I bought an older pair of Vandersteen 2Ce and did not like them. Found out one woofer was crackling (what I did not like was poor tweeter and midrange). I went onto the Vandersteen forum to see if changing a component or two would better the sound than 25 year old speakers. In 2022 almost anyones speakers sound better than 25 year old Vandersteen technology.
The replies raised my eyebrows. I was just wondering if anyone else has had any experience with that forum and did they find it cult-like or is it just me?
I have no issue with the OP and Richard didn't either. Richard has zero problem with anyone who wants to change his designs by installing other drivers or guys who want to rip the speakers down and take off teh socks and poles and paint them black etc...
He was very specific about that as folks own them and can do whatever they want to with them. The issue I have is when folks modify someones design, you shouldn't start posting how you don't like them etc.. if you do, please let people know that they aren't really a Vandersteen speaker (or add any other product) anymore. I feel that's fair.
You just got very defensive quickly when I told you he was the designer and you kept asking who the engineer was. That was answered prior and you just went on a rant about the designer not being an engineer.
Other posters from that board have already make salient points about your posting. We did try to help you as we try to help everyone (Richard included) and you wanted nothing of it or you would have gone to the other threads where all your questions had already been asked and answered. You didn't come off as genuine as all you kept posted about was an associates degree in engineering (although I believe you made it seem like it was a 4 year degree) adn then telling us all more than a couple of times how you are a spine surgeon. You then always say how that doesn't matter. I COMPLETELY agree with you. It DOESN'T....
You are the first person that's ever had a post taken down and also the first to be banned. If you were serious about your questions and really wanted help getting your very old and used speakers into true Vandersteen working order (to save the time and phase correctness that we Vandersteen owners loves and why we come off as cultish), you would have done that, but as I said, you didn't even try to take the kind help that we all tried to share.
I'm not surprised that you immediately came to Audiogon to try and get folks to support you. I hope and pray that you are as honorable as you claim and tell anyone looking to buy yoru speakers that you share the true condition of the speakers and don't take advantage of someone the way you may or may not have been taken advantage of (you did overpay for them by a lot and when Richard was honest with you, that's when tenor of your posts changed. I've known Richard since the early 80's and he's as honest as it gets in this business and he's also very direct. It does turn off many folks, but I personally love that about him. I wish more in audio were as honest as he is.
I'm glad you found a pair of B&W and I honestly hope you paid a fair price and live with them forever. IT's all about the music and having fun with it.
I've owned B&W 802 Matrix Series 3 for 20 some years. Always wanted Wilson Watt Puppies but after reading this article a lot of the engineering Richard Vandersteen did in the 70's and 80's seems to indicate that he was ahead of the times. Listening to the "brightness" of the B&W's or Wilson's sounds sweet but my goal is to hear the same sound as produced in the studio. From an engineering standpoint Richard has addressed many of the engineering issues that cloud sound reproduction. I've listened to Vandersteen's a little bit and still have not decided on Vandersteen Quatro Wood CT's or Wilson Watt Puppies.
This is because THD has nothing to do with ’timing errors’; but I really didn’t know what the poster meant by that, so I asked for clarification.
Richard has posted on that forum that amps with zero feedback have less timing errors. But what is meant by that was not defined. Anyone familiar with filter theory knows that phase shift affects the amplifier at its extremes of bandwidth since essentially the stray capacitance and the like that rolls off the bandwidth is acting as a filter, usually one of 6dB/octave. If you look at the input vs the output of the amp on an oscilloscope, the output will appear to be delayed in the region of the phase shift. Is this what Richard was talking about?
I find it really odd that I got suspended on that account but maybe it was something else; however the email I got seemed to suggest that my question was the problem.
Guys, the Vandersteen forums are only for Vandersteen owners. Richard set the forums up that way as a replacement for the 'ask Richard' section. There are many set up threads, music threads, what components marry well with Vandersteen's etc... There are other manufacturers who have tried posting there and they too have been blocked from posting, but can read. This has NOTHING to do with Ralph, who even Richard said, makes nice gear and I know it plays great with Vandersteen speakers.
Ralph was a great poster who shared info about his gear. A few of the guys on the forum own Ralph's gear and love it. I'm not an engineer, nor do I pretend to be one. I do love music (gear too) and am blessed to get to hear a ton of stuff.
@ctsoonerfeel free to delete my account and all my posts over at the Vandersteen forum - I don't see a way I can do it myself. @atmaspherehas always been genuinely additive to the discussions. If the forum is going to devolve to fanboys constantly posting how everyone should upgrade to the Quatros and Richard's word shall not be questioned, then I'm out.
Board Rules state “the only true rule is to not be an antagonist.”
Look, anyone can run their forum however they see fit. I don’t begrudge that. But we all know the quality of the forums are directly proportional to the quality of the contributions. Not the quantity of contributions. Not shilling. Not trolling. Not advertising. Not antagonizing. Not hype. Not hyperbole.
Our community is becoming short on insights, experience, expertise and engagement. There are still a few trusted resources around, @audioconnectionbeing one. @atmaspherebeing another. I like to hear their voices (before, like the names many of us can still recall, disengage, die, or become bored attempting to answer the same questions over and over). We kinda need to hear their voices.
Board Rules state “the only true rule is to not be an antagonist.”
Me glancing at mirror… 😅
@nrenter@rpelusolet’s not jump the gun here.
we all share the hobby and love.
And I would not be surprised if Ralph gets unbanned.
It is not like he is spruicking his gear in an underhanded way there, and while most Vandy owners like more traditional topologies, I know at least a few are interested in Class-D.
Our community is becoming short on insights, experience, expertise and engagement. There are still a few trusted resources around, @audioconnection being one. @atmasphere being another. I like to hear their voices (before, like the names many of us can still recall, disengage, die, or become bored attempting to answer the same questions over and over). We kinda need to hear their voices.
Silence at your own peril.
Well put. In an era of internet warriors and “experts” it is good to have the inputs of true experts in their fields.
Let’s let this play out and maintain some calm…
Ralph and Pete are both on the gentlemanly end of the spectrum, let’s give it some time.
If anyone is to blame, it is I. (-As Jane Hathaway would have said).😏
I invited Ralph to join in a thread to discuss time/phase delay in his new Class D amps, because I don’t have the knowledge or verbal/written ability to either make or rubut any questions regarding said topic.
I felt having the designer say, in his own words, what he has done or believes, would be the most direct way of addressing the issue.
Yes, the forum says you have to own Vandersteen, and I have no issue with that. But, when it comes down to providing information on a subject that is directly related to the Vandersteen Time/Phase issue, I think it wise to allow other designers to have a say, if only in the interest of ’fair play’. Yes, Mr. V. is footing the hosting bill, but to exclude differing or questioning opinions, based on a forum technicality, seems to lessen the benefits of discourse.-Especially, considering that Ralph conducted himself properly.
gdnrbob +1 FWIW I didn't notice that the forum was for Vandersteen owners only!
Helping with personal invite from Bob, was sort of gentlemanly.
And Bob’s reaching out was in an honest spirit.
There is a bit of bias against Class-D (if you see what I did there.) So it is good for those interested in Class-D to hear other perspectives, and we do not have a lot of Class-D amps that one might consider worth investigating.
So in my mind you acted honourably.
And @ctsooneris a fine fellow as well, so it was a bit perplexing to see.
It is 41C here today and 42C is scheduled for the morrow, Body temp is 37C.
So the extra heat from the tubes, is at least one reason, that I am thinking about Class-D.
I am an aerospace engineer. My dad was an audiophile for decades. He designed and built his own amps, preamps, feedback loop subwoofer (circa 60's), and even designed and built an electronic starter for cars in 1973-4. Because of this background I have always looked at specs. Over time I started getting away from the engineering and started listening to the music. This can be good and bad. Everyone has a sound they like, hence all the variations of sound from manufacturers. However, if the goal is to repeat the sound as it was produced then you can't turn away from the engineering/science. I've now come full circle; I will look at specs then listen but if the specs are bad I won't.
I own a pair of B&W 802 D3 Matrix for over 20 years. Been very happy with them. My goal was not to color the music. I liked these speakers because of their "newer design" stiff individual boxes for woofer, mid, and tweeter so as not to color the sound. I'm in the market for new speakers now. I have always been impressed with the sound of Wilson WATT Puppies, ignoring the specs, they sound brilliant. This could be due to men not having as good capability to hear highs.
Again, I want no coloration, my definition of my goal as an audiophile. When reading about speaker design, enclosures/reflections, baffles, cross-overs, and cone distortion I saw few that met my goal, no distortion. Then I read this article SoundStage-Richard-Vandersteen.pdf (troelsgravesen.dk)
I've read your above comments, thinking Vandersteen people are cult like, so maybe you will consider me as another "drinking the Kool-Aid." Again, I don't own a pair of Vandersteen's I read the article regarding his research and reasoning.
If your goal is to have speakers that reproduce the sound, then they should be time and phase correct; I had to consult an expert in electronic cross over theory. His statement is that you can't simply change the polarity + to - to correct for phase. I think Richard Vandersteen created his first speak, with multi-cabinet enclosures and minimal baffles in the 70's. In the 70's all speak designs, except of V, had one enclosure with a huge baffle which creates distortion. He even looked at when the speaker cone is on the return, there is reflection (distortion) due to speaker structure, to create minimal distortion.
When I looked at the Wilson Watt-Puppies plots, phase correctness, ect, I was at best disappointed.
From an engineering standard V are better. It's up to you if you like the sound.
I bought my Vandersteen 5A’s in New Jersey and the seller set them up beautifully. When I moved to Arizona and took the speakers and the same components, they didn’t sound the way I remembered. Richard himself called and offered to help set the speakers up over the phone with some of my tools. The result is music that sounds real...with space and depth. ...it took a couple of days and call backs, but was a wonderful experience. I always learn from the Vandersteen website....a great place to read and reflect
@stringreen I’m guessing you got your 5a’s from John Rutan. I bought my first pair of Vandersteen 3a Signatures (used) last year and the Vandersteen Forum has been a great, welcoming place to get advice. Between the forum and Audio Connection, I was able to tweak placement and setup to the point where my system has never sounded better. Great people and Richard’s an active participant too.
Got my first Treo';s from Johnny and now have Quatro's. I was a huge fan for many years after hearing the 2's and meeting Richard in 1983, They were set up perfectly and it was at Stereo Unlimited in SD (Navy time).
I then went to buy a pair of 2's in RI in the early 90's when I could afford them, but the dealer liked ProAc better and those were set up correctly and the STeen's weren't. I disliked them at that point for that reason, but didn't realize it.
I left that store with 3500 ProAc's instead and built from there. Then when I wanted new speakers, I went to Rutans to get the ProAc's as he was the closest dealer. He made me (and my family) listen to Treo's. We all were floored and it was a no brainer. I was hooked. Still am. As Richard has said the speakers will measure well, but from there he can tweet and make them sound better and better. He's kept doing that for so many years now and those of us who deal with his company know how personally he takes each speaker and his support is as good as anyone's can be. It's not a cult as much as Wilson isn't a cult or Magico isn't........
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