Springs under turntable

twoleftears, 800 volts and 250 amps and you should be in great shape.

Lewm, you and none of those other people obviously have not heard a system like this. I would love to have you over for a quick demonstration and don't forget I am a fellow ESL lover. I am talking everything from Beethoven's early string quartets to Nine Inch Nails. If you think your system images now, I can make it image a lot better. If you think you have decent bass now, I can make Ron Carter materialize in your listening room. Any system you have heard was either set up incorrectly or it was using a sub standard unit without the necessary processing speed or resolution.  

@lewm   They're way ahead of you!

https://www.bidsquare.com/online-auctions/skinner/studio-brushed-steel-rocking-chair-1416477

@mijostyn- What you stated is exactly the issue that I am facing with springs and it is true for any electronics as it is true for a turntable. For any component, if you want to get the resonance frequency to somewhere below 3 cycles then you are working with a. softer springs in general, b. they are loaded to the max around 97-98% of the spring capacity, c. each spring is carrying the same load. Satisfying these conditions underneath any load let alone a heavy amplifier or a very fastidious turntable is going to be extremely difficult. That's why I keep looking for a tool which gives the CG location of a given component and/or something when attached to a spring shows the load that it's carrying.
Without those tools/guidelines embedded in the product even Minus K or Stacore platforms are not going to be very effective....
Beside this load adjustment issue you have to deal with the type of the platform that hosts the component. You need to make sure that it doesn't adversely impact the tonal balance.
It is because of these issues none of the products or ideas on the isolation currently available in the market provide a plug and play solution, in my opinion....
Thanks.

Yep. I do know what I am missing, and I don't miss it.Even when electronic manipulation of the system response is "transparent" (and I will believe that when I hear it), the subjective impression of the listeners I have been around is that they are not pleased with the SQ, compared to using no equalization on the very same system in the very same room.  Measurements do not coincide with the sense of verisimilitude that is after all what we are all ultimately seeking. I have attended several such demonstrations, and the net impression of other listeners and me is turn off the EQ. On the other hand, in your particular room with your particular equipment, etc, perhaps the results are different; I can hardly say otherwise. You can go your way, and I will go mine.  It would behoove you to recognize more often that you are expressing your opinion based on your own experiences, rather than to speak as if you are presenting the gospel.  This is not to say I don't advocate and implement room tuning to get the SQ I am after.  But I am sure that my room that satisfies me would not measure perfectly flat across the audible spectrum.

Lewm, you have no idea what you are missing. The really good units like My TacT and the Trinnov Amethyst do all their processing at 192 hz 48 bit
It is totally transparent. The power of these units is amazing. You not only get automated room control ( they automatically generate filters that bring each speaker individually to flat) but an incredible subwoofer crossover and bass management. I can independently change the frequency and slope of either the high pass or low pass filter on the fly. I can use slopes up to 10th order. I have dynamic loudness compensation. It changes its corrective slopes automatically with volume. The balance between bass treble and mid range stays exactly the same regardless of volume. I can program filters to adjust frequency response any way I want with 0.5 Hz precision. I can delay individual speakers so the the sound from each hits your ears at exactly the same time. Using this capability I can put the sweet spot anywhere in the room! This capability also matches the subwoofers in phase and time to the satellites. I can hold 9 different frequency response curves in memory and I can switch back and forth on the fly. As an example one has the BBC or Gundry dip programmed in so if things get harsh I activate that curve. All the programming is done on a PC and all the filters and curves are displayed in graph form. Everything that this unit does is done without any distortion. It is invisible. 
Talking about unbelievable differences, if I switch the system to bypass my wife will even ask me what happened. 
Once you use something like this you never look back. Back is the stone age. If you think you do not need it get a calibrated microphone and measurement program and check your system out. 

Every electronically-based room equalizer that I have ever heard does far more damage to the sound than it does good for the sound. So I agree with your strategy of altering the room, rather than the signal to give you your desired response at your listening seat.

Tonal timbre accuracy is too complex to be measured by computer program for sound....It takes ears to correct the room...

I correct mine with an astounding success on all counts by ears on a many months of experiments listenings, with TONAL TIMBRE accuracy, not frequencies of the bass... Now my bass are so intense and clear you will not believe what i take to reach that....(7 inches driver i hear with my stomach)

The important point, no ready made formula correcting frequencies can beat your ears to establish the best room possible for perception of timbre....

The same room is different for different ears, then also the fact that it must be FOR YOUR EARS that you work a room treatment not for a program or for another person.... 

All people speaking about bass are beside the point for me....

I dont need a woofer nor bass traps....Not even a program...

All treatment and controls cost peanuts....

:)

« The room is the third ear »-Groucho Marx

Traffic though the tunnel created very low frequency rumble exciting the panels cracking them.

The failure was in the epoxy holding the panels. They didn't crack due to rumble. 

Every electronically-based room equalizer that I have ever heard does far more damage to the sound than it does good for the sound. So I agree with your strategy of altering the room, rather than the signal to give you your desired response at your listening seat.

Mijo
I KNOW the windows are having a huge effect, hence the semi treatments to all of them.
Wood blinds on all of the side and back windows usually at 2/3 closed position.
Recent addition of heavy blackout curtains behind my gear and speakers on the large glass doors that open into the room, that had an even bigger impact than I expected.
But no I have no intention of getting any type of room control unit for this room atm.
I can live with ignorance is bliss because right now my listening experience is pure bliss!
Could it be better?
I am positive it can but small steps.

Uberwaltz, you measure it!  Check out this https://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-omnimic-v2-acoustic-measurement-system--390-792. My room control system essentially does the same thing. It measures each individual speaker. The frequency response above 10 kHz is significantly different in my right ESL than in the Left one. The only difference is the right one has a window in front of it on the side wall. The system corrected it but beforehand the window was smearing the image.
To produce the best image the frequency response of both speakers has to be identical or the image will smear to the side that is louder at any given frequency. There are always differences from one speaker to another of the same type not to mention that the speakers occupy different positions in the room. If you measure your system you will be amazed if not terrified at the variations in frequency response particularly below 100 Hz. The curve will look like a profile of the alps. 
It is a lot of fun to measure other people's system and show them how bad things are. 

So, Uberwaltz, do not downplay those windows. More than likely they are having a significant effect on the sound. But, it is hard to predict how. If you want to know measure it. But if you are not planning to get a room control unit don't bother. Ignorance is bliss. 

I made a big mistake. It is not a resonance frequency I was talking about above but the energy or power required to move the concrete. If you could pluck the cables holding up those concrete slabs the frequency would be very high because the cables are stretched tight and they are not very long. In buildings I believe the concrete is going to be placed on steel girders. The resonance frequency of the floor would be determined by the weight of the floors and the flex of the steel girders. The only thing I could hear when I lived in a 19 story apartment building was a low frequency boom when someone upstarts jumped down on the floor. A person weighting around 150 lb is going to put way more energy into the floor than any HiFi could. I had RH Labs subwoofers at the time and the only complainers were my next door neighbors. Nobody up or down ever complained.

Lewm, exactly right. The springs have to have the exact same rate and they have to be located exactly the same distance from the center of mass. Unfortunately, this is not so easy to find without harming the turntable. The result is that is is extremely difficult to get this right at a frequency below 3 Hz. It is far easier to create an unstable system than a stable one. INHO if you want a suspended turntable, and I believe everyone does even if they don't know it, buy a well engineered suspended turntable or a MinusK platform. This of course eliminates the Linn LP12:)

I think you just described my room Mijo, lol.

And which is why despite the too large amounts of glass it still works pretty well for me as my music room.

I would still think there maybe some slight differences but not sure how  you would start to prove it.

Yes Uberwaltz, you are right but the resonance frequency of the suspended units is so low. In Boston after the Big Dig a concrete paneled ceiling in one of the tunnels broke and collapsed on a car killing I think it was two people. Traffic though the tunnel created very low frequency rumble exciting the panels cracking them.
Again, they are so heavy there is not near enough energy produced by even the largest system to get the concrete "ringing"
That would apply to apartment buildings, office buildings and skyscrapers. Not to mention you can't play a system very loud in those buildings without pissing someone off.
Most of us I would assume (maybe I'm wrong) have reinforced concrete slabs sitting on compressed stone dust, a wonderful floor for a Media room. 

I don't use a sprung turntable, but in the days I had a Linn....the springs should be wound in different directions to cancel each other's bounce.

@lewm - I won't advocate for springs under the seat, with the speakers and electronics isolated correctly, there's absolutely no need. However nice padding to make it comfortable for hours of listening pleasure, ah yeah, I fully advocate for that!

Enjoy the tunes :-)

I am waiting for someone to advocate some sort of springs for one's listening seat.  After all, if all the equipment is bouncing around, shouldn't the listener be moving in tune?
Indranilson, I would not be too anal about perfect level for your turntable, although it should be very close to level if not perfectly so.  But what is more important, if you are going to spring load it, is that the spring action moves the table in the vertical direction with perfect symmetry or near to it.  You don't want an external disturbance to cause one end or corner of the table to move more than any other.  In the extreme case, this could provoke a mechanical oscillation. Could also cause problems with tracking the LP.

Hi @indranilsen, our set up atm is Ingress cup and rollers set up in a equilateral triangle on plan, balls touching the equipment directly, bases sitting on 30mm thick black slate which are square on plan, with springs supporting the slate platforms. The springs sit on one of our toetapaudio designed maple Audio furniture which is supported on Ingress speaker type double cup and rollers in each corner, four sets in total.

One could try fixing Ingress rollers directly to top of NobSound or perhaps Feet of Silence springs (use industrial double sided perhaps for a quick test and then perhaps use Epoxy at a later stage. Mechanical fixings would also be possible). You need both rollers and springs imo for best results (see Barry Diament).I may experiment with NobSound and FOS in this way but Ingress are also developing a version which incorporates a spring which I’m hoping to test the prototypes soon. I also have some designs of my own which I might get made.

All this is really worth while. Makes a huge difference. Don’t even think of upgrading until you are on top of seismic isolation imo.

There is another type of isolation which I’m looking into which might be interesting. I’ll let you know.

Right, that's the problem with concrete and stone, they ring. They are not inherently highly damped materials. What sounds great with a certain system at a certain level may not always sound so great as it gets better. With mine the problems with concrete and stone only started to sound like problems within the last couple of years. Before that it was like they were providing a solid foundation of impact and slam for bass and dynamics for midrange and treble. Then as things got better it gradually became more and more apparent the "contribution" they make is ringing. They add a certain hardness and glare. No getting around it. 

Concrete (and stone) being massive and stiff makes for a great platform or base on which to build. But they are not that great in and of themselves. Vibrations travel faster through hard high density materials like concrete than through soft low density materials like wood. That's just basic physics. So the fact concrete moves less at low frequencies really only makes the high transmission rate of higher frequencies all the more obvious. 

It just might not be obvious now. But it will be, if you go far enough. Then you will be ready for springs. They are so cheap and easy to do though its hard to see why anyone would want to wait.

@toetapaudio- Are you using slate on top of the springs as a platform for the roller bearings which either support the component directly or through another shiny surface that allows the most free movement of the component?
Are you using marble on top of the Ingress roller bearings? If yes then did you face any ringing issues?
Thanks.

Millercarbon, glue an accelerometer to you garage floor and record its output while you start up your car, rev the engine and drive in and out. Please tell us what you get!

what you get is a vehicle suspended on... wait for it...springs! And tires, with rubberized engine mounts (some are even active), and you probably get almost no vibration?
Am I close?

Okay, I’ll admit I am being cheeky, please forgive me. I know, I know, smart alec post. Just shake your head an smile, I mean you no injury.

Perhaps try a block of wood (to protect the concrete) planted firmly on the concrete and give it a good tap with a hammer?

Actually all concrete does is alter, not eliminate, vibration.

First up, my concrete is a fully sunken basement. Dead as a mountain. It’s not a suspended concrete/rebar floor where I can imagine some vibrations. However, there is NO comparison with my basement and a suspended wooden floor and more importantly, wood/sheetrock walls.

Mijo
To be fair we could be talking about two different types of concrete floor here.

You have the solid concrete floor like mine that is sitting on bedrock stones, dirt, whatever etc.
Then you have the concrete floor that is a platform so to speak and is suspended.
See link just as a FYI.

https://thermohouse.co.uk/blog/suspended-floors/

You will get two different results from the two different types of concrete floor.

The only thing a concrete floor does not isolate you from is an earthquake. None of our systems have enough power to move something as heavy and stiff as a concrete floor not to mention it is sitting on compacted stone dust. 
Millercarbon, glue an accelerometer to you garage floor and record its output while you start up your car, rev the engine and drive in and out. Please tell us what you get!
What I see here is a lot of wishful thinking without any science to back it up.  

Try combining NobSound, FOS or MD springs with Ingress cup and rollers to obtain greater freedom of movement in the radial and horizontal planes. You may have to use a transitional platform of a suitable material between the two different components in order to get stability. I have found slate to be good but there may be other materials that work in your system. 

You're welcome. And good to know. But I was talking about the spring setup mitch2 is using on his system page.

@millercarbon- I haven't used springs with any end caps or jackets. Those items add damping to the springs and sometimes it could be a good thing if the springs are very bouncy which adds a little ringing to the sound. But too much of damping is bad for isolation and also for the sound.
That is the reason why I don't use the black rubber mat on the Nobsound aluminum disc. In my system using Nobsound w/o rubber mats produces much open/better sound.
I wanted the jacket because my springs are all softer springs with a very low spring rate. Some of them are wobbly enough to cause twisting/deformation under the load. If the spring movement is not free then that works as a damping factor and I wanted to have the jacket to eliminate it to whatever extent possible and measure the performance.
Thanks

I like the modular design. Springs can be used with/without the bellows and end caps. Curious if you tried them different ways?

@mitch2- I saw the pictures of the springs that you are using. Quite impressive!!! Where did you get the end caps and also the rubber cover for those springs? I wanted to use it for my springs and appreciate your feedback/help.
Thanks.

Actually all concrete does is alter, not eliminate, vibration. 

I'll get around to shoring up under things. Its on the list. But its a long list. Still need to finish the Spring Thing, add springs under the rest of the subs, and amps, and suspend a few more things.  

For now my system sounds so freaking insanely good its hard to do anything but just listen and try not to gape and drool.

@noromance- That is very true for a concrete floor...While it doesn't absorb all the seismic vibration issues but it allows these tools to work optimally relatively easily. You are one of the lucky folks to have the advantage of a concrete floor and can focus more on the music....
Thanks.

...have you shored up, or propped up under your floor where the springs are yet?

A room on a suspended floor versus a concrete floor can only throw up so many issues around vibration and resonance, I can't imagine how I'd go about trying to fix all of them! Starting from a concrete room allows me get past all of that. Consequently, my system is very responsive to small changes and tweaks. 

millercarbon - now you can see why Townshend calls it seismic isolation!
I am glad you were willing to try it, to discover it for yourself.

And the springs on your wooden floors might be about the same as suspending the cables, have you shored up, or propped up under your floor where the springs are yet? Because if you have not, I wager money on it, there's more in store for you yet.

indranil,
another way you could try is to get the number of springs you have (hoping four?) under a heavy shelf, larger than the base of the TT you are using. Get the shelf completely horizontal, buy starting from the furthest edges of the shelf that will accommodate the leveling, moving the springs to suit under the shelf, creating the broadest sprung base. Now find where the TT with a record in it will sit on your shelf where that position will make the entire shelf and TT horizontal. Hopefully the center of gravity off the TT will align with the centre of gravity of the shelf in a vertical alignment.

Mitch, if you hear a difference you are blessed. Set up your system any way you want. 

Millercarbon, I have done that experiment with a tube phono stage, an oscilloscope and a test record. There was no difference to either my ears or the oscilloscope trace at any frequency. As for my speakers? My subs weight 250 lb each and I have 4 of them. My speakers are 7"11" tall and my ceiling is 8" so putting anything under them is a non starter. The subs are so heavy and stiff that they do not vibrate. I have Vinyl and CD sets on display right on top of them.  Trying to isolate a subwoofer is beyond silliness. When bass is produced by a powerful system capable of going flat down to 18 Hz the entire house vibrates isolated or not. Put on a 30 Hz test tone and turn up the volume. If you have a decent system everything in the house will start buzzing. Any movement of the subwoofer itself creates distortion. Mine don't move because they are so heavy and they are spiked to the floor. The stuff on top of them doesn't even move including my Mo Fi Beatles set. But turn em up and the entire house buzzes. If you think you hear an improvement in your bass by putting your speakers on springs it is purely psychological or perhaps your speakers sound better just because they are up higher. So get yourself a nice looking set of speaker stands. But, subwoofers to perform their best need to be right on the floor up against a wall or in a corner. They gain up to 6 dB in efficiency this way and eliminate the first reflection entirely, improving bass throughout the room. 

Millercarbon, with all the neat improvements you have made you must have one heck of a system. 

@millercarbon- Great idea and very easy to implement. I would try and report back the result.
Thanks.

indrenilsen and mitch2,
Rubber bands under cables work about as well as springs under components. I stretched a rubber band around a Cable Elevator so the cable sits on the rubber band. Its hard get a good camera angle to show this but that's what's going on here. https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/8367 Tried first under speaker cables, then power cords and interconnects. Was expecting improvement under speaker cables and was not disappointed. Wasn't expecting nearly so much under power cords and interconnect and so was surprised when it was just about equally effective.

Everyone has rubber bands just sitting around. Give em a try and see.

Pretty sure Mike hasn't tried it. Huge amount of debate evaporates the instant things go from being talked about to tried.

@millercarbon , I started my spring journey a couple of weeks ago and now have most of my system on various springs.  I have experimented with different sizes and stiffness of individual springs instead of going the Nobsound route.  Although, it didn't always turn out as I envisioned with regards to which springs worked best with which components and speakers, I now have two heavy monoblocks, two heavy subs, and my two heavy main speakers all on appropriately sized springs, as well as most of my front end electronic components (but I need another set of low load springs to finish with my entire system).  I hear the sonic changes/improvements that you described in your post below, which is why I am curious about the comment by @mijostyn .

@millercarbon- The debate between coupling i.e cones and isolation i.e spring/air/magnet/etc as an effective vibration measure will perhaps continue for ever. However I have moved from using Mapleshade brass cones under every component to spring/air isolation and couldn't be happier. Beside the positive impact what I love the most here is the consistency of these tools. They all sound very similar if not the same every-time I use them under any component, unlike brass footers.
Thanks.

mitch2, The steel man argument for coupling is the speaker is vibrating and we want to hold it rigid to get the cleanest most dynamic signal for the greatest detail possible. So clamp it to the floor, especially if concrete, so it won’t move.

This works pretty good and in fact is what I did for years until learning it really doesn’t work that way after all. The speaker does vibrate, and no matter how massive or rigid so does the floor. It would have to, since otherwise if it didn’t move at all then all the energy from the speaker would reflect right back up the way all waves do. So the speaker is gonna vibrate no matter what. The question is how much and in what way.

Putting the speaker on springs allows the speaker to vibrate more freely and more independently from the floor. Nothing is ever truly isolated but this is a lot closer to isolated than coupled. As such a small amount of sonic energy is lost to the speaker moving more because its not supported so rigidly. But also it is moving a lot less because it is now decoupled from the floor. Even a concrete floor still vibrates, just at a different frequency and amplitude than wood. Speakers on springs excite the floor much less. Equally important, floor vibrations affect the speaker much less.

It hard to argue one over the other, but real easy to demonstrate in practice. The easiest way is to get the Nobsound springs off eBay for $35. These are adjustable for load to work under just about any speaker or component. Or you could buy some plain old springs for even less. Then try them and see.

When I did this it was pretty surprising just how much better springs are even compared to very good Cones. The proof of how they work is when used under subs. Putting them under subs not only improved the bass, it had equally as big an effect on midrange. How? Subs put out zero midrange. But subs energize the floor, the floor vibrates, vibrations reach the other components. The ear is much more sensitive to midrange details than bass. So putting springs under the subs cleaned up the midrange.

The difference is easy and obvious to hear. Try it and see.

@mijostyn 

in that situation the springs are not isolating the speakers or the floor from anything

I am interested - please explain further since the springs would be between the speaker and the floor.

Bobby1945, in that situation the springs are not isolating the speakers or the floor from anything. It is a concrete floor. The speakers should be solidly on the floor with the midrange drivers at ear level by whatever means looks best to you. It is almost a purely cosmetic decision. 

I have Elac Navis ARB-51 active speakers mounted on standard sand ballasted speaker stands.
The speakers are currently just "sitting' on the stands.
If I pursue  Nobsound spring isolation, I propose to use a granite platform supported by the isolators off a tiled concrete floor and rigidly fix the speakers to the stands , which are in turn spiked on the granite.
Are there any flaws in this set up?  
Thank You

@mijostyn- Thanks for your such a thoughtful response. In my experience the isolation set-up process always is a precision job regardless of the component being a turntable or not and it takes a good amount of time. I would rather spend that time listening to the music... 
For me taking turntable to a different room would be a lot harder option and even then I have to isolate it to get the best performance. So I am exploring other options like isolation platforms, wall mounting etc. Currently I have a Clearaudio turntable and a Luxman phono amplifier. Going forward I would be likely getting a Acoustic Signature turntable which would be 3-4 times heavier than my current turntable. But that would happen only when I am able to get an isolation device, platform or footers, working to my satisfaction in my room. 
Thanks.

indranilson, you are certainly spending less than a MinuK platform which is no piece of cake to set up either. You have to move the turntable around on it to get it to balance right. Turntables never come with an arrow pointed at their center of mass.

There are racks like the Grand Prix Audio that isolate each shelf at a patently ridiculous price. IMHO, excepting the turntable, if you place all your equipment is separate enclosures isolating them from direct sound 
you are good to go. I do not like open racks. I prefer fully enclosed cabinets which are stiffer and easily damped. I do not put my equipment on display where it can collect dust. It is all hidden. Maybe I am just old fashioned 
 
The turntable being a vibration measurement device is another story. It has to be isolated from everything. I will never buy a turntable that is not suspended on an appropriate suspension.
The best thing to do is put your turntable in another room. Phono amps are now coming with balanced outputs that will make this much easier to do but most of us will not have that capability. 
The best way to shield the record, tonearm and cartridge from air born vibration is to cover the turntable during play, like putting ear muffs on.
My turntables have always sounded better with the dust cover down. The echo that you get with the dust cover up is an appealing euphoric distortion so, many are insistent that dust covers make things worse. Perhaps poorly designed ones do. But with my system people uniformly think it sounds better with the dust cover down.  

My experience is the adjustment is less difficult with some choices of music you know very well...

Choose violins solo and in mass.... For higher frequencies...

Choose brass ensemble with tuba, trombone, trumpet and horn... for the bass level...

for example : Empire Brass playing Gabrielli

Human voice solo is useful indeed .....

Always adjust in relation to timbre accuracy never in relation to clarity only  or bass....

@toetapaudio, @mijostyn, @mahgister- Thanks for your feedback. I will have to adjust the turntable feet height to make it 100% leveled. With springs underneath it sounds like another time-consuming adjustment work that I have to add to the mix....
I have worked with inner tubes, have the Ingress roller bearings to address the seismic vibration concern but what I have experienced is that it always comes down to this finer calibration/load adjustment factor which is very manual and very time consuming. You can easily spend hours without getting the desired results... I wish there are tools available in the market to complete this load adjustment step quickly and accurately. Yes I am familiar with Stacore platforms, another super expensive isolation solution but I doubt it comes with any load adjustment/calibration tool without which the total investment becomes worthless. Interestingly very few manufacturers talk about it let alone building it in their products.
I would love to get all my components isolated from the seismic vibration and I am ready to pay for a commercial solution but just not ready to make a huge investment yet spend hours in setting it up to get the maximum isolation.
What are your thoughts on this point?
Thanks.

I think that using prings under a turntable must be very delicate indeed.... And it is not the same at all than under speakers....

These nobsound MUST be adjusted near 1 % of optimal compression....For a turntable it is way much delicate and refine adjusment necessary even about the structural properties of springs themselves more than for speakers....

That explain some difficulties with springs under turntable....

Under my speakers they are fantastic at the express condition to be very adjusted.....You cannot do that in one or 2 trying....

Beware of much clarity in the sound....The first clue that all is OK come from a better timbre accuracy not clarity only.... I made this error the first listening, i concluded too early that all was ok.... I corrected the load a couple of times and when the tonal accuracy was there all was positive on all counts.... No trade-off....