There are two high end SS amp brands which, from a technical perspective, don’t do very well, which I am thinking of:
Ayre and Pass.
Pass has stated that even ordered distortion is euphonic. Ayre’s zero feedback, diamond circuit has a great deal of distortion compared to the very best measuring amps.
I have to admit, that like an IPA vs. a Belgian White, I have a very strong preference, but my preference is not canon. It is just how my wallet moves me. You should in no way feel like my tastes matter. Buy what makes you giddy with joy.
Would you, kind lady or gentleman, tell us if you have heard both, what did you think?? Is this to narrow? Would you throw another brand into the ring??
You don’t buy an amplifier or audio gear... to measure it.... you buy to listen to it.
But you need to listen to it at home, "if" you understand the specs and bench tests, you can make a decision to take it home in the first place or not and not waste time, as dealers will sell you anything. Also all your equipment is designed using these measurements and tests, then the designer listens to it, and if necessary makes changes using again those measurements and bench tests. If you have any equipment that wasn’t made using these measurements and test, then you have junk! Cheers George
You don’t buy an amplifier or audio gear... to measure it.... you buy to listen to it. It’s about how it sounds to your ears and brain... if you’re lucky also your soul. Sure measurements matter and serve these designers as a guide... but in the end it’s their team of ears that ultimately determine how it sounds. Oh and to the OP who keeps opening threads to disparage a designer who is one of the few that the most amount of audiophiles actually agree on... you’re doing a far better job disparaging yourself than a well loved designer.
Nelson Pass in particular should be ashamed of his contribution to this
art form with thousands of music lovers trapped in his web of delusional
sonic bliss. "Oh the humanity!"
That's not a statement I'd ever utter or support. Nelson Pass' contributions and success as an engineer and manufacturer stand on their own.
But stating any amp brand is "nirvana" kind of goes against the grain of being an audiophile, doesn't it? I mean aren't we quibblers by nature? Isn't it in our blood to discuss the relative and specific merits?
I'm certain that many people use Ayre or Pass amps with Wilsons and suffer greatly and often from what is clearly the act of being fooled into having fun. What sheep...don't they know that these amps aren't "all that?" I can only assume these listeners sit there for hours in front of their Wilsons thinking "man, I wish these Pass amps were BETTER somehow," and the expense involved in what is obviously an experience of near mediocrity is simply criminal. I'm with Square Eric on this one...Nelson Pass in particular should be ashamed of his contribution to this art form with thousands of music lovers trapped in his web of delusional sonic bliss. "Oh the humanity!"
So, Audiogon removed the posts where I called those calling me a troll trolls. I’m not sure what the standard is.
I stand by the removed posts. This was a perfectly good thread until posters started criticizing me.
I challenge anyone to see where I’ve encouraged others to post anti-pass posts here or anywhere else. In fact my standard has been consistent: Please make specific comments others can relate to, regardless of whether you ended up with a pass or not.
If you get all bent out of shape because I like to talk about relative differences in amps with specifics, the problem is with you, not me.
If you believe the Pass brand and sales are so delicate a few discussions that aren't 1000% pro Pass will affect them, you clearly don't believe very much in the strength of the brand. Same for Ayre. If anything, there's' been 1 recent post where a specific comparison was made and the user preferred Pass to Ayre.
There are other detailed Pass and Ayre comparisons out here. Here is one where I added my 2 cents: https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/passlabs-350-8-versus-ayre-mxr-twenty I think if you actually heard both, it's not difficult to tell the difference. It's all taste and preference driven as to which one you end up liking.
@golfnutz, I don't think Eric is trying to solicit negative comments. Quite the opposite. He just want to find out why people find Pass amps are so desirable.
@audiofound, Read Ralph Karsten's posts regarding harmonics. They tell the reason. B
To the OP.....How do amps with even ordered harmonics sound to your ears? They sound pretty darn good to my ears. Especially Pass. The int 60 sounds so good to my ears I can hardly contain myself listening to it. Couple it with an MSB ADC V DAC.....a match made in heaven.
I agreee @tomcy6 , but the problem is what about the member who takes time putting together a well thought out post only to find out that their response didn’t really matter since Eric is only looking for negative comments. So now the issue becomes members not posting because they now understand it has no context to the subject in the title - that’s what’s wrong. He’s wasting the time of others. And to him it's just a big joke.
If erik wants to start threads questioning Pass amps, that's OK. There are so many positive threads and posts about Pass that trying to find any negative experiences is a good idea. Getting both sides of the story is always beneficial.
erik starts lots of threads, many of which address controversial topics. My experience with his threads is that he is polite and usually has something to offer. He seems to like to debate audio topics. What's wrong with that? If he was a troll, I wouldn't defend him. I don't think that's what he's doing though.
I agree with others responding to this guy’s post- endless obvious trolling with an overt agenda to look for issues with Pass products- Just weird frankly.
Stop with the nonsense about technical imperfections!
Eric, why do you keep chasing bad sound after bad sound? If you've gotten a Pass Amp at the beginning, you wouldn't be in the situation your in now.
Why would anyone "start threads" wanting others to "post up negatives" on a public forum, if not to denigrate that product themselves. (a passed, Pass scarred man is what I see)
It’s ok if you post up these negatives yourself Eric in debate over Pass amps on threads, but to start threads asking others to do it for you is, well?? a bit like hiding behind the bushes and throwing stones.
Here's the biggest joke of the century (written by Eric).
For sound quality, I think it’s a better amp than my Parasound A23 and ICEpower 250 AS modules, for identical reasons. It is also better than any Pass amp I’ve heard, for totally different reasons.
Compared to the Pass amps though, it's a totally different story. I find the Pass amps I have heard leaner and frankly, audibly irritating. I’ve heard a very nice set up at an audiophile’s home, and heard many at an audio show near San Francisco where Pass was a sponsor. Whatever it is Pass fanatics rave about it grates on me.
Funny thing is, the Luxman 507ux sounds bright, thin, and dry compared to Pass amps. Audiodrom only gave it a 76%, while the pass int 250 get 92%.
Eric, why do you keep chasing bad sound after bad sound? If you've gotten a Pass Amp at the beginning, you wouldn't be in the situation your in now. Hopefully, you'll be a bit smarter with your next amp purchase (I genuinely mean that too).
looks like buyer's remorse too bad mate. many amp brands out there that will suit your taste better try using your ears they will never fool you. that pseudo scientific approach is what got you to this state of confusion.i can imagine that now you can choose the best amp only by looking at it's thd ...yeah right. if you would only buy what sounds best to you than you wouldn't need specs or audio forums to make you feel better about it. i also understand the heroes that try to inform us of the bullshit products that exist but in this case both brands are so loved by audiophiles that nothing you will say can hurt them. don't trust me trust your ears
Stop with the nonsense about technical imperfections! Both amplifiers measure quite well on traditional bench test protocols. They are both low noise and low distortion amps that meet their specifications.
I’ve solicited details, and pretty much only discouraged posts which lacked specifics of gear and encouraged relative discussions. "I listened to brand x and I ended up with Pass because ..."
Plenty of all pro-Pass threads, which don’t really reach beyond that demo. Or threads asking "What’s the best Pass integrated?" or "I have a Paxx X53, should I get the X60???"
The Pass / Ayre divide is in this sense extremely useful since neither amp attempts absolute technical perfection buyers who have compared the two may have the most to discuss.
In the mean time several interesting people have jumped in at any opportunity to claim intentions which are simply not in evidence in the thread.
But please, call me a troll and fail to participate.
Talk about specs? I own two 45 year old Crown amps. One is the DC 150A series II. The other is a PL One. I have enjoyed for years the great sound. The specs on the older DC 150 A II will rival some of the best amps made. Zero phase shift from DC to 50khz. Distortion very low. Can drive 2 ohm loads. But the sound is not as good as some other gear like Leveson, Mac, and others The endeavor for perfection in sound is all between the ears as much as in them.
I agree with others responding to this guy's post- endless obvious trolling with an overt agenda to look for issues with Pass products- Just weird frankly.
I believe John Curl refers to 7th order harmonics as the “devil’s 7th”
and attributes a lot of what is heard as harshness to excessive 7th
order harmonics.
This fact has been known since the 1930s and probably earlier. The 3rd edition of the Radiotron Designer's Handbook, published in the 1930s makes mention of this particular fact- and that it has to be in much lower amounts than the lower orders in order for the amplifier to be listenable.
Every amp is imperfect. Pass amps just happen to be imperfect in a pleasing way. To my ears they sound amazing with the right speakers. If your goal is neutral reproduction then look elsewhere.
I believe John Curl refers to 7th order harmonics as the “devil’s 7th” and attributes a lot of what is heard as harshness to excessive 7th order harmonics.
IF I have to drink an IPA it’s always a Bastard Kat from bellingham, but I would rather par boil a dozen brats in IPA than drink the stuff....make sure you add onions too....
depending on what design you’re focused on, Pass doesn’t just make some of what he does transparent, he makes all of it so. So many of his circuits are totally laid bare for people to read/analyze/copy/modify. His support of DIY makes the high end audio world a better place.
@atmasphere I think the weighting system is a splendid idea and certainly a tool designers could develop internal to the firm as a way to score various designs. We used a weighted multi variable trade space to evaluate designs for Aerosystems, etc
Bob, the KXR/20 is one of the best preamps made I feel. It's Ayre's best product to date IMHO as well as most others. It's a special piece. The MXR/20 upgrade is awesome, but not in the same league as the KXR. That said, the preamp is more important than the amp, so that would be the upgrade I go with. The literally use only the case and connections. The rest of the unit is brand new. The may still use the transformer. It's basically a brand new unit though. I have seen them make them. Hope that helps a bit. It's a 30k preamp for a reason. I dream of owning one.
Thanks for the detailed answer. I own the MX-R and KX-R. Both sound pretty amazing in their non-updated state. I had a chance to update the KX-R, but wanted to hear it first before I did anything. In fact, it bested my Atma MP-3. (So, Ralph is going to build me an MP-1😁, so I can do a closer comparison). As it sounds so good now, I really needed your comments regarding the Twenty upgrade in order to get an idea of what kind of improvements there would be. (Looks like I will be waiting for the next Upgrade Special at Ayre). Unfortunately, my Treo's are not up-gradable to CT status.-And, I really don't wish to buy another speaker.
It would be nice to me if I could go from my preferred amps to specs and
go "aha! This is what I like!" and therefore, buy the cheapest that
fits. :D :D :D
@erik_squires What is needed (and entirely possible right now) is a weighting system for the various harmonic spectra. The 2nd and 3rd, since the ear is least sensitive to them having a weight of 'one', something like the 7th having a weight of 500 and the 11th or 13th maybe 1000. If we had a system like that we'd know what we're dealing with in a heartbeat, but don't hold your breath- the industry collectively would be really hating on something like that since its bad for business- what- a spec sheet that tells you how it sounds?? Yikes!!
@almarg & @atmasphere Just to repeat, thanks so much for posting. It's so good when education is made part of this site where so much is just opinion.
@erik_squires And depending on what design you're focused on, Pass doesn't just make some of what he does transparent, he makes all of it so. So many of his circuits are totally laid bare for people to read/analyze/copy/modify. His support of DIY makes the high end audio world a better place.
I think specs and measurements are for the most part stuck in the 1970s when it comes to amplifiers and electronics, despite better tools. Yes, we can measure THD 100x better and cheaper. But have we added any meaningful measurements? Anything new that helps describe a listener, room, speaker, amp interaction with a particular amp?
A lot of what I think I'm circling around is bemoaning that we don't have better.
While some speaker makers have gone to great lengths to connect measurements to listener preference, if amp makers are doing this, for the most part I haven't heard of them. Pass, to his credit, makes some of what he's trying to do transparent.
It would be nice to me if I could go from my preferred amps to specs and go "aha! This is what I like!" and therefore, buy the cheapest that fits. :D :D :D
To add to @almarg 's comments above, specs *are* important; perhaps the one that can be the most counter-intuitive is THD, as a very low THD spec is often an amp that doesn't sound nearly as good as one with a higher THD spec. I've already explained why above. But bandwidth is real, output impedance is important (which isn't to say that the lowest output impedance is the best). Some speakers **require** that the amp have a higher output impedance, such as ESLs, horns and single-driver full range loudspeakers. Or any speaker where the designer has sorted out that he doesn't like brightness and harshness and so has designed the speaker for amps designed with intention to not have these properties (and often that means no feedback, so a higher output impedance). For more on this topic see:http://www.atma-sphere.com/Resources/Paradigms_in_Amplifier_Design.php Now I discovered back in the 1970s that feedback wasn't all it was cracked up to be; that it could cause the amp to have a smaller soundstage (unlike the original recording; I know that from the use of master tapes) and be brighter than the actual recording as well. Since then I learned there is far more to it than just that simple concept- the use of feedback introduces about 7 different variables that the designer has to weigh out. FWIW the feedback formula doesn't offer a lot of guidance in that regard: in a nutshell most amps with feedback have a rather cursory application and ignore some factors (like RFI leaking into the amp via the speaker cables) entirely.
So of the specs that are suspect as to how much they contribute to good sound in an amplifier, IMO/IME the two top suspects appear to be THD and output impedance (IOW a better sounding amp might be one where these specs have higher rather than lower numbers).
Alternatively we also know that IMD is highly audible so low IMD specs are a very good sign but IMD is more pervasive than most audiophiles like to think about. In addition to the normal interactions between two tones, IMD also is a major issue in digital audio, but because the intermodulations are having to do with the scan frequency and the Nyquist Theorem, its called 'aliasing'. But as far as the ear is concerned, aliasing (the digital industry does not like to refer to it as a distortion, but that's exactly what it is) is an intermodulation (sometimes called 'inharmonic distortion' in the analog world) and so highly audible (the ear treats it as a brightness or 'crispness' and its still there if you turn down the treble, because the brightness is caused by distortion rather than frequency response). Of course if you look at the specs of a digital product, this form of distortion isn't listed. Again- the Emperor's New Clothes. Fortunately the digital world has been getting a better handle on this in later years; the more they do so the more natural digital is able to sound.
Very interesting and informative comments. The most pleasurable power amplifiers I have heard with my Vandersteen model 5A speakers are the Lafayette KT-550 tube amp, the refurbished old Luxkit power amp (sounds amazing) and the hybrid tube amps that I built.
Specs don’t mean crap, it’s all in what you hear and like.
A lot of audiophiles feel that way. However as I see it specs (and measurements) can often provide a lot of value in two ways:
1) By allowing one to identify and RULE OUT from consideration candidates for purchase that would be poor matches to either the surrounding components or to the user’s requirements. An example of the latter would be how much power is needed to support desired peak volumes. Examples of the former would be incompatibilities due to impedance issues, gain and sensitivity mismatches, and various issues which can result in amplifier/speaker mismatches.
One way in which specs and measurements can sometimes serve that purpose is by providing insight into the priorities of the designer, and in doing so making it possible to identify misplaced priorities. Such as specs that may be TOO good and thus may signify undesirable design tradeoffs. A classic example of the latter would be an amplifier having unusually good Total Harmonic Distortion numbers relative to other comparable kinds of designs, which can signify heavy-handed application of feedback in the design, with the downsides that have been mentioned.
If specs are disregarded and/or are not properly understood the randomness of the process of assembling a satisfactory system, and the likelihood of expensive mistakes, are significantly increased IMO.
2) Specs and measurements are also often useful in troubleshooting problems and diagnosing sonic issues. I couldn’t begin to count the number of times I and many others have referred to John Atkinson’s measurements in Stereophile in addressing such issues in discussions here.
Some top amps in this thread. Ralph's post is priceless as Jim pointed out.
Bob, the difference for my system was night and day. To my ears, it shares the fast Ayre traits, but the bass got tighter, the dynamics all showed huge gains. Feel free to call if you want to.
I own a pass labs amp, I don’t care about stats, years ago stereophile did a blind test with the worst specs an amp ever had, the other amp had near perfect specs. Guess who won? The amp with the worst specs, by the way it was a tube amp. Specs don’t mean crap, it’s all in what you hear and like.
@gdnrbob OK a short comparison and context for the upgrade and eventual replacement. I bought the VX-R to run Vandersteen 5a after a lengthy evaluation of several other amplifiers, notably the ARC REF150 and the Aesthetix Atlas Stereo. All from competent designers certainly held in high regard by Vandersteen. All three had virtues, ultimately I chose the Ayre for its seamless one character top to bottom balance. I did audition at some length the MXR w Vandy 7 also. I very happlily ran the Ayre for a period of years and eventually landed on the 7 speakers. Leave the Ayre amps on a d they shine after 24 hours or so, before that they sounded just a hint metallic and etched on the very top end. So just leave it on ! the On Semiconductor output devices w thermal trac proved problematic and i lost a channel, Ayre stepped up w shipping both ways and the repair covered under warranty some 4 years on...I decided while it was back at factory to get it upgraded to Twenty series. In short the twenty sings twenty minutes out of standby and lacks any of the etched quality and IMO the midrange sounds more warm and lush, like the REF150. Neither amp has the low end of the Aesthetix. Per my other comments, before I invested in a better amp, I would go as far as I could with speakers...just my buck fifty...
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