So in my last post I was asking opinions on three very different types of speakers; the Volti Razz, Tannoys and Magnepans. As I live in the sticks there's not a lot of opportunity to hear many products; there's not a hi fi place within four hours and then the selection is very limited.
Many of you told me I needed to hear these things beforehand if possible so I packed up wife, aging mom and our five month old lab pup and hit the road. I drove from the very tip of the mitt in Michigan to Nashville. I chose Nashville as there was a shop with Tannoy, one with Magnepan and the Volti's are made nearby. For some reason I thought they were made in Franklin, Tn which is half an hour south of Nashville. Turns out it was an hour and a half east so the one day I had planned turned into two.
I went to Volti and Greg Roberts was there as I had informed him of my wish. He gave me a tour of the facility where all the magic happens and I was very impressed. It's a one man operation and it's a very professional facility. We proceeded from the tour and a glimpse of his Rival speakers which are quite a bit larger than the Razz to his future living area which is separated by a covered walkway. This area stores most of his components and parts and where he and his wife live though as of now it's not quite finished. It also showcases the Volti Vittori's which are massive and beautiful.
We were ushered into an unfinished room where he had a rig set up along with the Razz. My wife and I were seated center and he proceeded to demonstrate. I was floored by the sound and the imaging these big horns have. Vocals were sublime and everything delivered satisfyingly. I heard a bit of the shouty that some speak of when they talk horns. I attribute this to the fact that the room was unfinished, concrete floors, unfinished drywall and very little as far as furniture and absorption. I only stream at home so I didn't bring anything as far as reference material but he had the ability to stream and played some things to demonstrate their capability but I only heard one thing that I was intimately familiar with as my wife was getting a little impatient as we were running out of time. We had decided to leave our pup at a local vets for day boarding as it was 94 out and with an hour and a half drive to get her before they closed time was limited.
The next morning I was met by the owner of a high end home theater/ 2 channel shop that carried Magnepans. He demonstrated the 3.7s driven by Bryston gear. I was impressed as I had never heard them before and they certainly sounded great but I don't know how to describe what it was about them. Something for me seemed to be missing, it may have been the fact that I couldn't pinpoint the source of what I'm hearing which was unfamiliar. Ultimately I decided they weren't for me, especially after he suggested I would have to think about adding monoblocks to my Parasound Halo integrated which would have driven up my cost considerably. I also had a fear my cats would think they'd make a dandy scratching post though they haven't done so with other towers.
He carried a couple of different lines however and one of these happened to be Dali. He had a pair of Opticon 5s hooked up and just for s^&ts and giggles I gave them a listen. They really impressed me enough to want to hear the Opticon 8 that he had marked down to make way for the new Opticon 8mks. He was kind enough to take these out of the boxes and hook them up. They did everything right for me to the point it created quite a dilemna for me as I was leaning towards the Volti's.
My concern with the Volti's ultimately is listener fatigue. It could have been the unfinished room, it could have been their size verses my room size. I need to talk more with him on this matter. I think overall they are a better speaker than the Dali's but this observation could be biased by my like for Greg and my wanting them to be THE ONES.
Go with your gut right? The Dali's really checked all my boxes. These are a demo pair that he's knocking $500 off current list plus shipping so about a $300 savings. He says he will let me return them less a $200 restocking fee if they don't work in my room or a store credit. I've found a used pair listed about a 3 hour drive from me that are 9/10 in his opinion that I can get for $1500 but there wouldn't be any return of course.
@audiotroy that's one of the things that amazed me about them. I had been outside briefly while he hooked them up. It was only after listening and the holographic imaging they created and then really looked at them that I discovered they weren't even optimally placed as they were faced haphazardly and one set forward of the other quite a bit. This made me drool a bit when I knew how much better they would be placed properly. With them I still have some hesitancy about their size. They are recommended for big rooms and I don't consider mine to be at 12x25.
@ebm that's pretty ambiguous! Of course there are better speakers out there but I don't have better speaker out there kind of money. What do you speak of? I just recently bought a pair of 1980s Klipsch Heresy's that I came across so I could familiarize with horns more and listen in my room. They were quite a step up in SQ over the much newer B & W bookshelves I was using. So much so that it lead me to the Volti's.
My concern with the Volti's ultimately is listener fatigue.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ The fatigue syndrone is not something we can live with. I have my Seas W18 addeda new Davidlouis 4 inch full range,,,soon to replace the 4 witha 6.5 DavidLouis, and add a Seas Crescendo tweeter. Sure its a odd speaker, its a speaker that reminds me of Frank Sinatra's hit song,,,**and I did IT MY way** fatigue does not enter into the listening experience. Which is the goal I set some 40 years ago, and finally its all comming **My own way**
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Just about any speaker, maybe even Bose beats out B&W. Like I say above , you may want to look into putting together a DIYer. Not too difficuly really.
Ah, the speaker journey…been there and it’s not easy. The B&W 606 bookshelves you own now are decent for what they are but sound vastly different then these other speakers on your list. What do you currently like/don’t like about the bookshelves? If your just interested in another type of speaker altogether, your in the right track by auditioning as many speakers as you can which interested you.
I can relate…45 days after hip surgery I drove 2 hours and listened to a custom setup of Klipschorns with active biamping and DSP at an audio hobbyists home. I also listened to new factory spec Magnepan, Cornwalls, KlipschHorns, several different Legacy Audio, Avant-garde, Zu Audio, B&Ws (Note: had N800s, still own 802s), to sample their “voicing” and how their individual characteristics in design presented the music back to me. I was on the hunt for years, yes years. It was not until I heard the Classic Audio Loudspeakers T1.5 at an audio show is when I found “it”, the sound I was looking for.
For me, I was looking for efficiency, horn type, large drivers, and found that in the Classic T1.5. Price was out of my league new so I kept searching, but got lucky and found a demo pair for sale which allowed me to obtain them. Here is the BLUF: Take your time, listen as much as you can, set your budget range up to a maximum allowable limit for your means, and remember this, buying a used model with all the features that checks all of your boxes, and is within your budget is not a bad thing. Good luck.
BTW, Michigan bound in the future close to Grand Rapids.
If you are going to buy the Dali’s, I think you should get them from the dealer. Not just because of the opportunity to return, but because the dealer took so much of their time to demonstrate to you.
@audioquest4life the bookshelves just didn't fill the room or 'push the air'. Because you mentioned the T1.5 I had to see what they were and know why you like them! Those sound incredible even over crappy laptop speakers and they are astoundingly beautiful! Alas! Unless I have an unknown rich relative who loves me or win the lottery they are certainly out of my atmosphere. Grand Rapids is still mostly sane but I like it more where there are dramatically less people. From what I saw there are a couple if hi fis in GR but very limited lines. Thanks and good luck.
If you own and love Klipsch and don't find them fatiguing it's unlikely you will find the Volti's fatiguing. As @tvad says the driving amp is a very important piece of the puzzle. I've always heard Volti paired with Border Patrol was that what Greg was using? And what amp was the dealer running on the Dalis?
@peter_s I'm leaning that direction as I will also have some support if needed. @jond The Dalis were Bryston, not sure on the Volti's but my unit is SS and he had tubes which he hinted were something I should look at in the future, another consideration for the pro-con list.
You are doing it the right way - by listening and comparing pros and cons.
I second the recommendation to either go with the Volti from the designer or the Dali from the dealer that took the time to demo them for you.
As to which you should pick, can’t help you there because I haven’t heard either one. Which did your wife prefer? If you could go either way, tell her you’ll let her pick the speakers if she’ll agree to let you do an amp upgrade in near future ; )
No matter what configurations you decide on, you should measure the in room frequency response at the listening position to see how the sub settings affect the sound. Preferably, use a device that displays in real time with test tones how your adjustments are working. I use an older Velodyne SMS-1 subwoofer EQ which displays the frequency response with test tones in real time. There are so many other modern measuring tools you can use. For me, the Velodyne SMS-1 EQ works great.
I thought I posted the link to the measurements previously. Before and after setup.
It is all about what you like but horn speakers do need to be in a damped room to perform at their best and horns will also play all types of music well with low distortion but if the dali sounds better to you by all means go for it and enjoy the musical journey.
Of course audiotroy has a pair of Dali’s for sale, that’s why he recommended them. If you are going to buy the Dali’s, you should buy them from the dealer that set them up for you to hear. It’s not right for people to go to brick and mortar stores to hear or try out something then go back home and try to find a cheaper 1 for sale. I go to shows to listen so then I can buy anywhere for the best price.
Huh? You "drove from the very tip of the mitt in Michigan to Nashville."? I admire the zeal and dedication but wouldn't Music Direct in Chicago have been less of a haul?. They probably wouldn't have everything you're interested in, unless they have some trade-in stuff, but they are a large operation, very highly regarded and have lots of high-end stuff. Judging from their website, looks like they have Dali.
You listened to Opticon 8mks right "out of the boxes"? In other words, not broken in at all?
You also seemed to have done your auditioning in different sounds rooms with different acoustics, different source gear and sometimes with speakers not exactly optimally placed in the room. Not exactly a good way to go about critical listening or auditioning gear. While it's virtually impossible to control all conditions for critical listening, the more you can replicate or come as close as possible to your home conditions, the better sense you'll have of how something might perform under your roof. Room dimensions, seating position or the proverbial sweet spot, how your room is laid out, furniture, windows, rug, no rug, hardwood floor, ceiling height, space behind the sweet spot, etc. are factors to take under consideration. While you'll never really know how speakers will perform until you get them home, have them hooked up to your gear and fully broken in, trying to control as many conditions as possible in auditions or critical listening sessions will help. Listening to things in a haphazard way is risky business, generally speaking. It's also a good idea to find out what the return policy is in case you end up being disappointed and want to return what you buy.
I took a few hour road trip to Iowa, pair of Vega D9’s pair. Drove hours, arrived, and the wiring was redone, speaker surround was dry rotted, nothing mentioned about this in ad. Such a schmuck, wasted al ost 3/4 tank of gas to a liar.
A good trip was for a pair of older BIC v830 pair, only a small dent on top corner, I think it was 80$. Great speakers. Also use the smaller brothers BIC v630 pair as reference recording my LPs’ to computer to burn to cd.
Well designed horn speakers aren’t "shouty" at all, any more than non horns are all reticent and dull...generalizations don’t further a discussion, they’re just lazy (except this generalization regarding generalizations).
@oldaudiophile I chose Nashville because the Volti's are mfg there nearby, there was a dealer who carried Tannoy (out of stock) and another with the Magnepans. I had not considered Dali's. The Dali's had been used as a demo pair previously then reboxed. Admittedly room conditions weren't optimal but are they any better at shows? @kren0006 Wife liked the Volti's as she said it felt like your are sitting right in front of the orchestra pit but then added "it's right in your face" which we both think may be tiring. It's such a hard thing because they sounded so sweet! @wolf_garcia I think the Volti's are designed very well but the room was poor. If I could throw 5k at something to see if they sounded right in my room I'd choose them. I agree with your assessment about generalizations however. @arcticdeath That sucks about the CVs. I have to find something that will present RUSH properly!
Your best bet is to ignore posts like the one by @arcticdeth
Horns can sound glorious. But it appears that Greg's room needs some attention. I can listen to my Cornwall IVs for hours without the slightest hint of fatigue. Properly set up in a well thought out room and with good supporting equipment, horns can convey the emotional experience of music like few others can.
Been here for 43 years, had a few different speakers here. My favorite speakers are my current vintage horn tweeter, horn midrange, 15" woofer. (see photo of speaker’s innards)
You will find, with horns, with proper balance of highs/mids/lows, you will listen at lower volume than prior ’normal’ and enjoy amazing imaging/detail with no need to concentrate, just enjoy.
Those speakers should not produce listener fatigue IMO. Concentration to ’hear’ ’be aware of’ imaging/detail is the source of listener fatigue IMO.
High efficiency of any speaker will be a great advantage regarding smaller amp, probably tubes eventually, not just smaller price, also less weight/size/heat, more placement options (remotes require direct line of infrared beam). .................................................
Of your choices, I would ask for a customized pair of Volti Razz.
I would ask him to include a pair of high quality L-Pads, to allow you to alter the balance of mid to woofer and tweeter to mid IN YOUR SPACE! You may never alter them, but, like my 3 way horns/big woofer, I bet you will.
He would need to change the crossover so that his ’normal’ frequency response is designed for mid-attenuation (like most famous speakers did in the old days). Not rocket science, I bet he would enjoy doing this.
Then, for each/any listening space you can reduce attenuation for dull rooms, increase attenuation for live/bright rooms, and your personal taste, and perhaps boost the highs a bit as you age. You may use them in a different room someday.
..............................................
Loudness: any preamp you buy, look for a ’loudness’ circuit to boost the bass at lower volumes, the ability to still hear bass (jazz or rock) will keep the low volume music involving, that’s the difference to keeping low volume from becoming ’background music’.
misnamed/misunderstood. should be called ’low volume eq’ or ....., not loudness.
I use a Chase Remote Line Controller, RLC-1 with 2 methods: automatic fletcher-munson bass boost is progressively engaged as you reduce it’s volume, and remote volume/balance/bass/treble from your listening position, centered, or off in a corner while someone else is sleeping.
When you have superior and more easily discerned imaging, I found a very slight balance adjustment to an errant track can make a surprising difference, everything ’opens up’, easy to hear the results.
Something else in-line? Heresy! Once again, probably over 10 times, I have proven to myself and listening friends that we simply cannot hear any difference with or without it. 120db s/n seems to be true.
Dadork, I understand the angst all too well, having recently completed a many months quest to replace a beloved pair of Paradigm. However, my longest road trip was only 2 hours; nothing compared to what you and your family endured. God bless them for being so supportive!
Based upon what you've mentioned, thus far, I can't imagine you'd end up liking any electrostatic design, even the very expensive ones. Can't say I've ever heard the Razz but they certainly review very well by reviewers I trust and they are certainly beautiful speakers. Since you and your wife liked that horn loaded sound signature, have you done any serious seat-time with Klipsch? When I bought my Paradigm, many moons ago, I actually liked a pair of Klipsch (can't remember the model number) I A/B'd them with more, but they were considerably larger and required room placement criteria I couldn't accommodate. Back in 1972, I also liked a pair of Ohm Walsh F I listened to with a McIntosh beast of an amp and, then, a Phase Linear beast. However, I was a kid then with empty pockets. Haven't heard their new stuff but I'm guessing you and your wife might like that sound signature, as well. Those, too, require judicious room placement. Up for a road trip to Brooklyn?
In-state you could drive to Pontiac and hear Salk speakers where they're made and talk with the designer. There must be a couple of audio shops still left in greater Detroit (Royal Oak, perhaps), and there's always Ann Arbor.
I was so excited to see your thread title headline and then see your target brands. I recall making some suggestions which it seems you attempted.
I have faith that your dedication to this task will bear the fruit you seek. And since the whole fam damily went on the first junket, my bet is next time they will say-"Oh go ahead without us this time". 'That was truly a Once in lifetime adventure'. Reads Been there not going again.
All the baggage you dragged along was nice a "Family vacation" but next time go on a solo,
Dali are great sounding speakers. Nearly bought a used pair for $3k? in Montana. Fives? maybe 5-7 years old, Sonus faber looking and heavy!
Now the disappointments- -How does someone who designs speakers for a living allow them to be heard in an untreated room? Hard to wrap your head around that.
-No Go on the Tannoys! Darn it all. I have them. Hawthorne audio in Seattle is a dealer. Not so close unless you go by train.
Next time ask what is available to hear and burned in. New Tannoys exceed your budget slightly. Tannoy does not do shows in the US-to my knowledge.
How far is it to Minneapolis? Or Chicago? Keep on shopping if you can. I am a nut who drove 1,000 miles to get an XO rebuilt. Not every wife buys into that package.
I’m not too far from you. I would second checking with Jim Salk in Pontiac. While you’re in the area there’s David Michael Audio and I think Audio Dimensions is still around, both in Royal Oak. I’ve bought several speakers from Jim Salk. He usually has some speakers in the shop to audition. Check DMA’s website for the speakers he carries. Both great to deal with. Good luck in your search!
Hello, There is a store in Woodridge, Illinois called Holm Audio. They are a Dali dealer. They even have the Rubicon 6 blacks to listen to. All of them are fully broken in. I will tell you if you are looking for a speaker to play Rush it is definitely Dali. They truly rock. The nice thing about Dali is when you get to the 8” drivers they are more efficient. These are one of my favorite speakers. This store is right off the highway I355 and 75th st. They open at 11:00 am Tuesday through Saturday and close at 6:00 pm except on Tuesday’s and Thursday’s when they close at 9:00 pm. You have to come that way to go home anyways. Make sure you tell them what gear you have to push them so they can try to match the sound signatures. Also, try a little near field listening to remove the sound of the room so you know what they sound like without the room. I have been buying my gear from this store for over 20 years. The owner is a great guy who really cares about his customers. They take in trades, let you demo in your home, and have an upgrade program that is second to none. You do have the issue of being in UP Michigan, but I know they have customers who are all over the US that he ships to. These customers will only by from Holm Audio because of the relationship and trust. To me that’s what it boils down to. The trust! https://holmaudio.com What’s the worst that can happen. You and your wife get to go to a cool Hifi store to listen to your favorite music. Besides, the Chicagoland area has the best food. You cannot go wrong.
@elliotnewcombjr I know I may regret not going with the Volti's now but I think I'm going with the Dali's. I have secured a return on them if I don't find them right in room and if that's the case I will take the Volti leap.
Dadork, if you’re still curious about the Tannoys, check your direct messages as I might be able to help you. I have 3 pair in my home in Bloomfield I’m willing to demo for you.
@chorus thank you for the encouragement and the advice. As you said it did end up being more of a mini vacay as they say. A trip on my own would have been much better but wife wanted to get out of the house. Mom has alzheimer's so we can't leave her and we certainly couldn't leave her to watch a rambunctious 5 month lab pup! I have struck a verbal agreement with the Dali dealer and though no money has been exchanged I wouldn't feel right about not proceeding at this point. I don't have any doubt they are going to sound fabulous. I also purchased a pair of Straightwire Expressivo speaker cables (used) to compliment them as they are bi-wire.
I may have nightsweats thinking about the Volti's until the Dali's are set up but isn't that always the case? In a couple of years I believe I'm doing some remodeling and removing the oddly placed closet in the living room as well as the no longer used chimney; both of which limit seating position. The Volti's might be a better option then but hopefully I'll be in love with the Dali. Either way I'm imposing a moratorium on speaker purchases for a while.
@hshifi Thank you for letting me know your experience with them and how much you enjoy them. I think they'll be great! I do listen to a lot of different things but classic rock is the main course. I think these will be delicate when they need to be and forceful when demanded. Chicago was a bit off the path but maybe if there's a next time I will give them a look.
One thing I did want to mention is Greg was great and gracious and I think for a lot of people who know what they are doing they are going to be spectacular speakers.
dadark - inspiring story to me bc I know I will be driving and listening when I get to the point of upgrading speakers, which frankly I dread but know it has to be done at some point, thanks for sharing, your experience makes me dread this process a little bit less.
"Something for me seemed to be missing, it may have been the fact that I couldn't pinpoint the source of what I'm hearing which was unfamiliar. Ultimately I decided they weren't for me"
It’s tough to beat Martin Logan’s, imo. Maggie’s with the right subs are very good as well. Martin Logan’s of today don’t need subs. Boxed speakers rule audio, but that’s because there are so many more of them. But we’ve all got biases. Mine rest with Martin Logan.
@dadork - there is so much great gear out there. Everyone’s hearing, room, amplification and upstream sources are different. As well as the music you enjoy listening to - no gear is genre agnostic, unfortunately. I can listen to Volti Rivals for hours with no fatigue. Owned Dali in the past and they just didn’t do it for me....although others love them. So many variables. You’ll only really know once the speakers are hooked up to your gear in your room.
You must have a verified phone number and physical address in order to post in the Audiogon Forums. Please return to Audiogon.com and complete this step. If you have any questions please contact Support.
