To those with multiple tables/arms/cartridges
This way :-), anyway my client does. The photo was taken before cartridges were mounted, on the SME 312S is a Clearaudio Goldfinger Statement V2, on the Moerch is a Koetsu Blue Lace Signature and on the Graham is a Ortofon MC Anna. This currently feeds into a AMR PH77, which is to be upgraded shortly with three Olympia PX phono preamps. GrooveMaster Custom Good Listening Peter |
"Is this the way most of you with multiple cartridges/arms listen?" Who is going to be the wise guy who says, "No. I listen to music, not equipment?" :-) I guess I just did! Actually, for LPs that are on the cool side, I use my warmer-balanced Grado Sonata. For LPs that are on the warmer side, I use my cooler-balanced Shelter 501 Mk. II. That's about it! -Bob |
Differences ... I had Arms for Monday/Wednesday/Friday/Sunday I had Arms for Tuesday/Thursday/Saturday I had Arms for Winter/Spring/Summer/Autumn I had Arms for Reissues/Originals I had Arms for Direct Drive/Rim Drive/Belt Drive I had Arms for 2k carts/5k carts/10k carts/20k carts I had Arms for Turntables I even didn't buy and one day... there I heard differences |
Anyway he uses one system to listen to instrumental jazz, another for classical, and a third for vocals.I've heard this before.......and also the Hesson method of 'bright' and 'warm' cartridges balancing 'warm' and bright' LPs. These don't seem to work that well for me as after I have decided that a 'full-bodied' cartridge like say the Fidelity Research FR-6SE is great for my 'bright' sounding LPs......when I switch to a more neutral cartridge directly after listening to this combination........I hear nuances that escaped the previous cartridge and re-listen to that 'bright' LP all over again. I think that really good cartridges (and arms) are better than just 'tone-controls'. They give one the ability to discover differences in presentation without changing speakers, amplification or rooms? Then again there are folk who have different rooms, speakers and systems :-) |
'For more than 30 years I had only one turntable,one arm and one cartridge...' and than become member of this forum. I assume nobody would own more cars than just one if there were no neighbours with more than one. Besides there are many diseases which are contagious. In my case however I was straightaway infected with the tonearm sickness. I assume that I have some natural resistance against TT's disease which 'explains' the story above but with the added curious result that I owned 12 tonearms and still just one turntable. But on this one I installed two tonearms with, stupid me, fast headshells. Than with my participation in the MM thread I also learned to hunt for the 'carts of the month' on ebay such that in no time I become collector with more than 30 carts. Changing those in fast headshells + Basis Exclusive phono-pre which need to be opened for each sdjustment caused me at last to buy an second TT on which I installed my 'old love' the FR-64s. Actually it was Henry who 'caused' this change because he asked the question: ''why don't you use your FR-64?'' Henry obviously like to question many things but this thread of his has no sense whatever. We all know that there are no rational answers to those 'why' questions. So we are, so to speak, forced to invent whatever reasons to justify what we have done. How is one supposed to do that without tell tales? The rest of us than need to pretend not only to understand what other have done but also to feel sympathy and/or empathy for the guy in question and hope for some kindness in return. Considering 'some' anymosity between 'some' members I am very sceptical about this thread (grin). |
I have 7 turntables set up ready to roll and many others in house. Some perfect classics (idlers, idler plus belt, direct drive) as well as new state of the art. With all those, I end up using the most neutral, quiet belt drive table as on a wide variety of records it just shows more, has more dynamics, exaggerates nothing, just delivers what is on the record. In the end, when you have a very low distortion device with extreme speed stability it just is more satisfying than more colored turntables, as alluring as it seems (before you do it) to have a "real warm table" for "easy listening" and others with other colorations. Colorations mean distortion is covering up true detail, and even on less than the best records, that gets old. |
I have 3 turntables up and "running" at all times and own 5 total, if you count the broken TT101 I just bought. I use a highly modified Lenco for MM cartridges and the two others for various low output cartridges. The Lenco set-up feeds a tube MM phono stage, and the other two feed the phono section of my Atma MP1 full-function preamp. I have no idea why I do this, or how my audio life got so complicated. I am kind of like the derelict in Syntax's cartoon, except that this obsession did not make me poor. I guess I started out with an interest in learning for myself how turntables per se affect sound. I've also had some fun restoring or overseeing the restoration of some excellent vintage turntables, in the bargain. Apparently my odyssey was a waste of time and money. Omsed has all the answers. Still, it's been fun, and I think I'm done. |
Dear Henry, First thing first. Seneca said that man is a rational animal. Since the Greek we use ,uh, 'metalic analogy' to describe 'man': iron strong, honest as gold,etc. So when John whom we described as 'honest as gold' robs a bank or seduces the wife of his best friend we feel ashamed for our judgment and state something like:'who would believe such a thing of John?' So either our analogy is wrong or we overlook the function of time. I, for example, was 'iron strong' but some time ago. At present I get serious problems with my back every time I need to adjust my tonearm/cart combo. So, I think, we need to correct Seneca slightly:' being rational is fine but not all the time.' How much time one wants to be, uh, 'not rational' will depend...similary to our system composition. Bulding blocks is a different philosophy than 'synergy'. Because of you I installed an second system in my bedroom with SP-10 + FR-64 + 12 headshells in order to be able to change and test carts in an easy way. The whole 'composition' is on my (former)writing desk but the importand thing is that there is also a chair in front.My intention was to select carts in my second system for my main system. But playing with carts and headshells become also a kind of sickness such that I spend day and night in my bedroom. I could rent my living room with my main system and earn some extra money for my hobby. So to speak , that is. In my main system I have Kuzma Stabi Reference with the Triplanar on its own (Kuzma 'base'=700 euro) and the Reed 2A , 12'' on its own arm pod. This arm pod btw was installed before the 'Copernican revolution' (sorry). I have no idea why the (MC) carts with low compliance are produced but for those I use my Reed 2a with 27 g eff. mass. 'All' other carts I use with the Triplanar. Now I would never state that I am as 'honest as gold' but to be honest I need to confess that the only carts which are 'promoted' from the bedroom to the living room are LOMC's. I hope you can forgive me such a kind of deviation ? Those are are at present: Miyabi Standard, Magic Diamond, Benz LP s(mr) and Kiseki Goldspot. Kiseki I use for the string instruments, Miyabi for the vocals, the LP s and Magic Diamond for the rest. My tastes (remember?)are classical- and folk music. |
To Halcro, arms and cartridges outnumber the turntables. Yet it boils down to only using 2 cartridges on 2 identical arms on my favorite turntable: a stereo and mono version of the same cart. That cartridge was chosen as it the most linear (I measure and nearly all mc carts have rises in the top end) and most natural sounding to me, while still retaining real detail. |
3 tables, 4 arms, 5-6 cartridges. Now that I have 2 arms with detachable headshells, I hope I will get to hear all the cartridges in a more regular rotation. One arm has mono cartridge. The rest are all stereo MCs. I think while some set up is better than other at certain type of musics, in general they can play wide variety of music well so just a different flavor depending on my mood. Thinking about adding an MM or MI just to have something different and wider palette to choose from. 2 phono with 3 inputs available so next project is to add more phono inputs, I think. |
I use a Manley Steelhead which has 3 phono inputs and one line input that I run a Simaudio LP5.3 into, all running into a Musical Fidelity M3 Nuvista which also has a phono input to get 5 phono inputs available through my system. My custom Lenco has 2 arms, my Transrotor Fat Bob has 2 arms and my Sony PS-x65 runs into the M3 phono input. the Steelhead has switchable loading on the front panel, so its easy to load each cartridge without opening the box. And 3 or my arms have replaceable headshells, so its pretty easy to get a large combination of cartridges playing with little down time between. Which one I use is random. |
I need to confess that the only carts which are 'promoted' from the bedroom to the living room are LOMC's. I hope you can forgive me such a kind of deviation ?Dear Nikola, Of course you're forgiven :-) I still enjoy the Dyna XV-1s and the Fidelity Research FR-7f and the ZYX UNIverse on both my tables in a multitude of arms. There's just something that MM cartridges like the Signet TK-7LCa, the AT13Ea/155Lc Mongrel that the Professor(Timeltel) invented and the Garrott P77/JicoSAS do that no LOMC cartridge I have heard can match? |
Dear Henry, There are collectors and 'selectors' of carts. I belong to the last category. There is no way to know a priori how a cart we just bought will perform. The attractive aspect of the MM carts is their price which make it possible to inspect and test many of them. To do the same with the MC carts is probably only possible for the rich among us. You own 30 + carts and ditto headshells. This is confusing to me because I thought that you are 'selective' reg. carts of both kinds. This should imply a ranking by which the primary differentiation is between 'better'- and 'lesser' one. The case in my case is that I never listen to the 'lesser one' after I made my ranking. 'Why should I?' is my point. So my guess is that you become collector while starting as selector? |
Assuming one has limited resources, as I do, isn't it likely that one thoughtfully chosen component will provide more musical pleasure (however one defines that) than two or more (necessarily) compromised components? I audition different components when I have the opportunity. If I hear one that's an upgrade I acquire it when I can afford to. Typically, I'll sell the existing component to help fund the new one. The idea of permanently maintaining multiple arms and cartridges (or preamps, or...) isn't even remotely tempting. Why or when would I ever choose to listen to the inferior ones? Comparing different flavors of distortion really doesn't interest me. I suppose I'm not a true audiophile. :-( |
Why or when would I ever choose to listen to the inferior ones? Different presentations, different perspectives, equally valid and not necessarily inferior. Audio, especially vinyl audio, is an exercise in aesthetics, not epistemology. I'm always surprised and mildly amused by those who seem to define it as a mission to find the one truth. I view my multiple tables, tonearms, cartridges like Kurosowa viewed reality in Rashamon: a matter of perspective, each one compelling on its own terms. Part of the fun is working with the various combinations until they realize their own coherency, they're own flawed perfection, their own best character. Then they speak on their own terms and I'm convinced by their narratives. |
Dear Doug, Your conclusion ( ''I'm not a true audiophile'') does not follow from any of your statements. You are what I called 'selector'. The most of us have limited means and need to be very careful with our choices. So we select those components which we consider to be better and (re) sell those which are lesser. Reselling some of our gear in order to buy some other is the only way possible in such circumstances. But this is at the same time the only way to improve our system. That is how a true audiophile acts I would think. |
Multiple tables, arms, cartridges, is like when you go to live classical performance, should it be at Musikverien, Carnegie hall, Boston Symphony hall? Which orchestra, Berlin, Vienna, NY, Chicago etc etc, which conductor? You could try to search for one absolutely best combination for all things. However, my feeling is that one absolutely best combination is unlikely to be absolutely best at everything. Each hall, each orchestra, each conductor has their own acoustic, their own characteristic. One may be better at certain thing in absolute term but it does mean that other does not have anything good or interesting to contribute. It is not as fruitful to have multiple digital sources but I think top notch analogue front end can offer equally valid but rather different presentation so why not have a few! |
Regards, Halcro (Suteetat, nicely written): If it is accepted that taste is developed and sustained through exposure to a variety of musical forms or presentations, then it might subsequently be proposed that taste is an integral element in the selection of both composition and supporting gear. If objective evaluation can define value, it might also be said the consequence is an exclusivist mentality and a rigid hierarchy of the acceptable. Some would find such a definition of rewarding experience unnecessarily restrictive. Others maintain that if what is heard does not reflect the intent of the composer then the result is an artificial construct, a facsimile and thereby of diminished value. This may be seen as a failure to reproduce technically accurate aspects of audible response or, contrarily, an openness to a variety of experience as desired by the particular expectations of the individual. Who would be so bold as to state the reproduction of recorded music in the home is exclusively a scientific demonstration, or that it is solely an expression of art? There are those who are to be admired for developing their systems to the apex of refinement, listeners who exhibit a marvelous degree of discrimination. Others, of acknowledged (or self-proclaimed) discernment, might choose from the menu of available cartridges a variety of presentational aspects. If familiarity with a number of carts illustrates the qualities of each, the differences either subtle or bold, and assuming an acceptable level of performance of each, then friend Henry, I'm happy to join you in enjoying a smorgasbord of carts. Cliff's Notes: There are favorite carts, of which I wish to continue to enjoy an appreciation of their particular qualities. Peace, |
I view my multiple tables, tonearms, cartridges like Kurosowa viewed reality in Rashamon: a matter of perspective, each one compelling on its own terms. Part of the fun is working with the various combinations until they realize their own coherency, they're own flawed perfection, their own best character. Then they speak on their own terms and I'm convinced by their narratives.So beautifully put Wrm57. I think the mistake is to believe that there is one 'right' presentation to audio? As Suteetat so aptly points out........there is no one 'right' presentation to 'live' music? I would like the ability to switch in a valve preamp and/or amp to replace the solid state ones in my system from time to time? I would like the ability to move in some electrostatic speakers or horns from time to time to replace my dynamic ones? But these substitutions are rather impractical for me and many others I presume? The differences in 'presentation' these substitutions make on the same source material.......lead to an enlightenment or deeper appreciation of the possibilities in this wonderful hobby of ours. With but one cartridge and tonearm......we must accept the benefits and beauty but at the same time....the limitations and deficiencies. Much as we do with our wives or partners :-) A collection of cartridges may be somewhat analogous to keeping a harem? |
Dear Nikola, Of course you are right. Of the 30+ cartridges I own......my 'favourites' rise to the top and there is little play time for those 'lesser' samples. So....like you.....I will sell off eventually, many of those which add little to my appreciation of my vinyl collection. That will still leave me with over a dozen or so wonderful, wonderful cartridges. And think of the extended life given to the styli when their playtimes are evenly distributed? :-) |
The idea of permanently maintaining multiple arms and cartridges (or preamps, or...) isn't even remotely tempting. Why or when would I ever choose to listen to the inferior ones? Comparing different flavors of distortion really doesn't interest me. Audiophiles want to talk about Audio, not about Music.... or there is another sentence "The difference between Men and Boys is the price of their Toys" Anyway, everyone has his own preferences and priorities, musical emotion can be also served via MP3 or Car Radio, the human brain works different. Interestingly, EVERYONE is able to detect good sound even with totally unknown hardware, you can see that in High End Shows. The remarkable time frame is a few seconds later when everyone tries to rate something for himself (...too big, too expensive, too cheap, ugly, too black, too shiny or whatever) this is an individual decision. When you ask a group of listeners after that demo, you will hardly find a common opinion, 4 audiophiles, 5 opinions... Analog is in a way pure precision and knowledge, some Designers made a better product than others because they know the way of what-is-responsible-for-what.... does that mean, after a while you can find the one and only solution? No. But you can narrow it when you understand what you hear, then the rest of your System is made for that anyway. The most impressive Systems I listened to in the last 15 years (about 5) were different, some with Electrostats, Horns, Dynamic speakers, some with tube amps, Transistor amps, various turntables, Arms and cartridges ... but in a way they all had something in common: The owners were deep in records, they all had an impressive background knowledge and all their components were done right in a way ....Independent from price. Thanks for the reminder, when I go back to those situations, all had 1 Table, 1 Cart, 1 Arm, 1 Phonostage....I am working on it still... |
Dear Syntax, This is rather an very sceptical few. Besides I don't believe that we all mean the same with the general expression 'audiophile'. It may mean whatever one like. I am not sure if I am 'deep in (the) records' but well sure that my 'background knowledge' is not impressive. Should I then give up this hobby according to you? I see that you yourself also think not to satisfy those conditions which you mentioned so do you intend to give up this hobby as well? As far as I know it is only possible for one single Catholic to become the pope. So we know in advance that some of the others may become cardinals at best. But if there is no such thing as 'the best cart' or 'the best' whatever how should we know who is the 'best analogist'? I see you are (still) working on this ... We hope to hear from you when you think that you are 'there'. |
I don't know what an audiophile is supposed to be. In an ideal world where all recordings are made equal and there are no evil or incompetent recording label/studio/engineer, all recordings are made with absolute transparency and fidelity, honest to the musician's sound, then I could see myself with single source, single system that is totally transparent and have absolutely no sonic signature of its own and let the recordings do all the speaking and singing! Unfortunately I am not in that world. There are some recordings that will sound great in absolutely transparent system. On the other hand, there are some great music on recordings that will just rear its ugly head when you expose it ruthlessly. I don't know of any cartridge/arm/table combination that can ruthlesly reveal all the glory of well made record but at the same time, forgiving the less than perfect recording that are great music wise. Some recording can benefit from a little bit more warmth, has piercing treble that can benefit from a bit more roll off top. Some are so good that you don't want any coloration from the equipment to interfere. I suppose, if I only care about the sound, I can just toss the bad recordings away and end up listening to a few selected sonic spectacular recording through my single source system. However, I want to listen to great music and sometimes, some of those recordings may benefit from slightly different coloration/presentation by different setup. |
I don't believe any of us who enjoys multiple turntables/arms/cartridges has equated that with 'audiophilia'.....nor has any of them here, proclaimed this peccadillo as a means to 'superior sound'? The only one who has brought this into discussion is Syntax who I think is being slightly self deprecating if you view his published 'system'? To reach the Nirvana of : The most impressive Systems I listened to in the last 15 yearsHe only has to sell 2 of his 3 turntables, 2 of his 3 phono-stages, 2 of his 3 amps, 2 of his 3 arms plus his 2 extra armwands and 7 of his 8 cartridges? Perhaps that is what he meant by I am working on it still...:-) |
However, I want to listen to great music and sometimes, some of those recordings may benefit from slightly different coloration/presentation by different setup.. When we will follow that idea we have to look into the Past, too. Most ratings from the top records (printed in books) Decca/London, Living Stereo, Mercury were written in the early 90's. And with what combination? Mainly with Linn LP12, a highly colored table, with real weak abilities in the higher and lower frequencies, a midrange pusher. When we think about those ratings seriously we have to say (or I say that) nearly all ratings need to be rewritten because some ratings in Recording, Reproduction, Soundstage, color of tone have serious different results today. Don't get me wrong, a top record is still a top record but a lot with 12/10/14 rating from max. 20/20/20 are seriously better than that. On the other side, vinyl today from a digital mixing desk, without any naturalness, do you need a 30k Phonostage, 10k cart for that? I don't think so, the only goal is maybe finding something which doesn't make you cry and that's it. But that is my opinion about. |
He only has to sell 2 of his 3 turntables, 2 of his 3 phono-stages, 2 of his 3 amps, 2 of his 3 arms plus his 2 extra armwands and 7 of his 8 cartridges? Yes, right. For about 8 months now I am down to 1 Table, more or less 1 Arm (FR-66s, I don't want sell the 64s, that Arm beat all others incl. the last survivor, Graham Phantom supreme which is sold now), more or less to 2 cartridges (Ikeda & Helikon mono), Omnigon Pre (but that was a custom made order, can't be compared to regular units) and modified ML2.1. The other stuff is in boxes, in a way I am too lazy to sell, but who knows, sooner or later I will start some ads... |
the world of an audiophile with many tables/arms/carts/SUTs/phono PREs looks a bit confusing on a first glance. Looking at one's own audiophile history it is an up and down, looking for special combinations - like I did when searching the right partner for my Neumann DST 62 (from the cart to the tonearm...), enlarging the collection to 18 tonearms for a while and also "Reducing to the Max" to now 12 really necessary tonearms! It will change in a week when a new design will arrive at my house. Most of my designs are vintage or old school designs, some are Mono only with really good pure (old, not recycled copper with perfect isolations - which makes a difference when you are offered some), four arms are rewired by Ikeda silver litz. Is it worth doing so? I think YES! I am enjoying, also testing many combinations in situ, not listening at many different occasions with different systems. I prefer testing units in my own world but also exchanging ideas with some well experienced friends, also in front of my system. It provides me with some insights. I have learned you need to exchange with good personalities, not with the many big bang guys who have listened everywhere telling stories from their memories. Neverheless everyone should find his way and enjoy multiple combinations. The biggest problem is space. And you need it for using many tables etc. The next problem is you need dedicated lines. If a system becomes too complex you may loose quality. I am using now two lines with two special preamps running to my amps. Also the different phono stages should be integrated properly. This is quite a unique adventure and you don't need them all at one time. I for myself could not live with one phono pre only. In the end one may raise the question whether the testing will come to an end one day? I guess not. Maybe some of the favourites may survive. And for sure the units will become less one day. I just decided separating from one of my most dedicated tables as well as of a very rare R2R. Testing doesn't mean listening to one record all the time. I know people who are running around with a set of three test records looking for the least distorted place on earth. This is not my world. I am enjoying quite a good collection of Jazz and Rock vinyl pressings. Multiple analogue tools do support my listening experience. That's all... |
Dear Raul, I supposed one day when I find a combination of cartridge/tonearm/table that is superior to everything else that listening to other combination does not derive any pleasure anymore, I will be down to one setup only as well. At this moment, I would say Lyra Atlas is overall the best cartridge I have so far but not much better than Air Tight or Koetsu in every way and I still enjoy listening to those 2 cartridges very much as well. Could I live with just the Lyra, sure but why should I deprive myself of Air Tight or Koetsu when logistically it is still easy to keep both of them around. I made a compromised when I bought my piano. I only have one, a Grotrian. If I have a big house and a lot more money, I would not mind having a Steingraeber, Fazioli or Bosendorfer as well since they all sound different, very different feel and touch when you play them but since I only have room for one, Grotrian it is. I would not mind having a Maggie 20.7 or Martin Logan CLX just for variety but logistically I cannot have them so I settle for one pair of speakers only. Luckily I have enough room for a few turntables, arms and cartridges so until I find the ONE, I'll settle for the few that I have :) |
If I were limited to only one arm.....I too would choose the FR-66s. A better arm for low-compliance LOMC cartridges I have never heard. And it is also nearly as good with high-compliance MM/MI cartridges. However...the Continuum Copperhead is slightly better with MMs whilst the SAEC WE-8000/ST can also be amazing with some MMs. Having read your passionate descriptions of the Lyras (particularly the Titan i and Olympos)...and also seeing your collection of FR-7 cartridges.....you must forgive me for being sceptical about your intent to "start some ads"? Can you post some more shots of the Apolyt turntable Syntax? This one looks very impressive? |
The purist: 'I own just one TT, one tonearm and one cart but those are the best there are'. We know the type from the high school. They were only interested in the most beautiful girl at school and nobody else. No wonder they had a miserable youth. The (big) spender:' Why I own so many turntables, arms and carts? I would own even more if I could afford'. The rest: 'All the excuses I mentioned I invented for my wife already.' |
