Tekton Double Impacts

Hi Al, 

The amp you sent the specs on is the same MKII version but Triode told me the input impedance is 220K. They said they can make it 100K but it would hurt the bass.

The Truth recommends 100K or more if I remember right.

Will that be a benefit for volume or other performance factors with a higher input impedance?

Thanks,
   LP

I am interested as well, EXCEPT there is no midrange dedicated driver, its all tweeters?  why?

Al,
I agree with you that the Truth isn't a passive in the strict sense of the term if it utilizes active circuitry. 
Charles 

No ripples Bullit just wanted you to know what others have actually heard with that specific amplifier and speaker match 😊
Charles 

@bullitt5094  Neo is still the one. No worries.

Or is it MZ2S and Triode2A3 are the one... : )

@kdude66   Kenny, hows your LTA experiment progressing? :)

Hey, I'm just repeating what I've read on the amp mfg web site and what Eric related to me. Didn't mean to cause ripple in the matrix.

Hi Al,

I just want to mention one thing that's kind of bizarre about the Truth. The volume control only goes to about 2:00. Until you get to about 10:00 you hear almost nothing. At noon it's to low for real listening and then begins to accelerate. Everything happens between 1 and 2 o'clock.
Very sensitive from like 1:30 going up. With that being said I never maxed out the volume.
Not sure if this comment is of any value pertaining to your comment of losing about 1 hour of volume.
And thank you for the effort you had to put in to help.

   LP

Hi Ipretiring, 
Gain is related to volume level potential.  The more sensitive your speakers (increasing db for a given output usually 1 watt@8 ohms) or sensitive the power amplifier  (the lower the value in volts the more sensitive). As sensitivity increases the "need" for gain decreases as it isn't required to obtain higher volume levels.  Al can explain it better 😊
Charles 

Hi Charles,

IMO a preamp having an active output stage but providing no gain should not be referred to as a passive preamp, but as you know terminology is often applied with varying degrees of looseness.

And btw, I would infer from the page I linked to that it probably also has an active input stage.

Best regards,
-- Al

Hi Al,
So although the Truth has an active output stage it’s still considered a passive preamplifier due to zero gain? Is this a "buffered" component?
Charles

Charles,
Thank you for a path to begin to figure this out. I will find out the gain of the amp.

What I don't understand is the relation between the 3 factors of wattage-sensitivity-gain as it applies to the pre amp amp and speaker.

I understand in general that a more sensitive speaker requires less power to reach certain decibel levels but then how does the gain of the pre amp and amp factor in? 

Does anyone wonder how I could have been involved in this hobby since the late 60's and understand so little?

 Please don't answer that last comment.

Bullitt

Triode Labs as far as I know is custom made only. He will build with 4 ohms no problem. But again as far as I know, no auditions, no returns. Ouch!

   LP

   

@lpretiring : You may want to check with @almarg before proceeding. Edit: See that @almarg has already responded.

P.S. to my previous post: If the following page corresponds to your Truth preamp, it has an active output stage which in terms of impedance should have no problem driving pretty much anything.

http://www.thehornshoppe.com/the_truth_pre_amp.html

Good luck. Regards,
-- Al

Hi Bullitt,
Your conclusion/speculation regarding the 2A3 Triode Labs amplifier and Double Impact pairing is interesting and the polar opposite of what Teajay achieved  in his main/reviewing system ("best combination yet in his system "). Another poster who visited and hear Teajay’s system with this combination said that the sound was fantastic. Their comments were posted earlier in this thread.
Charles

Lpretiring, if the specs on the 2A3 amp you would be purchasing correspond to those of the 3.5 watt SET amp described in this Triode Lab datasheet (which is indicated as providing 4 ohm output taps), it can be calculated from the 3.5 watt power capability and the 500 mv specified sensitivity that the gain of the amp to the 4 ohm tap is about 17.5 db. The sensitivity of the Electron is spec’d at 95 db/2.83 volts/1 meter, which given its 4 ohm impedance corresponds to 92 db/1 watt/1 meter.

So assuming these specs and those on your existing speakers are reasonably accurate (which is not always the case) you would gain about 5.5 db due to the speaker change and lose about 8.5 db due to the amp change, for a net loss in gain of about 3 db. Not a great deal, which on a typical rotary volume control, viewed as the face of a clock, corresponds to less than 1 hour of rotation.

Also, while I haven’t looked into the specs of the Truth, the 100K input impedance that is indicated for the amp on the datasheet I linked to should be a fine match for most and probably almost all passive preamps.

Good luck as you proceed. Regards,
-- Al

You may want to check to be sure the 2A3 will handle 4 ohms. It says 16 or 8 on their site and Eric doesn't like to build 8 ohm versions. He believes all his effort to build efficient speakers goes out the window with that version and if an amp won't handle 4 ohm, you need a different amp. His opinion, not mine.

II woul get in touch with Triode Labs and ask them how much gain does the 2A3 SET provide (knowing your current amplifier has 26 db as a reference). With the much more sensitive Tekton speaker you may be perfectly fine using the Truth.
Charles

milpai

Still "is" what?

I asked you a simple question about a previous post. 

Did you see a question or response or any comment to the post you made here on 7/19?

I don't. Do you?

@david_ten ,
Still is.
I was providing some advise on "passive preamps", which not many people use. So this was a helpful post. You have issues with helpful posts?

In my existing system which is powered by a BEL 1001, 26db (1 volt=50 watts) gain and the Truth, driving my Spendor SP-1's 86.5db sensitivity the last thing I would say is it needs more gain, dynamics, openness, or authority. 

So is the concern to drive the Electrons properly primarily one of gain, or does the smallish power output of the 2A3 factor into the potential problem as well?

Can this even be answered with this level of information available?

My best laid plan was to build my new system around the Truth and now along with the Electrons.

     LP

 

Two excellent products based on word of mouth , the Truth and the M2Z-S. Given the "many" exceptionally positive comments on the M2Z-S it seems like this is about a sure a bet as one could probably find. There appears to be much evidence to suggest that it is a superb active line stage. It is a question of is the additional gain needed in your system.

Another option to consider the Truth with the LTA ZOTL 40 a 40 watt el 34 based amplifier. Or for very similar cost the Line Magnetic 508ia which is a 40 watt 805 tube SET with the passive Truth. Of course it depends on the total gain provided by the respective power amplifiers. 
Charles

I believe the Electrons are slightly less sensitive than the DI's. Not sure if that will be of significance or not. I personally would go with the LTA MZ2-S, which is probably the most popularly satisfying preamp on this thread. Especially if I had a 2A3 amp in mind. I believe that teajay favored this particular combo over all others that he tried.

Schiit Audio Freya is a nice tube preamp with gain. It also has a passive mode and a JFET mode. Check it out. I love mine.

Milpai,

To clarify here is the quote from his e mail today.

"The Truth-it will be alright, my 2A3 will provide most of its gain and drive...the Truth will only be work as a volume control in the most neutral/accurate way, because its a passive design and does not +/- to the sound. It is better than most active circuited pre-amp-again, most are mid fi stuff only....and there is rarely a real high end tube preamp out there on the market we seen. But with a good tube preamp-you will get more power, and juice out more info/details-everything/every aspect will be better...."

I took it to mean that because of the low power of the amp and no gain of the Truth that it's just not going to be as good a combo as I envisioned.
Maybe I should be looking for a more powerful tube amp to get the most from the Electrons?

    LP

Milpai,

I ordered the Electrons yesterday, so I feel it will be about 3 weeks before they arrive. In talking to Eric about my desire to use a 3.5 watt 2A3 SET he said it would be no problem, but I forgot to mention the no gain Truth I use. He is very busy and it was hard for me to remember everything I wanted to tell him when pressed for time.
Today I will talking to Triode Labs about possibly building an amp for me, and he mentioned a really good pre-amp with gain would be a better match for my set up.
I only listen to redbook c.d. with a Musical Fidelity A-5

     LP

Welcome milpai

Is this thread not suspicious anymore?

Yesterday you posted: " I have not heard the Tektons, but that huge thread and the same people recommending the speakers over and over again is making me suspicious."

Called Tekton today. Eric was tied-up painting, but Karma tells me it looks good for my DI SE units to be built next week. That's the good news. The bad news is, the non-SE DIs I have now are broken-in and are really sounding great. I almost hate to send them back! But I'm sure the SEs will be worth the temporary step backward.

@lpretiring,
Have you listened to the Electrons in your system? Tektons are highly sensitive loudspeakers (at least from the specs on the site). You should have no problem driving these with your Truth. What is your "source"? I say this because even I have a passive and can easily drive my average sensitivity loudspeakers with the preamp.
What is your rest of the system?

Well after realizing that I have not bought a pair of speakers since 1990, I bought Tekton yesterday. I went against this current and chose the Electrons, because of size and weight even with some assurances that the D.I.'s would work in my 11X15X8 dedicated. 

And now some breaking news!  Eric told me when ordering that the Electrons now come with 8" bass drivers, no longer the 6.5". O.K. not earth shaking but it is fairly new information.

I went into this purchase with the understanding that I wanted to match an amp purchase with the Tektons too, and with opinions of people on this forum who I respect with way, way more knowledge than myself had helped me to decide on a 2A3 SET amp. The general consensus of this type of amps presentation coincided with my musical taste extremely well.

So now I should live happily ever after (at least in my audio world) right?
Wrong, now I have a problem that I learned today (isn't it the way things so often seem to go?) that my line stage which I am completely satisfied with which is a Truth with no gain at all will-might compromise the performance of this set up. 

Thoughts and possible directions from this group will be greatly appreciated.

       LP

In my room I found virtually no toe in to sound best. I only have my DI's 6' o.c. so that might lead to them not needing to be toe'd in. My listening position is 7.5' from the speakers and the speakers are about 5' out from the back wall and 4' in from the side walls. The DI's don't seem especially sensitive to room placement but fine tuning them and your listening position will pay definite dividends. In smaller rooms like mine room treatment played a bigger role in sound improvement than speaker position.....but both lead to better sound and we're all after that!

audionoobie,
someone in NJ has a brand new pair of DI’s FS on the Emotiva Forum-

" How much toe-in are you guys using?"-porscheracer

I talked to Eric about toe-in yesterday; he says toe them in

so the Speaker axis crosses 2-4 feet behind the listeners head (so there is an illusion that the inside front and back edges of the speaker appear to be about 1" wide, if you can picture that). At a listening position 8 ft. in front of the speakers, the axis should meet 10-12 ft. from the speakers.

pawsman

I will be taking my MZ2S to a good local friend that mainly rebuilds and upgrades vintage SS gear and he has all the equipment to measure output and distortion.We are also going to drive some vintage Jbl 220 speakers and also some Cornwalls and see how it does.

I'm very curious myself and would like to know.

Kenny.

To answer david_ten's question about the MZ2's output, David B told me the MZ2"s max output occurs at 3 ohms, and I can't remember if he said 1.3 or 1.7 watts, this is another contributing factor in how the MZ2 drives the DIs handily.

Porscheracer, 
Congratulations on acquiring the Double Impacts and please continue to post listening impressions as you fine tune your system.  It will only get better with additional hours is my belief. 
 
Bullitt, 
I don't doubt for a moment that you have an open mind. We all hopefully configure our audio systems in a manner that support the ultimate goal,  superb sound quality 😊
Charles 

@porscheracer  Toe in similar to what @corelli stated.

4 feet from the front wall. 5 feet from the side walls, 8 feet apart. 8-9 feet to listening position (all measurements approximate).

Not surprised on your only needing one amp. Looking forward to hearing more about your impressions with the DIs and your system.

How much toe-in are you guys using?

None pointed straight ahead works best for me.

Porscheracer,
For your bedtime reading you will have to read all 1,450 some posts to get your answer.

Alright, just kiddin.  Many of us have the central tweeter axis intersecting slightly behind our listening chair.
The DI's are forgiving on room placement.  I an big on sound stage so I have mine 1/3 out into the room and listen at the 2/3 mark from the front wall.
Have fun!

Charles I have a layer of tubes in the Preamp I have on order. I am certainly going to keep an open mind.

Well, I didn’t even bother unpacking the second Vidar and sent it back to Schiit. 200 watts per channel into 4 ohms is WAY MORE than enough power. Especially when you factor in the gain from using the tube stage with Freya.

Vidar is dual mono back to the transformer. Power used by one channel does not affect power used by the other. So there really is no significant advantage to running two Vidar amps other than it is cool. The downsides to running two Vidar amps include more tube noise and less granularity in the volume control.

These speakers sound great and I haven’t even played around with room placement or toe-in yet. I can’t wait to hear how good they sound after 200 hours and I get them placed properly.

How much toe-in are you guys using?

Charles, yep agreed. 

Shayne,
This is a high  quality thread.  Different perspectives stimulate dialogue. You can disagree with someone yet respect their input based on their unique experiences. That has been displayed here on more than a few occasions. 
Charles 

Well, thats some spirited, but relevant, debate regarding amps! I congratulate everyone for maintaining their cool!! Can’t wait for porscheracer’s report once he has had a chance to fully integrate the DIs into his system.....

Sure Terry.  Send me a PM and we'll see what we can work out.

@craigl59 :

Thank You!!! for your earlier response to my question regarding JRiver.

The very steep learning curve was what had held me off using it in the past, and you've confirmed that it still has a steep learning curve.

I'd like to keep things simple but realize I'm leaving some control and performance on the table by not investing the required time to learn and be proficient with JRiver.

Bullitt,
Keep in mind that transistors have inevitable coloration just as tubes exhibit. Granted the coloration is "different " in nature and character. One can generalize and say tubes tend toward low even order distortion i.e. warmth. Transistors gravitate toward odd order distortion i.e, lean/thinner, pick your preference, we all ultimately do.

There simply is such thing as a purely neutral audio product, everything has an innate character. For example the following are all highly regarded transistor amplifiers.
Soulution
Gryphon
Pass Labs
Constellation
Spectral
DartZeel
I’ve heard them all, each is solid state and each is clearly different.
Which of these is right? Which is the most genuinely neutral?

They sound different because they are, each has a distinct character (coloration). You can do the same with a list of highly regarded tube amplifiers. You cannot escape coloration. My amplifier has Coloration and I accept that reality.

Bullitt, you and I have made our choice as to what particular type of distortion/coloration we can live with happily.
Charles

Thanks Al. I understand your comments and still question the ability of a 1 watt amp to scale large orchestral crescendos and the like. Many listeners do listen at weighted average db levels of 86-92db when off the leash. Peaks, clean peaks, would push the amp too close to its max and even beyond.

After owning several speakers ranging from 90-95 efficiency ( Acoustic Zen Crescendos, Coincident Total Victory II, Lahave two-ways) it became clear that 8-40 tube watts was not enough to handle dynamics in some music. Sure the room could be filled with great music at 80-85 average db on vocals, some jazz, and pop. However, more dynamic music or recordings with low gain, sounded fragile and a tad nervous. Classical piano is another place where it became clear more power was needed.

I must admitt the thought of 1 watt, never-mind 8, working in most modest size rooms on lower gain recordings, classical piano, and classical music is challenging to me. Perhaps challenging is too kind a word, impossible to me 😊

The 1 Watt output has been accepted de rigueur.

Has anyone bench measured the actual power output of the MZ2S?