decay times and the first reflection points are too close, causing image smearing and brightness. $500-1000 in room treatments can transform how a system sounds. There is very solid science behind the reasons for and how to treat a room. You might find this article interesting:
I'm generally against the use of bass traps and other room treatments that attempt to improve in-room bass response. I much prefer reducing or eliminating the root cause of poor bass response in most rooms, the existence of bass standing sound waves that cause bass exaggeration, bass attenuation and even bass disappearance. at various specific room spots. I tend to view bass room treatments as misguided, similar to using air conditioners at specific spots to reduce the heat in a room that gets too hot on cold days. Just as a lack of room air circulation is often the root cause of poor room temperature control, a lack of room bass sound waves circulation is often the root cause of poor room bass control.
As I've stated ad nauseam previously, deploying a 4 sub distributed bass array system is the only guaranteed method I've yet discovered that provides sota bass response in virtually any room.
I also understand why you may not want to devote the funds and space required in your rather modest office system. If this is the case, the best remedies I can think of for your bass peak and nulls in order of cost and room space are:
1. Start from scratch and re-perform the procedure for locating your sub in a single sub system. I know nothing about your actual office room, but I'm thinking there's likely a better performing specific spot for your sub than its current position. As you walk around your room searching for this spot. you may want to also check spots that are not solely along your walls. Moving your sub even a few feet away from the wall could improve bass response at your listening position.
2. If this is unsuccessful, my best advice is to consider using a second sub. The use of 2 subs, if properly positioned, is the first remedy that will begin to reduce or eliminate some room bass standing waves that are the root cause of your room's bass issues.
3. Addiing 2 subs will further this attack on bass standing waves and improve bass response.
4. Add 3 subs and you'll attain sota bass performance not only at your listening seat but throughout your entire room. The additional subs suggested in any of these remedies are not required to be of the same type, or even the same size or quality, as your existing sub. The critical factor is that having 4 points launching bass sound waves into any room is scientifically verified to reduce or eliminate the vast majority of bass standing waves and will likely provide the best bass response you've lever heard.
"
2. One Sub- With a single sub, unfortunately, the bass will be compromised because the bass will only be optimized at a single point in your room (your listening seat sweet spot) and the bass will not sound as good at other spots in your room. To optimally position a single sub, place the connected sub at your listening position/seat and play some content that contains several minutes of good and repetitive bass. Then, starting at the front-right-corner of your room, slowly walk counter-clockwise along the walls of your room until you find the exact spot where the bass sounds best to you. Lastly, locate the sub to this exact spot and then replay the bass content to verify the bass still sounds good to you when your seated at your listening position/seat. mcreyn, Isuggest you may want to try this in your single sub office system."
Already did this. The sub started on the front wall, then the corner, and ultimately at the midpoint on the rear wall. Response from it is great there, and decay times are good. Since I am sitting at a desk, my listing position is always within a few inches making tuning easier as I only have to cope with one position.
The big issue I have is not sub related. I have a huge mode at 140 hz, followed by a suckout at 110 hz (and smaller ones at 65hz and 55hz). I am waiting to hear back from GIK acoustics, but will be trying some 244 bass traps to see if I can moderate this. Corner traps are not an option, but the 244 absorbs 16 sabins at these frequencies so should work well.
mcreyn’s response to s200cr’s statement about just buying speakers that don’t need subs:
" Why? The best speaker placement for imaging and bass are generally mutually exclusive!!!!! Are you willing to place 4 main speakers around your room at the optimal positions to minimize standing waves (ala a swarm setup)? Show me a full range speaker system that can go flat below 20hz that costs less than $10,000 a pair and is optimized for placement in the bass where the imaging is the best. The system in my office (a used set of Totem Mites and a Rythmik L12 for a total cost of $900) does that comfortably (when I say comfortably, it starts to roll off at 23 hz is and 1 db down at 20hz)."
Great response, mcreyn, I was about to post and make many of the same points before I read your response. I just want to add a few thoughts to further emphasize your thoughts: My opinion and suggestion is to approach the setup of your home audio system as 2 systems: a bass system and a midrange/treble and sound stage illusion system. The first step is to get the bass sounding right. As I’ve stated previously, I believe buying and properly setting up an Audio Kinesis Swarm or Debra system is the simplest and most reliable method of achieving this if you have the funds ($2,500-3,000) and room space. But, for those on a stricter budget, here are my suggestions for optimizing bass in your room based on number of subs you’re able to afford:
1. No Subs/just the bass drivers in your main speakers- As mcreyn has accurately stated, the best speaker location for both imaging and bass response are highly unlikely, if ever, going to be optimized at the same room position. Full range speakers that contain bass, mid-range and treble drivers all in a single cabinet are, therefore, highly handicapped in their ability to provide good bass response and good imaging right from the get go. Having a physically separate bass system that seamlessly integrates powerful and well defined bass response with physically separate main speakers system providing high quality mid-range/treble sound reproduction with a realistic sound staging illusion, even if there’s some bass frequency redundancy between the 2 systems, is an alternative solution that is highly superior in my opinion based on experience.
2. One Sub- With a single sub, unfortunately, the bass will be compromised because the bass will only be optimized at a single point in your room (your listening seat sweet spot) and the bass will not sound as good at other spots in your room. To optimally position a single sub, place the connected sub at your listening position/seat and play some content that contains several minutes of good and repetitive bass. Then, starting at the front-right-corner of your room, slowly walk counter-clockwise along the walls of your room until you find the exact spot where the bass sounds best to you. Lastly, locate the sub to this exact spot and then replay the bass content to verify the bass still sounds good to you when your seated at your listening position/seat. mcreyn, Isuggest you may want to try this in your single sub office system.
3. Two Subs- 2 subs will give better results than a single sub because, if properly positioned, any bass standing waves at your listening position may be reduced or eliminated and each sub is reproducing only a portion of the total content bass. This increases the capacity of bass volume, impact and dynamics/headroom. To optimally setup 2 subs, the one sub setup above is used for sub#1 and then sub#2 is placed at the listening position/seat and the same procedure is used to locate the exact optimum room position, continuing the search from sub#1 along the room walls counter-clockwise.
4. Three Subs- 3 subs will as expected give better results than 2 subs by further increasing the capacity of bass volume, impact and dynamics/headroom. But 3 subs, if properly positioned, will also begin to significantly reduce or eliminate bass standing waves throughout the entire room, beyond just those at the listening position/seat. Walking around the room, specific spots where bass response is perceived as less than optimal will be noticeably fewer with 3 subs when compared to 1 or 2 subs. To optimally set up 3 subs, just follow the procedure for 2 subs above and then sub#3 is placed at the listening position/seat and the same procedure is used to locate the exact optimum room position, continuing the search from sub#2 along the room walls counter-clockwise.
5. Four Subs- 4 subs are required for achieving sota bass response in any room. Acoustical experts have statistically identified that 4 subs in a room as the threshold at which the vast majority of bass standing waves in most rooms are reduced or eliminated, with any additional subs only providing moderate and smaller marginal benefits. In summary, the more subs you deploy in your room, the fewer bass standing waves will exist in your room and, as a direct result, the better your in-room bass response will sound. I don’t consider myself a bass expert. I just read all the material I could find on-line and rely on my years of experience of striving for very good bass response in my systems; beginning with no sub and progressing to 1, then 2 and 3. All of my systems sounded very good to me but the bass always seemed compromised to varying degrees. Then I read scientific White Papers written by a a couple of acoustical scientists, Dr.Earl Geddes and Dr. Floyd O’toole, about their results experimenting with distributed bass array (DBA) systems in commercial and home environments. It all made good sense to me but I was resistant at first due mainly to the cost and concerns about accommodating 4 subs in my 16 x 23 foot room. But, after discussing at length the Audio Kenisis Debra 4-sub dba system with James Romeyn. owner of James Romeyn Music and Audio in Utah, I decided to to buy the complete Debra system for about $3K with a free 30-day in home trial period. It took about 4-5 hrs for a friend and I to set it up carefully following the progressive sub positioning method and routing all 4 custom speaker wires in the crawl space below my living room. Still relying on the concept of building my system as 2 systems, a bass system and a mid-range/ treble and sound stage illusion system, I considered the reproduction of bass frequencies from about 20 to 40 Hz to be solidly in place and providing the foundation for placing the remaining mid-range/treble and sound stage illusion system atop it. I use a pair of older Magnepan 2.7QR 6 x 2 foot panels, driven by a pair of D-Sonic M600M (1,200 watts @ 4 ohms) run full-range for this purpose. Whereas the Debra system provides sota bass response virtually throughout the entire room, the main speakers require careful placement to provide an accurate and musical portrayal of the remainder of the audio spectrum and provide an optimum .sound stage illusion at the specific listening position/seat sweet spot. A benefit of treating your system as 2 systems is that, once your subs have been positioned, your main speakers can be located completely independently for optimum mid-range/treble response as well as for creating an optimum sound stage illusion. After considerable trial and error experimenting, I was able to locate each panel so that all performance parameters were maximized; this resulted in my panels being locted about 4 ft. away from my front 16 ft. wall, spread about 7 ft. apart on center and slightly toed-in angling toward and straddling my listening chair about 14 ft. away centered n my rear 16 ft. wall. We initially auditioned it on ht by playing a Bluray copy of the movie Fury, a WWII tank film with Brad Pitt. Our first indication of how exceptionally well this system reproduces bass was during the opening trailers of a soon to be released movie on Bluray, Whiplash, that contained a solo drum soundtrack, recorded direct to digital and played back at 24 bit/96 Khz hi-resolution .digital through my Oppo 105 Bluray player., that was a driving beat that built to a final crescendo that had my friend and I staring at each other in disbelief with how spectacularly real and ’right there in the front center of the room’ the drum kit was perceived to be by both of us. The WWII tank and heavy machine gun battle scenes in the movie, Fury, were also portrayed, with the assistance of my 5 other full range speakers in Dolby Digital 5.1 (5.4?)Surround Sound format, in an extremely realistic manner. After the movie, we also auditioned a wide variety of music stored as 16 bit/ 44 Khz files of ripped CDs and some hi-res 24 bit/96 Khz WAV music files,stored on my NAS hard drive. I find the entire music listening experience as being very immersive, with the width and depth of the sound stage illusion varying slightly in size, stability and overall realism depending on recording. I’ve noticed those recorded direct to hi-res digital are generally significantly superior in all 3 of these qualities. To be clear, I’m not stating you cannot attain very good full range sound performance in your system using no or 1 to 3 subs. What I am trying to convey is that the science is correct, utilizing 4 subs seems to pass a threshold that, due to the vast majority of bass standing waves either being reduced or eliminated, allows for bass response that is both powerful and well defined that far exceeds the bass performance that I was ever able to achieve with fewer than 4 subs in my room.
After setting the low-pass filter, I use pink noise to set the levels of all my speakers, including the subs, to 75 dB SPL, then listen to a variety of recordings. My goal is to not be aware of the subs. A Velodyne SMS-1 bass manager sets crossover, slope, and acoustic room correction for the subs.
As an amendment to my OP, I did buy a pair of KEF Reference 1s. Hope I don't regret it, given the LS50s supplemented by the HGS-10s sound so good even for large orchestrations.
Remember that good subs don't simply add bass reinforcement, but contribute to the overall listening experience by adding life to the mix. Live concert halls and even studio mixed recordings have lower frequencies adding an ambient and more lifelike "feel" to pretty much everything, and although your speakers might not "need" this, I know I need it for things to sound like real music. My current Heresy IIIs are great at producing realistic sounding bass within their range, but really drop off at around 58hz or so...my subs take up the rest and the resulting overall low frequency coherency and "room charging" gets the mojo right.
I'm using a single small REL t5si sub with my Harbeth P3esr speakers. I moved it around the floor until I got a good sound. Running the speakers full range and I keep the crossover on the sub set fairly low. The sub volume is also very low. It's a subtle difference, but the arrangement creates a bit more body in the bass. The speakers are actually fine without the sub.
I use a different system for Home Theater, with a noisier subwoofer.
There are no speakers currently manufactured that " need " subs. If a person wants to add a little more foundation to the music they may choose to add a sub or two or one might suppose a swarm of subs.
When I first purchased my Wilson Max II’s and was talking about adding a new sub, someone on this forum laughed asking why I would even want a sub, using the Wilsons. I purchased one JL Fathom 113 and it was great. I then added a second one, placed in the opposite corner diagonally facing each other and it really smoothed out the response. I use a DBX subharmonic sythesizer, along with a Sony TA-E2000ESD, as a separate remote volume control. The Sony has a parametric eq that I filter down the 50-60 hz frequencies and turn my crossover point on the subs, as low as it will go. I come out of my line stage’s tape monitor output, so I can isolate the bass. Because the Sony has a motorized dial volume, I can pretty much tell, where to set it on the clock dial. When I turn my main speakers off, just to hear the bass level, most of the time the bass is at a fairly low level and is not overpowering. I get an almost seamless contribution from my subs. I can also turn my subs off, to hear what it sounds like, without the subs. The difference is almost always very subtle, but can hear a definite improvement with the subs. I built some hefty stands, 18” tall with metal castors, so I can easily roll them around the room, to establish the best position. I think the trick, is to set your sub volume, as to not make them shake the room. They’re like a quartet, each contributing, but none overpowering the other. They definitely have their place in my system.
I have a “full” range speakers supported by 2 JL212 subs. The subs Integrated with the main speakers so well that now I cannot listen to the system without the subs. The quality of the subs is very critical.
"It’s nice to use subwoofers for theatre systems. The best option is to buy speakers for your audio system that do NOT need subs."
Why? The best speaker placement for imaging and bass are generally mutually exclusive!!!!! Are you willing to place 4 main speakers around your room at the optimal positions to minimize standing waves (ala a swarm setup)? Show me a full range speaker system that can go flat below 20hz that costs less than $10,000 a pair and is optimized for placement in the bass where the imaging is the best. The system in my office (a used set of Totem Mites and a Rythmik L12 for a total cost of $900) does that comfortably (when I say comfortably, it starts to roll off at 23 hz is and 1 db down at 20hz).
Even with "full" range speakers, good subwoofers with proper setup make a great difference. The problem is most people want to plop them down, spend no time setting them up, and then turn them up too loud resulting in a bloated, slow, plodding sound.
It takes time to get a sub properly setup and integrated. In my office, it took over 100 sweeps with REW with the sub in 3 different places to get a really good integration where it disappears. It can take a lot of playing with phasing, crossover and placement to get it right, but once you do, you can enjoy truly full range sound that lets you hear things you never knew existed.
Your post was a well written, reasonable and articulate defense of the monster sub setups of some of the AVS forum members.
I like to think of myself as reasonable, open minded and resistant to stereotyping . Your post made me realize that I've seen and read about many of these systems on AVS and other sites in the past but never listened to one in action.
As you constructively pointed out, I believe I was stereotyping these monster sub setups as 'bass by brute force' and dismissing them as not capable of providing both high quality bass power and, simultaneously, high quality bass definition. You've heard some of these monster setups and claim these are built by knowledgeable bass enthusiasts with the skills to attain both impressive bass power and bass definition.
So, I think it's best if I just take your word for the capabilities of these monster setups, thank you for pointing out my stereotyping, try to refrain from doing so in the future and try to get a personal audition of one of these monster bass setups soon. Thanks, Tim
(I am familiar with the ’crazy home theater guys’ typically loitering at AVSforums and other a/v sites with their brute force approach to reproducing bass in a home environment. However, I have too much respect for the supporting mechanisms and other surfaces in my home to adopt this ’Bringing Down the House’ approach. I can’t recall ever desiring more bass listening to any source or content. Besides, the supplied amp has controls for setting the overall level - I can recall tweaking that and the crossover frequency (currently the level is set at about half and cthe rossover at about 40 Hz)) Loud and overpowering is not my conception of ideal bass. My version of ideal bass for my combo ht and music system is more nuanced, having the dual qualities of power and definition required for state of the art bass response reproduction of both.
Some of the guys over at the AVS forum have true monster sub setups that would indeed be able to bring down the house/apartment building if called upon to "stretch their legs," and that could fill even large auditorium cinemas with bass impact and depth that would satisfy and impress most. I guess having sub setups like that is not about letting them sit idly at <100dB’s, but to feel them in action - loudly at that, and with a physical sensation that would dwarf any typical hifi sub-system. It would be safe to say many of them like their subs run HOT.
Having said that "loud and overpowering" is not all there is to it. I would agree with the mention that there are extremely experienced individuals over there (at the AVS forum) who have close to exhaustive knowledge of sub implementation, and to whom "overkill" is only an approximation to sufficient headroom; headroom being one of the key words and signifier for the measure of bass quality. It’s about achieving 20dB’s of headroom at the minimum, so to have distortion levels in the lower single digits even at the loudest levels you’d ever desire down to below 20Hz. You would think it’s only about blowing your hair/head off with über-SPL’s, but from the setups in this caliber I’ve heard there’s nuance and definition in abundance, and not least a relaxed, enveloping and totally effortless presentation that’s quite addictive. I definitely subscribe to the duality of "power and definition," and this way you’ll potentially get both in measures hard to describe.
Generally I find audiophiles to be almost intimidated by or ridiculing air displacement prowess and high sensitivity and SPL capabilities. It’s too easy and reductive just labeling it as an in-every-case brute-ness, and at the same time robbing it of the "sophistication" audiophiles are so eager to pursue. Again, there’s more to than that..
" The Swarm and Debra subs are an excellent example of using science and good acoustic theory to maximize the benefit for the minimum dollar. They have addressed the biggest issue, the room. It can be done with any 4 subs. You should see what some of the crazy home theater guys do, as the Swarm would never have enough deep bass for them (they want 120db @10 hz), things like quad JTR Captivators. Not to plug another forum, but AVSforums in the subwoofer section has some really great information on setup, tuning, and objective reviewing. The home theater guys have done more for good bass than just about anyone."
mcreyn,
Wowie Wow Wow McWoofer.....Testify! You stated: " The Swarm and Debra subs are an excellent example of using science and good acoustic theory to maximize the benefit for the minimum dollar. They have addressed the biggest issue, the room. It can be done with any 4 subs." What happened? Did you actually get a personal audition of a distributed bass array (DBA)? In any case, your quote above is an excellent summary of what the Swarm and Debra represent. And, yes, the DBA concept’s ability to transform a room’s bass response using almost any 4 subs is like magic but true, science really is like magic but real.
"You should see what some of the crazy home theater guys do, as the Swarm would never have enough deep bass for them (they want 120db @10 hz), things like quad JTR Captivators. "
I am familiar with the ’crazy home theater guys’ typically loitering at AVSforums and other a/v sites with their brute force approach to reproducing bass in a home environment. However, I have too much respect for the supporting mechanisms and other surfaces in my home to adopt this ’Bringing Down the House’ approach. I can't recall ever desiring more bass listening to any source or content. Besides, the supplied amp has controls for setting the overall level - I can recall tweaking that and the crossover frequency (currently the level is set at about half and cthe rossover at about 40 Hz) Loud and overpowering is not my conception of ideal bass. My version of ideal bass for my combo ht and music system is more nuanced, having the dual qualities of power and definition required for state of the art bass response reproduction of both.
sleepwalker6519 posts08-21-2018 8:22pmSubwoofers are a bad solution for inadequate speakers. They are mutually exclusive with high fidelity because they can never perfectly integrate. Some people and rappers don’t care about sound quality. Low-Fi is fine for them. For the rest of us, subwoofers only belong in the home theatre.
You know I always thought that Wilson, Magico, and Vandersteen were Low-Fi with their subwoofers blasting along with their statement products at audio shows.
They are mutually exclusive with high fidelity because they can never perfectly integrate.
<< cough >> bs << cough >>
Just because you have never known how doesn’t mean it is not possible. However, it takes high degrees of skill and experience. It is quite closely related to speaker crossover design. This is why I often believe that avoiding the sub is a better option for many. That’s not the same thing as saying it cannot be done. It is glorious when done right, but few live to hear it.
Subwoofers are a bad solution for inadequate speakers. They are mutually exclusive with high fidelity because they can never perfectly integrate. Some people and rappers don’t care about sound quality. Low-Fi is fine for them. For the rest of us, subwoofers only belong in the home theatre.
"More important, IMO, is to have a SEALED sub for music."
Can anyone provide a supportable reason for this, or is this just an ad nauseum repeating of inaccurate information?
It's a myth, with a completely different issue coming on. Sealed have higher f3, and fewer problems with the room. If you know what you are doing you can make a ported sub work fantastically. If you don't, get a sealed 10" sub and leave it alone. :)
The Swarm and Debra subs are 'vented enclosure for correct roll-off to compensate for room gain (ports can be plugged with supplied plugs, if desired)'. I've tried my Debra subs both ways and preferred them unplugged.
The Swarm and Debra subs are an excellent example of using science and good acoustic theory to maximize the benefit for the minimum dollar. They have addressed the biggest issue, the room. It can be done with any 4 subs. You should see what some of the crazy home theater guys do, as the Swarm would never have enough deep bass for them (they want 120db @10 hz), things like quad JTR Captivators. Not to plug another forum, but AVSforums in the subwoofer section has some really great information on setup, tuning, and objective reviewing. The home theater guys have done more for good bass than just about anyone.
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