Sound Stage and Imaging

CSS seems like an awful good deal to me too. If I hadn't bought my Dynaudios, I would sure would try CSS today and save $$$

You remark is sarcasm not an answer...

My post only said that there is acoustics explanation for imaging and soundstage dimension ...

The gear synergy and design play an important role too ...

The electrical and mecanical embeddings controls of the system too ...

I also said that no DSP which is only a useful tool can replace the factors and parameters above nor replace the ears training by the way ... In the opposite DSP work the better when HRTF function and inner ears measures are done ...

I also said that any stereo system at any price will suffer from a lost of spatial qualities information by crosstalk interference in the ears/brain information processing, then no DSP can correct effectively this without timbre degradation in the process save the BACCH filters DSP not the one you play with 😊...

You said that i must stick to headphones which is sarcasm devoid of arguments as is your dogmatic usual posture after reading the DSP manual owner as scriptures ...

Acoustics and psycho-acoustics rule the gear/room relation, Your DSP is not enough ...

Imaging dont appear by luck save perhaps in your life not in mine , imaging appear once the synergy between the pieces of gear is given , and with a system where the room acoustics and the speakers are coupled rightfully as it is explained in acoustics articles or books ... And the only DSP mandatory is the BACCH filters because no other DSP suppress crosstalk without degradation of timbre ..

Inform yourself before insulting as an answer ...

By the way because i dont like to be perceived as an imbecile i NEVER post one line sarcasm or insult detrimental to someone , save in a friendly humor communication ... NEVER because i CAN give sound arguments and if i could not i recognize my errors and mistakes instead of insulting or mocking ...

By the way your sarcasm in another post about  headphones owner reveal the abyss of your dogmatic ignorance  about acoustics  and your snobism about audiophile  matters ...

@mahgister

I think you should just stick to headphones.

I think you should just stick to headphones.

that sounded harsh

@grislybutter thanks for the list/table. I am benchmarking against my Nautilus 804.

And which CSS are you referring to? the one in the table CSS Criton 1TD-X?

@mijostyn I was partially kidding with the screws. Just a bit unusual to see them as exposed as they are in any speaker over say $100 pair. Most would make the REAR panel removable (with 'under' mounted bass driver). 

@kraftwerkturbo I would probably go for the 2TD-X - still inexpensive compared to "finished" speakers

Kits: not afraid at all. build quite a few back then (very nice finish Eton 10 (in the 80's; GREAT sounding Focal Onyx (still dreaming of it, actually though about recreating it). Recently my sub: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1HPeV4E7xUvmPwq5cBFlI633_yk-dXJy2/view?usp=drive_link

@grislybutter just checked the specs of the 2TD-X. Rated at 100W.

As with every small speaker: do they have enough (even with help from big sub under 50 or (pushing it) 80 Hz) in them to fill a large (volume vise think 40x40x10) room with 100+ db (think Wagner size orchestra authentic SPL)?

@kraftwerkturbo 

Yes, it is unusual, but the British are unusual. I can say that the P3's construction is first class using the best materials. I have never seen tighter miters. 

@grislybutter 

I did not mean it to be harsh at all. He is concerned about crosstalk. Headphones are the best way to defeat it. 

I think building your own speakers is a wonderful thing to do. There are hundreds of excellent drivers available, your computer gives you the power to make important measurements and digital signal processing makes time alignment and phase accurate crossovers a breeze. I know exactly what I would do for dynamic speakers. Unfortunately, I am an ESL junky. All I have left to do is the subwoofers and they are the hardest enclosure to get right.  

I take it negatively guess why ?

In another post you claimed that headphones listeners are not true audiophiles because headphones are inferior to speakers...Do you remember ?😊

In my world , and i disliked headphones all my life , they are different not superior or inferior ...

Each one has his set of problems which must be adressed and these problems are as important and impeding S.Q. in the two cases. and NONE was inferior or superior precisely because of the negative impact of the trade-off implicated in these different designs ...

Crosstalk is the main problem of speakers with the room acoustic complex parameters to balance which problems are huge problems never adressed or even never perceived as problems ( especially crosstalk) by many audiophiles ...

Shell design and flawed acoustic chamber of the headphone and the absence of HRTF function transfer in the design of headphone, and the phantom image very artificial illusion centered in the head and the lack of body response to the dynamic pressure of the sound and the frequency constraints of the cells compared to a real instrument etc...

Neither speakers right out of the box neither headphones are superior to one another contrary to what you claimed associating headphones owners to secondary cheap audiophiles... ( the ratio S.Q. versus price indeed is superior with headphone)..

Then i take your sentence as a sarcasm at least and as a refusal to answer to my criticism of your post above with no arguments save insult...

You can now say what you said out of the context of your posts as if this sentence was not what it really was...i will stop here ...I dont want to inflame this discussion ... but truth matter ..

I have no grudge against you , i just give my opinion ...😊 And i entertain no grudges precisely because i always give my thoughts clearly here with arguments...

I did not mean it to be harsh at all. He is concerned about crosstalk. Headphones are the best way to defeat it.

@kraftwerkturbo 

I have no idea at that roomy size. I have experience with smaller rooms and a lot of speakers but that's a big space to fill. You are right, they would be too small. My guess is you need to move a lot of air, maybe used horns at that price range? 

@mijostyn I misunderstood then.

To be fair, you could tell me I should stick to baking. (I think I can bake)

I have an infinitely small knowledge of all things audio yet I am still here and comment on things, when I feel I have something to contribute. But I am probably a moron 9 out of 10 times. There were no exam to pass to enter this forum :)

Room size concern: I am currently running my Nautilus 804 as SMALL speaker with lowest sub crossover my receiver can offer (50 Hz). Her two 16.5 cm low woofers cut at 350 Hz, and the large mid range runs from 350 to 4k. 

@grislybutter 

I can cook great, but baking requires too much accuracy for me.  @mahgister still took offence due to my previous comments about headphones. Anyway you can enjoy music is fine by me. Music lovers and audiophiles are two separate groups although you can be both. Believe it or not I know audiophiles who are not music lovers. They are sound lovers. Most music lovers are not audiophiles (Thank God).

If you are building your own loudspeakers you are most definitely a true audiophile in the best sense. 

Magister, you are over analyzing me. I am a simpleton, a rather rude one. Blame my parents. 

@kraftwerkturbo 

254 Hz is middle C! 350 Hz is well into the mid range. RAISE THE CROSSOVER POINT for the subwoofer.  Get it around 100 Hz and you will improve your speaker's headroom dramatically. If you are using one subwoofer 100 Hz might be a problem. If you can locate the sub by ear the best solution is a second subwoofer. If you can not do that drop the crossover point one step at a time until you can not locate it. This also assumes you are using a high pass filter on the main speakers. 

In spite of my criticism about some of your posts  where you discredited headphone owners , i appreciate that you are generally not only polite but patient...

By the way i like you as you are and you can be useful for information you deliver rightfully ...

this does not means that all you claims reflect absolute truth as you already know for sure ...😁

Dont change but try to open your eyes for other possibilities ...

Remember that i dont entertain grudges... But i like to be factual and sometimes more philosophical and i argue too much for some ... They even could be right ... 😊😉

my best to you as usual ...

Magister, you are over analyzing me. I am a simpleton, a rather rude one. Blame my parents.

I build my own room mechanical equalizer ...And i modified my speakers and all my headphones for the better i hope that this exclude me from the crowd of ignorant passive consumers audiophiles ?

If you are building your own loudspeakers you are most definitely a true audiophile in the best sense.

@grislybutter "254 Hz is middle C! 350 Hz is well into the mid range. RAISE THE CROSSOVER POINT for the subwoofer" The Nautilus 804 has no subwoofer, just 'woofer'. And small ones to begin with, so 350 Hz does NOT sound like a very high frequency for a 165mm cone (in fact the true MIDRANGE speaker has about the same size !!! playing all the way to FOUR THOUSAND Hz!)

And messing with the crossover of a fairly successful commercial speaker is "dangerous" IMO. The I'd rather do a full DIY and safe a few thousand dineros.

@kraftwerkturbo One more idea: Celestions are famous for their imaging. Under a $500 for a SL 6. Add 2 midrange subs and still under budget?

Too much thinking/evaluating options. Had a pair of local Vanderstein 1 slip by (gone now for $250), not sure if that is a loss. Friend has 2B, but not suitable audition room, but sounded 'easy', 'light', 'airy'. 

@grislybutter reading up on SL6 (SL6s? SL600). Also Thiel CS1 (xxx) mentioned in this context. Opinions?

@kraftwerkturbo I know nothing about Thiels other than that they don't exist anymore. I have a friend who knows 20 times more about audio than I do and loves them, but that's anecdotal.

And the Celestion was a wild idea, I own the 5s and love them and heard the SL6s and they please me like very few speakers do, it's very personal, may not work for you

JBL has speakers in that price range. They bang for the buck with Dynamics, kick. Might not be the most smooth in the midrange, or treble but Dynamic. It depends what you like.

We could all make recommendations till the cows come home, but you should make sure you address your room (and how it effects the sound), complimentary gear synergy, and specific speakers for your musical taste to improve on soundstage and imaging.

@kraftwerkturbo ,

I thought you were using outboard subwoofers, crossed at 50 Hz? No you do not want to mess with a speakers internals. My point is asking a driver that is handling 350 Hz to do 20 Hz caused  the driver to Doppler distort a most sensitive part of the midrange. The inflection point over which Doppler distortion is not noticeable seems to be 100 Hz in my estimation dealing with electrostatic speakers. Distortion is more noticeable with these speakers. 

@mijostyn Yes, I run one large subwoofer crossing at 50 Hz, and run the Nautilus 804 as 'small' to relieve from 50 and below duty (also relieving the receiver from the heavy lifting for that frequency range). So the Nautilus woofers only have to handle 50-350. I have found that very beneficial also with other speakers/receivers combinations after initially running the the speakers/receiver as 'full range'  only 'adding' the subwoofer for the low frequencies. 

Smaller speakers that can handle power can throw some insane stage properties. Even in difficult spaces - to a degree. I’m floored by how my Spendor 4/5 Classics can maintain composure, naturalness, pump dynamics and throw deep and wide with care in placement (got them used for $1300). But having a good amp and pre at about the same price really made this happen too. What kind of amplification have you got going?

Tech is getting crazy good with powerful class D and chip amps if you wanted to get something affordable that can get you in the ballpark.

No need to go crazy in your room, but you will at least need to get some diffusion/absorbtion on your walls with symmetrical placements. Many diagrams out there to get you started. Not the only solution, but GIK can help with suggestions. Just send them pics and they’ll give you some free advice.

A totally different direction would be to save up and get a pair of active speakers with room correction capabilities via house software. Buchardt Audio has a couple of amazing setups with their own dedicated stands. A local dealer has a pair of small Cabasse Rialto speakers that would just blow your mind. Crazy good sound stage, and surprisingly refined tonality. Has its own dacs, streaming capabilities. Something like 1,000 watts total amplification separates between a concentric tweeter/midbass, and a powerful rear-firing sub. It has built in mics to aid with a cloud based room correction to boot.
But they’re $3.9k.

Any way you slice it, placement and at least minor treatment within the room is pretty essential.

Do you have more choices of crossover points? With one subwoofer you can not go as high as 100 Hz because it will allow you to localize the sub which is not good. You have to use at least two subs. But, you can probably take it as high as 80 Hz if the slope is 18 dB/oct or steeper. The other thing you do not want is a sub getting into your midrange. 

The less distortion the speaker creates the better the image. I think the stage is a more a matter of the recording, it most definitely changes with recordings from "in your face" to Symphony Orchestra wide, front row to back of the theater. The image is also recording dependent, but there is certainly a system element. Some systems can image others are more vague about it. The key is less distortion, phase aberrations and finally the frequency response curves of both channels need to be identical. This last part is not so easy to do. You have to be able to measure both channels (always a good thing to do) then you have to be able to modify those curves. Very few systems have the ability to do that effectively. Plain PEQ will not work. You have to be able to draw target curves which means more advanced digital signal processing.  

@riccitone 

You are absolutely right. I have set up systems with LS3 5As on stands with subwoofers and blind folded you would think you were listening to much larger speakers. They also image better than many larger speakers and there is less enclosure coloration. You have to run the subs up to 100 Hz to get the best effect which requires very steep cutoffs.

There is one issue I think you need to think about. The ability to move "fast" determines a driver's high frequency limit. Most subwoofer drivers run easily up to 500 even 1000 Hz. 100 Hz is never a problem. The larger the driver the slower (shorter excursion) it has to move to produce the same frequency at identical volumes which is why larger drivers have less distortion and frequently better transient response, just the opposite of what many people think. The same is true for multiple drivers as it is really a surface area thing. To make really accurate and powerful low bass IMHO you need at least two 15" or four 12" drivers in most average size rooms. I use eight 12" drivers. Above 15" the cone becomes more difficult to control. I have seen strobe films of 18" drivers moving in some wild ways, anything but pistonic. I would use Eight 15" drivers but the size of enclosure required would not work in my room. 

@mijostyn

Ive always wondered about using larger driver subs. Thank you for explaining those size limitations, good to know from someone that has actually experienced the effect of between 12 and 15inch drivers. Can only imagine how amazing your setup sounds!

I’ve only (currently) got a rel t/7x. I do like it a lot, but hoping to move to something open baffle, and two of them (each with a 12 or something to that effect) to better balance the room and control modes, blow open a more true stage. I’m sure it would become a bit of a crossover adjustment nightmare, and might need to get into some software but would be so cool. Am waiting until I might move into a larger space, however. But even if my current space is relatively small, wondering what at least a second rel sub could do.

I can passionately recommend a used pair of Alon (now Nola) 4 or 5's, which can be found for less that $2k. The open baffle mid and tops provide incredible soundstaging with pinpoint imagery when driven by a big solid state amp like a Krell ksa 100. The sealed 12 inch bass driver provides mind-boggling bass.

I keep a hot rodded pair of Alon iv's (they have the mid range driver and tweeter from the v's, also used in then range topper Phalanx, easily done with help from Carl at Nola) as my spare speaker. They were my main speakers for over ten years, loved them so much i couldn't part with them.

You didn't mention the genres you enjoy, but the Alons were a triumph whatever i played through them, from jazz soul and trip hop to deep house and drum and bass.

As mentioned, my single sub is 18". Don't want to trust it to handle 100 Hz (and the Nautilus are not known to be 'weak down low'.

But I have to go high in my small setup with various small bookshelf speakers, some of them do NOT feel good handling 80 or lower (certainly not at higher SPL), so there i need to drive the DD15 sub to 100 Hz. 

@riccitone 

A second sub will do a whole lot. The only limitation on subwoofer size and numbers is the room you have for them. There are excellent drivers available today that can operate in very small enclosures, you just need more power. I advise against open baffle subwoofers. I tried that approach as I have been using open baffle speakers (ESLs) since 1978-9. The thought was that it would match them better. It was a mess. The wavelengths are too long. Subwoofers are omnidirectional and the out-of- phase waves cancel in an unpredictable pattern literally canceling out some notes. Today with digital crossovers and time alignment it is a breeze to match subs perfectly. One subwoofer is always a mistake, it is  putting your bass in prison. The minimum for a point source system is two. Open baffle speakers by all means, but not the subwoofers.

A hifi shop owner that got a fat stack from me recently knows how to make speakers sing. I used to stop in monthly and listen and he could take a pair of large floor standers and have them sound like a live band one time and the next visit, in the same room, same wall have them sound like mini monitors. I’ve heard him do it with every new feature speaker he demonstrates. 

I asked him how he does it and I get a smile back for an answer. 

@steve59 That is easy: he uses the cheap china pixeldust from Walmart at one time, and the audiophile quality $50k/pound pixeldust the other time. And uses his home made electrical current with ground rod staked into the equator at 11.11 pm on 11.11.

Try to get a pair of used Odyssey Audio Kismets. Soundstage is exactly what they do best. Wide and deep. 

kraftwerkturbo OP

252 posts

12-16-2023 at 06:08pm

@steve59 That is easy: he uses the cheap china pixeldust from Walmart at one time, and the audiophile quality $50k/pound pixeldust the other time. And uses his home made electrical current with ground rod staked into the equator at 11.11 pm on 11.11.

Thanks for explaining that. All this time I thought he was painstakingly measuring, moving, listening, measuring moving, listening. Spending hours using toe in and tools to get the best out of his systems. Thank god for pixiedust. lol

@tom2015 Yeah, those ScanSpeak Beryllium seem to be the cats meow for a 2 way (I have always been a fan of ribbon tweeter, but they need a midrange, no good for under 4 or 5k). PRICEY (and hence the Kismets as well, and not very 'common' therefore no low price used around). 

As far as small bookshelves go, what about:

Dali Oberon 3

B&W 606 S2, 707S

Kef LS50 Meta, Kef R3

Sonus Faber Lumina II, Venere

Speakers, speakers, speakers.

Without good recordings, good acoustics, good source and proper Pre/Amplification ..... no ticky, no laundry.

You have a 20x20xH? room, the potential for imaging is fab, but if you also like DYNAMICS/Slam, you'll need an amp that'll deliver clean grunt. To get speakers & amplification for $2G`s is a pipe dream, but ya have to start somewhere.

Hunt for 8ohm speakers with an efficiency north of 93db. Speakers that'll mate up nicely with a Bryston 3Bsst squ/3 (3B`s are a bargin) ..... that ought to fill the volume of your room for starters.

Enjoy the journey.

re "what about"

they are all good value, safe choices. I have never heard Dali but the others (some models of KEF, B&W and SF) - however, none of them get me excited. From your budget you could get a used Dynaudio Contour 20s or Harbeths or MoFi speakers. What is your approach to narrow down your search?

@mahgister "...imaging is NEVER achieved by luck or haphazard owners actions , but by acoustic good conditions and gear synergy for sure ..."

Are you speaking about image as a holographic or two dimensional ?

IF you have an amp with some grunt the big brother of the model 1’s and 2’s you admire is the Vandersteen 3A - signature. Time and phase correct in the analog domain  and drivers and crossovers seemless matched by hand in the anechoic chamber in California since 1977. 

@mijostyn only got part of it right, he isn’t a simpleton.. BTW, you really should build your own electrostatic…1982 project for me…. hand rubbing graphite on to mylar and then taking the Beveridge path…. Harold was a gem….we sold his gear

l

@tomic601 

I have been down that route. I now only build stuff I know I can do better than anything commercially available and I can not do better than Sound Labs although I have made some modifications. Nothing spectacular. I added a second set of inputs so I can drive the high frequency transformer separately and bypassed all of the controls. 

I installed Beverages in two systems back in 1980 or so, the tall Round Towers with Mark Levinson equipment, Tandberg tape decks and LP12s. Fine systems for the day. I never met Harold but I knew Jim Strickland of Acoustat well. I ran 2+2s for decades. 

@kraftwerkturbo 

The Sonus Fabers are the best of that group. I compared the LS50 Meta directly with the Harbeth P3 and there was no comparison. The Harbeth was significantly better. My son in law bought the Harbeths and built two 12" subs from Dayton kits.

@mahgister "...imaging is NEVER achieved by luck or haphazard owners actions , but by acoustic good conditions and gear synergy for sure ..."

Are you speaking about image as a holographic or two dimensional ?

Imaging is the soundfield differentiation in space ...

Soundstaging is the three encompassing global dimensions of the soundfield way out of the speakers plane filling the room...

Holographic is the projection of the soundfield from points imaging in space to volumes distributed in space ...

Immersiveness when timbre perception is relatively accomplished as natural is the soundfield ratio between the sound source dimension and the listener position (ASW/LV ) in a word when the holography include the listener position ... Immersiveness is reached and timbre done relatively well when imaging soundstaging and holography are clearly perceived and distinguished together...

To all this i will add the acoustic aura and air between the volumes of each instrument in super high end systemin a completely controlled room ...(not mine) 😊

The best spatial attributes of sound maybe reached at any price but relatively (a low cost amplifier is not a 20,000 bucks one ) , first with Synergy between gear , at any price, then with mechanical and electrical controls of the working dimensions , and last but not least with acoustic control (not just mere passive treatment ) of the relation between the room pressure zones distribution and the speakers...But all that is not enough ...

Because of problems affecting all stereo system by crosstalk and the irrealism of the phantom images among many problems we need ears internal measures, HTRF measures. moving head measures filmed in real time and on top of that the BACCH filters system of Dr, Choueiri ...

Without all that even imaging will stay an abstraction almost as some points distributed in a spatial dimension between 2D and three D near the speakers and between it ... Even with some costlier system and even with EQ analog or digital, it is simple to deduce that it is not enough ....😁 And the sarcasms of some about any spatial true characteristics of sound as mere "illusions", "echoes", and "artefacts" says a lot about their own experience in their own system ...

Knowledge and creativity create S.Q. ,not  mere price tag nor mere EQ. which is only one among other useful tools ...

How to approach the selection? 

See if something of the recommendations shows up nearby that can be auditioned  Listen. If promosing: Negotiate 'try at home' audition or return option. Sell other stuff to finance. 

I haven’t seen discrete mention of the importance of driver surface area emphasized re: your intentions. Hints, but not the harsh reality check:

A 40 x 40’ room (am I recalling dimensions correctly?) is immense by hifi speaker standards. It will take an incredible second-hand deal, or a very decent PA kit deal, to fill suitably given that intense orchestra is your benchmark.

The DIY route was well-advised at your price point, even if perfection proves elusive 😉

https://audioroundtable.com/misc/nflawp.pdf

These used JA Prisms are definitely worth a look…

https://tmraudio.com/speakers/bookshelf-speakers-monitors/joseph-audio-prism-bookshelf-speakers-black-pair-2/

I missed where you live but Gene Rubin lets potential buyers audition Harbeths in the LA area,

We carried Beveridge, Quad, Soundlab, Acoustat, and Apogee…. and more…. 

it was a golden time….