Noromance, bad design for anything. If you could get them down to the right resonance frequency they would wobble all over the place. People were also discussing the use of springs under subwoofers and I expressed my opinion that it is not a good thing to do.
As far as Bass is concerned, everyone should have a pair of good head phones. Forget about the image but focus on the sound and detail. This is the bass you should hear out of your system ideally. Using a record with an acoustic bass solo to compare is ideal. If you like pushing the lower frequencies louder as a matter of taste well, that is up to you but you will sacrifice some detail.
Indranilsen, You have to level the turntable with a record on the platter and yes it always matters. Perhaps not as much with a pivoted arm as with a tangential tracker but still. You may also want to adjust the feet so they all bounce together if you can. Lock the tonearm in it's rest. Push the turntable down stretching all the springs to their limit and let go. The springs that bounce fastest are farthest away from the center of mass so move them a little closer to the center of the turntable. Try to adjust them so that they all bounce together at the same rate. The games we children play. |
Same here. Good one. Thanks! |
I would have to agree that I am pretty impressed with how well they seem to have worked under my 401.
And the large SQ change that was easily audible with just a simple spring configuration change.
Hard to complain at $33........
So many thanks indeed to Noromance for bringing this thread to the forum. |
You can throw those Nobsound springs away. Bad design Bad design for subs? They work great on my very heavy turntable. The thread is about springs under tuntables. Not subs! So in that context, the Nobsound springs work well. |
Indranilsen, exactly that is why you have to hang the mass from the springs vs placing the mass on the springs. This is what the Feet of Silence do and why they work so well. You ordered them just right for the lowest resonance Frequency and because of their design they are inherently stable. Great product. You can throw those Nobsound springs away. Bad design.
Rix, I build my own subs and have been through just about every permutation you can think of. Your opposing drivers (force cancelation) is a great way to go. But, as I said before it does not matter if you subs are spiked to the house or suspended. You can not keep the bass from getting to the house. Put on a 30 Hz test tone and walk around your house. Stuff in rooms on the far end of your house will be rattling. There is no way you can stop it all. IMHO spiking them to the floor is the best solution. Springing them will create a resonance peak unless you get the spring rate very high in which case you are doing nothing. You can not isolate your house from bass. |
Yes, Solid Tech gives more freedom of movement in the radial and horizontal planes than the NobSound on their own. You can combine NobSound with Ingress cup and ball supported on a suitable platform ( slate in my case but may be system dependant, worth experimenting with different materials) for better performance. Solid Tech, Townshend Pods, Geoff Kaits springs or kids tyre inner tube under inflated all good options to try under the platform. The Ingress cup and roller balls give you a very high degree of radial and horizontal freedom but couple in the vertical plane thus needing a spring of some kind for vertical isolation. I get extremely good results with this relatively inexpensive set up. If you can afford to spend more then take a look at Stacore Platforms. For a complete ready made solution at a reasonable cost it’s hard to beat the Townshend platforms particularly for turntables or where you use very stiff and/or heavy cables which can influence the performance of the Ingress cup and ball isolators.
Note, that if using cup and ball isolators like Ingress, it is most important to set them up in a perfect equilateral triangle on plan for best results. In some cases you may need to support the cables with sky hooks for example in order that they don’t interfere with movement.
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@rixthetrick- Good question on the money... If this technology which I don't think is a huge deal goes mass-market then these footers are not going to cost more than what Nobsound charges. But that will never be the case because there would always be a market in the audiophile community for every such product at every price point perhaps more than what I can even imagine.
What would really help me and perhaps others in such spring based isolator products are
1. These springs could be self twisted or adjusted for leveling and also for calibrating the desired spring rate. Townshend says that they have this feature but I am not sure...
2. There should be an indicator, may be a mark on the body of the spring indicating the 97-98% load such that you can calibrate the load very easily and accurately
3. The design should allow absolutely free movement of the springs in any direction
If there is one design point of Solid Tech feet that wins hands-down over Nobsound it would be the free movement of the spring (in any direction) w/o twisting or deforming it under the load.
Thanks.
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Cool! I'm glad it's working out bro. |
@slaw
Bass is probably one of the most personal details there is.
Everyone has their own idea of what is "right".
And that's all we can do, tune and tweak to our own satisfaction.
My meaning was that bass was reduced from previously where it was slightly overblown so it was a good thing.
Definitely a lot tighter all round in every aspect.
Pretty stoked for $33 so far! |
Indran.
I had exactly the same when I put the pods underneath.
Fortunately the rack it is on has adjustment at bottom for leg height so was able to get the TT level again.
Just don't look at the rack.....lol. |
Yes! IME, it matters greatly. With my latest wall decoupling system, I can actually hear if the tt gets off level. A wall system, no matter how great is dependent upon the expansion/contraction of the studs. I use a 10" Bosch level. A longer level will give a more accurate reading.
Generally, for a tt with a non-inverting bearing, one does a final level on the platter, on an inverting bearing, the final level is on the plinth. |
Hello,
When you guys put spring based isolation devices or any such floating devices do you ensure that the turntable is absolutely leveled? I use a circular level at the center of the platter to level the table. Normally w/o any footer my turntable is 100% leveled but with the springs underneath the table the most I can get is the bubble stay inside the circle but not as leveled as before. Does that even matter?
Thanks.
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@uberwaltz,
" some reduction in bass but it's generally tighter all around"
Bass is such a personal thing it seems. I'm a person who really pays attention to it. When I evaluate it in my system, I try to remember my live experiences, which are most always at a smaller venue.
We all have adjectives to describe it, but those are based on our on biases.
That's all....just food for thought.
Steve
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@indranilsen I got the delivery of Solid Tech Feet Of Silence footers this AM Indranil, you said that you thought the performance to investment wasn't as good as you'd hoped. Perhaps the price is higher than we experience from China, Sweden and Scandinavia in general is more expensive for everything (yes I've been). However if they actually have the engineering down to a fine art, and they work as well as you claim, how much would you have had to pay to upgrade to the same level with the device you are "floating" on them? To restate my question, how much money have they saved you to get the same level of quality sound if you hadn't as mahgister calls it, "embedded" with the feet of silence? They scream out, I'm sexy and I know it.. Well I don't know that, do you at least like the look of them? Haha, congrats on your investment mate. |
Unbelievable......
Simple change by going to one rear pod with three springs in sort of offset to left to take into account the motor weight.
Two pods at front with two springs mounted crosswise as MC suggested which is fairly stable.
High end details?
Now in spades!
Some reduction in bass but it's generally much tighter all round.
So obviously was not compressing the pods enough.
Most interesting and entertaining. |
Great work here on tuning these things. Definitely not a case of plop em down and all is well. Have tried half a dozen springs now, plus variations, all were much better in at least some ways but it takes some work to get the most out of them.
Rick did the hard work in the beginning figuring out what to use under the Moabs. He used math and physics but the rest of us can use what indranilsen is doing, seat of the ears, try and see.
The four Nobsound with 4 springs each under my turntable were under Round Things and above granite. Got the wild idea to flip two of them around, so from bottom up its granite, Round Thing, spring, Shelf. Lo and behold there was a nice improvement in midrange presence, treble extension, and a much greater sense of acoustic space!
Went back and sure enough the midrange was ever so slightly less clean and clear. So flipped the two back again. Then flipped a third, and finally a fourth. Was kind of afraid of getting too much top end or too lean bass but this never happened. Hate to say its like magic but it really is.
Maybe one of these younger people will come over and tell me its too much. I don’t know. Pretty sure my old ears top out at 12k, 15 maybe tops. But what I do hear, the ability to hear both the music and the acoustic space its in is just fantastic.
uberwaltz, when using just 2 its much more stable along the long axis between the two than crosswise. Each one by itself is quite wobbly. But try orienting them so they are all pointed to the center. That should be a lot more stable. |
@uberwaltz Not springs -pods.
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My two Martin Logan Depth i subs are made '6 sided' with 3 equally opposing 8" drivers, This, as stated above, eliminates almost all internal vibrations. Several months back I put Stillpoints SS feet under each sub directly to my sprung wooden floor and they made a substantial positive difference. I already had these on hand. I plan on trying springs there at some point, in no hurry though. |
As for subwoofers the trick is to give the driver a perfectly solid enclosure with an infinite mass. Not so easy. Put your hand on your subwoofer enclosure while playing something bass heavy. I have a pair of dual voice coil drivers firing opposed in a sealed cabinet (32mm or 1.26" thick MDF), with substantial bracing. The cabinet is not totally inert, however it is pretty decent. Though certainly no contest for my stand mounts with the steel plate lining it, also with cast iron braces, silicone filled hard drawn copper tubes and birch differential bracing. I have exposed the internals in my system page (the stand mounts, not the sub). Both lifting the sub an inch, and isolating it at approx >4-5Hz makes for significantly less energy to be injected into the floor, the walls, and everything else. It is an experiment worthy of the almost puny investment. You may very well be surprised if you were to experience it for yourself? |
The big problem with just two springs is that it's now like a bike, only support on two 180 degree opposed points.
You really need three or four to be stable.
Try supporting your amp with two points.
You get the picture.
Now four pods means yes you can do it but it is very wobbly as I said even with them being compressed. |
@mijostyn- I couldn't agree more on that 3hz isolation level. That is our target. However getting to that 3 hz natural frequency with compression springs needs a special focus on the load interms of weight & material that to me is the most difficult factor....That is where you are playing with balance, precision and the level of damping of the surface.
Thanks. |
@uberwaltz Try 3 Nobsound springs under the 401. 2 at front -the way I have them. Then 2 at back. Interesting upset in your result. Mine is the opposite with the mids projecting free of the speakers and the highs sparkling. Frankly, I thought my ESLs were tired in the treble. Until now. Lit up! |
Hello, I spent last night adjusting the load on Feet of Silence footers and got it to work. I am excited to report that the footfall issue with my turntable is now gone which I couldn't accomplish using the Nobsound discs. The soundstage has opened up quite a lot as expected with better imaging, depth and clarity. The speaker disappeared much better than it did before. So I am happy with its performance but not completely satisfied with the price to performance ratio. I will continue listening to this set-up to see if there is any change in the performance over time. I am not able to compare it with Nobsound discs because I was not able to get Nobsound springs work/eliminate footfall when placed under the turntable. However I have previously used Nobsound discs under heavier electronics and coming from that experience I can say that the Solid Tech feet of Silence footers do offer a much better performance. Better in terms of overall clarity, imaging and the speaker disappearing factor. As I mentioned before Solid Tech design being able to isolate in more than one dimension allowing smooth spring movement is expected to perform better but its price to performance ratio didn't impress me... In my experience, the spring based isolator performance regardless of its design/price depends on the load sitting on top of it. Utmost care should be taken to ensure that every spring is compressed to 97/98% of its max load. Without that sound could appear to be bloated, bass heavy and veiled besides surfacing footfall issue for few turntables. For Nobsound discs, I measured a set of 3 discs each having one spring can cary a max of 18.5 lbs (approx). So this configuration needs to be loaded with almost 18 lbs to be able to get to the desired isolation point. Each spring/disc should need just a slight finger touch (not press) to get to the bottom and you should hear two discs touching each other. Any further load, you are not going to get the real isolation benefit. What I have stated here is purely my experience and I am not trying prove any theory or point... @uberwaltz- What you are describing sounds like a less than optimal load situation with Nobsound springs. These springs are stiff and can take a lot of load. These discs can be used with one spring and hence your two spring per disc layout should work. You can refer to the following manual to see how a two spring layout could be implemented. https://www.audioadvisor.com/pdf/SolidTech_Isoclear_Application_Instructions.pdfIt is a Solid Tech manual but it works for Nobsound discs... Hope that helps. Thanks. |
If the resonance frequency of the sprung mass is higher than 20 hz the whole thing will vibrate at that frequency which will definitely do some interesting things to the bass. None of them good. The reason that you should set the springs below 3 hz is so you can't hear the suspension and anything that is happening in the room above 3 Hz. A good suspension should produce blacker backgrounds and isolate the turntable from foot falls and the kids hitting your equipment rack with a basketball. Otherwise it should do nothing to the sound. |
The most dramatic difference was under my Herron phono stage. This is with the extra springs removed from the set under the turntable. I cut some MDF pucks out with a hole saw, drilled out 1/8" deep holes 1/4" in diameter and stick em together just like Nobsound. Only mine are for just 3 springs per.
So I put three under the phono stage and the bass is off the charts deep and full, but the mods are too warm and the highs are gone. So I add one more and now the bass is just right, a little fuller than before but not exaggerated, the mids are nice and warm yet still detailed and the highs are almost as extended as they were before with BDR.
The stage is still on BDR Cones, Round Things, and Shelf. The springs replaced the BDR Cones that were under the Shelf. Will probably eventually try swapping, springs directly under the stage on top of BDR. But for now this really is a pretty sweet setup! |
Two springs does not work as it just wobbles like jelly...lol.
So went to one spring in center.
That compressed the pods too much so back to three.
Interesting experience. |
Nobsound springs arrived today ( day late).
Set up with just three springs in each pod and used four pods under the 401.
Checking compression and height of plinth it looks to be very even all round despite the fact that it has a pretty weighty motor at rearcenter left.
Immediate impression with an album I am familiar with is somewhat increased bass although possible it is a bit more muffled/ muddied.
But very early days yet.
Not sure as I would say I am noticing much more detail level increase but it’s certainly no worse.
Mids also feel a little fuller but again maybe not quite as "tight".
No other changes at this time like mats etc, just spring pods installed.
May set the other set of pods up with just two springs each and try that out.
My 401 is not as heavy as noromance and maybe need to compress these spring pods a bit more. |
Rix, a turntable suspension is just a simple mechanical filter. The trick is setting it up so it is stable. As for subwoofers the trick is to give the driver a perfectly solid enclosure with an infinite mass. Not so easy. Put your hand on your subwoofer enclosure while playing something bass heavy.
Any fibration you feel is distortion. That vibration is either from the enclosure walls moving or the entire subwoofer moving. In most cases it is both. Ideally you should feel nothing. You can not isolate a subwoofer from the house. Bass is insanely powerful. Put on a 30 Hz test tone and turn up the volume. Your entire house will sing at 30 Hz, glasses, plates, pictures, the walls, your teeth, everything. Fortunately for us our brains can only pay attention to the loudest noise. With music and the satellites running you can't hear it. If you don't want to hear your car rattle, turn up the radio. The medical term for this is "masking"
I had an older S5 V8 with a manual. It was hands down the prettiest car Audi ever made and a very satisfactory daily driver. |
@indranilsen Hopefully they'll sound better tomorrow. Thing is, they are a lot more expensive compared to the Nobsound at $35. How do they compare to them? |
Hello,
I got the delivery of Solid Tech Feet Of Silence footers this AM. The delivery was lickety spilt, all the way from Sweeden and I didn't have to pay any Customs duty for this purchase. The footer design was excellent ad it does move in all directions as advertised. I have just installed three footers underneath my Clearaudio turnable and listened to it. The sound was ok without much adjustment. I have to do the load adjustment tomorrow, which is really the key and see if it addresses the footfall issue. If it does then I have found a commercially made spring isolator which isolates above 2-3 hz at least in the vertical direction. I would keep you all in the loop,
Thanks. |
@mijostyn -
If you like old sports cars you will love Vinyl. If you only drive Audi's stick with digital.
I want to buy an S5. For real. Isolating a TT with a wood peer and beam construction would be a daunting task for me. Most of my experience with isolation was from work and at a loudspeaker factory in Australia. Where my former employer sells speakers with spring isolation built in as standard feature. I have since done quite a bit with various subs and speakers etc. I am fully out of my depth with TT isolation I am afraid. I did mention isolating the loudspeakers which I do have experience in, because I would assume a non isolated TT would certainly receive energy from a full range loudspeaker through the floor. The hardcore mad scientists like noromance and mahgister for example who just dang well give it a red hot go, inspire me too. |
mijostynUberwaltz,
you REALLY need a Schroder CB on your Avid ... It is the most
perfectly designed pivoted tonearm in existence It is? Do you own one? Have your heard one? Tell us more. |
@mads I was also looking at trying the custom made feet from these guys, Stick with springs. Sorbothane has a bad rap for sound quality! |
Mijo
I have looked at the Schroeder CB arm before.
However...$5k....
A wee bit more than I was thinking of spending. |
Then I did not present it correctly, my fault. If I had an EM I would not let anybody near it either:)
Uberwaltz, you REALLY need a Schroder CB on your Avid. Your other turntables will become conversation pieces. It would be very expensive to make a better record playing device. With the different weight cartridge mounting plates you can put just about any cartridge on it. It is the most perfectly designed pivoted tonearm in existence. "Rank Amateur"? Surely you jest.
rixthetrick, Whether or not vinyl sounds better than digital depends almost entirely on the way the music was mastered. An album mastered for digital is very hard to beat. But there are masters that sound better in their vinyl versions. I can only guess but I would say off hand it is about 50/50. Vinyl requires more effort, space and mechanical aptitude. If you like old sports cars you will love Vinyl. If you only drive Audi's stick with digital.
If you have wood floors this is a very important thread. There are many audiophiles who have to walk around on tip toe while playing a record. Because of anti skate if the stylus loses contact with the groove the arm will skip backwards. In some houses this can happen with every step.
A turntable that is suspended correctly will not skip at all. Examples of properly suspended tables would be the Sota, SME, Basis, Dohmann and I believe the Avid Acutus. Sorry if I missed any. The Sota's certainly represent the best value. I can hit a Sota with a hammer and you will not hear it through the system.
You can not believe the amount of noise and vibration that travels through a house. The term used was house rumble. The washing machine, various transformers, fans, plumbing, the truck traveling down your street.
A turntable is a very sensitive vibration measuring device. With a suspension tuned to 2 Hz the only vibration that will get through to the cartridge is you picking up the turntable and dropping it on the floor.
This is only one aspect of turntable performance. As uberwaltz related, this is one very deep rabbit hole. Try starting a thread on Direct vs Belt drive and see what happens:) |
Mijo, No argument here on the necessity for stabilizing an EM, but you previously intimated that this was necessary because of optical requirements. Anyway, this is off topic, and I just wanted to be clear. I used to have an EM, and a person to run it, as part of my lab. She wouldn't let anyone get even close to "her" machine.
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Rick
Not wishing to hijack this spring thread but I am a rank amateur on vinyl compared to some of our more long term esteemed members here.
I have picked up a lot of information from those guys on these hallowed pages!
One word of warning, it is a very deep dark rabbit hole.....lol.
But quite simply the MA505LS( long series) is an 11" arm whereas the RB303 is a 9" arm so would need a different armboard to even think of trying that on the Avid.
But I probably never would as the 401 and MA505LS are both nice vintage pieces and belong together.
Now back to springs, mine are out for delivery today! |
Thank you for the kind words.
I wasn't even being kind really, just calling it as I saw it. I thought just from the photos you'd put in some decent effort, now after reading just about the mods on just the turntables, there's an unseen iceberg of mods. And perhaps lead weights :-) Almost don't want to know about vinyl, it's expensive to get into from where I am. But I am so curious, probably can't help myself, I'm going to have to make an opportunity to hear it. Can you or have you ever swapped the arm off the 401 to the Avid? My hifi knowledge is limited to a few things I've actually worked on, it was a fun way to make a living. I'm making better money now, and can buy better toys. Thanks uber, this is an area where I know virtually nothing. |
Hey Rick
Thank you for the kind words.
Three TT is definitely overkill but you only live once...lol
The clear acrylic platter on the Rega is an aftermarket one by Deep Groove, metal sub platter and Zaphire bearing. The original Rega plinth was sandwiched between two slabs of MDF and then Walnut veneer over the top. Different motor and an IEC receptacle in back to take any PC, tonearm rewired with Cardas and terminated with a din plug underneath.
Yep its been hot rodded. and now it is set up as a mono TT with 2M Mono cart.
The 401 is in a substantial plinth with curly maple top ala the best guitars, lol. I modded the platter to add extra weight with stick on car wheel weights underneath it, added 2lb total. Micro Seiki MA505LS arm in immaculate fully functioning form.
The Avid is a very nice belt drive deck with outboard speed controller but stock with Rega RB303 arm and I honestly think it deserves a better one.
Favourite?
Very close call between the 401 and the Avid which is more likely choice of carts than anything else.
The 401 being idler drive always gives me the impression of more drive and dynamics and feel of life to the music, certain less charitable members here just say thats the rumble from the drive.
Whatever, they may be right but I do not care.
The Avid does indeed have very detailed highs and mids but seems to lose that certain something in "soul" of the music. It is possible a better arm would change the pecking order, oh well its only money! |
So much good information, what a great thread. I especially appreciate input from all those with experiences good and bad.
lewm, yeah you've already explained that yours are immune from the effects of vibration. Your objections are noted and I hear you.
@uberwaltz - I've looked at your system page before, impressive mate.
I gotta say, I just love that white translucent platter (I think it's called that?) and the Avid looks super cool. Which of the three is your favorite TT, and why if you don't mind?
I haven't been brave enough (and the opportunity hasn't presented itself) to hear a well sorted vinyl system yet - it might ruin me on digital.
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@mads1,
Looked at the link you provided. I'd stay away from rubber or sorbothane if I were you. |
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Yes Lewm, but they can not see Sh-t if the specimen is not held perfectly still, a mechanical issue. |
Different is easy. Better? Not so much.
@neonknight Agreed. However, we're long enough in the game to know when something is an improvement and to also call out any negative considerations when they arise. |
Electron microscopes are electronic.At present there is no way to visualize biological molecules using only visible spectrum light microscopy, although there have lately been some tremendous advances in that science too. |
I keep indeed my springs isolated from the floor(in my case my desk) with my "sandwiches( quartz feet, 2 grannite plates with sorbothane duro 70 in betwween and cork plate and bamboo plate)..
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Friend of mine says
Different is easy. Better? Not so much.
Might apply to many of the observations I read above. Engineering a comprehensive spring suspension is not as simple as balancing a turntable on some pods. |
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@frogman When you say a Target shelf, do you mean the brand?
I have found that for the springs to correctly isolate the loaded mass, that substrate needs to be unyielding, well as much as possible.
In a situation where the structure under the springs is prone to vibrate due to materials, geometry, etc. I have no doubt at all that it could be accentuated by the springs the effect like cars and trucks creating corrugations in a road, where the specific frequency is made worse.
I have absolutely no doubt that what you claim happened.
Using springs for isolation requires planning and some knowledge.
mahgister, yeah tuning with mass, great idea - just like derekw_hawaii suggests. If you can't get the perfect springs, get the perfect load.
And I suggest, try to shore up the substrate under the springs?
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