The last 20 years of Home Power Have Been Amazing

Worth including actual results, which I just found.  Seems that all these improvements have been leading somewhere good after all!

https://iaeimagazine.org/electrical-safety/a-quarter-century-of-protecting-homes-occupants/

@erik_squires   We just moved into a new home and I'm currently developing the basement around a dedicated listening room.  I found it really helps to have a son-in-law who is a master Electrician.  I ran all the wiring but I like to leave the live hook up at the panel to him.  If you look closely, you will see the whole house surge protector installed.  This idea came from reading one of your earlier posts on this subject.  Required?  Maybe not, but for a few hundred dollars, the peace of mind is well worth it.  IMHO.  Thanks for your informative postings and keep up the good work.  Cheers.  

Forgot the picture.  🤣

Hey @bigtwin - As of 2020, whole house surge protection is required by the NEC, but regional codes may say otherwise.

I really did it wrong. I spent 3 days installing a garbage disposal thinking the entire time I should have raised children to do this for me. Nice to have the family support like that!

I'm afraid that petty projects like mine don't get electrician's or plumber's attention around these parts for love or money.  If they were my kids though I could apply guilt instead.

@erik_squires  Up here in Canada, the concept of surge protectors flies under the radar.  Nothing in the building code.  We need Arc Fault breakers on any lines that have outlets.  Lines with only lights and switches still use regular breakers.  I ran a number of dedicated lines into what will be my listening room.  Double 30 amps and 8 gauge for my 240v step down transformer and 20 amp 10 gauge for my front end equipment.  I plan a full words and picture post later this year when the project is completed.  It's been a lot of fun and a lot of work.  

@bigtwin Oy Vey, is that an Aluminum ladder in front of the live panel?  OSHA 1915.72. Not a good look .              

Eric,

Here's a story. Neighbor here in the lowcountry had lightning hit tree then it went to his gutters, then to internal supporting bolts in footers, then to random outlets zapping his dryer, washer, and two tv's. Would these upgraded outlets you mentioned prevented this? Any solution other than multiple surge protectors?

Given the added protection, all the advances are worth it but the cost--ouch!

Do they still have exceptions e.g. single receptacle, non GFCI for sump pump or freezer to reduce possibility of ghost trip?

@bigtwin 

My brother is building a new home and I have volunteered to plan the basement bar and sound system, something that I did in 2011 when my home was built.

In retrospect, I neglected to run dedicated lines - something I intend to fix in the future - for my basement sound system. I also did not add a whole house surge protector something that - as Erik stated - is now a requirement by the National Electrical Code. Those two things are paramount these days, IMHO.

Would really appreciate you sharing when you are complete as I could use it as a blueprint later this year. Don't forget what type (brand name) of cable and sockets you decided on..thank you ahead of time!

My relatively upscale neighborhood in north San Diego County was built in the late 80s.  the entire development was wired with Federal Pacific Electric (FPE) breaker boxes.  they were out of business about the time that the homes were built because their crappy breakers were burning down houses.  

Fortunately for me, I bought the house and promptly started adding circuits to power tools, an electric dryer (I work for the electric company, but have to admit I've gone back to gas now) and a few othe circuits including 2 circuits for audio.

I was surprised when I went to Home Depot and new breakers weren't available but they sold "refurbished" ones that were 4-10 times the price of new name-brand breakers like Westinghouse.  So I quickly did the math and concluded it was worth the effort to change to a 200 A Westinghouse panel with all new breakers, which I did.  total cost of parts about $300.  I did the work myself.  at the time I didn't even realize how dangerous the FPE breakers were.

Now, 30 years later, I am surprised no homes have burned down but several neighbors have done thermography and found significant hot spots in their boxes.  When they get a quote to change out the box, it runs up to $50,000 because of new regulations.  of course all the breakers have to be the new type which are 5-10 times as expensive.  but the big cost is a new code requirement that the gas meter and the electrical panel must be seperated (I think 10 ft).  This wasn't a requirement when the neighborhood was built so all the gas meters are directly below the electrical panels.    If you try to get a permit to upgrade your electrical panel, you have to meet all the new code requirements, that is,  move either the panel or the gas meter.  One neighbor just moved his gas meter.  what a pain in the rear and what a cost.  He had to take off a total of 7 days from work to be home for various appointments and of course there were the obligatory redos to make the inspector happy.  

One neighbor found an electrician who would do the work without a permit and without moving the gas meter.  that was probably the best answer.

Most of the neighbors are doing nothing because of the expense of moving the gas meter (generally seen as cheaper than moving the electrical panel).  Clearly this code change, along with the requirement to backfit any new code requirements in order to get a permit, is making the neighborhood much less safe.

Jerry

It isn't just audio protection folks. I put in a Whole house surge protector after a brown out fried (in the middle of a California summer) all the control electronics in our AC/heat pumps. Our forebears were tougher than us and lived with no AC on days over 100 degrees Fahrenheit (38C for you @bigtwin). An AudioQuest Niagara guards audio equipment. So there's that.

@erik_squires  Up here in Canada, the concept of surge protectors flies under the radar. 

@bigtwin Silly me, I forgot Canadians listen to audio equipment too. :)

Here’s a story. Neighbor here in the lowcountry had lightning hit tree then it went to his gutters, then to internal supporting bolts in footers, then to random outlets zapping his dryer, washer, and two tv’s. Would these upgraded outlets you mentioned prevented this? Any solution other than multiple surge protectors?

@jpwarren58 - Neither the GFCI nor CAFCI breakers help with electrical surges. The first reduces fatalities from electric shocks especially around wet areas, while CAFCI reduces fires which may start in a wall. While the statistical evidence of reduced deaths and structure fires is clear no one sells them as lightning or surge devices. Protecting your appliances and home wiring from lightning and power line surges however is what a whole house surge protector should do.

Now, as far as whole house surge protectors, yes, protecting appliances from power surges is what they should do. Keep in mind that no protection is perfect, but we often look to the worst case scenarios to prove something doesn’t work. Like seat belts. Any first responder working through the 1990s will tell you the mandatory seat belt laws meant they were rescuing more accident victims and picking up fewer bodies than they used to. Traffic fatalities have dropped about 50% since states started adopting mandatory seat belt requirements, but it's also true that traffic fatalities do occur.  The question I ask people is whether you know when you are going to get into a car accident or not.  If you do, then sure, don't wear a seat belt until you know you are going to be in an accident.  Otherwise put it on at all times. 

I also happen to live in the SC lowcountry and a whole house unit was the first thing I installed here, but they do have their limitations. All whole house units have relatively high let-through voltages. I wrote about the technical differences at length here. To make a long story short, your most delicate devices may still need a good surge protector. I lost a MacBook Air I left charging overnight through a thunderstorm, forgot all about it, but the multiple PC’s and electronics I have on surge strips didn’t even notice.

I also have about 50 devices which are permanently connected which I can’t surge protect. ~ 20 automated light switches, 4 HVAC units, 7 major kitchen appliances, the hot water heater, fire alarms, etc. Also, many of these devices have become more delicate. Mechanical timers have given way to computerized circuits throughout the kitchen and laundry area.

Hi @erik_squires

I’m in Missouri and have never heard of needing whole house anything and I can use a 29cent receptacle anywhere except for within 6’ of water. I just had a couple of rooms added to the house and I had to get a 100amp sub panel. The only thing I noticed that was different was that the buttons on the 110 outlets were both white instead of (red and black)in the new laundry room. I also had to rebuild a bathroom ( no fun at all!) and I was required to use the same 110 plug with the white buttons.

@carlsbad2 

While diaphragm gas meters are commonplace, your gas company should be actively looking to replace them as smart meters provide remote billing and can detect leaks. Kind of a thing nowadays ensure a house doesn't blow up!

There is evidence that home gas explosions are on the rise and gas utility companies are held responsible for leaks that cause those explosions. And, of course, insurance companies pay for those damages so gas companies are on the hook to fix their own issues; not the homeowner. If explosions are up, insurance companies know it, and unless the gas utility upgrades their meters, their insurance premiums will go up, forcing change.

Your gas company should be actively looking to replace those meters and would be required to install it 3 feet or more away from the electrical meter to meet today's code requirements. 

While my house was built in 2011, our natural gas company just last week sent us a notice that they will replace the diaphragm meters this year; and ours in particular in just a couple of weeks. 

You should have a grandfather clause on your meter location and while it may not be up to code at this time, they cannot (IMHO) force a homeowner to fix a code issue, especially when the utility must be the one to do the work. It is their network; their risk. 

If I had the issue you have, I would call the gas company and tell them you sometimes smell gas outside your home and would like it checked out. That should get the ball rolling quite quickly to have your meter replaced.

@goodlistening64 The gas company is quite aware of it. they are grandfathered. Nothing needs to change until you try to pull a permit to work on either the gas meter or the electrical panel. then CA makes you bring your installation up to code. While there may be a slight risk to having them right beside each other, it is tiny compared to the risk of the FPE breakers staying installed for who knows how long.

And the gas company has replaced the gas meter, the electric company has replaced the electric meter.  No indication of any interest in moving either of them.  they are grandfathered.

Jerry

Don’t get me going in 50$ arc fault breakers and their failure rate. Complete bs. They cause more problems than their supposed safety value. 

@erik_squires 

forgot to ask, why do I want a whole house surge protector when everything important is either on a power conditioner, with a magnetic surge protector or a UPS for the computers, NAS, Router etc?  Would I need one for the sub panel?  And what is involved in installing one or maybe two whole house surge protectors?

@erik_squires Many of us feel power amps sound best when plugged directly into the wall outlets. But these amps tend to have good internal protection. Obviously whole house surge protection would help shield other costly appliances, but how valuable for good power amps?

@hickamore the amps don't generally have internal protection, they have good power supplies that handle the noisy sine waves of utility power.  the only protection they have is the mains fuse.

A surge protector is different than a fuse.  a fuse won't protect you from a lightening strike.  a surge protector doesn't always eitehr but makes an attempt.  

The whole house surge protector doesn't try to "clean up" your power or "condition" it.  it just opens a breaker very quicky when it detects a surge  So it doen't limit current like some power "conditioners" do.  It is this power limiting characteristic that makes your amp sound better plugged into the wall.

Jerry

@bigtwin said: 01-03-2025 at 07:30pm

Mount SPD as close to panel or equipment as possible to keep leads short.
(long leads hurt performance).
▪ Ensure leads are as short and straight as possible, including neutral and ground. Use a breaker position that is close to the SPD and the
panel’s neutral and ground.

I’m in Missouri and have never heard of needing whole house anything and I can use a 29cent receptacle anywhere except for within 6’ of water.

@curiousjim In terms of outlets, that’s pretty much still true but where some kitchen appliances were previously excluded (diswhasher, range, microwave) they are now very much included in GFCI requirements. The clothes washer and dryer are also now on team GFCI required as well.  The code does not require you to go retrofit all these appliances but if building new after 2023 you should.

So a big change is the 240V GFCI breakers which need to be used in the case of an electric dryer and/or range.

The only thing I noticed that was different was that the buttons on the 110 outlets were both white instead of (red and black)in the new laundry room. I also had to rebuild a bathroom ( no fun at all!) and I was required to use the same 110 plug with the white buttons.

GFCI outlets can come with pure white buttons. It’s purely a cosmetic difference though. I find pure white GFCI outlets to be prettier in the kitchen and bathroom. I also have a pure brown GFCI outlet under a counter which matches the brown panelling better. Again, no difference in terms of code or safety.

forgot to ask, why do I want a whole house surge protector when everything important is either on a power conditioner, with a magnetic surge protector or a UPS for the computers, NAS, Router etc?

I’m in kind of the same boat. Besides my expensive and difficult to fix audio/video gear I have a bunch of computer and networking gear running around the house. All of it on separate surge protectors. Furman on A/V and Tripp Lite or APC for the rest of it.

I still put in a whole house panel because none of that keeps my other 50 or so devices protected. You may not think your furnace, washing machine, fire alarms or home automation switches are important, but I do. :)

Would I need one for the sub panel?

Not required. I’d consider one if 50’ or more from the main panel mostly to help in case of an induced surge. Also good idea if you have a separate building such as a workshop or detached garage.

And what is involved in installing one or maybe two whole house surge protectors?

I like to use in-panel protectors like Siemens Bolt Shield or Square D SurgeBreaker. They have 1 neutral wire and plug right into the panel. The hard part is getting the two slots as close to the main switch as possible. In my case I had to move all the breakers on one side down 2 slots.

The more common surge protectors are separate units with wires and a 2 pole breaker just for them. My least favorite option mostly because the length of the leads can increase the clamping voltage on a fast rise time surge due to increased inductance and resistance.

@61falcon

Do they still have exceptions e.g. single receptacle, non GFCI for sump pump or freezer to reduce possibility of ghost trip?

Refrigerators can still trip a GFCI outlet, but are not excluded.  In other words the outlets need to be 6' away from a sink.  If you must install a freezer near a sink the solution is to have it directly connected and avoid the outlet and plug altogether.

Things get a little weird with dishwashers now though.  They require GFCI regardless of how they are wired.

Sump pumps are still required when plug/cord connected in dwelling areas AFAIK but do not need it when direct wired.

The same is true for disposals.  Direct wired don't need GFCI but cord/plug connected do.  The latter is most likely when your sink is in an island and you must use an air switch to turn it on/off instead of a wall switch.

The Siemens Type 2 SPD is too far from the panel. It should be mounted close to the panel enclosure using a close nipple, or chase nipple.

I’m afraid I agree with @jea48 ’s assessment. I wasn’t going to say anything. An alternative of course is to use an in-panel version like the BoltShield, but the recommendation to mount it as close to the main breaker still applies.

@erik_squires 

Per NEC 2023 all outlets in a kitchen shall be GFCI protected.

With that said not all States have adopted the 2023 NEC. My state is still working under the 2020 NEC. (The AHJ has the final say.)

https://www.nfpa.org/education-and-research/electrical/nec-enforcement-maps

@jea48  I appreciate your comment.  All of the household wiring that runs behind the plywood necessitated an additional piece of backing.  As it is, we relocated a number of breakers to position the listening room breakers directly below the surge protector.  Mounting it in the first breaker slot was not an option.  We used about 1/3 of the wire connected to the device from the manufacturer.  If an extra 6 inches of wire makes a difference, when electricity is travelling at 300,000 meters per second, then the surge protector is just a false sense of security?  

@carlsbad2  Appreciate the clarification, thx.

Per NEC 2023 all outlets in a kitchen shall be GFCI protected

@jea48 dammit, you are correct!!

This may be a code requirement I ignore ...😅

Seriously though, my previous fridge would trip the GFCI at least twice daily so I hope this means modern units are better.

In Washington State 2pole circuits serving appliances has been delayed till 2026.below is copied from the State’s monthly newsletter 

ELECTRICAL CURRENTS Question of the Month - How can you apply for the inspector pre-employment electrical assessment? See Page 2. This document may contain hyperlinks to internet web pages. Access this PDF document online at: https://lni.wa.gov/licensing-permits/electrical/electrical-currents-newsletter/ Electrical Section Internet Address: https://www.lni.wa.gov/ - Select Licensing & Permits, then Electrical Page 1 of 2 A Newsletter from the Office of L&I Chief Electrical Inspector Wayne Molesworth October 2024 GFCI Protection Requirements Delayed Appliance manufacturers and standards organizations need more time to ensure compatibility with new GFCI protection requirements. For this reason, we are delaying enforcement of the following until July 1, 2026: 1. 2023 NEC 210.8(A) and (B) for 250 volt receptacles for electric ranges, wall mounted ovens and counter mounted cooking equipment. 2. 2023 NEC 210.8(D)(8), (9), and (10) for 250 volt electric ranges, wall mounted ovens and counter mounted cooking equipment.

Personally I’m a believer in AFCI and GFCI.  I find it appalling the appliance manufacturers can’t manufacture a safe product without relying on homeowners to install devices to make their products safe. AFCI and GFCI protect people from conditions they may be ignorant of . An old outlet that can’t hold the space heater plug firmly . 
Regarding whole house surge protection the code minimum is only about a hundred dollars,  it offers a base level of protection.  I feel this code was driven by the manufacturers to sell more products 

In CA at least, all bathroom, kitchen, and garage outlets have been GFCI required since at least the 80s.  this results in some strange circuits where the builder puts garage, bath and kitchen outlets on the same circuit since one outlet protects the entire circuit.  they saved $3. apparently copper wire was cheap then.

New, properly wired AFCIs are quite stable regardless of load plugged into them. AFCI breakers that trip all the time probably have their neutrals crosswired.

@erik_squires 

We actually have an electric dryer and we didn’t get any GFI of any sort, but we did have to switch out the 220 power cord from one that has three leads to one that has four.

 I did look at some YouTube videos and installing a whole house surge protector looks simple, but until I figure out why I really would need one, I’ll probably keep looking for the next piece of unobtainium.

@curiousjim Man that was one old dryer !!

🤣

I think the expansive, new GFCI requirements come into play with new constrution where the 2023 code is adopted. I just checked and my state is still on 2020.

A new plug would not force a new breaker in your case either way, but I think the adding of washer and dryer to the list of appliances that need gfci makes sense

While we're on the subject of plugs and outlets, is anyone aware of a high quality NEMA L6-30P 30 Amp Twist Lock 240 Volt 2 Pole 3 Wire.  Both male and female?  All I can find are run of mill Leviton plugs in the $20 range.  You can spend $$$$ on Furutech outlets but I've never seen anything offered in the way of higher quality 30 amp.  

@carlsbad2  - It wasn't just California.  Buildings before the 1990's were woefully under circuited by today's standards all over the country.  60 Amp services and overloaded fuse boxes were common. 

@oldelectricalinspector - Very interesting, as the only appliance I can think of in the kitchen that would have issues with the GFCI everywhere requirement is a refrigerator.

New, properly wired AFCIs are quite stable regardless of load plugged into them. AFCI breakers that trip all the time probably have their neutrals crosswired.

@devinplombier

Well, my experience is limited to the 20 I have here, and I’ve never had an arc fault false trip. The only tripping I’ve had has been during testing with a GFCI tester or an accidental over current caused by yours truly leaving two switches too close together while replacing a pair of 3-way switches.

I’d really rather all these breakers were a lot cheaper, for sure, but I’ve got no complaints on the reliability issue.

Many of us feel power amps sound best when plugged directly into the wall outlets. But these amps tend to have good internal protection.

@hickamore 

I’ve never seen such an amplifier. At best I’ve seen an MOV or two in there.

Obviously whole house surge protection would help shield other costly appliances, but how valuable for good power amps?

I think that consumers have very different risk profiles depending on your experience and your equipment. There are people in North America who have never lost equipment from an electrical surge. None of them live in the Southeast. So, speaking personally I can’t imagine spending big dollars on electronics and not having something, anything, to reduce the chance of surge damage.

Also, from my own experience, I know by observation that my amps get fed better power more consistently by using a Furman with voltage regulation + SMP/LiFT. Whether I was living in an apartment with 130VAC or here in a detached home with 10-15V seasonal variations and power fluctuations due to the AC coming on or off, brown outs and monthly power issues I know for a fact that every day, every hour, my integrated gets fed well regulated and clean power.

It also sounded a lot better when living in a densely populated area to have Furman than not.

This is an interesting discussion,  the first appliance requirement for gfci was for dishwashers . The substantiation for the dishwasher requirement was manufactures could not meet the safety requirements for leakage current.  I’ve often wondered why they didn’t include garbage disposals.  
Most code changes are the result of incidents that occurred. The code is often referred to be written in blood. 

One more thought for safety,  when you have an existing circuit for a stove or dryer, if was installed over 20 years ago it will be a 3 wire circuit. Line one ,line two and neutral, NO GROUND! It was at the time permitted to be grounded through the neutral.  A jumper was installed to bond the metal frame to the neutral conductor. If installing a new appliance on an old circuit this jumper must be maintained. 
The interesting reason this was ever allowed in the first place was because during WW 2 copper was precious, needed for the war effort.  The substantiation for the change in the late 90s was, the war was over!

there are two holes in the wall, where I insert the plug and the thing at the other end of the wire lights up. That's how far I got, so far...

This is an interesting discussion, the first appliance requirement for gfci was for dishwashers . The substantiation for the dishwasher requirement was manufactures could not meet the safety requirements for leakage current.

@oldelectricalinspector

I had my 10 year old dishwasher and new (last week) dishwasher on a combination GFCI/CAFCI breaker. No issues at all.

I just converted my disposal to plug in, requiring a GFCI breaker (don't want a GFCI outlet due to location) and again, no issues at all. 

@bigtwin said: 01-03-2025 at 07:30pm

I found it really helps to have a son-in-law who is a master Electrician.

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@bigtwin said:  01-04-2025 at 05:39pm              

We used about 1/3 of the wire connected to the device from the manufacturer. If an extra 6 inches of wire makes a difference, when electricity is travelling at 300,000 meters per second, then the surge protector is just a false sense of security?

I assume the SPD in your photo is a Siemens First Surge Type 2 surge protector, (SPD).

From your photo the length of the PVC nipple looks like it is about 2ft. ??? Camera lens can be deceiving though.

I only pointed out what the manufacturer of the SPD states in their installation instructions. From what I read on the Net the First Surge type 2 SPD comes with 36" leads.???. Is that correct? That’s nuts when in the installation instructions it says to keep the leads as sort as possible. (Well, that’s what you did for your installation). Siemens engineer’s know the length of the leads matter...

I installed an Eaton CHSPT2ULTRA Type 2 SPD at my main electrical service panel, a few years ago. LOL, the main gripe from home owners that installed the Eaton SPD themselves was the leads were too short... It comes with 18" leads. (I didn’t have any problem. In fact I cut them of even shorter.) Unlike Siemens Eaton does not install extra long leads and tell the user to cut them off making them as short as possible. What a waste of wire. (FWIW, Eaton as well as Siemens warranty says the SPD must be installed by a Licensed Electrician.)

.

If an extra 6 inches of wire makes a difference, when electricity is travelling at 300,000 meters per second,

In the event of a high voltage transient surge, a transient surge lasts less than a blink of an eye. Measured in microseconds to milliseconds... An SPD has to react fast. A good type 2 SPD will respond in a nano second or less. That’s Fast!

Actual distance of SPD from panel bus test measurements.

Eaton- Surge Protection

Go to time marker 3:20

With the SPD Bolted to the electrical panel bus the SPD clamped the voltage at 382V.

With an SPD mounted next to the panel the SPD clamped the voltage at 495V. 113V higher.

.

FYI, the Siemens First Surge Type 2 surge protector has been discontinued.

Replaced by:

Boltshield FSPD 140kA, Single Phase, Type-2 Surge Protective Device

The factory leads on the new SPD are 18 inches long.

.

Effects of Wire Lead Length on Voltage Protecting Rating

https://ep-ca.mersen.com/sites/mersen_ca/files/2018-11/TT-SPN8-Effects-of-Wire-Lead-Length-on-Voltage-Protection-Rating.pdf

.

Looking at your photo again... Again the camera lens can be deceiving... It looks like there is room to mount the SPD against the side of the panel. Can you post a better picture of the panel area?

Best regards,

Jim

.

Well done Erik, installing a gfci under the counter technically violates the readily accessible rule. How can you conveniently access the the test buttons to do the monthly test required by the installation instructions??
fyi I don’t test my gfci devices. I’ve never had an inspection claim they do, I would then ask if you don’t think you need to do it why would you write the correction?

Well done Erik,

@oldelectricalinspector

Thank you!

installing a gfci under the counter technically violates the readily accessible rule.

In this particular under-sink installation it certainly would have!! Forget testing though, in the event of a GFCI event the inconvenience of emptying the space and getting on my hands and knees with a flashlight to get all the way into the back of the cabinet did not sound like anything I ever want to do. I'll happily walk upstairs and reset a breaker instead.

BTW, I did test the circuit with a plug-in GFCI tester before I blessed the whole thing, just to be sure. :)

Also, before I purchased this house the second inspector tested all the outlets in the kitchen and noted three violations. All have been fixed now but they certainly helped lower my purchase price for the home. :)

@jea48   I'm in Mexico for the winter but will look at it again when I get home and resume my basement development.  I think the First Surge claims to react within a nano second.  The amount of time it takes electricity to travel 12 inches. If I can get the unit closer, then I'll move it.  My audio equipment would be located at 50 - 75 nano seconds away from the main panel.  I'm not sure what that really means in terms of the surge protector being one nano second further away for the panel.  The risk of a major power even in my area is extremely low.  I think the surge protector will be more useful in absorbing the thousands of tiny surges caused by things like the fridge compressor turning on?  If I understand correctly how the init works and the benefits it provides.  And that's not guaranteed.  🤣

I think the First Surge claims to react within a nano second.

Ya, but what will be the clamping voltage for your installation?

.

The amount of time it takes electricity to travel 12 inches.

The length of the wires looks longer than 12 inches. Maybe at least 24 inches?

We are not talking about 60Hz electricity here.

From the above Link I provided in my last post. 01-05-2025 at 12:50pm

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W I R E L E N G T H E F F E C T O N C L A M P I N G VOLTAGE

Since surges are fast transient events, the response
of the circuit is different than that of the nominal AC
voltage at 50 or 60Hz. The rapid change in voltage
appears to the circuit as a high frequency signal
and at higher frequencies AC circuits have more
impedance. The equivalent frequency of the UL
combination wave voltage is 208.3kHz. The main
cause of this frequency response is the inductance
of the circuit. Simply adding more wire to a circuit
adds more inductance and thus higher impedance
to the high frequency surge event. Longer lead
lengths of SPDs will increase the clamping voltage
and reduce their performance in protecting downstream loads.

Just for the heck of it I pulled the panel cover off and checked the length of the wires from the SPD to the 2 pole 50 amp disconnect breaker for the SPD. About 6 inches. Yours? It doesn’t matter whether your SPD can react in a nano second or not. (Though the surge event doesn’t last much longer than that). Question is how high will the voltage rise before the voltage is clamped? I guess I haven’t done a good enough job of getting that across to you. My bad...

If it wouldn’t be a problem would you email this thread to your Son-in Law and get his opinion? You said he is a Master Electrician. That tells me he doesn’t wire houses for a living. He’s involved in the wiring of Commercial and Industrial facilities. Good chance he runs jobs...

.

Two years ago, we spent $10k with a licensed electrical contractor to get our aging yet still safe and working electrical panel replaced. This included getting the Power Company to change out the feed from the pole mounted Transformer. 

I had already ran two dedicated 20A lines into my living room. A 10AWG stranded line for all the audio crap and 12AWG Romex (solid core) line for the TV and computer crap including the Streamer. No more lights dancing in the living when the Subs kicked in or or noise/hum issues. Old or new Service Panel.

No sonic improvement of course over the old box which should signs of "yellowing" on the bus bars.

Living in Phoenix, the box in mounted outdoors and they did include a whole home surge protector. Funny thing was. When the Inspector came and saw how I'd layed out the two dedicated lines throughout my garage on the floor. He had a good laugh. In his words. This look like crap but it's all legal. I'd installed a junction box insode the garage and fed the two 20 A lines into it and then via flexible Armoured Cable, ran H,N,GND wires inside the one conduit while the other was 12-2 Romex inside flex armoured conduit.

Yeah, I could have just bought a PS Audio P20 for that kinda money but this minimizes any future risk and now my service also has been upgraded to a 200A service.

Came in handy when we installed an electric 220VAC dryer. I had them put a breaker in for future use. I had to punch a new hole in the top of the box and run a bit of conduit out into the garage. 

I had already ran two dedicated 20A lines into my living room. A 10AWG stranded line for all the audio crap and 12AWG Romex (solid core) line for the TV and computer crap including the Streamer.

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I’d installed a junction box inside the garage and fed the two 20 A lines into it and then via flexible Armored Cable, ran H,N,GND wires inside the one conduit

I’m not a fan of stranded wire for feeding audio equipment. I would of used solid #10 wire.

How are the H,N,Grd pulled in the conduit? Just loosely, randomly? Best practices, (for feeding Audio/Video equipment), is to twist the Hot and Neutral conductors together the entire length of the conduit. Pull, install, the insulated EGC (Equipment Grounding Conductor) straight along side the twisted pair in the conduit. Good chance you would have a lower noise floor than you have now.

Actual Lab testing:

Scroll down to page 13.

AC Magnetic Field Strengths from Different Wiring Types

AC current flowing through a conductor will create an AC magnetic field along the entire length of
the wire, the magnitude of which will vary in proportion to the amount of current. This field may
inductively couple noise voltage to signal wires running parallel, which can result in hum and buzz.
The longer the run of these parallel wires, the greater the inductively coupled noise voltage will be

Also the loosely, randomly, installed H & N current carrying conductors will induce a voltage/noise onto the EGC.

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An Overview of Audio System Grounding & Interfacing

Read page 16. Pages 31 thru 36.

Note the chart on page 35. The worst case is H, N & EGC conductors pulled loosely, randomly, in a conduit. Best is the H & N twisted together with the EGC pulled straight along side the twisted pair.

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