Bob, the KXR/20 is one of the best preamps made I feel. It's Ayre's best product to date IMHO as well as most others. It's a special piece. The MXR/20 upgrade is awesome, but not in the same league as the KXR. That said, the preamp is more important than the amp, so that would be the upgrade I go with. The literally use only the case and connections. The rest of the unit is brand new. The may still use the transformer. It's basically a brand new unit though. I have seen them make them. Hope that helps a bit. It's a 30k preamp for a reason. I dream of owning one.
The imperfect amp: Pass or Ayre?
There are two high end SS amp brands which, from a technical perspective, don’t do very well, which I am thinking of:
Ayre and Pass.
Pass has stated that even ordered distortion is euphonic. Ayre’s zero feedback, diamond circuit has a great deal of distortion compared to the very best measuring amps.
I have to admit, that like an IPA vs. a Belgian White, I have a very strong preference, but my preference is not canon. It is just how my wallet moves me. You should in no way feel like my tastes matter. Buy what makes you giddy with joy.
Would you, kind lady or gentleman, tell us if you have heard both, what did you think?? Is this to narrow? Would you throw another brand into the ring??
Ayre and Pass.
Pass has stated that even ordered distortion is euphonic. Ayre’s zero feedback, diamond circuit has a great deal of distortion compared to the very best measuring amps.
I have to admit, that like an IPA vs. a Belgian White, I have a very strong preference, but my preference is not canon. It is just how my wallet moves me. You should in no way feel like my tastes matter. Buy what makes you giddy with joy.
Would you, kind lady or gentleman, tell us if you have heard both, what did you think?? Is this to narrow? Would you throw another brand into the ring??
87 responses Add your response
I believe John Curl refers to 7th order harmonics as the “devil’s 7th” and attributes a lot of what is heard as harshness to excessive 7th order harmonics.This fact has been known since the 1930s and probably earlier. The 3rd edition of the Radiotron Designer's Handbook, published in the 1930s makes mention of this particular fact- and that it has to be in much lower amounts than the lower orders in order for the amplifier to be listenable. |
Talk about specs? I own two 45 year old Crown amps. One is the DC 150A series II. The other is a PL One. I have enjoyed for years the great sound. The specs on the older DC 150 A II will rival some of the best amps made. Zero phase shift from DC to 50khz. Distortion very low. Can drive 2 ohm loads. But the sound is not as good as some other gear like Leveson, Mac, and others The endeavor for perfection in sound is all between the ears as much as in them. |
I’ve started 2 threads about Pass. I’ve solicited details, and pretty much only discouraged posts which lacked specifics of gear and encouraged relative discussions. "I listened to brand x and I ended up with Pass because ..." Plenty of all pro-Pass threads, which don’t really reach beyond that demo. Or threads asking "What’s the best Pass integrated?" or "I have a Paxx X53, should I get the X60???" The Pass / Ayre divide is in this sense extremely useful since neither amp attempts absolute technical perfection buyers who have compared the two may have the most to discuss. In the mean time several interesting people have jumped in at any opportunity to claim intentions which are simply not in evidence in the thread. But please, call me a troll and fail to participate. |
looks like buyer's remorse too bad mate. many amp brands out there that will suit your taste better try using your ears they will never fool you. that pseudo scientific approach is what got you to this state of confusion.i can imagine that now you can choose the best amp only by looking at it's thd ...yeah right. if you would only buy what sounds best to you than you wouldn't need specs or audio forums to make you feel better about it. i also understand the heroes that try to inform us of the bullshit products that exist but in this case both brands are so loved by audiophiles that nothing you will say can hurt them. don't trust me trust your ears |
Looks like 6 TROLLING discussions to me... https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/the-imperfect-amp-pass-or-ayre https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/you-ve-tried-other-amps-and-ended-with-pass-please-discuss https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/ayre-parasound-pass-where-are-you https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/pass-xa200-8-review-fun-measurements https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/spectral-vs-ayre-vs-pass-vs-bryston-comparisons-and-thoughts https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/used-pre-ayre-pass-or-para-jc2 Here's the biggest joke of the century (written by Eric).
Funny thing is, the Luxman 507ux sounds bright, thin, and dry compared to Pass amps. Audiodrom only gave it a 76%, while the pass int 250 get 92%. Eric, why do you keep chasing bad sound after bad sound? If you've gotten a Pass Amp at the beginning, you wouldn't be in the situation your in now. Hopefully, you'll be a bit smarter with your next amp purchase (I genuinely mean that too). |
I agree with others responding to this guy’s post- endless obvious trolling with an overt agenda to look for issues with Pass products- Just weird frankly.
Eric, why do you keep chasing bad sound after bad sound? If you've gotten a Pass Amp at the beginning, you wouldn't be in the situation your in now. Why would anyone "start threads" wanting others to "post up negatives" on a public forum, if not to denigrate that product themselves. (a passed, Pass scarred man is what I see) It’s ok if you post up these negatives yourself Eric in debate over Pass amps on threads, but to start threads asking others to do it for you is, well?? a bit like hiding behind the bushes and throwing stones. Cheers George |
If erik wants to start threads questioning Pass amps, that's OK. There are so many positive threads and posts about Pass that trying to find any negative experiences is a good idea. Getting both sides of the story is always beneficial. erik starts lots of threads, many of which address controversial topics. My experience with his threads is that he is polite and usually has something to offer. He seems to like to debate audio topics. What's wrong with that? If he was a troll, I wouldn't defend him. I don't think that's what he's doing though. |
I agreee @tomcy6 , but the problem is what about the member who takes time putting together a well thought out post only to find out that their response didn’t really matter since Eric is only looking for negative comments. So now the issue becomes members not posting because they now understand it has no context to the subject in the title - that’s what’s wrong. He’s wasting the time of others. And to him it's just a big joke. |
golfnutz31 posts
gdnrbob He just want to find out why people find Pass amps are so desirable. Really, then maybe I don't understand what the following means: erik_squires OP Whatever it is Pass fanatics rave about it grates on me. 👌 That just says it all. |
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There are other detailed Pass and Ayre comparisons out here. Here is one where I added my 2 cents: https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/passlabs-350-8-versus-ayre-mxr-twenty I think if you actually heard both, it's not difficult to tell the difference. It's all taste and preference driven as to which one you end up liking. |
So, Audiogon removed the posts where I called those calling me a troll trolls. I’m not sure what the standard is. I stand by the removed posts. This was a perfectly good thread until posters started criticizing me. I challenge anyone to see where I’ve encouraged others to post anti-pass posts here or anywhere else. In fact my standard has been consistent: Please make specific comments others can relate to, regardless of whether you ended up with a pass or not. If you get all bent out of shape because I like to talk about relative differences in amps with specifics, the problem is with you, not me. If you believe the Pass brand and sales are so delicate a few discussions that aren't 1000% pro Pass will affect them, you clearly don't believe very much in the strength of the brand. Same for Ayre. If anything, there's' been 1 recent post where a specific comparison was made and the user preferred Pass to Ayre. |
I'm certain that many people use Ayre or Pass amps with Wilsons and suffer greatly and often from what is clearly the act of being fooled into having fun. What sheep...don't they know that these amps aren't "all that?" I can only assume these listeners sit there for hours in front of their Wilsons thinking "man, I wish these Pass amps were BETTER somehow," and the expense involved in what is obviously an experience of near mediocrity is simply criminal. I'm with Square Eric on this one...Nelson Pass in particular should be ashamed of his contribution to this art form with thousands of music lovers trapped in his web of delusional sonic bliss. "Oh the humanity!" |
Nelson Pass in particular should be ashamed of his contribution to this art form with thousands of music lovers trapped in his web of delusional sonic bliss. "Oh the humanity!" That's not a statement I'd ever utter or support. Nelson Pass' contributions and success as an engineer and manufacturer stand on their own. But stating any amp brand is "nirvana" kind of goes against the grain of being an audiophile, doesn't it? I mean aren't we quibblers by nature? Isn't it in our blood to discuss the relative and specific merits? Erik |
You don’t buy an amplifier or audio gear... to measure it.... you buy to listen to it. It’s about how it sounds to your ears and brain... if you’re lucky also your soul. Sure measurements matter and serve these designers as a guide... but in the end it’s their team of ears that ultimately determine how it sounds. Oh and to the OP who keeps opening threads to disparage a designer who is one of the few that the most amount of audiophiles actually agree on... you’re doing a far better job disparaging yourself than a well loved designer. |
You don’t buy an amplifier or audio gear... to measure it.... you buy to listen to it. But you need to listen to it at home, "if" you understand the specs and bench tests, you can make a decision to take it home in the first place or not and not waste time, as dealers will sell you anything. Also all your equipment is designed using these measurements and tests, then the designer listens to it, and if necessary makes changes using again those measurements and bench tests. If you have any equipment that wasn’t made using these measurements and test, then you have junk! Cheers George |