Tekton Double Impacts
Hi Bullitt, I very much appreciate your time in posting listening impressions of the 3 components . The Lyngdorf 2170 definitely seems to be an excellent audio product based on both excellent engineering and implementation. Given what others have said regarding it I’m somewhat surprised that you prefer its sound without the room correction function activated. I’m glad you have discovered such a superb match for your system. Congratulations. Charles |
Hi Bullitt, You have no more or "less" clout than any one else posting on this thread. Many contributors here and each with an individual opinion/perspective to share. There is never going to be general consensus on anything here (other than the DI is a very good speaker). That’s the beauty of it all in my opinion. Keep posting 😊 Charles |
Hi Bullitt, Like david_ten, wondering what specific sound qualities you noted in this comparison. Also, when you listened in the corrected vs. uncorrected comparison, did you change your speaker position? A bit surprised you were reluctant to post--I think most of us really enjoy reading what others enjoy with their DI's. Oh, there have been a few cranky posts but far far more civil and helpful ones. Thanks for posting and look forward to a few more details. |
@don_1 Maggies will always be a speaker that I'm fond of. They occupy a very special place in the history of audio IMO. Good old American ingenuity--a great product at a very good price. But another great American value would be the Tekton DI's. A performance/price ratio that is at the 99th percentile. So 8 months later have I ever regretted parting with my 1.7's. Not really. I mean we all like certain speakers for certain music so it would always be nice to give another listen. But if I could only have one speaker, with no regret I will happily continue enjoying my DI's. For me it just does more things right. |
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Well, I have completed the upgrade of my Tekton DI speakers. I purchased them used and they came with the $300 upgrade package. Before my upgrade I preferred my heavily modified Acoustic Zen Crescendo speakers. The Crescendo speakers had more bloom, sonic beauty and what I call refined maturity. I had to decide if I should just sell the DI speakers or take a chance on upgrading them and hopefully loving the outcome. I decided the “bones” of the DI design was so good that I could extract better performance in the areas important to me. I wanted more body, bloom, refinement and bass. I desired more meat on the bones and no hint of thinness at all. I wanted the upper mids presented with a tad more harmonic richness, bloom and flesh. Make no mistake, the DI speaker is a fantastic speaker as is....period. However, this fantastic speaker needed to better suit me in the areas listed above. I love the dynamic impact and resolution of the speaker and really saw huge potential in these gems. So I sold my AZ speakers and started this 40 hour project that I will outline for all here. Please know that I use a Lyngdorf 2170 and to my ears it has outperformed every other “system” I have had in my home. The 2170 is a system and works magically with the DI speaker. The combo is very, very special. I can confidently say the DI speaker will sound exactly as the builder intended with the 2170 in your listening space. After some 40 hours of work and $1800, I can emphatically state the DI speaker, in my home, outperforms every speaker I have owned including my beloved AZ Crescendo speakers. They best my Crescendo speakers in every sonic attribute I can think of post upgrade. So what was done to the mighty Tekton? I did what each and every owner has been talking about in this thread. These speakers reveal what’s ahead of them and any small change is easily noticed and appreciated. Folks here are spending good money on amps, preamps, dacs and wire to extract nice gains in sound. The first place to look, in my DIY opinion, is under the hood of the DI speaker. These parts are greatly impacting performance folks. They, like all things, can make a big difference as the DI speaker will reveal their shortcomings or greatness. Yes, just like a nice amp......only far more so. Your DI speaker use electrolytic capacitors in key crossover positions and are certainly keeping these speakers from sounding their best. Positions such as in series with the all important 6.5 inch midrange drivers. In a very important shunt position impacting the signal being sent to the outer ring 6 tweeters down the line. Sand cast resistors in series with the all important tweeter array. These are noisy and not as refined sounding as a good quality Mills MRA or Path Audio resistor. The internal wire is ok, nothing special. This speaker is the single best candidate I have run across for some DIY TLC. Eric’s design is amazing and brilliant. He really has no choice but to use electrolytic caps due to space and cost constraints that are real and understandable. The 220uf cap in series to the midrange drivers and the 68uf shunt cap just before the array are such big value caps that replacing them with film will cost a lot of money and take up a great deal of space. I had to place the highs/mids XO board externally as the capacitors were so large. The original board is just behind the tweeter array and 6.5 inch drivers. No way the new board would fit there or even in the bass cavity. Placing it in the bass cavity would stuff that area with too many parts reducing the internal bass cab space and exposing the XO components to too much vibration. The link below is chock full of pictures of the upgrade and includes a diagram of the crossover network in my particular set of speakers. My set used different cap and resistor values compared to a set made several months earlier.My set also contained an additional inductor on the tweeter array not found in other DI speakers. Bottom line is your set may or may not match mine. These seem to be undergoing continual fine tuning which is somewhat understandable. The top three tweeters are connected to the bottom three in series and out of phase. In my set some of the outer ring 6 tweeters-play slightly differing frequency loads. This was not true of another set made a couple of months earlier. I love the sound of the XO design in my set and the upgrade results are stellar. Here is a parts list of the upgrade. The diagram included in the link below clearly shows where the parts go. You can certainly choose different parts and get amazing results. These parts were chosen to stay within budget and deliver the results I wanted. New drivers. (These were purchased from Parts Express on sale and the driver baskets were damped with two layers of Soundcoat damping sheets available at Sound Craft. The pictures show this step. Eminence Beta 10a woofers Eminence Beta 6a 6.5 inch midrange drivers Wire, I used over 60 meters of Duelund stranded copper wire in oil impregnated cotton. 16 gauge on the woofers and mids and 20 gauge on the tweeter array. The speakers are tall and the XO board located externally, thus over 60 meters of wire was needed. The drivers are not wired in a daisy chain manner, but rather each 6.5 inch and 10 inch woofer are wired individually to the XO board. The builder did this right, but more wire is needed. Crossover parts, 220uf cap - 3 Mundorf Evo Oil caps in parallel (100uf, 100uf, 22uf). These are 3 inches tall and expensive. This is the money cap position folks. This is a large value cap that is very important as it is in series with the 6.5 inch drivers. Money is required here to make these speakers sing more beautifully. Sonic Craft is the place to buy these. 68uf cap - two 34uf Sonic Craft Gen 1 capacitors in parallel. This is also a very important shunt cap position. Sonic Craft is where you buy these. 10 uf and 2.7uf capacitors in parallel and positioned in series with the 6 outer ring tweeters in the array. Here is where you need a good foil and paper cap to get the most resolution, rich tone, and refinement out of the tweeter array. Clarity PX caps were used here originally. They are average caps at best, but inexpensive and nothing special. I used a 10uf Jupiter HT flat stacked and Jantzen Superior Z 2.7uf cap here. The Jupiter caps can be purchased from Sonic Craft while the Jantzen from Parts Express. Jupiter round VT caps would also be perfect here. Resistors - two Path Audio 3 ohm resistors in parallel. Purchase these from Parts Connextion. They are the most neutral resistor I have heard and very quiet. You can also use Mills MRA for a tad more brilliance. These are also in series with the 6 outer ring tweeters. 1.5 uf cap - this cap is in series with the center tweeter handling the highest frequencies in the speaker - roughly 10k and over. I suggest a very good quality cap here such as Jupiter copper foil or Auydn True Copper. I used the Audyn. A Mundorf Supreme silver in oil would also work nicely here. Inductors - I used the original ones. I don’t have any way of measuring these for values and don’t know them. I asked Eric for the values and he has chosen not to respond. I will send them out for measuring if Tekton will not help. These are not nearly as important sonically as the caps, wire, and resistors however. Important, but less so than the other parts. I would not change these. If you want, I would avoid foil types as they are brighter and not the best choice for the DI speaker. Solen Perfect Lay would be my choice. They are the warmest and most inviting. I will update my diagram with inductor values once they are known. Cabinet dampening - the builder uses very little. I am sure he does this on purpose and their is really no right and wrong here. Over stuffing is wrong and should be avoided however. I opted to place open cell egg crate type foam behind the 6.5 inch and tweeter array drivers. In addition, no damping was originally placed on the back wall of the bass cab directly behind the woofers. I decided to place some to tame internal reflections coming back and out of the woofers. Bass crossover board - I replaced the 100uf electrolytic cap with a nice Mundorf MKP film cap. In addition, I replaced the sand-cast resistors with Mills MRA. The board still easily fit inside the cab...see pics. This upgrade is not for a novice as you will get lost a perhaps not be able to finish what you started. If you have experience, then you can opted to do any part of what you see here. All the upgrades make a nice positive improvement. I would start with replacing the electrolytic caps for sure. Go as far as you like because this speaker is worth it. The DI is am amazing design and one deserving of the very best parts and layout. Be sure to order parts all matched within a 1% tolerance. Be sure to use good silver solder from WBT or Mundorf. Place all the inductors 4 inches apart outside diameter to outside diameter. Twist all of the wire runs to the crossover to cancel out as much noise as possible. Have fun! Whatever you decide to do will be rewarded with sonic improvements as this speaker reveals it. My upgraded DI is obviously improved head to toe sonically. The bass is far better, harmonic richness and bloom in spades, better layering, greater resolution, more refined, smoother, and on and on....This is not a couple of percentage points of improvement, but rather another level of sonic wonder. Only 130 hours of break in thus far. This is a very special speaker. Copy and paste for pictures and diagram......The first few pics are original XO boards the rest are pretty self explanatory I hope 🙂 http://s1097.photobucket.com/user/grannyring1/slideshow/Tekton%20DI%20upgrade |
@grannyring awesome information. Thanks for sharing!! On the Lyngdorf questions... In my room, the 2170 sounds better corrected than uncorrected. But not by a lot. It may be that my room is pretty good anyway. This admission was hard for Wendy because she’s never liked any previous room/speaker correction. But in blind testing, she mostly chose the corrected but did go with uncorrected a couple of times. But never chose the LTA. And a couple of notes on the LTA comparison. At higher volume and higher dynamic music, the LTA fell way behind the 2170. Perhaps it was pushing the limits of its 12 watts. At one point with one of her favorite songs at higher volume Wendy said "I don’t know what that one is, but it has to go back". On low volume the 2170 was also much better. I was very surprised. Thought that would be where the LTA would shine. But the 2170 kept all it’s detail on the high end and even more so, the dynamics and tight bass on the low end. This effect was amplified in the room correction mode but was also true when uncorrected. Only with less dynamic music, and in the middle volume range, without the 2170 correction, did the LTA come close. Even then, it was never chosen. I did not know about the ZOTL 15. The 40 was out of my price range. I went with Mark’s recommendation on the amp configuration and was assured it would not be lacking for what I was intending with the DIs. I’ll also add I spoke to Kenny a couple of times, who owns a 40 and the 2170 and he told me the higher wattage wouldn’t help. On the listening impression question... I could line up a number of often used adjectives here, but really it came down to the 2170 just acted like a wire with gain. I could hear details I couldn’t hear with the others. Everything sounded very natural. I know, not normally a class D trait! It didn’t sound "digital" at all. I can, and have, listened to it for hours and it wasn’t fatiguing. And it sounded detailed and dynamic at even low levels. That just blew me away. And this was consistent with both Digital and Analog inputs. Now, when I first got it with no hours on it, it was awful. I was questioning Kenny’s take on it for a bit there. But after a couple of days of burn-in, it came into it’s own. If you hear it in a store, you’re cheating yourself. Complaints? It looks like a clock radio and the LTA stuff would be a conversation piece in comparison. You have to turn the volume knob A LOT to effect change. I’ve learned to just spin it now or use the remote. There is no rack-mount provision. You have to go through dealers. It’s made in Denmark. That’s really all I can come up with. Finally, I was not expecting this result. The only reason I tried it was due to Kenny’s and Bill’s feedback on it. But I’m certainly glad I did. For me, in my room, and my listening habits, it just works. I certainly don’t think that will be true for everyone. |
Bill, I know how much you enjoyed your AZ Crescendo post modification so this informs me as to how well the modified Double Impacts must sound to you. Your excellent and detailed description is a terrific guide for current and future DI owners who may want to venture down the speaker improvement pathway. Fabulous contribution from you. Charles |
Wow grannyring, thanks for such an informative and detailed post. You are giving me the motivation I need to try doing some of the mods to my DI's......especially since I'll have the DI SE's in case I screw up my DI's trying to mod them. Thank you so much for the detailed parts list and reasons for your changes. I wish I could find someone like you to hire to fully mod my DI's like you have. With bullit's, Kennys and grannyring's endorsement of the Lyngdorf it's a product I will definitely try out next year ( my audio budget is shot for this year!). It's a difficult product for me to wrap my head around as its hard to believe one small box could do so much......and do it so well. But then it's hard to believe the DI can sound so good for so little. To think having only a source, the Lyngdorf and DI's and have it produce amazing music, well, it baffles my mind. I need more components than that! Lol. It will be like my Bang & Olefsun system I had many moons ago, but better sounding. Thanks again gents for sharing. |
Sorry for the typos as I used voice activation on my iPad. Ugh! I also forgot to mention the external board will be placed in an attractive wood case in time. The Beta woofer with the upgraded board really improved the bass in my room. You may not need to change the already very good Eminence woofer in your rig. However, do change out the electrolytic cap! |
Corelli, the transducer centers are a 1.5ft from the side walls and 2.5ft from the rear wall. I didn't move them durning testing because I'm not going to move them when I listen. So that would be pointless. They are positioned in front of corner Bass traps that extend from just off the floor, almost to the ceiling. The rear wall is also treated with flat panels below the HT screen and stop about 4ft off the floor with the screen above that level. I also have bass traps in the rear room corners and additional absorption panels at most reflection points on the side walls. I actually had more absorption panels at one point, but with experimentation discovered imaging and depth was better with some of them removed. Evolvist heard the DIs in my room, but later posted he hadn’t hear the DIs in a treated room. All I can assume is he wasn’t impressed with my sound absorption efforts and didn’t feel it was a good sample. Hey, I do what I can. It sounds pretty good to me and looks good on a graph. Imaging is great with the correction on or off and not a real noticeable difference in the low end. Mostly it seems to improve the image depth placement and adds a bit of detail in the mids and highs. The big thing is, it made a huge difference when I tested it with my B&W 804s. It was like night/day on them and brought them much closer to the sound of the DIs. It was pretty impressive. I guess it makes sense that the better the speaker, the less correction it needs. And the worse the speaker, the more of a change you’ll notice. |
@grannyring How much better are the Eminence Beta 10a woofers and Eminence Beta 6a 6.5 inch midrange drivers compared to the stock drivers? I guess I asking if replacing them as a first step is worthwhile at all or doing you need all the other mods to hear improvement? What are the part numbers/name of the stock drivers anyway? |
I guess it makes sense that the better the speaker, the less correction it needs. And the worse the speaker, the more of a change you’ll notice.Not sure I agree with that. I think it depends on the design of the speaker. I had Dipoles and they actually were not designed to need a lot of room correction. My Electrons required much more room correction. Was the dipole speaker better than the Tekton? Not to me. |
I want to caution folks who want to plow ahead and do an upgrade. Please note I said my crossover may be different than your DI crossover based on others who have looked at their parts and values. You must take apart your set and see what is in there. The builder is indeed changing things with time. Dont just order the values I did as yours may be different. I had an additional inductor that another owner did not have on the array. His resistor and cap values were also different. Since we don’t know the coil values you may not be able to order the extra one you need to match my board. Understand what you have. Diagram it, plan, and plan some more. I think the earliest sets were changed to what I have. Did Eric change it more since August/Sept? Perhaps, I do not know. |
@porscheracer The builder uses custom Eminence drivers and impossible to know exactly what they are. The woofers in the early DI speakers were very similar, if not exactly the same as the Alpha Eminence woofers. However, my set, made in the end of August, used a different woofer that was deeper in dimension and over a pound heavier. Which woofers do you have? Impossible for me to know. The midrange drivers do appear appear to be the Eminence Alpha or very, very similar. The Beta mids have better specs, better power handling etc... I, like Kdude, just like the bass the Beta drivers deliver in the cabs. I think replacing the XO parts with better quality ones and perhaps better internal wiring is plenty without bothering to replace any of the good quality drivers. This will save you money and I give you the best bang for the dollar! |
@bullitt5094Nah, nothing like that. You're system sounded pretty stellar with your Schitt DAC and my AHB2 running in there. I know you had the bass traps in the corners, but I didn't know about reflection points, or the ceiling. I guess those are the art panels? Hell, don't you know that you're the reason that I got the DIs, because I had an inkling of what they could do? :-) So, when do I get to listen to your new rig? :-) |
@bullitt5094 On the Lyngdorf questions... Thanks for the excellent post and additional details. It was very helpful and what I was looking for when I asked for more information. Thank you! Just to clarify, even though you found the 2170 to sound better corrected you are still running it uncorrected? Is that correct? |
Room correction sounds much better on the 2170 in every single room and set up I have knowledge of with the 2170. Both Kdude and I have had numerous system and speakers reflect this reality. I suppose it’s possible to have a different experience as I have learned nothing is ever 100%. Never. I had light bass bass with the original woofers and XO parts, post upgrade all is great in the bass area with room correction. At least this happened in my room. |
This is an open question to all.... From the history in this thread I see a strong group that prefers tubed components ahead of the Double Impacts. 'Thought leaders' have driven specific choices, for example LTA, among others. It appears that there is another group emerging that has walked away from tubes once they found the Lyngdorf (specifically, the TDAI 2170) to be an 'ideal' pairing for them -in- driving the Double Impacts. It is my guess that someone like Bill or Kenny would not have done so lightly or without a thorough evaluation (and now Bob as well; though I think Bill was driving the AZs prior to). I'm curious as to what the reasons for this are? Aside from the stated synergy and preferences, what else might be going on? Thoughts..... |
David ten , I just got my tekton monitor, they were paired with parasound ss at RMAF it’s was match made in heaven, since I have the Plinius SA100 , iam excited to try the tekton with the sa 100, I just got my monitor yesterday they are hook up with my tube viva 300B ..will try after 100hrs...with my plinius ..my reason for trying my plinius,I have a feeling tekton monitor will benefit from more power....maybe DI owners feel the same.... |
@david_ten I am actually running it in the room correction/focus mode all of the time. It sounds better corrected. In addition, you can have two speaker correction files stored. I have one file for the DIs alone, and another for the DIs with my subwoofer on line. But all testing was done without the subwoofer. The 2170 really does a good job incorporating the sub with the mains using it’s correction. Something that was going to be difficult to do with the LTA or even the Odyssey without throwing something else with a crossover function into the signal path. And as far as groups embracing different technologies... I really didn't care. I just picked the one that sounded the best to my wife and me. If wanted to pick "cool" I'd have gone with the LTA. If I wanted to pick "big and impressive" I would have picked the Odyssey stuff. But I picked the totally unimpressive class D clock radio instead. But again, that's just me. I am not in any way saying there is anything wrong with the other technologies. If you like it and enjoy it, and don't think what I chose is the best, that is absolutely all right. Keep an open mind and follow your ears. |
@bullitt5094 Bob, thanks for the clarification. When I read your first major post on the Lyngdorf it read, at least to me, that you preferred the 2170 with the room correction off...which is what prompted my confusion and therefore my questions. To my eyes, the TDAI 2170 looks very nice. I appreciate the Danish understatement and minimalism and functionality all well displayed in one box. |
David ten modifications is nice..only if done right...I have five sets of amps 2 tubes viva 300b, art audio concierto, 2mono Mf 550, Norh mono 200 mono, as well, so for now they are giving my expensive speakers a fight out of the box...so hopefully one of the amps will give more magic,,,will see...and no mod needed I like them the way it is... |
While I'm loving the sound of my DI's driven with tubes and will most likely stick with them for a while, the simplistic all in one Lyngdorf solution is so very intriguing. I also appreciate its understated design. It's something I definitely need to try in my system. Grannyring's system with his modded DI's and Lyngdorf sounds like a steal.....offering state of the art sound for a total cost of less than $10k plus a source? What are most of you Lyngdorf users using as a source? Anyone using the Lyngdorf cd transport? While ive gone the tube route, I appreciate hearing the good results others are having with SS or SS with tubes. It's great having so many viable options. Thanks to grannyring I've been bitten by the diy bug now! It may take me months to properly research and plan but I'm thinking I'll be re-doing the crossovers and internal wiring on my DI SE's eventually. Question for grannyring, Tekton used to offer Mundorf silver oil caps as an upgrade, if I can get my DI SE's upgraded with them do you think it will be a decent improvement? It might help tide me over until I figure out and develop the confidence I need to mod them. Thanks, Tom |
With many well respected members choosing the Lyngdorf system approach, I would appreciate knowing the type of room environments the Lyngdorf entered. Is your room dedicated to audio, or multi purpose? Professional, or custom room acoustics or standard room furnishings, and if room acoustics to what extent? Is your room a simpler to control rectangular room or complicated dimensions with staircases, and multiple rooms? And, prior to Lyngdorf were poor reflective materials such as glass minimized to improve the environment? LP |
My room is a HT with bass traps and some absorption on the front wall. I put additional panels in the room in "traditional" locations. First reflections, etc. But it worked better without them. As stated earlier, my DIs are near the corners in front of bass traps. All this done prior to testing the Lyngdorf. The room is rectangular with a sloping, peaked ceiling and a ceiling drop at the rear where the projector is mounted. Lyngdorf actually recommends you place your speakers in corners and the sub centered against the front wall and then use RoomPerfect to make it work. Perfect for me with my HT setup. My main source is my PC Music server feeding USB to the 2170 optional USB module. The signal path is deathly quiet. The LTA was almost as quiet. The Odyssey was noisy as hell in comparison to either of those. I was told that was normal for their products. Even my Denon HT Receiver made less noise than the Odyssey stuff. |
evolvist, of course you're welcome to come by. I got the impression you had auditioned the Lyngdorf and didn't like it. But if you want to hear it with the DIs, that's great. I also have absorption panels we can play with in the room if you want to do that. I don't think we could do the ceiling would need some velcro up there :-) is going to happen, but floor/walls would be no problem. |
