I’ve briefly taken a look at some online reviews for budget Tekton speakers from ASR and Youtube. Both are based on Klippel quasi-anechoic measurements to achieve "in-room" simulations.
As an amateur speaker designer, and lover of graphs and data I have some thoughts. I mostly hope this helps the entire A’gon community get a little more perspective into how a speaker builder would think about the data.
Of course, I’ve only skimmed the data I’ve seen, I’m no expert, and have no eyes or ears on actual Tekton speakers. Please take this as purely an academic exercise based on limited and incomplete knowledge.
The standard practice for analyzing speakers is called "quasi-anechoic." That is, we pretend to do so in a room free of reflections or boundaries. You do this with very close measurements (within 1/2") of the components, blended together. There are a couple of ways this can be incomplete though.
a - Midwoofers measure much worse this way than in a truly anechoic room. The 7" Scanspeak Revelators are good examples of this. The close mic response is deceptively bad but the 1m in-room measurements smooth out a lot of problems. If you took the close-mic measurements (as seen in the spec sheet) as correct you’d make the wrong crossover.
b - Baffle step - As popularized and researched by the late, great Jeff Bagby, the effects of the baffle on the output need to be included in any whole speaker/room simulation, which of course also means the speaker should have this built in when it is not a near-wall speaker. I don’t know enough about the Klippel simulation, but if this is not included you’ll get a bass-lite expereinced compared to real life. The effects of baffle compensation is to have more bass, but an overall lower sensitivity rating.
For both of those reasons, an actual in-room measurement is critical to assessing actual speaker behavior. We may not all have the same room, but this is a great way to see the actual mid-woofer response as well as the effects of any baffle step compensation.
Looking at the quasi anechoic measurements done by ASR and Erin it _seems_ that these speakers are not compensated, which may be OK if close-wall placement is expected.
In either event, you really want to see the actual in-room response, not just the simulated response before passing judgement. If I had to critique based strictly on the measurements and simulations, I’d 100% wonder if a better design wouldn’t be to trade sensitivity for more bass, and the in-room response would tell me that.
3. Crossover point and dispersion
One of the most important choices a speaker designer has is picking the -3 or -6 dB point for the high and low pass filters. A lot of things have to be balanced and traded off, including cost of crossover parts.
Both of the reviews, above, seem to imply a crossover point that is too high for a smooth transition from the woofer to the tweeters. No speaker can avoid rolling off the treble as you go off-axis, but the best at this do so very evenly. This gives the best off-axis performance and offers up great imaging and wide sweet spots. You’d think this was a budget speaker problem, but it is not. Look at reviews for B&W’s D series speakers, and many Focal models as examples of expensive, well received speakers that don’t excel at this.
Speakers which DO typically excel here include Revel and Magico. This is by no means a story that you should buy Revel because B&W sucks, at all. Buy what you like. I’m just pointing out that this limited dispersion problem is not at all unique to Tekton. And in fact many other Tekton speakers don’t suffer this particular set of challenges.
In the case of the M-Lore, the tweeter has really amazingly good dynamic range. If I was the designer I’d definitely want to ask if I could lower the crossover 1 kHz, which would give up a little power handling but improve the off-axis response. One big reason not to is crossover costs. I may have to add more parts to flatten the tweeter response well enough to extend it's useful range. In other words, a higher crossover point may hide tweeter deficiencies. Again, Tekton is NOT alone if they did this calculus.
I’ve probably made a lot of omissions here, but I hope this helps readers think about speaker performance and costs in a more complete manner. The listening tests always matter more than the measurements, so finding reviewers with trustworthy ears is really more important than taste-makers who let the tools, which may not be properly used, judge the experience.
I discussed enough for 10 days here with Amir and his acoustics knowledge is around DSP not basic concepts distinguishing human hearing from Fourier Maps...He does not even to understand them because they are qualitative concepts based on real human hearing abilities in the field. These concepts are useless for his reductionist ideology.
it is a man who sincerely convey an ideology as pure truth.
This ideology begun to destruct human lives in a visible manner now : it is techno cultism conflated with and then replacing science...Most people dont have the basic knowledge necessary to see this...
Intelligence does not means wisdom ...
Knowledge cannot be reduced to science save by ideologue like Popper . I prefer real scientist from formation to political propagandists as Polanyi and Goethe were .
i will stop here but techno cultism is a plague and the introduction of A.I. will make this way worse...It is easy for engineers to put into people head that inside of this statistical blackbox of A.I. trained is an intelligence superior to man. Especially with the prodigious improvement of many basic fields. We will become the tools of A.I. it is already the case. A.I. will less align on us than us on it . Narrow materialist mind will call that the progress and the future. Now guess on who are aligned the big corporations hubris for power ? No not on science as Polanyi or Goethe, but on techno cultism as religion with A.I. as God all that to control free human spirit and bent it to the will of the few.
So ASR is definitely influencing this hobby in the Internet era, and as with who lives in the biggest houses and drives the newest cars in my city, it’s helping tip the balance of power and influence in this hobby for the interested public and new generations of audiophiles from artists, musicians, designers and pretty much anyone with good listening skills to… engineers and computer algorithms. This makes me sad. If you were to spend anytime on ASR, you would gather that ears need not apply, their days and role in the hifi buying decision process are… over. No, seriously, if it can’t be measured by this or that analyzer, it can’t have value. Period. Now Amir may not say or think that, but the bulk of the discussion on his site adheres pretty closely to this line.
Amir has gently poked fun at one of my posts on ASR regarding some character of sound of Schiit Mani 2 phono preamp, probably something about soundstage… while others have been extraordinarily sarcastic and blatantly dismissive of any subjective comment I might make comparing the sound attributes of say, one DAC compared to another when they both measure “perfectly”.............
In summary, I do think measurements are critically important and a great place to start your audio reproduction journey. To that end, sites like ASR provide a valuable service. I do also think there are elements of this hobby and equipment design that are both not fully quantified or measurable, yet, and where art and subjective listening add real value. My concern is that absolutist worship of measurement over listening will lead many to miss out on some of the more pleasurable elements of fun, enjoyment, and discovery this hobby has to offer. I am definitely for less arguing and more listening.
"Just look at his image on the ASR site. A Geisha with a sneer. His intent is pretty clear with that alone."
That is no geisha. She is a gorgeous bride getting married at a Shinto shrine in Ueno park in Tokyo:
Different couples get married every half hour there. They put them through stock poses which is boring. I waited for the break between pictures to capture this lovely picture of hers.
There was no intention behind picking this picture for my Avatar other than this being one of the prized images in my photography portfolio. It shows beauty, culture and tradition. There is zero negativity in it much less what you are reading into it.
My intent on ASR is to bring reliable facts and data into the conversation about audio fidelity. Many love that as evidenced by massive growth of ASR in such a short period of time. Naturally, if your views are based on anecdotes, and stuff you have read online, and you are library of audio research and engineering is empty, you are going to see them opposed. You are welcome to stick to your opinion but don't go making stuff up like you did above. You get your hat handed to you that way. 😁
Many of us aren’t arguing the measurements. I’m arguing that Amir and ASR have a toxic culture that permeates other audio forums with condescending tones that have been normalized and promoted at ASR.
There is absolutely nothing toxic about ASR culture. We thrive on information and knowledge about audio products, engineering and research. If you walk in dismissive of all that, then you will get strong pushback. It is no different than going to your doctor, claiming to know more than him because you know your body and he doesn't. Most doctors would throw you out of their office if you said that. The toxicity then, is yours, not ours or your doctors.
Many days we celebrate on ASR for discovering something new. Latest example is a DIY speaker that blew us away in its performance despite its very low cost:
The speaker not only measured great, it sounded great in my listening tests. There is nothing but happiness as a result of this. Someone like you coming in to pick a fight is not what we are about. But if you engage us that way, as I mentioned in the above post, we will hand your hat to you. Not because we shout louder but because we have the research and data on our side. If that is cause for unhappiness, then don't visit ASR.
Amir has an opinion like anyone else. He wraps that opinion in some pretty paper that he calls science. His weak minded followers seem to overlook his lack of credentials and his inaccurate metrology methods. Correct me if I am wrong, but Amir has never designed and built an audio component. He has not demonstrated the ability to listen and review audio components nor has he been published outside of his own u-tube channel. The most remarkable thing about Amir is that he has accomplished so much notoriety with so little.
I own a few speakers ASR has reviewed and agree with both the measurements and listening impression.
this JBL 590 review is pretty spot on. Great for the money but so so in absolute terms. I have A/B my own 590s agents my own 4367 and 228be all in the same room. All have spins and some kind of review on ASR. I agree with pretty much everything stated on them.
“It is more difficult for me to assess speakers in our living room but I thought the midrange and highs were unimpressive. Not bad. Or anything I could put my finger on. I just didn't enjoy all of my tracks as I do with very performant speakers. Again, keep all the caveats in mind as you read my subjective impressions.“
@tonywingaAmir, I believe was involved audio codecs in MS Windows, so he has some expertise in sound, etc. Amir could correct me, if I am wrong.
What audio device HAVE YOU designed? Since you are throwing shade, it is just fair.
Amir is using a Klippel device, which most audio companies are using for measurements now, since anaechoic chambers are so expensive to build and maintain.
Amir has an opinion like anyone else. He wraps that opinion in some pretty paper that he calls science. His weak minded followers seem to overlook his lack of credentials and his inaccurate metrology methods. Correct me if I am wrong, but Amir has never designed and built an audio component. He has not demonstrated the ability to listen and review audio components nor has he been published outside of his own u-tube channel. The most remarkable thing about Amir is that he has accomplished so much notoriety with so little.
Oh no. A Golden Ear has spoken. Whatever will Amir do...? ;-)
"Message to golden eared audiophiles posting at ASR for the first time" with 361 likes
Here is the content of that thread's post. Observe the tone of these goons.
Hello friend. Hey, listen...we know how it is. Believe me, most of us have been there too. You've spent years toiling in the muck of audiophilia. You read ALL the reviews. You watched ALL the youtube videos. You visited ALL the other forums where everything always makes a difference. You bought the cables and the little bridge thingies for them to sit upon and the benefits were magical. You bought the $1000 IEMs that only truly sang after 250 hours of burn-in. Not 200 hours...or 225 hours, but 250 hours! It must be that for the magic to appear! You converted your entire music library to super high res and enjoyed the blissful new details that never were revealed by the awful, cludgy mess that was 16/44 cd. Never have your ears been assaulted by the likes of bluetooth audio or lossy mp3! You searched endlessly for the perfect dac...the dac that truly brought the magic! You bought one after another, each more expensive than the last, searching for the one, true dac that sounded better than all the rest...
And then you arrived here...and posted about your dac discovery, and were told that a dac shouldn't sound like anything at all! Suddenly your audio reality came crashing down around you. How can this be? Why shouldn't a dac sound great?? Why would expensive dacs even exist if they all sound the same??? Wounded, you lash out angrily! It's idiocy! It's retarded! These people have dead ears! It hurts. We understand. It's been a long time and you've spent a lot of money, all for naught. But once the pain diminishes and you've had time to deal with your emotions just give it some thought. Do some reading here and once your ban is lifted, maybe ask a few questions. Instead of locking your eyes shut against the bright light of objectivity...just open them up a little. Just a squint! Let a bit of that light in and bask in a warm, tubey glow that actually means something! Perhaps, as with many of us, a weight will begin to lift off your shoulders. Perhaps there is freedom in this new reality! You might discover that there is a different way...a way that wields real magic. A way that actually answers questions and reveals truth while at the same time leaving your wallet fat and happy! Welcome my friend. Welcome to ASR where the truth shall set you free!
Give these goons a 128 kbps mp3 file, a 10 dollar Bluetooth speaker (set in on a cardboard box from Walmart) and a 2 dollar DAC. They will measure it and attain audio nirvana.
Oh no. A Golden Ear has spoken. Whatever will Amir do...? ;-)
Insulting people will not help...Using the dismissing epiteth
"golden ear" about audiophiles and music lovers here will not help...
We assist everywhere in the world to the increasing dismissing attitude toward human ability in favor of the techno-cult religion rising...
ASR reviews are useful as are useful "golden ears" opinions because we are all human...
It is stupid to relinquish any tool measuring information...
But it is no less stupid to use only one type of measures about the gear without taking into account our own trained hearing in a complex acoustic environment ... ( i created my own room then i am trained enough to hear what i need for designing my room/system)
Take the despising expression "golden ear" where it belong where no one could look for it ...
Thanks for Amir reviews.... But i will let his ideology where it belong...
Acoustics and psychoacoustics rules audio not ideology of the "subjective" or alleged "objective" kind ...
I myself are interested in hearing theories as basis for audio... Not on any tool in particular... Guess why ? 😊
@botrytisWhy are you defending him? Wake up and smell the coffee. Learn to think for yourself. There are other YouTube sites that do proper measurements of audio gear. Visit some of them and see the difference.
Amir has an opinion like anyone else. He wraps that opinion in some pretty paper that he calls science. His weak minded followers seem to overlook his lack of credentials and his inaccurate metrology methods.
Weak minded? Is that the level of respect you have for your fellow audiophiles? They better think like you or they are not worthy?
As to my background, it is in my signature on ASR:
Pretty sure that makes me qualified to test audio gear. Go ahead and link to the background of any subjective reviewer who you think a) has designed audio gear and b) is more qualified than me.
There is absolutely nothing toxic about ASR culture. We thrive on information and knowledge about audio products, engineering and research. If you walk in dismissive of all that, then you will get strong pushback. It is no different than going to your doctor, claiming to know more than him because you know your body and he doesn’t. Most doctors would throw you out of their office if you said that. The toxicity then, is yours, not ours or your doctors.
Why are you here trying to play innocent, pretending to walk the high road n all? Who do you think you’re trying to fool? Does that "inner voice" of yours not let you sleep if you don’t convert the infidels on this forum? Or perhaps, Revel sales are slowing down Madrona? Looking for more donations/donors perhaps?
Go back to your own house and find some peace. On your way out, tell everybody here why you were banned from every audio forum out there. Tell them something about that "inner voice" of yours (you know the one... that goes way back down memory lane). I could characterize it with one 9 letter word, but, i’m sure you’ll give it away soon enough by yourself.
It’s a free country so anybody who thinks they can do some thing better than someone else is free to do their thing. Otherwise negativity is just counterproductive words that anyone can toss about.
I’ve found ASR to be one of the more useful resources out there to help find good value products. I want more of that not less.
We all have egos. Keeping that under control is pretty much always a good thing.
I've spent some time on the ASR site & didn't care for it much. Not that I'm against measuring audio equipment, it was the whole feeling of the forum... lots of seemingly aggressive people shouting their opinion, mocking others who disagree. Mind you, I get the same feelings from those that are diehard cable/tweak believers, who belittle those that disagree with them. I keep reading them write the words "believe your own ears" while they completely ignore the concept that if you're watching something, or you're told something, or you're made aware of something while you're listening/comparing then you're not believing your ears... you're permitting your brain to override your ears & tell you that you're hearing something that you're not. Listen to 2 sources of music after being told that A<B and you'll hear a superior B. Listen to 2 sources blindly and suddenly all differences statistically disappear.
So I find the two absolutes, listening & measuring, are both outliers that I will read but often categorize as interesting but not necessarily relevant to me.
@dwcdaThen it is an audiophile forum. It seems that is all audiophiles do, like their life's depend on being right. I get the exact same feeling from this forum, and that is the point. One needs to ignore the yellers and passive-aggressive people in this hobby. There are so many of them. There are absolutists in both sides, and they will NEVER agree. The sad thing is, if they put down the anger, they might learn something.
I think @amir_asr stated his idea well, he is giving measurements - what people on his forum do with it, is another thing. It is sad we have to pick through all the junk to find the information we need. But that is what I do.
Arguing is useless When people are bent on hate or had no recognized common ground...
-----It appear stupid to my eyes because audio experience is a perception personal subjective experience which must be trained and educated not by gear purchase but by acoustics experiments and concepts...
-----It appear stupid to me because audio experience result also from a set of acoustical measurable of parameters between the system /room/ears. This acoustics and psychoacouistics set of measures are so impactful that the electrical specs of the gear even the speakers specs matter less for the qualitative end result ...
Then Amir techno-cultist ideology and sarcasms about "golden ears" and the audiogoners hate toward him personnaly is preposterous, as useless, as in politics the hate between Biden or Trump, or left/right, big eggs /small eggs it neglect the hidden cause and real control of the parasitic minds watchwords put on the social fabric and reflecting the techno-cultist control of Finances, medecine,politics, even the lost of science and mind by big corporation criminality.
All is very clear since Bernard Mandeville work on social fabric controls and René Girard analysis of violence.
«Brain grow or shrink,they never stay put»--Groucho Marx neurologist🤓
@mahgisterAgree partially. I feel there are cultists on both sides and there is trench between them and that is usually where I find myself.
They are both right and wrong at the same time. If they would listen to each other instead of talking over each other, they would find the common ground of enjoying music and the hobby
Ever been to AudioKarma - where the only good audio is 'Vintage' and everything else is not? One can find the same attitudes and aggressive tendencies there.
I think we need to find common ground and move on from there. I understand English is a 2nd language for you. I thank you for expressing yourself as well as you do. Oft times, we write small chunks of ideas that can seem to be more aggressive than they actually are.
I am glad i am not alone in the cracks where truth wait between the bricks of the jailing house...
You are lucky that i never spoke english in my life... I only had read english in science books and philosophy. I know very few concrete words and no slang...
In french i would have been much more clear and much more long and proficient with hues of meanings and humor...😊
@mahgisterI have foibles just like anyone else, but as the old saying goes, "I have no dog in this fight'. I just feel people should listen and discuss rationally. I have issues getting out of hand, just like anyone else. It is easy, when you just have a keyboard and screen in front of you. Hard when it is face to face.
@amir_asr is not his forum, he just started it. People can get out of hand, what does he do ban them all? There would be no audiophiles left to discuss things. Cooler heads need to prevail. After all, isn't hobby about enjoyment of art?
One of my dearest friends is German, who is married to a wonderful French woman, and they live in France - he is tri-lingual also. I vacationed, last year, with him in Brittany. With him showing us all that makes that part of France so amazing. I would like to go back again.
Amir gets on and takes a somewhat radical position because it is not effective to be balanced. Get people to join a tribe and then watch the sparks fly when they get together.
What concerns me about Amir and his people is that they constantly make judgements regarding the purchasing decisions of others. Wasted money, gullibility, bias, blah, blah. I truly dont care how others spend their money and certainly dont have the hubris to believe that I could know any motivations.
I dont believe that anyone actually believes that all sonic attributes can be measured. I thought this was a dead issue.
Amir gets on and takes a somewhat radical position because it is not effective to be balanced.
There is nothing radical about following science and engineering knowledge and data to determine fidelity of audio gear. What is radical is throwing all of that out of the window and opining based on anecdotal and inaccurate personal listening tests.
In addition, when I measure something, the data speaks for itself. There is little of "me" involved in that.
I dont believe that anyone actually believes that all sonic attributes can be measured.
In all cases we can measure what comes out of your audio gear. What to do with that data depends on what is being tested. Take cables. When basic engineering says they don't make a difference, and we measure and show that nothing remotely has changed that is coming out of your amplifier, then that is that. It is impossible for there to be a sonic effect when the waveforms have not changed.
When people don't believe that, I have done null tests with music showing that the difference between cables is zero, audibly and objectively.
Change that to speakers and there is room for subjective evaluation. Same with headphones. This why I listen to all of these devices when I review them. The listening tests are formal though and not random audiophile listening.
Put another way, what we do is use multiple vectors to determine fidelity of gear. We use measurements as data point. Add to it psychoacoustics and engineering knowledge and if needed listening. We then combine these to have a high confidence opinion of a product.
In contrast, there is zero value in a reviewer listening to an amplifier and opining about imaging this, tight bass that. These are all made up notions and believing them is the closest you can come in audio to running with myths.
I truly dont care how others spend their money and certainly dont have the hubris to believe that I could know any motivations.
I don't either. This is why I have tested and recommended very expensive gear such as this Mola Mola DAC:
In addition, when I measure something, the data speaks for itself. There is little of "me" involved in that.
You do not seems conscious that the choice of tool, the choices of the set of measures, the choice of interpretation among all tools and possible measures, and possible interpretations is "subjective" choice...😊
Techno-cultist act as this confusing scientism with science...but i will no go further about techno-cultism here in audio forum... 😉
What you do Amir is not science, if you dont want to abuse the use of this concept it is verifying with some limited set of measures the specs of a piece of gear...But alas! you go further and claim that this is objective review then "pure science" this is untrue and misleading...Because a piece of gear and an audio system work differently in different mechanical,electrical,and acoustical and psychoacoustical contexts... Nothing of what you do is purely objective...
Audiophile gave their subjective impressions and they sell their own gear choice as solution or their upgrade as solutions...This is misleading too ...
These two groups, subjectivist and objectivists, sell gear and sell their products of choice, be it a set of tool or their beloved piece of gear as solutions (outside of any specific under control acoustic context as if this obsession with the gear design will resume audio experience by itself)
These 2 groups in fact presented pieces of gear as it could be the solution ,on the contrary they should have presented really any pieces of gear as component for an acoustic problem, a problem that cannot be solved anyway either by mere tools or by adding new components . Acoustics parameters controls matter. They supposed "ears/brain/system/room" existence as one so that experience and experimentation could be possible......
What i do with my pieces of gear linked as one system in my dedicated room, looking for electrical,mechanical and acoustical basic knowledge is creating my own system...
I mislead no one recommending at each and everyone to study acoustics then they will understand that "timbre" is not a colored illusion for example and they will understand how to use the electrical,mechanical and acoustics parameters to improve their experience. 😊
I dont sell gear as reviewers and i dont sell my site or my favorite tool...😁
I recommend creativity and acoustics experiments. 😎
@coralkong-- "Amir and ASR don't deserve this much attention."
And they wouldn't have gotten much at all if Eric at Tekton, instead of raising a stink and threatening litigation, had either ignored the review or simply said "we don't care about ASR's review. We don't design for numbers but rather sound that pleases our customers."
The odd thing is the original review wasn't all that bad for a reasonably efficient $750 speaker. This whole affair was self-inflicted by Tekton's ham-fisted response.
These 2 groups in fact presented pieces of gear as it could be the solution ,on the contrary they should have presented really any pieces of gear as component for an acoustic problem, a problem that cannot be solved anyway either by mere tools or by adding new components . Acoustics parameters controls matter. They supposed "ears/brain/system/room" existence as one so that experience and experimentation could be possible......
What i do with my pieces of gear linked as one system in my dedicated room, looking for electrical,mechanical and acoustical basic knowledge is creating my own system...
I mislead no one recommending at each and everyone to study acoustics then they will understand that "timbre" is not a colored illusion for example and they will understand how to use the electrical,mechanical and acoustics parameters to improve their experience.
What is this electromechanical and "acoustical" synthesis/optimization you have done that no one else has been able to do (seemingly)? Can you list the tangible/physical things you did (stuff that went further than the theorycrafting domain)?...I sincerely hope it doesn’t involve a healthy dose of listener self-hypnosis as well! 😬
Nobody needs to agree with everything Amir has said to be able to recognize how much valuable information Amir has produced, both in explaining some of the principles in audio gear, in having provided measurements for many hundreds of products, in taking a look at all sorts of claims by audio manufacturers and seeing if they stand up to more rigorous scrutiny and measurements etc.
It's just sad to be so salty, or incurious, to dismiss Amir and ASR so easily.
What is this electromechanical and "acoustical" synthesis/optimization you have done that no one else has been able to do (seemingly)? Can you list the tangible/physical things you did (stuff that went further than the theorycrafting domain)?...I sincerely hope it doesn’t involve a healthy dose of listener self-hypnosis as well! 😬
As i said in many posts here for 8 years, i experimented...
I described in details my own way to couple/decouple vibrations and decrease resonance in my speakers...It is not transferable for all speakers in all living room ( i had my dedicated room ) but this taught me a lot about mechanical controls of the speakers. The impact of negative resonance and vibrations is staggering and unsuspected by most speakers owners...
I will not describe anew here in a longer post what i described elsewhere...😊
Save if you want the details...
I did the same for electrical noise floor control in my own way.... It is well known that the house/room electrical noise floor level must be under control ...i created my own "tweaks " too (with shungite and copper and quartz) i dont buy anything that cost more than a peanuts butter pot...
i did the same with my two dedicated room... I know basic acoustics by experiments not by buying panels... 😁
In my first room i used a grid of 100 Helmholtz resonators for example mechanically tuned by ears in specific location to modify the pressure zones distribution... The location around listening position and around speaker A and speaker B was important...
i did many others things... But i cannot repeat all this in details here...Some will kill me for the post lenght...And some narrow mind will mock my use of other devices...
What i learned is that any relatively low cost system from 1,000 to 20,000 bucks with a minimal synergy quality, then well chosen, when they are embedded in these three working dimensions, mechanical,electrical and acoustical, they can gave their peak optimal working and reach their maximum working point.
This is enough to reach what i called : audiophile minimal acoustical satisfaction threshold...
Any costlier system if it is not well embedded in these three dimensions will be less interesting at worst or at best will be rivalled in S.Q. by a less refined design or less costly one...
Acoustics basic, mechanical and electrical basic knowledge rules audio , not price tags of the gear...
Creativity matter more than money...
And know that acoustics definitions and parameters controls had nothing to do with placebo and self hypnosis...
Timbre is defined by 5 factors at least , modify one in one direction or in the inverse direction and the timbre will change... No placebo here, it is acoustics principles at work... If you modify the reverberation time of your room by modifying the balance between absorption and reflection on some plane you will perceive a change in the experience... If you act in reverse you will perceive another change etc... there is no self hypnosis in experiments...
😊
Last thing : is it easy to do and learn ?
No i did it because i am retired... I did it full time for 2 years... Before that i was ignorant and frustrated as many here because i never love any gear system i owned anyway... I modified all my speakers and all my headphones with each time improvement ... But it was not enough ...And i was frustrated by my unability to pay for a very costlier one...I felt my audio system was anything but a stopgap...
When all parameters are balanced in a system/room you are no longer in a stopgap system. because the system work optimally... For sure you may upgrade it... But now it will be very costly to really upgrade and it will be less tempting too because when the S.Q. is optimal we listen music and forgot the sound...
All had changed when i learned by experiments how to work in these three dimensions : mechanical,electrical and acoustical...
For sure my speakers are low cost, i modified them with Helmholtz principle and now they are metamorphosed in a good piece of gear ( i hated them so much i never used them for music for 10 years) now they are my choice speakers... 😊
for my headphone i was lucky the laso one i bought was the best design and the more complex one ever make... It was my ninth headphone( i dislike all headphones even after my successfull modificatiopns) But this one is so refined one the only hybrid ever made with a grid of tune Helmholtz resonators inside a dual acoustic chamber, i was lucky to buy it... But it takes me 6 months of experiments to optimize it... it is the AKG K340 ... i even read the Dr. Gorike patent to unsderrstand this headphone ... i will not repeat all here ... 😊
The goal of my posts is motivate people to be creative if they had time and room for this... my goal is to inform them that it is not necessary at all to invest ton of money... it is more useful and more fun to study and experiment...
Some people with very costly system think i am deluded... but those who are deluded are those ignoring what is acoustics...
I am more interested by hearing theory than by reviews of gear ...
my best to you...
I apologize if i cannot repeat all i ever wrote here ... but the principle is the more important... Each one will use the same principles in his own way...
@botrytis-- I was responding to a post that was effectively complaining about how much attention ASR was getting. I simply pointed out that ASR’s original review wasn’t the cause of all that attention -- it was Tekton’s response.
The original review appeared in October 2023 and drew about 150 comments and went dormant in a few weeks. To my knowledge, no other online audio forum made any comments about the review at that time
ONLY when Eric got involved with his threats and allegations months later (Feb 2024) did the subject explode. The ASR thread is now well over 2,500 comments and additional threads have sprung up on other forums. Note this thread on Audiogon -- and other discussions on other forums -- didn’t start until a few weeks ago.
I don’t buy that "any publicity is good publicity" as a universal truth. I don’t think its worked much in Tekton’s favor for prospective customers. But, opinions are a dime a dozen.
@botrytis - My intention wasn't to highlight the subject, but the typical responses. The trajectory of that thread is commonplace across the entire site (as is on r/audiophile on Reddit) and almost encouraged within that community (not by Amir). If you read the thread, there's an actual electrical engineer with subject matter expertise getting berated because he's defending DDCs.
Feel free to jump on ASR and suggest DACs have specific sound signatures and prove me wrong. You'll get a flood of responses telling you all DACs sound the same. If it were really about scientific analysis, it'd be about exploration, debate and proving/disproving a hypothesis. Unfortunately, ASR is just toxic. Yes, there are toxic people on every forum (it's the internet after all), but it's on nearly every ASR thread. The site could really benefit from moderation and discouraging being the echo chamber of a handful of curmudgeons. That's exactly why I won't create an account nor plan to participate in any discussion there.
I think it is clear that Amir and the culture that he has built has created a lot of anger in the audiophile community. Largely because he and his cult of followers believe that their paradigm of judgement is superior and because they are extremely rude and dismissive of disagreement. And also because ASR has been successful in influencing a lot of less informed audiophiles. Mostly because it is easy to follow (Panther statues) and because he peddles a false sense of superiority as expressed in a language of derision.
To people who love the hobby, this kind of pisses on the fun. And it is all a big lie. Measurements are nothing new. Debate on the role of measurements is not new either. ASR offers something different. Because if ASR we are now Audiophiles or Golden Eared Audio Fools. We are either "good" objectivists, or bad "subjectivists". This language is polarizing and invites disrespect.
On top of that, I have seen them judge excellent gear that has stood the test of time and market as garbage. Without listening. Without considering that perhaps people are less interested in the measurement than their own perceptions. And this hurts the industry. Because it has trained a legion of audiophiles to hate what they might find to love. The Audio business is a tough one. The survivors are few. There have always been many pathways to audio satisfaction. Many of them, like for example, those who prefer the "British" sound, or those who love vintage 70's style, or those who love SET amplifiers. These are the muses that give the pursuit life and happiness. Not just the ones that measure to ASR standards. I personally have enjoyed all these things. And they have given me joy and pause to consider, while I celebrate and experience the music I love.
Amir aims to destroy that possibility. He wants to "set us free" from things that don't measure well. Even if we enjoy those things.
I think it is also important to note that in a marketplace of competing audio products, there are many ideals being pursued by many brave, talented and hardworking entrepreneurs. Audio products are designed to sound great, with measurement as a consideration, without it being the end goal. Pass Labs is a famous example of a company who is open about this. This is actually the whole reason for the hobby. We like things that sound the way we like them to sound. We like options. We like to explore different sound approached. We like to hear our favorite music being framed by all these different things because each one lends insight into the music in it's own way.
And some of us love shiny things. The world loves shiny things. Fashion and beauty are noble pursuits. My EAR Yoshino gear sounds fantastic to me. And it has a 1/4 inch think aluminum faceplate polished like a mirror. It looks awesome and I am proud to own it. There is nothing foul or unusual about this. It doesn't make me a fool. It makes me happy. If you want to try to make me feel foolish, that makes you an a**hole. It has nothing to do with me.
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